Far right GOP agrees with far right DLC. Dobson's Focus on the Family.

[madfloridian]

You know you are in trouble when the far right wing of the GOP is pushing the far right wing agenda of the Democratic Party. I mean that is real trouble.

The DLC put forth warnings about not going too far to the left.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/06/AR2005100601645_pf.html

"Galston, a professor of public policy at the University of Maryland, and Kamarck, a lecturer at Harvard's Kennedy School of Government, in 1989 wrote the influential paper, "The Politics of Evasion," which helped set the stage for Clinton's presidential bid and the prominent role of the centrist Democratic Leadership Council. In some ways, the report released yesterday showed how difficult the debate is to resolve.

Their recommendations are much less specific than their detailed analysis of the difficulties facing the Democratic Party.

They suggest that Democratic presidential candidates replicate Clinton's tactics in 1992, when he broke with the party's liberal base by approving the execution of a semi-retarded prisoner, by challenging liberal icon Jesse L. Jackson and by calling for an end to welfare "as we know it."

And I am editing and adding more of the WP column because according to some I did not make my case that they were advocating moving to the right again, just like they do after every election. They don't say "move to the the right", but use center. However they are not centered with the people of the party.

The liberals' hope that Democrats can win back the presidency by drawing sharp ideological contrasts and energizing the partisan base is a fantasy that could cripple the party's efforts to return to power, according to a new study by two prominent Democratic analysts.

In the latest shot in a long-running war over the party's direction -- an argument turned more passionate after Democrat John F. Kerry's loss to President Bush last year -- two intellectuals who have been aligned with former president Bill Clinton warn that the only way back to victory is down the center.

Democrats must "admit that they cannot simply grow themselves out of their electoral dilemmas," wrote William A. Galston and Elaine C. Kamarck, in a report released yesterday. "The groups that were supposed to constitute the new Democratic majority in 2004 simply failed to materialize in sufficient number to overcome the right-center coalition of the Republican Party."

They are saying we need to move more in the direction of the people we can not beat. I disagree.

Ok, that has been discussed here a lot. Today I see a blog site from James Dobsons' focus of the family is agreeing with this and saying Democrats should listen.

http://www.family.org/cforum/news/a0038180.cfm

Liberalism doesn't win elections. That's the advice that former Clinton Domestic Policy Adviser William A. Galston and a colleague have for the Democratic Party.

Professor Galston, now a scholar at the University of Maryland, issued a report, along with former Clinton aide Elaine Kamarck, that warns Democratic National Committee Chairman Howard Dean not to look to the left to win elections.

First, Galston said, there aren't enough liberal Democrats to constitute a majority — and those who are there don't look like other Democrats or America.

Most Americans are neither far left nor far right," Dunn said, "but the Democratic Party's center of gravity of power is to the far left. Until the Democratic Party recognizes the error of its way, it will continue to lose elections to the Republican Party."

He said Galston's message to party leaders is on target. Dean's effort to mobilize liberals ignores the real problem.

"There is no 'there' there," Dunn said. "Neither the leadership, nor the groups that would follow the supposed leadership, can produce sufficient vote for them to win — except in unusual cases."

I think the battle for the party has begun. Religious groups may side with the Third Way/DLC because they are saying to go with the "gray" center on women's rights. SO you have a squeeze play from the right on the DNC and Dean, and the left squeezing back that the main issue is Iraq.

[jhain]

1. "Focus On Your Own Damn Family"

[MissMarple]

62. I see that on bumper stickers in Colorado Springs.

I wish they would take the hint, some of their families are really screwed up.

[knowbody0]

2. divide and conquer

RW plants whose sole purpose is to destroy us. i really believe this. we need to be proud to be Liberal, non judgemental constitutionists.

[MrBenchley]

3. Jeeze Louise...

Dobson's group distorted what a Democrat said, so you decided to attack Democrats.

By the way, show us where the DNC and DLC are having any sort of war, except in some people's febrile imagination.

[madfloridian]

4. The DLC report was just about like that.

Except for mentioning Dean. But then they put out their report and advice the day before he announced his plan for organizing which hit the news cycle today.

But then that is the beauty of our country, we can all believe what we want to believe.

[MrBenchley]

10. Surrrre it was...

"then they put out their report and advice the day before he announced his plan for organizing"
Yes, those sinister bastards probably had spies in his office (snicker)...So what was that plan for organizing? Surely it involved purging the decadent centrists from the party and moving it in the direction of pure socialism....er, no.

"Among Dean's goals are:
Making Democrats the party of values, community and reform. Armed with extensive DNC polling, Dean is consulting with party leaders in Congress, mayors and governors to recast the public's image of Democrats with a unified message.
Improving the party's "micro-targeting," the tactic of merging political information about voters with their consumer habits to figure out how to appeal to them.
Building a 50-state grass-roots organization, using the same Internet and community-building tools that took Dean's presidential bid from obscurity to the front of the pack before Iowa. "

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=1195795

Oops.

[madfloridian]

14. And there is more.

He does work with them. He must. He does. They are the money of the party right now. You just forgot that he is adding things to the factor that the DLC forgot about years ago....people.

"Dean is putting four or five DNC staff members in every state with orders to organize every precinct. One of the organizers' first mandates is to conduct four major events a year, one or two of which are mainly social.

Dean learned from his own campaign that it is critical to form relationships that turn into small communities and build into networks of people who feel part of a bottom-up operation with a purpose larger than themselves.

It's a long-term investment that runs counter to the political culture in Washington that, in the last years of the 20th century, has valued multimillion-dollar TV buys over grass-roots organizing.

"You've got to recruit people. You've got to ask them to do something," Dean said. "You have to treat them like a community."

Please point me to anywhere in the last few years that the DLC wing wanted to include the people of the party. I am a moderate person, I have an open mind. However, I already see the party machine at work here in Florida. We are the state where our Democrats became like Republicans in order to win...then they forgot who they represented.

[MrBenchley]

18. Of course there would be (snicker)

"Please point me to anywhere in the last few years that the DLC wing wanted to include the people of the party."
Geeze, there is a link on the front page of their website inviting you to join.

"I am a moderate person, I have an open mind."
It shows (snicker)...

[Nikki Stone 1]

19. Snickering is a neocon strategy employed when the neocon is really wrong

:)

Unless of course you're talking about Snickers Bars, and they are good cut up in vanilla ice cream.

:)

[MrBenchley]

20. Snickering is an appropriate response to silliness...

[Dr Fate]

55. Don't cut them- freeze them and then smash them to bits.

They are wonderful that way.

[Nikki Stone 1]

66. Frozen, broken Snickers......I seem to have not yet lived!

You're just trying to get me off my diet, aren't you.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

24. You Nailed It...

The Dobson group is trying to heighten the tensions and fissions in the Democratic party by feigning support for certain groups within the party to discredit them....


Clinton was DLC... He gave us eight years of relative peace and prosperity, respect abroad, and Judges Breyer and Ginsburg...


What has the Focus On The Family's candidate given us?

A weak economy, scorn abroad, no peace and no prosperity, and Judges Roberts and Miers...


I'll take a DLC Democrat over a Puke every fucking day of the week and if hugging the center will get us back in the White House I ain't (sic) going to let the perfect be the enemy of the good...

[MrBenchley]

36. One wonder what planet some of these folks live on...

Who but dittoheads compare Hillary Clinton to Hitler?

[Mr_Spock]

45. DLC vs DNC - a 10 round KO match - get your tickets exclusively at DU!!

Get your tickets while they last!

[TahitiNut]

5. As the GOP becomes more and more EXTREME ...

... their mouthpieces 'warn' the Democrats to be more 'centrist'???

Just what the fuck is WRONG with that picture??? :grr:

[Neil Lisst]

9. we can't win without the DLC constituencies

The whole notion of some constant gang fight going on between the DLC and the DNC is largely nonsense. The DLC was created because the party was rapidly coming under the control of party activists, who, as a group, are much more to the left than the party VOTERS.

The DLC was created FOR elected Democrats, who represent all Dems, not just those who are activists. In that sense, there is some inherent conflict between those who get elected as Dems in elections versus those in the party who get elected to PARTY positions.

I side with the elected officials, because they are the ones who have to face the voters, and they know what sells in their district better than some precinct chair in Iowa.

Clinton was a creation of the DLC, and he's been the only presidential success we have had in 40 years. How hard is it to figure out the middle ain't buying Mondale, Dukakis, et al?

-----
my progressive political cartoon
http://www.webcomicsnation.com/neillisst

[TahitiNut]

16. Carlos, is that you?

:evilgrin:

[wellstone_democrat]

49. Oh man! Carlos!!! whatever became of him?

anyone know? I have not thought of him in ages! Mr. Joementum's bestest friend!

[Dr Fate]

56. He was banned.

n/t

[wellstone_democrat]

57. yeah, I remember but wondered if anyone knew his

new home? :evilgrin:

Carlos and I did not get along well.

[Mr_Spock]

39. You are trying to use common sense on an activist site - stop that

Nobody here want's to win elections - they just wanna be right and go out with a ball of flames - or so it seems...

[EFerrari]

53. The DLC doesn't have constituencies. They have donors.

And they can have their center/ middle/ Oreo Cookie philosophy. There is no "gray area" in my health care.

[MrBenchley]

21. If you really need to know what is wrong...

You could start with the silly pretense that folks like Hillary Clinton, Mary Landrieu and Tom Vilsack are "GOP mouthpieces"....

I hope you're not really trying to pretend that as the GOP becomes more and more extreme, the winning strategy for Democrats is to become even more extreme than the GOP...

[TahitiNut]

22. Of course not. Everone knows that the "winning strategy" is to ...

.... abandon labor (get longer whips), fuck over them uppity minorities, restrict abortion, polish the glass ceiling, tell gays to shut up and row, and increase the defense(sic) budget to $600 billion so we can station our military 140 countries instead of merely 105.

After all, appealing to the bigotry (hearts) and ignorance (minds) of the populist majority will "win," right? Sure. Win by appealing to their hearts and minds! Ubetcha!

[MrBenchley]

23. Wonder where you dredge this nonsense up...

[TahitiNut]

25. Don't ask and I won't tell.

:evilgrin:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

27. If It Wasn't

If it wasn't for Clinton's Supreme Court appointees Hardwick would still be the law of the land and if it wasn't for the Clinton presidency the armed forces wouldn't even have a "don't ask, don't tell" policy...


I'd take a one hundred year reign of Clinton Third Wayism than eight years of BFEE....


I'd bet that's a plan 99% of rank and file Democrats could embrace...

[TahitiNut]

31. Yep. I guess that's why there're Log Cabin Republicans.

We sure wouldn't want to have gays openly able to serve in the military and have all the rights of married couples, would we? After all, that'd just make more Log Cabin Republicans, right? This way, they can keep voting Democratic because there's such a HUGH difference! (Gotta love them hugh differences!)
:sarcasm:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

32. Were We Better Off When Hardwick Was The Law Of The Land?

eom

[TahitiNut]

33. Let me get this straight (or gay) ...

... you attribute the reversal of Bowers v. Hardwick (1986), a 5-4 decision, to the DLC (and Clinton?) instead of Lawrence v. Texas (2003), a 6-3 decision??
Fascinating! Simply fascinating! Wow! :wow:

[MrBenchley]

34. Believe me, you can keep whatever it is...

[bluedawg12]

123. Strengthen our base, reach out to young voters,

get a vote drive for the 1/2 of the country too apathetic to vote, get out the vote!! That would add to our base.

Reach out to hispanics and clue them in about the fake wedge issues.

Do not leave behind our core values.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

26. HRC, Vilsack, Mary Landrieu

Anybody that can't see the difference between them and the Pugs is beyond persuasion...

[TahitiNut]

28. There's a HUGH difference between Franco and Hitler!

:evilgrin: A couple of decades at least!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

29. Hitler Was The Architect Of The Final Solution And Threw The World Into

War.....


Franco was one of a long list of garden variety dictators...


To compare the two would be like comparing Jimi Hendrix with Mike Nesmith because they both played rock guitar....

[TahitiNut]

30. See? You agree.

I knew you would. :evilgrin:

[MrBenchley]

37. So you're seriously trying to pretend Hillary Clinton is like Hitler....

Hokay.

[TahitiNut]

42. Nice try.

Perhaps a course in reading comprehension and logic might help you? Or was the fallacious bullshit intentional? :shrug:

[MrBenchley]

43. Don't know what the hell else you're getting at....

The fault isn't on my end of your "fallacious bullshit"

[TahitiNut]

47. So, you're saying it's ignorance rather than intention?

I see. :shrug:

[MrBenchley]

48. Can't tell whether your claim was ignorant or deliberately dishonest

Want to clarify the comparison? Or do you just sprout silly nonsequiturs and right wing talking points in place of discussion?

[TahitiNut]

50. That you "don't know" and "can't tell" ....

... despite your outrageous and fabricated allegation that I likened Hillary Clinton to Hitler is your problem, not mine. Your posts contain inflammatory allegations and ridiculous presumptions, portraying none of the civility that invites discussion.

If you want to research an apt comparison of Bill and Hillary Clinton (and their "third way"), I suggest you review the political approaches of Juan and Isabel Peron (and the "third way" that Juan advocated). For Peron, the "third way" was between capitalism and communism. While the political spectrum has now shifted dramatically to the right, the comparison is still apt.

[MrBenchley]

52. So tell me what the point of the "Hitler/Franco" post was....

"If you want to research an apt comparison of Bill and Hillary Clinton (and their "third way"), I suggest you review the political approaches of Juan and Isabel Peron"
So you ARE trying to pretend the Clintons are fascists? Wonder why you got so fucking huffy then...

[MrBenchley]

35. Agreed...

[Mr_Spock]

41. There are more than too many here beyond persuasion

I'll be using the ignore feature soon - I'm getting extremely tired of this routine - it's time to win elections and it's acceptable to use common sense in my book to win.

[bluestateguy]

6. We've done it the DLC's way for 5 years

And it usually fails. OK, sometimes it doesn't, such as in the Virginia governor's race of 2001, but usually it fails. True populist Democrats like Andrew Jackson, William Jennings Bryan, Woodrow Wilson, FDR, Harry Truman and LBJ must be rolling over in their graves at these yahoos.

[LoZoccolo]

8. Don't forget Melissa Bean. n/t

[MrBenchley]

11. That would be the Harry Truman

who popped up here the other day on a "worst president in history" poll because he denied the United States the joy of having Chairman Mao as an ally...or some such horseshit.

[nvliberal]

38. None of those people are progressives/populists

in the McGovernite sense.

They would be rolling in their graves to see their names being attached to the fringe left.

What's important to note is these populists by and large believed in a strong foreign policy and defense, which is decidedly NOT what the fringe left believes.

[LoZoccolo]

7. This is a tenuous shortcut to real analysis.

I just got through saying there was one person who'd do their work arguing against the DLC, and now you give me this!

[madfloridian]

12. I added more from the WP article. See my edit above.

I think I made my point.

[Neil Lisst]

13. If your point was you're wrong, then you made it

The DLC is made up of Democrats, and any so-called Democrat who doesn't acknowledge that is working for Bush.


-----
my progressive political cartoon
http://www.webcomicsnation.com/neillisst

[madfloridian]

15. No, not all of them are Democrats.

Many of them are Republicans who have been part of that group for years. Democrat and Republican are only names after all.

No, many in the DLC, especially the PPI, and the Third Way are not really Democrats in the true sense.

[MrBenchley]

60. So which ones are really Republicans? Hillary? Max Cleland? Kerry?

Tom Vilsack?

It's fascinating to hear that those people aren't Democrats....

[madfloridian]

65. No, of course not.

I don't think that of them at all. But if you look at the advisors, fellows, etc, especially in the PPI and Third Way...many appear to not be. I leave it to you to do the deciding.

[MrBenchley]

72. That's who the Democratic Leadership Council is....

People like cleland, Kerry, Rahm Emanuel, Hillary Clinton, etc.

"I leave it to you to do the deciding."
Which is why you see me snickering throughout this thread....

(edited because I confused you with the "Peron" guy, for which I DO apologize.)

[niallmac]

17. Aw c'mon everybody. Get with it.

The moral majority is living in the Dark Ages and yet we want to read books and question stuff and that's not where it's at. Go to a witch dunking. Attend an exorcism. Key your Muslim neighbors car why don't you? It's the age of Superstition and 'Reason' is like nowheresville.
We won't get any votes following our souls and moral principals.
Sell out!
You'll feel better.
Next meeting is at zero dark thirty at the Chestnut Tree Cafe. Pass it on.

[Snotcicles]

40. There is no" to far to the left "as far as I'm concerned. n/t

[loudsue]

44. The DLC is comprised of REPUBLICAN INFILTRATORS into the Dem Party

The DLC is NOTHING but corporate whores who have successfully infiltrated the Dem Party with huge corporate contributions, to buy off slimy politicians so that the republican take-over of the country would be complete. And the whores in the DLC have made this possible for the corporatists.

In fact, there are some republicans (Ron Paul, for instance) who are FAR to the left of the DLC "Dems".

The DLC is what is bringing down not only the Democratic party, but are bringing down THE COUNTRY, due to their association (and shared membership) with right-wing corporate and neocon "think tanks".

Until the Dems get these assholes out of government, we will never be able to save this nation.

The right turn of the DLC members is INTENTIONAL INFILTRATION, and you don't need a phucking "link" to be able to see it: the proof is in the pudding. All anyone has to do is open their eyes.

It just boggles my mind that there are people on DU that can actually SUPPORT AND DEFEND the right wing infiltrators into the Dem party. How much education does someone need to get from the research on DU about these rightwing infiltrators before we can call a spade a spade?

:kick::kick::kick:

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MrBenchley]

59. Hillary Clinton is a GOP infiltrator? Really?

Ho-kay.

And Ron Paul is a far right wing loony. He's anti-environment, anti-worker rights, anti-birth control, and crazy as an outhouse rat.

[loudsue]

64. Mr. Benchley...how can you be so blind.

Or ARE you blind? Is this intentional??

You KNOW...that the DLC bashes (on mainstream media, I might add) the traditional Democrats. They SOUND just like the republicans sound. And, yes, Hillarity Clinton, as well.

They talk about how we have to turn more toward corporations, to HELPING corporations, by giving them tax breaks, so that the REPUBLICAN-style "trickle down" economics can "work".
It has been proven that "trickle down" economics only works for the rich.

If it walks like a republican, and talks like a republican and quacks like a republican, it's prolly a republican!!!!

Watch what they DO. Watch how they VOTE. They vote with the republicans.

What part of this do you wish to confuse with your EXTREMELY conservative rhetoric?

:kick:

[MrBenchley]

71. So I guess the answer to my question is

Yes, you think Hillary Clinton is a Republican infiltrator. (snicker)....

Of course you also think that Ron "Dr. No" Paul is liberal, which he ain't.

[wellstone_democrat]

51. Didn't we do this in 2004? Or was Kerry a wild leftist to these peeps

If we ran some sort of "left" or "liberal" campaign the last time I sure missed it! Where is the sucess that route was going to give us? Is someone arguing that Kerry was too much in the thrall of us bad liberals? I'd like to see evidence of that.


OK, fine, head for the mythical "middle" that the Republicans work over so well. The people who want things like abortion available when they and theirs need it but don't want to really have to "think" about it seriously or for anyone else because they really don't like "fights!"

Why would anyone care if the Dems move into Republican territory? Because if they move much more, I'll vote, as Truman said, "for the real thing" because I'll know what I'm getting from the tru believers rather than the posturing vote hounds. Give me a break.

[Dr Fate]

54. Don't forget all those hippies like Max Cleland we ran in 2002. n/t

n/t

[MrBenchley]

58. You DO know Cleland is a member of the DLC, don't you?

http://www.issues2000.org/Social/Max_Cleland_Principles_+_Values.htm

http://www.dlc.org/ndol_ci.cfm?contentid=732&kaid=108&subid=128

[Dr Fate]

61. You DO know I campaigned for Max Cleland in Augusta GA.

My point is that his "me too" strategy of going along with the far right on taxes and FP in 2002 was a mistake- they ran commercials claiming that Max was against Bush's tax cuts, when he had actually voted for almost all of them!!

They ran commercials putting his face next to Bin Laden's- even though Max had generally went along with Bush on FP.

He has the gravitas & credibility- he did not need to be a "me too" candidate- it was a mistake.

Just like Kerry, Max failed to hit back on the smears- Chambliss ran out-right false commercials that claimed Max was "for" needle drugs and "against" the Boy Scouts, etc...

Kerry won Richmond County GA in 2004, BTW.

If Max had framed things like he started to after he lost in 2002- he would have beat Chambliss. He is awesome these days.

I'm pretty moderate on the issues and lean with the DLC on some things... for me, it's the "me too strategy" of going along with Bush that always seems to bite us in the ass.

I know you will call this "far left DEM bashing"- but it's my honest assessment of what happened.

Doc

[MrBenchley]

63. So in other words, Cleland is part of the DLC

"I'm pretty moderate on the issues and lean with the DLC on some things..."
Yeah, it shows...

[Dr Fate]

67. I never said he was not DLC. I said he lost in 2002.

Was his DLC membership in that failed bid supposed to be an asset or somthing? I'm not sure what point you are making. How did it help him?

"I'm pretty moderate on the issues and lean with the DLC on some things..."
Yeah, it shows...

If you want to disagree with me on this statement, you may want to bring an example to the table instead of "yeah, it shows."

But I understand that actual examples of my alleged "far left" leanings would not help you in your recent crusdae to "expose" me as some kind of far-left ANSWER troll- since they dont exist.

If it "shows"- then by all means, post some examples with my permission- show all of DU how I'm a raving fringe leftist on the issues.

[MrBenchley]

69. So that DLC must not be ALL bad, if it's got folks like Cleland, eh?

"If you want to disagree with me on this statement, you may want to bring an example to the table instead of "yeah, it shows." "
Or I might not and leave it at that.

Funny how you seem to have no problem with the original poster announcing Cleland and the DLC were just like Spongebob Dobson and Fuckus on the Family....I suppose I missed the post in this thread where you expressed your outrage.

[Dr Fate]

75. I agree- the DLC is not all bad. I love Cleland, Gore, Hackett, etc

I dont agree with Hackett on every single issue, I just like the way he is not scared of Bush. Is he even DLC? He is conservative on one or two issues.

I dont really have a dog in the "DLC vs. Left" hunt- I take things issue by issue, candidate by candidate.

"If you want to disagree with me on this statement, you may want to bring an example to the table instead of "yeah, it shows." "
Or I might not and leave it at that.

Good- you leave it at that then. You have no examples of how I am "fringe left"- this is just a tactic you use against people who are not in 100% lockstep your personal beliefs.

Cheers,

Doc

[MrBenchley]

78. Like I said...

if a post comparing Max Cleland to Spongebob Dobson don't bother you, it don't bother you...if that means you think you're "fringe left", that's swell too.

[Dr Fate]

80. I was responding to post #51

But I dont think the DEMs need to side with the far-right on religion.

The moderate position is to avoid excessive religious entanglement with government and let families decide these things. I'd just assume not hear too much about it one way or the other, except on Sundays.

I agree that a direct comparison of Max to Dobson is off base- I missed the oppurtunity to gain your approval by not saying that earlier.

[MrBenchley]

82. I don't see many Democrats courting the religious right...

except perhaps Zell Miller...

[Dr Fate]

83. Here is a unique idea on how we actually can do that:

For the more moderate fundies (yes, they exist), it might be a great way to frame things- I'll bet even some DLCers might agree.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2144454

And BTW, I think it's funny how you mention "Old Line Moderate Democrats" in GA and Zell in the same thread!!!

[MrBenchley]

88. That seemed to you like a good idea? Weird.

It seemed to me a lot of hot air and childish posturing without any specifics worth discussing. How about two parent families with one parent at home and ice cream after dinner every night! Yay!

And I think it's funny that you're trying to pretend Zell is a moderate Democrat.

[Dr Fate]

92. Someone said Zell is moderate? I thought he was more in line w/ the DLC

???

[MrBenchley]

97. Please, somebody buy a clue.....

Nice to see you haven't bothered to find out anything about the DLC...but hey, who needs facts?

[Dr Fate]

100. I've never met any DLC volunteers. They seem to only exist on websites.

n/t

[MrBenchley]

102. Know what? I'm not gonna tell you why that is...

Hee hee hee.....

[Dr Fate]

105. Probably because you are their 501st volunteer.

And they started counting at 500. ;)

[MrBenchley]

108. This gets funnier and funnier....

[Dr Fate]

95. So you are against living wages for families? Sounds "far right."

I thought that advocating an economy that would allow families to have more money would be a moderate thing.

Are you opposed to framing the economy this way because we would have to raise the taxes of the top 1% and cut the taxes of the middle class & working poor to really make it work?

[MrBenchley]

98. Did Kreskin tell you that was what that gibberish referred to?

I didn't see any actual economic proposals in that puddle of blah except wishful thinking and ignorance of how things work....and the original post could just as easily been demanding an end to single parent families, as badly as it was written.

"Are you opposed to framing the economy this way"
WHICH way? Again, it would be nice if everybody made a living wage. Let's see a concrete proposal on how to get there.

Here's some specific proposals from grownups...I support both.

http://www.responsiblewealth.org/living_wage/lwc.html

http://acorn.org/


"we would have to raise the taxes of the top 1% and cut the taxes of the middle class & working poor to really make it work?"
Make WHAT work?

[Dr Fate]

103. I'll be glad to continue that topic in the original thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2144454

[MrBenchley]

107. Include me out....

I have no interest in watching folks splash around in that mess.....

[Dr Fate]

109. I will.

If you dont want to discuss a topic, then dont expound on it like you did.

[Dr Fate]

68. Also, I think Kerry won in Richmond county due to massive GOTV...

We got more folks to the polls than any in other election recorded.

Some of the 3rd Way types are now suggesting we should de-emphasize GOTV - which would be another point of strategy where I disagree with them. I know- I know- it's "DEM bashing" to say so, oh well.

Augusta GA, home of the Masters Golf Tourny- has been called "one of the most conservative cites in the United States", BTW.

[MrBenchley]

70. Geeze, get out the vote is a strategy old as the hills....

Or did you mean GOTV the organization?

"Augusta GA, home of the Masters Golf Tourny- has been called "one of the most conservative cites in the United States", BTW."
Gee, good thing Kerry didn't need the DLC to help him his package his platform to appeal to moderate and slightly conservative voters then...oh that's right, Kerry is part of the DLC too....and thus no better than the folks who say Spongebob is gay, according to this thread.

[Dr Fate]

76. Wrong- it was Liberal Black voters who put Kerry over the top in Augusta.

Yes- GOTV is "old" and an obvious strategy as you say, but difficult to pull off logisticaly- it took a lot of grass-roots folks coming out of the wood work to help the Richmond County Democratic party do it- a lot of these were ABB people and folks you would smear as "far left fringe."

We could have used somthing like this when Max was running.

I also did tons of fundraising in Blue CA, to be used in Red States- fun stuff.

Cheers,

Doc

[MrBenchley]

77. And I'll bet a lot were old line moderate Democrats

"folks you would smear as "far left fringe.""
How many attacked Kerry and the DLC?

[Dr Fate]

79. No- that would be the Gov. Barnes machine, who lost everything in 2002.

Many of those "old line moderate Democrats" in the GA State Congress switched to GOP w/i days after the 2002 election. There were 6 or seven of them, in fact.

Later, the County party officaly protested the Iraq War with Unions & Black Church participation. I posted pics of it here on DU, in fact.

Perhaps it is different wherever you campaigned- all active party people I know did not support anything Bush did, we just went along with the strategy passed down from the top- with the idea that "they know what they are doing." I

n 2004, I think the DNC got the GOTV part right- some things the DEMS got wrong.

The most active volunteers were college kids and Black folks- the old folks were back at the office drinking coffee and manning phones most of the time.

How many volunteers attacked Kerry and the DLC?- None. I dont think too many folks outside DC and the net even know there is a DLC to attack.

I've never seen or met a DLC operative or anything- I've certainly never seen DLC volunteers. Hard to attack what you never see. I dealt with the DNC and local party people.

The idea that these faceless strategists somewhere in the beltway "know what they are doing" is not as strong these days after losing 3 elections.

[MrBenchley]

89. Jeepers

"I've never seen or met a DLC operative or anything"
Do you think it's like the man from UNCLE?

"I've certainly never seen DLC volunteers."
What did you expect to see them doing? The DLC is a resource for elected officials. Have you actually looked at their website?

"we just went along with the strategy passed down from the top"
I'm curious...did you think that Kerry was going to change his entire platform based on what somebody in one district in Georgia proposed? What "strategy" exactly do precinct volunteers get to execute, beyond getting people to the polls and handing out literature?

"The idea that these faceless strategists somewhere in the beltway "know what they are doing" is not as strong these days after losing 3 elections. "
Only among those trying to pretend that Max Cleland is just like James Dobson, as this thread is doing. Guess I missed the post in which you told us how outraged that somebody would slander a respected Democrat like that.

[Dr Fate]

93. Where can I meet some of these active DLC people?

Do they help local Democratic parties with campaigns and such, or do they just say things on websites?

"Precinct volunteer?" That is not what I did in 2002 & 2004. Is that what you were or somthing? Where did you do it?

[Dr Fate]

94. The "me too" strategy was one passed down from the top in 2002.

I was talking about both elections-2002 & 2004.

When we saw no one responding to the Swiftboats- we shrugged our shoulders and said "Oh well, they must know what they are doing- must be playing rope-a-dope..."

Where did you campaign? Did you ever meet any DLC volunteers?

[MrBenchley]

96. Again, did you expect to set national policy

from your volunteer post in a precinct in Georgia?

"Did you ever meet any DLC volunteers?"
I take it from that post that you haven't even looked at their website.

[Dr Fate]

99. I dont believe I've looked at the DNC website in some time either.

Don't need to- I've met plenty of DNC folks in person and worked for them. I see Howard Dean on TV from time to time too.

DLC? Outside of DU, nevah hoid of 'em. They may as well be an urban myth.

How does one go about influencing national policy?

How do you go about it?

[MrBenchley]

101. Tee hee hee....

"DLC? Outside of DU, nevah hoid of 'em."
And clearly there's no reason to ever find out anything....

"How does one go about influencing national policy?"
One sits around on a website mindlessly slurring respected Democratic congresspeople (snicker)....

[Dr Fate]

104. I asked how YOU influence national policy.

I'm ready to sit at your feet and absorb your "grown up" wisdom.

[MrBenchley]

106. Ask louder....

[Dr Fate]

113. Nah- I'll check "the website"- that holy-grail of strategic wisdom...

...that guided us through our great 2000, 2002 & 2004 victories.

Before long, the French will pattern their own revolution after this all important website.

;) ;) ;)

Ya know what, I'm putting you on my "Buddy List" ;)

[MrBenchley]

114. About fucking time....

It's wonderful to see someone who knows so little about a subject pouting and stamping his feet when he's asked to find out something.

Guess we'll have to finish off this silliness Baltimore catechism style...

Q: What sort of organizations call for volunteers?
A: Grassroots organizations are generally the sort of organization that call for volunteers.

Q: Are grassroots organizations the only type of political organizations?
A: No. There are other types of organizations.

Q: Is the Democratic Leadership Council a grassroots organization?
A: No, it is not.

Q: Does the Democratic Leadership Council ask for volunteers?
A: No, it does not.

[Dr Fate]

116. Yes- and you can tell from my posts that I was never driving at that.

;)

Are you some kind of employee or writer for the DLC website or somthing- or just an enthusiastic advocate who often visits the website known as "The DLC?"

[MrBenchley]

117. Which posts are supposed to tell me that, pray tell?

The ones where you were asking why you never met a volunteer from a group that's not a grassroots organization and doesn't solicit volunteers?

"Are you some kind of employee or writer for the DLC website"
No, I'm just somebody who abhors the sort of person who sounds off without facts...especially when it comes to an organization that includes Max Cleland.

[Dr Fate]

118. No one is supposed to tell YOU anything, Mr. Benchly.

Just like the DLC.

Cleland is also a member of the Methodist Church and the Stetson University Alumni association- I guess no one better critique their statements or positions around you either.

Doc

[MrBenchley]

119. Awwww....

Don't cry to me because you didn't know what you were talking about...I told you where to look to find out....

[Dr Fate]

120. Oh- is that how it happened?

I guess the whole time I thought the DLC was a "roll up your sleeves" organization with it's finger on the pulse of swing-voters and would-be Democrats- folks who really have their ear to the ground on the issues.

But you set me straight- it's all about career politicians pontificating to us through their oracle- "the website."

Oh why must you be so cruel and shatter my illusions like that? You may as well have told me there is no Santa Claus.

[MrBenchley]

125. Hey, you didn't know what type of organization it is

and it showed...

"it's all about career politicians pontificating to us through their oracle- "the website." "
Yeah, career politicians like Max Cleland, John Kerry and Tom Vilsack. Now go cry about it to somebody who gives a crap.

[Dr Fate]

129. Either you are dull or half way okay at turning things around on people.

I hope it's the latter- I would hate to think all my sarcasm and baiting was wasted.

If you think I have not noted the constant theme over the past 2 years on DU- that the DLC is an "Ivory Tower" compared to grass-roots orgs, then you can think that. I was illustrating that point- thanks for the help.

Oh wait- this is a message board and you and I are the only ones reading this snark war- it was wasted either way!!! Oh well.

Anyway- I like all three of the career DEMs you mentioned- but I have yet to see the DLC do much for me since the 1990's. Max Cleland's other affiliations, The Methodist Church and Stetson U does little for me as well. Maybe that will change.

The last word on whatever it is you think we are arguing is yours- until we have an actual disagreement on issues, candidates or strategy.

[MrBenchley]

132. Far as I can see "the constant theme over the past 2 years on DU"

is a bunch of people who don't know what they're talking about bashing the DLC....hence a thread comparing Max Cleland to Spongebob Dobson.

[leesa]

73. Just what we've known. Far right GOP = far right DLC

Get rid of all these bastards in the DLC. Their position is clear.

[confludemocrat]

74. As if Kerry and many other candidates didn't take this approach & LOSE!

Gimme a break. Where has the "third way" gotten us? Loss of the House, loss of most governorships, loss of the Senate and soon to follow: Roe vs Wade, an illegal war in Iraq, I could go on but I rest my case.

[Arkana]

81. WTF?!

Democrats must "admit that they cannot simply grow themselves out of their electoral dilemmas," wrote William A. Galston and Elaine C. Kamarck, in a report released yesterday. "The groups that were supposed to constitute the new Democratic majority in 2004 simply failed to materialize in sufficient number to overcome the right-center coalition of the Republican Party."

What the hell "right-center coalition" are they talking about? Have these idiots even been WATCHING any current events unfold? Every move the Pubes make drive the center away. What bilge.

[LoZoccolo]

84. Far-right NRA agrees with Howard Dean!

State's rights, anyone?

[Dr Fate]

85. Let's take all this issue by issue, candidate by candidate.

I'm all for dropping this whole "you are far left-so you are wrong" and "you are DLC, so you are a Repub spy" crap on DU.

Why cant we discuss things issue by issue, candidate by candidate?

[LoZoccolo]

87. I wasn't really serious.

I was just showing how that logic could end up producing something that they wouldn't like.

[madfloridian]

86. Dean does not go much for gun control.

That is a non-issue for me. He supports putting back the ban on assault weapons, so do I.

Again, from the right and the left.

[MrBenchley]

90. So since YOU declare it a non-issue

nobody else in the country can discuss it? Weird.

[MrBenchley]

91. And James Dobson is opposed to gun control! Aiyeee!

I find most hilarious that some of the loudest voices slamming the DLC for being "right wing" support conservaitve Demcorats Paul Hackett and Howard Dean (whose positions on most issues are indistinguishable from Joe Lieberman)...and that one I've encountered thought that crazy Ron Paul was liberal.

[Dr Fate]

110. That is why I say "issue by issue, candidate by candidate."

For me, blanket support for all the things to be found on the DLC website is no way to go- neither is blanket condemnation for all things Lieberman or Dean might agree on.

[AntiCoup2K4]

111. Now just a damn minute! I thought Howard Dean was an "ultra-leftist"

...Now you call him a right winger and compare him to Holy Joe??

Can't you DLC'ers make up your minds?

[Dr Fate]

112. Issue by issue, candidate by candidate.

Why do we need to frame arguments as "you DLCers" and "you radical leftists"

I know I was having some fun with Mr. Benchly on this- but when can we get to a point where the candidate/person, strategies and issues can be debated on their merits?

[MrBenchley]

115. Who the fuck ever said Dean was an ultra-leftist?

Dean's a fairly conservative Democrat. That's one reason why he didn't inspire a lot of support in the primaries, and finished no better than third in all but the Vermont one.

The only people I've ever seen trying to pretend otherwise are also trying to pretend Max Cleland and John Kerry are just like Spongebob Dobson...

[Solon]

121. I don't know, maybe the DLC itself...

In 1992, a party sick of losing was ready to turn away from time-honored stances in favor of nostrums with more mainstream appeal. After last year's loss with the overly tactical John Kerry, however, the Democratic left now seems convinced that full-throated liberalism is the proper political prescription. Howard Dean, the personification of that idea, is now the Democratic National Committee chairman, and if an anti-Bush backlash leads to significant Democratic gains in the 2006 midterms, Dean and his followers will no doubt adduce that as evidence that their way marks the path to victory.

Emphasis mine.

Source:
http://www.dlc.org/ndol_ci.cfm?contentid=253553&kaid=85&subid=65

[Dr Fate]

122. The DLC notes that Kerry was being overly tactical.

Were they warning him of this during the election? Isn't he a member?

[MrBenchley]

127. How I wish people could actually READ...

The DLC noted no such thing...

Scot Lehigh, writing in the Boston Globe, called Kerry "overly tactical"...

Scot Lehigh is the Boston Globe's columnist...

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/lehigh/bio/

The DLC put the article on their website, as they do with many articles in which they are mentioned...that's why it's in the "headlines/oped" section...

Here's where they put out their press releases...

http://www.dlc.org/ndol_sub.cfm?kaid=85&subid=108

[Dr Fate]

128. Oh, my bad, I thought I ras reading that from their website.

If they disgaree with the Boston Globe, then they should not put them on "the website" that you suggest apparently is the DLC.

It's a good article about the DLC- but it glosses over whatever they did for Kerry, that is for sure. Exactly what tactical mistakes does the Boston Globe they think he made, I wonder. He does not specifiy whether the DLC devised those tactics or not.

Did they?

It seems they have to go all the way back to the early and mid 1990's to give examples of good tactics for national elections.

[MrBenchley]

131. ruh-ro....

"Exactly what tactical mistakes does the Boston Globe they think he made, I wonder."
Why not ask the Boston Globe?

[Dr Fate]

138. The DLC put that Boston Globe Editorial on their Website.

If the website disagrees with the Globe editorial on Kerry's election tactics and Dean's DNC approach, then why is it there?

Did the DLC have anything to do with Kerry's tactics?

Those are two specific questions.

[MrBenchley]

139. Yes, and did you read the conclusion?

"Those are two specific questions."
And what silly questions they are too.

[Dr Fate]

141. Yes. But If you can't answer questions about an editorial you site....

...then dont site it.

In your "ahem" post you try to point us to some wisdom in that article, about Bill Clinton's 1990's tactics. So yes, I read the conclusion- the part you endorse.

But when other posters want to look at other text from the same DLC link, you call it "silly" and dissassociate the article with the DLC. then you insist we should read postion papers instead. You never sited a position paper- you sited the link in question.

From the same DLC link that you chide us to both read and disavow, depending on the parts you like:

"After last year's loss with the overly tactical John Kerry, however, the Democratic left now seems convinced that full-throated liberalism is the proper political prescription. Howard Dean, the personification of that idea, is now the Democratic National Committee chairman, and if an anti-Bush backlash leads to significant Democratic gains in the 2006 midterms, Dean and his followers will no doubt adduce that as evidence that their way marks the path to victory."

The questions are- If the DLC disagrees with these statements about Kerry & Dean, as you suggest , then what are they doing there?

The 2nd question is, did the DLC have anything to do with Kerry's election tactics?

Doc

[MrBenchley]

146. What a silly statement.....

"From the same DLC link that you chide us to both read and disavow"
I'm sure I don't give much of a crap what you do.

[Dr Fate]

144. The reason is the DLC does indeed agree with the text it provided.

I've decided to answer the questions for you:

If the website disagrees with the Globe editorial on Kerry's election tactics and Dean's DNC approach, then why is it there?

Answer: Because they agree with the suggestions the Globe makes. They want people all over the counrty to think Dean's "full thorated Liberalism" is a problem and that Kerry's tactics were not their fault.

Did the DLC have anything to do with Kerry's tactics?

Answer: Yes, but that won't stop them from trying to blame Liberal & moderate grass roots DEMs.

The last word is yours: I'm done trying to keep you honest on this thread- maybe next time...

Doc

[MrBenchley]

147. Tee hee hee....

Wow...since Dean himsefl is a moderate Democrat (far less liberal than Kerry for example) your claim is quite silly.

"I'm done trying to keep you honest on this thread-"
That IS rich.

[MrBenchley]

126. Ahem....

From the same piece (not authored by the DLC, but the Boston Globe, by the way):

"As for the left's enduring hostility toward From's organization? Well, let's give the last word to a happy warrior who has experienced that animus up close: "I was amazed by some of the criticisms of the DLC from the Democratic left, who accused us of being closet Republicans, and from some members of the political press.... When we didn't fit neatly in their ossified Democratic box, they said we didn't believe in anything. The proof was that we wanted to win national elections, something Democrats apparently weren't supposed to do."
From? No, actually, that's Bill Clinton, in his autobiography "My Life."
With DLC centrism as his compass, Clinton became the first Democrat to win the presidency in 16 years -- and, four years later, the first Democrat to win two terms since FDR.
That history alone makes the DLC worth listening to. "

[Dr Fate]

130. So how do we tell which parts of the article "the website" agrees with?

I don't think anyone disputes that Clinton's tactics won the day a decade ago.

The modern debate could arguably concern Dean's DNC/DFA approach vs. Kerry's failed '04 tactics- which is also discussed in this article that is presented on the DLC website. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with either of them- I'm just noting what your website presented via the Globe.

Which parts of the article are we supposed to assume the website endorses? The parts you like- or all the text they actually present?

[MrBenchley]

133. Try press releases and position papers

I find it sort of mindboggling that someone has to tell you that.

"The modern debate could arguably concern Dean's DNC/DFA approach vs. Kerry's failed '04 tactics"
Since Dean didn't make it out of the primaries, it would appear Kerry prevailed. Meanwhile, I've yet to see any evidence of discord between Dean and Kerry.

[Dr Fate]

137. I said Dean's DNC/DFA approach- I was not asking about the primaries.

I leaned Kerry & Clark in the primaries- ended up voting Kerry.

I was adressing the article that you highlighted the Clinton text from. If the DLC website disagrees with that article on Kerry's election tactics and Dean's post primary/election DNC approach, then what is it doing there?

Doc

[MrBenchley]

140. Happen to catch Dean on David Letterman?

Sure sounded to me like he was endorsing the DLC approach of reaching out to moderates.

[Dr Fate]

142. Good diversion. Now back tho the DLC link you sited:

"After last year's loss with the overly tactical John Kerry, however, the Democratic left now seems convinced that full-throated liberalism is the proper political prescription. Howard Dean, the personification of that idea, is now the Democratic National Committee chairman, and if an anti-Bush backlash leads to significant Democratic gains in the 2006 midterms, Dean and his followers will no doubt adduce that as evidence that their way marks the path to victory."

This is from the DLC link that you highlighted the Clinton text from. If the DLC website disagrees with that editorial on Kerry's election tactics and Dean's post primary/election DNC approach, then what is it doing there?

The questions were and still are:

If the DLC disagrees with these comments about Dean and Kerry, then why are the comments on their site?

Did the DLC have anything to do with Kerry's 2004 tactics?

Doc

[Dr Fate]

143. n/t

ooo

[MrBenchley]

148. No diversion at all....

"his is from the DLC link that you highlighted the Clinton text from."
Only because you dredged it up in the first place. Now I suggest you pack your silly questions away where the sun doesn't shine.

[Dr Fate]

145. I'll answer the questions myself:

If the website disagrees with the Globe editorial on Kerry's election tactics and Dean's DNC approach, then why is it there?

Answer: Because they agree with the suggestions the Globe makes. They want people all ove rthe counrty to think Dean's "full thorated Liberalism" is a problem and that Kerry's tactics were not their fault.

Did the DLC have anything to do with Kerry's tactics?

Answer: Yes, but that wont stop them from trying to blame Liberals & moderate grass roots DEMs.

The last word is yours: I'm done trying to keep you honest on this thread- maybe next time...

Doc

[MrBenchley]

149. They're your silly questions..be as goofy as you like.

[bluedawg12]

124. There is a place for radical right wing theofascists

the place is their ass and the time is with my boot swiftly quicking it.

I want to get helpful advise from these fucking puke hate mongering scum like I want to see Limbags pilonidal cyst. that is, not at all.

They should just shut the fuck up and keep stuffing donughts in their chubby psycho eunuch faces.

We will find our own voters just fine and dandy. Buzz off vermin.

[MisterP]

135. HA HA HA HA

[annabanana]

134. Damn it .. the people were THERE in '04

Standing in the rain for hours outside of insufficient polling places... voting on vaporware machines.. sent from one station to the next..illegally purged from the rolls..

The people were THERE... the system wasn't.

[paineinthearse]

136. "...prominent role of the centrist Democratic Leadership Council..."

:wtf: centrist? :wtf: