So Bush wants to conserve? Brazil fights oil prices with alcohol

[othermeans]

If he really wants us to conserve take a look at Brazil

http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20051007/wl_csm/oflex_1


Regular car engines will run fine on a 10 percent blend of alcohol and gasoline. But by using computer sensors that adjust to whatever mix is in the tank, flex car engines run on either ethanol, gasoline, or any combination of the two. And they have been roaring out of dealerships here since Volkswagen sold the first TotalFlex Golf in March 2003.

Today, flex cars are outselling traditional gasoline models. In August, 62 percent of new cars sold were flex, according to industry numbers. "Demand has been unbelievable," says Barry Engle, the new president of Ford Brasil. "I am hard-pressed to think of any other technology that has been such a success so quickly."

"There is something curious that we are just starting to see," says Alfred Szwarc, an ethanol consultant with Sao Paulo's sugar cane association. "Gasoline powered cars lose more of their value than flex cars. People know that oil is finite and that it is going to get more and more expensive. They think that a gasoline-powered car is going to be more difficult to sell. They see flex cars as the car of the future."

[msongs]

1. ethanol is more expensive, but will reduce oil consumption.

based on various articles I have read, the value of ethanol is lower than gasoline (costs per energy unity are higher for ethanol) but eliminating oil use will have a positive effect in that area.

claims that ethanol will save everyone money are not accurate I think.

unless we can get rid of welfare price supports for some farmers maybe.

Msongs
www.msongs.com/clark2008.htm

[lectrobyte]

4. It may be more expensive now, but I suspect we are going to be

able to figure out how to make alcohol more cheaply as time goes on, while oil will only become more expensive as we slide down Hubbert's peak.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

9. Yep. Eventually, fuel that you can PLANT can't be beaten.

It's the Sun, ultimately, that does the hard work. Getting it right is a matter of fine-tuning the process.

[bahrbearian]

2. So how do you heat the still's to make Ethanol ?

Old growth timber..?

[Bernardo de La Paz]

3. Account for trucking ADM corn, fertilizing it, etc. Net energy loss.

[leeroysphitz]

5. That's what I've read.

So wouldn't these "flex" engines actually use more energy at the end of the equation even while appearing to use less oil directly?

I may be ignorant of some of the facts but I've never really understood the whole ethanol phenomenon.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

8. What works in Brazil with low labor costs & using ag waste wont work here.

[lectrobyte]

15. Why not? Especially as oil seems like it can only get more and

more expensive.

[othermeans]

19. Please read this article link included Net energy loss is Bullshit

“This new study by Pimentel and Patzek is just the latest regurgitation of Pimentel's research from 1979. It is an amazing routine of mathematical gymnastics to prove a political point, one that is no longer true,” Lamberty said. “Twenty years ago their information may have been correct, but today it couldn't be more wrong. Pimentel should be taking credit for having helped create today's truly efficient ethanol production process, not using old numbers to shoot it down.”

Brian Jennings, ACE Executive Vice President, added: “Any objective analysis of ethanol's energy balance equation done in the last 20 years will verify that ethanol contains much more energy than what is used to produce it. The re-release of Pimentel's antiquated study is a misleading effort by foreign oil apologists to derail important ethanol legislation working its way through Congress.”

Some insight into Patzek's bias against ethanol can be found on his own website: http://petroleum.berkeley.edu/patzek/index.htm . Patzek spent nearly a decade working for Shell Oil Company as a researcher, consultant, and expert witness. He is the founder and current director of the UC Oil Consortium, an organization funded mainly by the oil industry to the tune of $60,000-120,000 per year, per company.

“Tad Patzek is not a disinterested third party in this debate. It shouldn't be shocking that someone with such a background in the oil industry would come out opposed to ethanol, a viable alternative to oil,” Lamberty said.

http://www.ethanol.org/PressRelease71905bhtm.htm

[leeroysphitz]

27. Thanks for the link! nt

[lectrobyte]

29. Thanks for the link, I always hear this "net energy loss" crap

and needs something to refute it. I'm all for renewables. And I have a family tradition of making "corn likker" that I'd love to see become the 21st hot job...

[othermeans]

24. Here is some interesting research articles

Here is a citation from late 2001 that states fuel prices for a gallon of ethanol would be 1.74 a gallon.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/question707.htm

Production of alcohol from sugar beets

http://www.osti.gov/energycitations/product.biblio.jsp?osti_id=6782581

[othermeans]

17. More oil company propaganda. Sure the net energy loss is there if you

only consider the end product. But what happens to the mash that is left over at the end of the process? Do you think we could use it for something else? Why sure. Cattle feed for one and I venture to guess there are a million other uses people much smarter than I could list. Plus the fact that once and for all we'll be independent not only of foreign oil but we'll be aiding the American economy by keeping most of our money here.

How much energy does it take to bring oil out of the ground, transport it to a refinery, refine it, ship it to the gas station and then be pumped out of the leaky storage tank into your car?

If alcohol is so expensive why does Brazil ship ethanol to Japan?

SAO PAULO, Brazil — While Americans fume at high gasoline prices, Carolina Rossini is the essence of Brazilian cool at the pump.

Like tens of thousands of her countrymen, she is running her zippy red Fiat on pure ethanol extracted from Brazilian sugar cane. On a recent morning in Brazil's largest city, the clear liquid was selling for less than half the price of gasoline, a sweet deal for the 26-year-old lawyer.

"You save money and you don't pollute as much," said Rossini, who paid about $18 to fill her nearly empty tank. "And it's a good thing that the product is made here."

Three decades after the first oil shock rocked its economy, Brazil has nearly shaken its dependence on foreign oil. More vulnerable than even the United States when the 1973 Middle East oil embargo sent gas prices soaring, Brazil vowed to kick its import habit. Now the country that once relied on outsiders to supply 80% of its crude is projected to be self-sufficient within a few years.

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-ethanol15jun15,0,3313642.story?track=tothtml


"Brazil's ethanol production capacity stands to allow Brazil to become the Saudi Arabia of the future. As more production capacity comes on line and as the world realizes the benefits of a cleaner and renewable fuel source (ethanol), Brazil stands ready to position itself at the top of this huge potential market. Brazil has already entered into new trade agreements with Japan to supply up to 3% of Japan's total fuel market (Japan is the second largest consumer of fuel in the world behind the US) with ethanol."

http://www.legendarywaters.com/


Remember when gas when over $1.25? They said it wasn't feasible to make alcohol. Now gas is at or near $3.00 a gallon and it's still not feasible? Please.

[othermeans]

18. Take a look at this article from the American Coalition for Ethanol

That claim is just outrageous,” said Ron Lamberty, ACE Vice President / Market Development. “The bottom line is that it takes 35,000 BTUs of energy to turn a bushel of corn into a gallon of ethanol, and that gallon of ethanol contains at least 77,000 BTUs. What kind of math is being used to turn this number into a negative?”

(snip)

http://www.ethanol.org/PressRelease71905bhtm.htm

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

20. What about sugar beets instead of corn?

Has that been tried? And would it offer any advantages?

[Selatius]

23. That extra energy is coming from the power of the sun

That's where you get 77,000 BTUs out of 35,000.

[randomelement]

11. Have a look at this then

Might be time to start thinking along other lines .....

http://www.hempcar.org/efia.shtml

It'll work, but I guess some of us would rather stay attached to the "Big Oil" teat ....

[lectrobyte]

12. Solar power seems like a good choice, but there are probably

other alternatives other than old growth forests.

[dkofos]

14. Solar

[JesterCS]

26. Use

the leftover fiber from the sucrose extraction process can be burned.

Hawaii does it for their sugar mill and creates enough energy to run their plant + sell back electricity to Maui Electric

[MrBenchley]

6. I suspect Chimpy IS fighting the energy crisis with alcohol

He's drinking and hoping his buddy God does something to lower prices before winter comes down hard on his already low approval ratings...

[BuyingThyme]

7. Yeah, didn't CHB already run this story?

[enid602]

10. Brazil

Brazil has a huge advantage in ethanol production, however in that it produces so much sugar. To say that Brazil is "fighting" high oil prices, however is somewhat misleading, as they have not imported oil on the world market in over 30 years. I just got back from Brazil and Argentina last month, and they don't understand why we are so interested in Middle East politics. There is very little Middle Eastern coverage on the news there. There is no talk of inflationary fear fueled by higher energy prices, either. Used car classified adds in Buenos Aires are not organized by make and model, but rather by the type of fuel their engines consume. Very different picture there.

[NV Whino]

13. Somewhere in this story

is a "driving under the influence" joke.
:)

[dkofos]

16. Are these engines available in the US??

[jmowreader]

21. Yeah, Ford makes them

They're called FFVs, for Flexible Fuel Vehicles, and you can tell a car has one by this little plant-looking badge on the back of the car.

IIRC it's not just the computer that has to be changed--all of the fuel lines and fuel hoses in the car have to be designed to carry alcohol, otherwise you'll rot them out.

[othermeans]

22. Engines that run on gas, gas-ethanol, natural gas or alcohol not likely

[Swamp Rat]

25. Otimo!

Super legal! Vou comprar um quando eu mudo aí. :)

[NickB79]

28. If only the US had a massive rainforest to chop down

Then we could grow fuel for our cars too! :sarcasm:

That cheap ethanol is grown at the expense of millions of acres of former rainforest that was converted to farmland, and is still being converted to farmland daily. This is progress?

I just have to ask, how many endangered species per gallon does a Brazilian car get?