Why are Dean's supporters charging that Clark is not liberal?

[TakebackAmerica]

On every single issue Clark is as liberal if not more liberal than Dean. Deanies, find me just ONE issue Dean is more liberalthan Clark on. ONE issue. Problem is you can't. Actually on defense Clark is more liberal than Dean. Clark, Kucinich, Sharpton and maybe Kerry are the only candidates talking about cutting the defense budget.

It's time for Howard Dean to get on the record saying he will cut our enormous defense budget. Tonight at the debate Dean has an opportunity to set the record straight. Dean is a great man but having his troops attacking Clark for not being liberal enough is untruthful and disgraceful.These smae smears will be used by Bush in the general election.

[JohnKleeb]

1. TA, Kerry may be for DoD cutting too

[TakebackAmerica]

4. OK

Thanks!

[JohnKleeb]

10. Hes supported in the best is all I know

Its a + and one of the reasons, this Kucitizen as him as a second choice. Your welcome.

[quinnox]

2. Agreed

I'm no Clark supporter, but Dean should be called on the carpet for his low blows on a man like Clark. Dean isn't fit to polish Clark's shoes, or should I say, boots. LOL {I put that for effect, the Deanies are going to flame me, so what}

[Padraig18]

3. This one doesn't maintain that. Please quit lumping us all together.

Thank you. :hi:

[tedoll78]

6. Ditto.

I like Clark.

[KittyWampus]

30. Paidrag, You're One Of The Reasons I'll Vote For Dean

If I have to in the General Election... you're a class act!

[Bread and Circus]

35. Me too, Clar as well....

:hi:

[Padraig18]

37. Thank you both!

:grouphug:

[clar]

50. Thanks familydoc!

I believe that when it all sugars off (as we Vermonters are wont to say) we all have more in common than that which separates us. I know I'd be proud and happy to have the opportunity to vote for Clark should he get the nomination.

[Donna Zen]

52. me three!

Thanks for promoting debate.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

5. Could it have something to do with him voting for Reagan and Nixon?

And praising Bush I and II?

I'm trying to give Clark the benefit of the doubt, I like the words coming out of his mouth, but it will take alot of convincing for me to believe someone who voted for Reagan really shares my values.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

9. He's Changed....

Let's say a gay man has been in the closet all his life and decides to come out of the closet....

Should the gay community disown him and tell him to go back in the closet?


I thought liberals believe in redemption...


If we don't we should incarcerate criminals for life because they are bound to do it again....

[Padraig18]

13. Apparently...

... they only believe in redemption if it doesn't 'cost' their preferred candidate support. :eyes:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

24. I Think Being A Liberal In The Military

is similar to being gay in many ways....

Liberalism is discouraged in the military and homosexuality is discouraged by many in society....

Let's change both....

Also, if liberals continue to encourage the notion that only retrograde neanderthals with a primordial urge to kill can serve in the military that's exactly what we'll get...

[Sterling]

56. think he can vote Dem he just can't lead the Dems yet

Let him put in some time prove his values to us then maybe he can get the most important job in the party.

Clark fans would let the fox guard the henhouse without noticing he has four legs.

[TakebackAmerica]

16. Not to my knowledge to did he praise Bush 1

Th late liberal GOP Senator John Chafee was more liberal than most liberal Democrats. Clark spent 34 years in a conservitive envrioment and once he examined the issues he realized he was a Democcrat. Clark is a visionaryand his vision of America is a very liberal vision. More liberl than Howard Dean's. Also Dean's has been branded a "liberal" and people no matter how much the hate W won't vote for a "liberal" The worst part for Dean is that he isn't really a liberal. Clark can't be branded because he is an open thinker.

[imhotep]

7. liberals

don't make a career out of killing innocent human beings.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

12. A Hit And Run Poster

Buddha would be ashamed of you.....

[quinnox]

14. lol

n/t

[TakebackAmerica]

18. LOL!

What about Milosecivic's genocide, was that okay? See your view is extremly hypocritcal. Also not a single US solider died.

[bluefire2000]

29. straw man alert!

Clark did not make a career out of killing innocent civilans. Period.

[janekat]

42. What if they're in the military?

n/t

[Skwmom]

44. Why don't you make that comment to people Clark helped save

from ethnic cleansing.

[CMT]

8. where do you see Howard Dean supporters are doing this?

I'm sure some do, but certainly not all. I've seen some supporters of Gephardt, Kerry, and Kucinich say the same type thing so I don't Dean supporters should only be singled out.

[mot78]

11. I hope this doesn't become a flame-war

I'm sick of people on this board saying that Clark is a DLCer. Almost all of his positions are the same as Dean's, except for the tax cuts where he's slighly to the right of Dean. And on cutting Defense, he's slightly to the left of Dean.

[Julien Sorel]

19. On the tax cuts, he'd actually be to the left of Dean, since

his plan leads to a more progressive tax structure.

[tsipple]

25. Re: Progressive Tax Structure

Um, no.

Federal taxation is more progressive than state taxation. States levy sales taxes, predominantly. With less federal revenue there's more weight on the states and higher sales taxes (and fees). States would also increase tobacco taxes (skewed very heavily to the poor and middle class), lotteries and gambling (ditto, with negative social impacts as well), and gasoline taxes (ditto again). Property taxes are also quite regressive, and localities depend on that source of revenue.

Also, Clark's plan is less able to close the deficit. Deficits disproportionately favor bond holders (the wealthy) and hurt the poor and middle class (the "borrowing class"). They also result in higher future taxes, which the wealthy can (and do) transfer to their heirs and which the poor and middle class cannot, reducing upward mobility. (Their children and grandchildren have to pay off the bond holders.) Deficits are quite simply deferred tax increases -- with interest.

Moreover, the federal spending available is less under Clark's plan, because there are fewer dollars coming into the U.S. Treasury. Dean advocates expansion of poor and middle class health benefits, in particular, *and* pays for them. Healthcare costs are large and growing budget items for poor and middle class Americans, and help here would reduce out-of-pocket expenses and free up more household budget. Discretionary spending tends to favor the poor and middle class.

And that's just one federal program -- healthcare. Cutting federal spending is not generally progressive.

[Julien Sorel]

31. Umm, yes.

He wants to roll back the tax cuts on people who make >200k, while leaving the lower income peoples' tax cuts intact. That is a 100% tax break for people making <200k compared to Dean's position. He also wants to take some of the increased revenue fron that, and roll it out to the states. Whether or not the states choose to increase taxes to offset any putative reductions in their budgets cause by a reduction in federal outlays would be up to them, but they would have to raise their taxes the full amount of the difference for Dean's position to be equally progressive to Clark's. The President has direct influence on the federal budget, not the states' budgets. In the realm that he is responsible for, Clark's position is more progressive than Dean's -- the rest is your speculation.

[tsipple]

33. No, Not Speculation

It is a fact that Clark's plan does not tackle the federal deficit as aggressively as Dean's plan. So you have to pick one or some combination of the following with Clark (and Kerry): higher deficit, less aid to states, and/or less federal spending. All of THOSE options disproportionately hurt poor and middle class Americans.

No speculation required. Just common sense and full (rather than partial) analysis.

Now, which plan is, on net, more progressive? Hard to say. Paul Krugman says Dean's plan is, and he's a professional economist, so there's one substantial view.

On edit: Let me add that I also agree with the analysis that suggests that any Democratic arguments to the electorate about taxes (alone) are absolute losers. Democrats MUST argue the points I've just made: what are the FULL impacts of federal budget choices? Republicans would love a discussion about taxes and nothing else -- especially about income taxes. Guess who *still* pays most income taxes.

If we don't shift as much tax burden to the income tax as we possibly can, away from other forms of taxation (or deferred taxation), we won't have a progressive tax system. Which wouldn't bother Republicans a bit.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

34. Clearly Clark's Plan Is More Progressive

Fewer taxes on the poor. Moreover, the deficit bridge will be made up by Clark by taking from the defense budget, among other things, and NOT by taking from social services.

Advantage: Clark.

DTH

[tsipple]

39. No, It's Not (Says Paul Krugman)

Clark (and Kerry) offer just three choices (in some combination):

1. Higher deficits.
2. Lower federal spending.
3. Less aid to states and localities.

If there's less federal revenue, you have only these three choices. (Really two, but I broke out #3 from #2 for clarity.)

How do states and localities tax? As regressively as you can possibly imagine. Sales taxes, tobacco taxes, liquor taxes, property taxes, gambling and lottery taxes, and a variety of fees such as parking tickets, licensing, driver and vehicle registration, etc. Many (most?) states have no income tax, and many of those have flat or even regressive income taxes. How do states spend? Disproportionately on the poor and middle class, with the exception of an odd sports stadium here and there. :-)

What do higher federal deficits mean? Higher future taxes, with interest. Interest goes to bond holders (the wealthy). Wealthy adults transfer money to their heirs, who then pay the higher taxes (thanks to their mommies and daddies) and collect the interest. Poor and middle class adults can't transfer money to their heirs, and their heirs get to pay higher taxes (out of their own meager pockets) and don't collect the bond interest.

What does lower federal spending mean? Well, less pay for soldiers and sailors, fewer contracts to military workers (mostly middle class), fewer student loans, cuts in Medicare or Medicaid, less (and lower quality) education, fewer small business loans, less environmental protection and cleanup, less enforcement of civil rights laws, etc., etc.

Paying your bills and eliminating the federal deficit sooner rather than later is the most progressive policy possible!

[Donna Zen]

53. Krugman to Clark to God's ear

Since 2001, sensible economists have been pleading for
federal aid to state and local governments so
schoolteachers and police officers needn't be laid off
because of a temporary fall in revenues. They've also urged
the administration to stop dragging its heels on
much-needed homeland security spending, not just because
such spending is needed to make the country safer, but also
because it would create jobs and put more income into the
hands of Americans likely to spend it. (And if you're
worried about spending's leading to increased deficits, why
not cancel some of those long-run tax breaks for upper
brackets?) Until we've done the obvious things, there's no
reason to despair about job creation. Lumps of Labor 10/07

Which happens to be exactly what Clark is advocating:

http://www.americansforclark.com/speeches/002/

[tsipple]

58. Re: Krugman's Opinion of the Kerry/Clark Plan

Dean also supports aid to states and localities.

So the question is, who's going to be the one who can actually carry out that pledge? Without blowing up the deficit?

By the way, Krugman dissed the Kerry/Clark plan, pointing out that the deficits are just too big. You might want to read all his articles.

[zeemike]

60. I got to answer that

Any of them could if they take a play from Bushes playbook.
Pass a law and call it “Aid to States” and then not fund it.
You know like “Leave no child behind” or “the patriot act” which does the opposite of what it says.

[Julien Sorel]

40. You said it yourself:

He isn't going to tackle the deficit as aggressively as Dean. That allows for more domestic spending (progressive) and/or fewer tax increases for the middle class and below (again, more progressive).

I want to see where Krugman said Dean's policy is more progressive than Clark's. Krugman is a Keynesian, and Clark's plan is more Keynesian than Dean's. Dean's balance-the-budget mantra is not in line with Keynesian economics, and it certainly is not progressive.

[tsipple]

59. No, Read Krugman...

Krugman expressly criticized candidates who did not recognize the enormity of the deficit and were not as aggressive in reducing it. Notably John Kerry.

So you're saying the Wesley Clark advocates bigger federal deficits? Why is a less solvent federal government progressive? I totally disagree -- it's quite the opposite.

[Bread and Circus]

36. Actually that's true...

and in effect turns the tables on
Bush even more.

[Pastiche423]

21. clark is the DLC's

newest bestest golden boy. He has surounded himself w/them. He's following their campaign lead.

Did he finally post his positions/issues? Where?

[IranianDemocrat]

62. Total Fool!

No Evidence! No reason! No doubt!

Just make shit up and post it on the board.

[rucky]

15. Strawman

Change your header to "How Clark is More Liberal Than Dean" and I may give a shit.

[Wetzelbill]

17. Dean has an in office progressive record

Clark has nothing other than a few speeches and some votes for Republicans that possibly counter them. Howard talks a good game too and his record is not as liberal as one would think -definitely a fiscal conservative- but he does have a progressive history. I think Clark is definitely a democrat-possibly a pretty liberal one at that- he just has no way to really prove it right now other than by saying it over and over and over. It's something that he has to hope works for him in the end. The guy is charismatic and intelligent, so I tend to believe he'll do a good job of convincing people he is sincere about being a liberal democrat.

[janekat]

41. Actually Dean doesn't have a progressive record at all

Especially with the environment, criminal justice. He was basically pushed into signing the civil unions bill that he signed.

[Woodstock]

43. Au contraire

Check out the article for more rebuttals:

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=16592

The Environment: Dean's Vermont "has one of the most progressive environmental programmes in America" according to the London Times. As former Vermont radio and television talk show host Jeff Kaufman points out, "During his decade in office, Governor Dean helped protect more land from development than all previous governors combined; ... he administered a 'best practices' agriculture plan that preserves land and water quality; he helped form the nation's first statewide energy efficiency utility (preventing more than one million tons of greenhouse gas emissions since 2000); and he championed a commuter rail system to lower traffic congestion and pollution while diminishing urban sprawl (in its last report on sprawl, the Sierra Club ranked Vermont as the second best state in America for land use planning)." Vermont also followed California's lead in establishing regulations on greenhouse gas emissions that go beyond standards set in the Kyoto Protocol. According to the New York Times, Dean "is calling for the auto industry to build cars that get 40 miles per gallon by 2015 and for 20 percent of the nation's electricity to come from renewable sources by 2020. ... s president he would close the loophole that exempts sport utility vehicles from gas-mileage standards, ... make the Environmental Protection Agency cabinet level and work to re-establish the Clinton administration rules limiting roads in national forests." Even when Dean was judged less favorably on environmental issues, the executive director of the Vermont Natural Resources Council, Elizabeth Courtney, recognizes that pressing economic circumstances impacted his decisions ("in the early 90s the rest of the country seemed to be pulling out of the recession and Vermont seemed to be languishing in it") and acknowledges Dean's general qualities as governor: "fresh candor and intelligence. You always know where Howard Dean stands. He is candid and honest in his communications with Vermonters, and he is appreciated for that. He's also very bright, and he has a clear sense of his direction." The San Francisco Chronicle reported that " Pope said that although the Sierra Club had some disagreements with Dean's land-use policies, Dean did 'fabulous things in Vermont.'"

[Skwmom]

46. Deanies are like Bush supporters. The record does not matter. e/o/m

[JohnKleeb]

47. Woodstock gave you a link Skw FYI

If its about the environment and that were my key issue I for one would choose Dennis or John Kerry, likely Kerry no offense to DK but Kerry is simply the man on the environment. I admire Gephardt for his labor support but Kucinich is just as good as he on labor issues and I could argue better, but I think Gephardt probably supports repealing Taft-Hartley too, of course I bet hes said it already and I know Dennis has.

[clar]

51. I truly resent

that type of slur. Both as a Dean supporter, a Clark and Kerry admirerer and a liberal Vermonter. You do your candidate no favors by lumping all Dean supporters together. Just as I would be doing my candidate no favors should I comport myself as you do.

[alexwcovington]

20. "Why are Clark supporters charging that Dean's supporters are charging tha

Seriously -- I don't know who you're talking about. Clark's a good guy, but I'm supporting Dean. No name calling. No hateful remarks. That's just who I'm supporting. I have my reasons. They most certainly do not involve defamation.

[Terran]

22. Who cares?

One of them is going to get nominated, or maybe someone else. I'm going to vote for whoever that person is. Clark, Dean, Kerry, any of the Ten, they're all great people and I won't even consideer voting for someone other than the Dem nominee. This bickering over labels is a waste of time and bandwidth.

[Demsupporter]

23. Does Clark know what he is is a better question.

In the very recent past, Clark has been on every side of any given issue. Only when he decided to run as a Democrat did he start talking liberal. I don't trust the man.

[cprise]

26. Why is Clark charging himself as a liberal?

I mean, show me the Clark money.

What's that? I can find it in the RNC coffers?

[sfecap]

27. Because he not?

A liberal doesn't spend his life thinking up ways to wage war.

A liberal doesn't think that the way to win a war is to destroy civilian infrastruture like hospitals and schools.

A liberal doesn't think cluster bombs are neat.

A liberal doesn't publicly praise * and his team.

A liberal doesn't express his friendship with Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Feith, Pearle, Cheney.

A liberal doesn't help raise funds for republicans.

A liberal doesn't just wake up one day and decde he's a Democrat.

Clark talks the talk, but he's never walked the walk.

He's a con job brought to you by the "new Democrats" at the DLC.

He's as phoney as it gets.

[TakebackAmerica]

57. "He's a con job brought to you by the "new Democrats" at the DLC."

Yep and Howard Dean is a feline cleaning robot

[poskonig]

28. The Clark = GOP image is *CLARK'S* fault.

I've tried to convince people that Clark is cool, but several factors are working against me.

One, Clark took forever "deciding" if he was a Democrat or not. Secondly, despite his degrees in economics, philosophy, and political science, Clark behaves as if he does not know where he stands on issue *details.* Given Clark's past praise of the very people (Rummy, Cheney, etc) we have been fighting the entire campaign, I can understand why people are suspicious, though I do not agree with it.

If Team Clark wanted to remove the ambiguity, they would upfront about the issue details ASAP. However, they are trying to run a substance-less "Arnold" style campaign, probably to get swing voters on board.

Try to understand the current events and don't be so quick to judge.

[bluefire2000]

32. Clark is releasing detailed policy statements

over the coming few weeks on subjects such as healthcare. I forget the exact dates and I'll provide a link when I find it, but I did receive that information from the campaign today.

I honeslty don't believe they are trying to run a substance-less campaign. I think they realize they would not survive the primary process.

However, your perfectly entitled to hold that view--until he does articulate details.

[janekat]

45. Here's some of his statements summarized...

http://www.issues2000.org/Wesley_Clark.htm

Wesley Clark:

Supports University of Michigan's affirmative action plan. (Jun 15)

"I'm concerned about the lock-up policy, the 3-strikes policy, putting people in jails and the way we've treated people in prison. We've got to look seriously at the American penal system and what it does when it returns people to the streets."

Supports universal health coverage

“We went into Iraq under false pretenses. There was deceptive advertising; you'd be taking to the Better Business Bureau if you bought a washing machine the way we went into the war in Iraq.”
”We're taking casualties. We haven't made America safer by this. We've made America more engaged, more vulnerable, more committed, less able to respond. We've lost a tremendous amount of goodwill around the world by our actions and our continuing refusal to bring in international institutions. “

Compared Bush to Nixon in abusing his power to bully Congress and US allies. "This is an administration which has moved in a way we have not seen any administration since Nixon to abuse executive authority to scheme, manipulate, intimidate and maneuver.”

Full sunshine review of PATRIOT Act. (Jun 19)

Supports funding for all-day kindergarten

Establish 18:1 student-teacher ratio for grade school. (Mar 1999)

Decries lack of funding for No Child Left Behind. (Apr 28)

“The way to deal with Castro is to send Cuba American tourists, American goods and American farm products. There could be no better way to deal with this last vestigial form of Communism than to turn American business and American agriculture loose on them.”

Work with the International Criminal Court. (Jul 2002)

"We've found many times in our experience that it's best to use force only as a last resort."

”Why are so many here in America hesitant to speak out and ask questions? We're going to ask those hard questions. And in a time of war, we're going to ask those questions in the highest sense of patriotism. We are going to hold the administration accountable for its policies and results.”

Disturbed that we suspended habeus corpus for War on Terror. (Mar 23)

would consider cutting defense spending if elected, he said. "We are trapped in .....an endless occupation" of Iraq".

"we should be very reluctant to use force. It has incredible, difficult and unintended consequences, which we are once again beginning to see as we deal with the situation in Iraq."

Invest 3% of GDP on development assistance abroad. (Nov 2001)

Supports ban on assault weapons

Immigration is vital to prosperity. (Jun 17)

I am very pro-immigration. (Jun 27)

The military needs to reconsider the "don't ask, don't tell" policy for gay service members.

$5T tax cuts for the rich are legalized theft. (Jun 20)

Supports redistribution by progressive taxation. (Jun 19)

Supports a "freeze" on Bush's tax cuts that have yet to take effect for people earning $150,000 or more.

Need Marshall Plan for Middle East and Afghanistan. (Jun 17)

We went into Iraq under false pretenses. (Aug 17)

Israel: bring in Syria and Iran into peace talks. (Jun 17)

NATO was the reason for our victory in Kosovo. (Sep 2002)

Palestinians decided to return to terrorism after 2000. (Mar 2002)

Solution to terrorism is not bullets but world community. (Oct 2001)

[Woodstock]

38. Stop lumping all Dean supporters together

and labelling them according to your whim.

Your thread could have been phrased in a tone far more condusive to discussion. Instead you slam all "Deanies" as doing what you perceive them to be doing - which in my opinion is not true at all.

Instead, why not just address the issue. How about just asking Who is more liberal? And then stating your answer. Why drag "Deanies" into it?

I'm a Dean supporter who thinks Clark and Dean are very close in their positions, and I think they'd both make great presidents. I hope very much that they will be on the same ticket.

[noiretextatique]

48. both are moderates

i don't think there's much difference between the two. in randomuser "diamond grid analysis" post, clark was more "populist" and dean more "moderate," but both with a liberal slant.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

49. Bingo.... We Agree Again....

Clark Dean

Camry Accord

Clark Dean

Levis Wranglers

Clark Dean

Wendys Burger King


I don't see a big difference either and if the difference is superficial I'll choose the one that can beat *....

[killbotfactory]

54. Who shot who in the what, now?

I like Clark.

[Sterling]

55. Is it just Dean supporters?

I thought it was just liberals in general who are concerned with the lack of liberal credentials Clark and for that matter any of the candidates cept maybe DK and Sharpton posess.


I think Dean offers a comprimise with the right wingers in the party. The only acceptable comprimise as far as the anti war crowd is concerned. It's not just Clarks liberal cred that is at issue it is his cnnections with people we know not to trust.

[stickdog]

61. The Bill of Rights. The Iraq War. Gay Rights.

Need I go on?

Clark is a political cipher. And the few things he does have a record on suggest that he's right of Dean.

Plus, his most vocal supporters are well right of Dean, pro-DLC, pro-corporate, pro-establishment and pro-status quo.