OK, I'll say it.....

[kentuck]

The bombing in Jordan can be traced to one man - George W Bush. The riots in Paris can be traced to one man. The killings in Baghdad can be traced to one man. It was George W Bush that made the decision to invade Iraq and that one decision has upset what little balance that existed in that part of the world. There are reactions to our actions and what we see in the world today is a direct result of the decisions of George W Bush and this Administration. Who can even know what will happen next?

[ObaMania]

1. Amen Kentuck, amen. n/t

[mcctatas]

2. Why do you hate America???

I agree with you in principle, but I think the problem bush created is more systemic and deeply entrenched in neo-con ideology. There's plenty of blame to go around, bush is evil and responsible, but he is hardly smart enough to have done so much harm all by his little lonesome.

[Beam Me Up]

23. Yes. Not to let the little snot off the hook, but lets tell it like it is.

Bush is NOTHING without the neoCONs. They have used him mercilessly and his daddy has allowed them to do it because it was in HIS interest, and Carlyle's interest and the Saudi's interest to do so. That's how heartless these criminal types are.

[Peter Frank]

28. Give Me a Friggin' break!...

He's dumb enough to trust his puppeteers.

[Faygo Kid]

3. You are right. Except about him as a "decision maker."

I have dumb friends. I am dumb. But none of us are as dumb as this idiot selected by Rove and the Far Right, including Cheney, to be driven to the presidency. And I am beginning to think that Martial Law was their plan all along. W. may yet die a "hero" in an unfortunate incident, and his legacy will be the Neocon military control of America. Maybe too late in the evening; would make a good thriller novel. Or I die in the camps.

[tx_dem41]

4. The riots in France have nothing to do with Bush...

and AQ was bombing before Bush was in office. I will agree that invading Iraq does no good in the "War on Terror" and in fact has done harm. But, I'll put the blame on AQ or AQ operatives squarely.

[The_Mule]

44. I've been thinking a lot lately about the origins of AQ.

So, let me ask you, when was the first time you heard of AQ? Do you have any information or theories on AQ's beginning?

Don't worry, this isn't a loaded question - I won't flame you. I'm seriously just getting people's opinions about AQ and their beginning.

[itzamirakul]

54. Al Quaida is probably a myth...a made-up name for a made-up enemy

that acts as a cover for the neocons and some others to grab land, oil, etc.

It is so useful, along with bird flu, dirty bombs, widely organized "terror cells" manned by people wearing turbans and robes who hate us because we are rich. (sarcasm)

I no longer believe there IS such a thing as Al Quaide other than in the minds and imaginations of BushCo.

[SammyWinstonJack]

5. Eight years of actually trying for a more peaceful world, down the

drain with George W Bush in five short or long ( how ever it affected you)years. Hey value voters, do ya feel safer now, well do ya? :banghead:

[Gildor Inglorion]

12. Hey, now...be fair! At least queers still can't get married except in MA

and abortion is on the way out. What else matters, I ask you?

[SammyWinstonJack]

13. Yay! Queers and *baby killers*. It's enough to turn me!

:silly:

[geek tragedy]

6. I stubbed my toe this morning. I blame Bush. eom

[in_cog_ni_to]

7. Pandora's Box! HE opened it

and HE and HE alone is responsible for everything that results from that. Bastard. Have I told you yet tonight how much I hate that man? :grr:

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

8. I agree, but there are those that will not

I remember a few years ago when Will Pitt posted a thread similar to this. It was after some hostage was beheaded, and he said pretty much the same thing: the blood is on Bush's hands. The thread got quite ugly at times, and I think it was locked, and possibly deleted.
Several posters said, No, it's on the hands of the murderers, period.
But they forgot one very, very import thing: this shit is not born in a vacuum. People didn't wake up one day and decide "I'm going to blow up the Earth." (Well, Marvin the Martian did, but he had a good reason, I guess...)

Cause and effect, baby. Cause and effect.

[fooj]

34. Actions have consequences.

Peace.

[Mz Pip]

9. Uh huh sure

If there were never any terrorist attacks in the world prior to BushCo then I might agree. Sorry, but I just don't. I do not believe these crack pots really give a rat's ass who sits in the WH. They have their own agenda and it isn't all about us or about Bush.

I have a gazillion reasons to hate Bush but I dpo not believe he is responsible for every bad thing that has happened in the world since he became president. He may not be helping matters much but these people act on their own. US foreign policy does not hold a gun to their heads.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[AntiFascist]

33. Neocons have been plotting to take control since the end of the Cold War..

Bush I's war in Iraq was an exceedingly powerful demonstration of what could be achieved. I believe the CIA calls the terrorism Blowback.

[wisteria]

10. I agree with you entirely!

I hope we don't have to hear the infamous statement, "we are fighting them over there so that we don't have to fight them over here" statement. What a defense for a inexcusable, poorly orchestrated invasion of a country that has created so much instability and terrorists in the Middle East. It's ok if other countries become the targets of the terrorists as long as were "safe".

[az chela]

11. you said ,It I was thinking it.

I couldnt agree with you more.If they dont get those people out of the white house none of us are safe.Thank you for saying exactly what I thought all day!!!

[donheld]

14. Right you are

:yourock:

[radwriter0555]

15. uh NO, Paris' crazy kids had nothing to do with bush. That was kids being

kids with no political agenda.

But the rest, yeah, you're right.

bush blows bad.

[hopeisaplace]

16. destabilization of the western world

is a dangerous game to play, and it pisses me off that russian roulette is being played with our planet

When the US loses "the good guy image" (I know, some think it never was)...it's not a good thing for anyone. I have never in my life been as concerned as I am now for the direction this world is headed. Only one thing gives me hope, and that one thing is "truth".
I hope "truth" wins. I wanna believe that truth WILL win.

[kentuck]

17. Truth will prevail.

Have faith.

[hopeisaplace]

19. thanks, I still do :)

"hope is a place" ..I hope.

[SammyWinstonJack]

18. absolute power corrupts absolutely, or something like that.

Hope floats and truth prevails.

[Beam Me Up]

21. That is correct, no "tends" about it.

"Power tends to corrupt; absolute power corrupts absolutely."

http://www.bartleby.com/59/13/powertendsto.html

[SammyWinstonJack]

22. Hey!

:hi:

[Beam Me Up]

25. Back at ya.

Thanks :hi:

[Beam Me Up]

20. OUR LIVES ARE IN DANGER With this Administration in Office.

That is NOT an exaggeration.

That is NOT a joke.

It is a statement of FACT.

The people in positions of power in our country are 1) criminal and 2) paranoid. On top of that they are devious and posses vast stock piles of weapons of mass destruction.

They are not to be trusted. Not at all.

[Peter Frank]

38. Exactly...

...I feel far less safe because of the actions of this administration than before.

This administration has managed to combine the very worst elements of fear into one directive -- "Turn America Into a war machine"

The "Bush Doctrine" ...(if you're not with us you're against us) -- what a crock of plagerism of the Bible!

Jesus said, "If you're not with me, you're against me." Regardless of religion, you must admit that it's quite a stretch for Bush to assume the mantle of Jesus Christ (for God's sake)!

[TankLV]

24. Very profound and astute. I heartily concurr.

[applegrove]

26. No - bin Laden & his ilk have been bombing the mid east for 20 years.

They just stopped that (because somehow it didn't garner them the hoards of middle eastern supporters they thought it would ????) and started attacking the US & the West in the mid 1990s. Probably now that the West is locked down and it is pretty risky for anyone with "ties" to travel there - they are back to attacking in the mid east - only now it is Western Targets in the mid east.

[Stand and Fight]

27. I could not disagree with you more.

It is such a sad cop out to try to blame George the Lesser for everything. He has screwed up on a lot of fronts, but let's not get ridiculous here -- he is not connected to the trouble in France or Jordan.

He has been a rotten president, but the bombings in Paris had NOTHING to do with his actions. The riots in Paris have absolutely NOTHING to do with Bush, and it is a logical fallacy to state such a thing and not back it up with facts. The accidental deaths of youth on the parts of French policemen are the cause of the debacle in France. Not George Bush.

Quite frankly, the suicide bombings in Jordan had NOTHING to do with his actions either. Such things have been going on for years before the Bush snatched the presidency. Suicide bombs in Iraq? Yes. Prior to Bush's failed Iraq war policy there were few, if any, suicide bombings in Iraq. To say he is to blame for the instances of such in the Holy Land -- Jordan in this case -- is a load of baloney.

Let's not become foolish like the FReepers and relate everything bad that happens to Bush as they do with Clinton. Let's take the responsible course and assign blame where blame is do and talk about reality.

Your statement is neither profound nor astute. It is a study in misplaced blame and questionable logic. Let's focus on the real issues and how we can turn the victories of yesterday into victories in 2006 and 2008. We're not going to do that by erecting fantasy scenarios and assigning blame where none is due. There's plenty of blame that can go on the plates of Bush and Republicans -- let's make sure we're accurate and realistic.

One last point... Sometimes I wish we could counter by un-recommending a thread. This is one thread that I feel will only serve to deflect from the real issues at hand, and it would be nice if there were a way to counteract its effect.

Flame away.

[AntiFascist]

39. The facts show otherwise...

I agree that you may have a point with the Paris riots, but Al-Qaida is now taking credit for the Jordon bombings:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051110/ap_on_re_mi_ea/jordan_explosion


The claim of responsibility, signed in the name of the spokesman for the group Al-Qaida in Iraq, said that "after studying and watching the targets, places were chosen to carry out an attack on some hotels that the tyrant of Jordan has made the backyard garden for the enemy of religion: Jews and crusaders" — a stock term for Westerners.


They call us "crusaders" because of our continuing war efforts.

Maybe I shouldn't be linking to Yahoo News, it could be a conspiracy site.

[Danger Duck]

50. Al-Qaida takes credit....

and * is responsible? Bush is an ineffective leader, and an ass puppet. But he's not responsible for some maniac murdering people in Jordan. If you're going to blame Bush for that, lets get to the rood cause. let's blame his parents for his lousy upbringing. And let's balme the corrupt government and country that provided the Bush family with such wealth. And what nation was crucial in helping the United States win the revolution? France. SO in reality, this is all the fault of the French and their so called age of enlightment.

[AntiFascist]

57. well, democracy may have its problems...

but as far as I can tell, the right wing wants to roll back the enlightenment together with the jihadists.

[Dances with Cats]

29. Hello

Well hello Democratic Underground I guess. I feel like a "bandwagon jumper" GOP is drowning in its own sh*y. And I'm loving it!

[Stand and Fight]

30. Hello, Dances with Cats.

:toast:Welcome to DU!:toast:

[Dances with Cats]

32. thanks

I'll mostly just sit and listen for a while. I think I like it here. And the Wellstone photo? You rock. I wish he'd never gotten on that plane.....

[Stand and Fight]

35. You're not the only one who feels that way about Wellstone.

The day this country lost Paul Wellstone was a day that I think few outside of the progressive community fully comprehend. There are few events that I would risk changing if I could -- Wellstone's untimely death is among them. He should serve as a model for what a Democrat should strive to be.

You will like it here a great deal. DUers are among the finest people that I have ever met online. Since I live in a predominantly Republican area, DU has helped to maintain my sanity and keep me abreast of news that matters to the liberal community.

[Dances with Cats]

36. Reply

Thanks for the kind words....we could sure use Paul now that his former colleaquges have suddenly grown some cajones. And to think that Minnesota now has Norm Coleman (or is that Jack Nicholsons "Joker" from Batman I)???
I, too, live in teh bowels of a red state but am always steeled for the fight. I think our signature lines dovetail nicely, by the way...

[Stand and Fight]

41. You're very welcome...

I have to say that DC would be even more interesting if Wellstone was still around. The Democrats in the Senate would surely have more backbone than they seem to have recently developed. Imagine Harry Reid and Paul Wellstone on the attack! Boggles the mind.

Yes, it's important that we are all "steeled" for a fight, as progressive values have been under attack lately. To quote George the Lesser, "Bring it on."

Christ a progressive? For sure! He'd not approve of the religious extremism that is taking hold in America now.

[Dances with Cats]

59. Hi Stand and Fight

thanks for the kind words and making a newbie feel welcome.
Dances w/ Kitties

[northzax]

31. no, the riots in Paris

have more to do with Katrina than Bush. He was just the spark. It turns out, when you treat an entire group of people as economic second-class citizens for thirty years, they get really pissed off at you. Katrina exposed three centuries of it, in Paris it dates to the Battle of Algiers.

[undergroundpanther]

37. But Why??

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5318954

[Festivito]

40. Apocalypse by destabilization to consolidate power...

...and to maintain that power. That's the why.

I would think the Paris riots are from this destabilization. From fewer jobs, less money for the lowest levels of society, which eminates from the CONs.

The current Jordan bombings could eminate from the CONs. Too early to state it for certain. It'll trickle out.

[mike_c]

42. I respectfully disagree about the riots in France....

But otherwise I agree with you.

[kentuck]

43. A fish rots from the head first...

As some DUers have argued, this is not just George W Bush, but the entire neocon agenda. That is true, but when you have a leader so arrogant, so blissfully ignorant, so recklessly dangerous, we cannot help but to blame the person in charge. Without Bush's approval or his signature, the crap that has been going on does not happen.

Like the butterfly that flaps its wings in Fallujah, we do not know if the riots in Paris are connected to other Muslim outbreaks of violence in other parts of the world. We do not know if Bush and his crowd did something to provoke 9/11. We do not know if the car bombs in Baghdad are because of the actions of Bush and the Neocons. But we can guess.

[seabeyond]

45. ya well, i cant go that far kentuck. i certainly know bush has fucked up

the world. but i cna go to those individual blames. i can give france dont doing a good job intergating the immigrants. andi cna go for the asshole that is just ugly, in the murder of those people in jordian. fundamentalism is just that i dont care if it is bush, dodson, or that guy. i dont like any of it, i decry all of it.

but youa re certainly right.....

Who can even know what will happen next?

[undergroundpanther]

46. A very intersting link to Bush and Alqueda

We have seen that, thanks to al Qaeda, U.S. bases have sprung up close to oilfields and pipelines in Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Georgia, and Kosovo. And as Michael Klare has noted,
Already troops from the Southern Command (Southcom) are helping to defend Colombia’s Cano Limón pipeline….Likewise, soldiers from the European Command (Eurcom) are training local forces to protect the newly constructed Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline in Georgia….Finally, the ships and planes of the U.S. Pacific Command (Pacom) are patrolling vital tanker routes in the Indian Ocean, South China Sea, and the western Pacific….Slowly but surely, the U.S. military is being converted into a global oil-protection service.



http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/~pdscott/AAAChap9aAzerb.htm

[undergroundpanther]

47. more

http://bitterfact.tripod.com/afghan/bushandoil1.html

[undergroundpanther]

48. another link looking at the ties that bind

http://bitterfact.tripod.com/afghan/bushandoil1.html

[Danger Duck]

49. Right. Rioters aren't responsible for their own actions.

Come on. Bush sucks, but how do you blame him for unemployment and intolerance in France? They forbid head covering for crying out loud.

[kentuck]

51. How about the riots in Argentina ??

Do you think they would have happened if not for the catalyst, Bush?

[Danger Duck]

55. I don't think anyone, anywhere likes Bush. Maybe in hell...

but Bush doesn't cause riots wherever he goes, so there have to be some X factors in Argentina, eh? I think they have very high unemployment, about twenty percent. Poverty seems to be the common thread in rioting and most violent behavior.

And if you want to play the six degrees of Kevin Bacon, you can link Bush to almost any event. But ultimately, people are responsible for their own actions, even rioters.

[kentuck]

60. Yes, and he had nothing to do with Abu Graib either...

It was just those Privates with too much time on their hands...

[Danger Duck]

61. I agree

he had nothing to do with Abu Graib. How could he? Blame the soldiers who did the "torture", not the President who was "elected".

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

52. But..but..we're spreading democracy..with white phospherous and torture.

How dare those people not appreciate the efforts to "help them" so courageously sent by a bunch of neo-colonialist chickenhawks.

[bloom]

53. While I see much is connected...

And BushCo has created much chaos - so that has to be taken into account - there are other factors - This was discussed on Democracy Now yesterday - reasons for the riots...

BEHZAD YAGHMAIAN: Yes. In my opinion, at the heart of the riots in France are France's post-colonial and migration policy and the failure of the republic to deliver to the public liberty, fraternity and equality. But similar problems exist across Europe, actually. There is a migration crisis in Europe that has been growing extensively in the past few years. And sooner or later there's a potential and possibility of same types of riots and uprising occurring in different places.

In France, what we have been seeing is a combination of class, ethnicity, race and religion and cultural dimensions that gave rise to the riots that we have seen now. Of course, the comments by the Interior Minister ignited the riots, but there were deep-rooted causes that brought about the continuation of the riots: The alienation of the youth, the -- France has continued to look at the post-colonial subjects as colonial subjects. That is, migrants from Algeria and other parts of Africa that were controlled by France are still considered as non-French, although they carry French documents, and that is reflected in the way they are treated economically, socially and politically.

And in the past few years in France, in the past ten years and in other parts of Europe, perhaps less, there has been a religious component added to that; that is, Islam and the association of every Muslim man with potential terrorism. That is, to be a person carrying an Arabic name and being a Muslim, you are automatically a potential terrorist. And that suspicion and fear is not only a fear and suspicion that is ignited by the authorities, but also by the media and by the public at large. <more>

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/11/09/1538216

It wouldn't surprise me if the corporate media was avoiding all this - because people might get the idea that riots could start here as a result of BushCo - because of similar reasons.


The section on the 1966 film movie Battle of Algiers was also interesting...

"The Battle of Algiers" was nominated for three Academy Awards. But the film was banned in France for many years following its release.

In 2003, the film again made the news after the Pentagon offered a screening just months after the United States declared the war against Iraq officially over. A flyer for the screening stated the following: "How to win a battle against terrorism and lose the war of ideas. Children shoot soldiers at point-blank range. Women plant bombs in cafes. Soon the entire Arab population builds to a mad fervor. Sound familiar? The French have a plan. It succeeds tactically, but fails strategically. To understand why, come to a rare showing of this film."

Now, parallels are being drawn between the French use of torture in 1950s Algeria and the US abuse of prisoners in Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo Bay.

This is a scene of a press conference where the Algerian resistance fighter, Ben M’Hidi, is answering questions from reporters.

REPORTER: Mr. Ben M’Hidi, isn't it a filthy thing to use women's baskets to carry explosives for killing people?

LARBI BEN M’HIDI: Doesn't it seem even filthier to drop napalm bombs on defenseless villages, wreaking even greater havoc? It would be better if we, too, had planes. Give me the bombers, and you can have the baskets.

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/11/09/1538221

[madokie]

56. There may be truer words written but I ain't read 'em lately

and the bastard could care less. now thats the scary part.

[wiggs]

58. Like it. Seems obvious. Would like our dem leaders to start saying it.

No reason why dems can't start placing blame where it belongs, and doing so on the floor of congress and in print. Some have...time to do more.