U.S. tells North Korea to stop reactor now

[NNN0LHI]

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/PEK69192.htm

BEIJING, Nov 10 (Reuters) - North Korea must halt its nuclear weapons programme now to show it is taking negotiations on disarmament seriously, the United States said on Thursday on the second day of six-party talks in Beijing.

But North Korean delegates were quoted by a source close to the talks as saying they had no "will" to negotiate with the United States, Japan's Kyodo news agency said.

Negotiators said the three-day session would focus on the logistics of further bargaining after a framework for disarmament was agreed in September, but the perennial issue remains trust between the two main protagonists, Washington and Pyongyang.

"You know how you build up trust? You live up to the agreement ... You can build up trust through actions," chief U.S. negotiator Christopher Hill told reporters.

[xchrom]

1. u.s. tells world --

''blah blah blah blah....''

[tx_dem41]

2. More like,...North Korea tells the six nations that they have been..

negotiating with..."We were lying and can't be trusted".

If you want to cheer for N. Korea because you think it makes Bush look bad, be my guest. Its a dangerous and silly little game you play.

[jsamuel]

3. I thought he was just saying that no one listens to us anymore...

could be wrong.

[xchrom]

10. you could be -- but you're not.

:hi:

[endarkenment]

4. Why exactly are we allowed to have over 2000 deployed nukes

capable of striking anywhere on the planet within minutes, and yet other nations are not allowed to have any?

Why is Israel allowed to flagrantly violate the nonproliferation treaty, yet North Korea must be punished for its violations?

Why is Iran also treated differently than Israel?

Why is Saudi Arabia' secret nuke program off the table, never mentioned, ignored?

Why did the Bush administration openly violate international treaty obligations by sharing nuclear technology with NPT violator India?

Why have there been no sanctions at all against NPT violator Pakistan?

Do you think that perhaps Iran and North Korea are justified in thinking that a double standard exists, that our stance is hypocritical and self serving?

Nobody here is 'cheering for North Korea', however North Korea has the right of all sovereign nations to self defense.

[Caution]

6. I'll agree that those who violate the NPT should be subject to sanction

as much as North Korea, but to say that it is OK for them to pursue nuclear weapons in the name of sovereign defense flies in the face of the very reason for the NPT. Should all nations simply drop their obligation?

[endarkenment]

24. We can't have it both ways.

The whole concept of NPT is bogus. Why should the weak disarm while the strong remain fully armed? If we were serious we would apply NPT not only to all nations outside of Russia China France England and the US, but to the gang of five as well.

So to answer your question, I'll take the unpopular position here. Yes, every nation has the sovereign right to arm itself in defense, and that includes arming themselves with nukes.

[Caution]

26. So if all nations have nuclear arms

A nuclear attack is only prevented at the whim of the least insane of world leaders?

I'll take hte otehr side and call for complete nuclear disarmament thanks. In the meantime the best we have is the NPT and countries that sign on to it should be required to stick to their obligations under that treaty.

[endarkenment]

27. I'm all in favor of full disarmament.

But why would Iran or North Korea, after watching what we did to Iraq, give up the only defense they have against our imperial might?

Without all of us giving up nukes, or without a true international framework where all nations respect and participate in international treaties and processes as equals, I see no reason why Israel, India, Pakistan, Iran, North Korea and most likely Saudi Arabia ought to not defend themselves as they see fit.

We've abandoned international institutions. We disparage and ignore the United Nations, refuse to join the world court, and force status of forces agreements on nation after nation to put our military outposts outside any international law. We act unilateraly and with contempt for world opinion. In such a climate, once again, why would the smaller nations with the technology to do so NOT seek to protect themselves from our power?

[Caution]

29. Which is why we as responsible citizens of this country should

work even harder to throw the fuckers who continue to push us down this path out of office. But even with these people in office I'm not going to sit here and rpetend it is OK for the countires you just mentioned to create nuclear weapons for "self-defense" (they are by nature anything but defensive weapons, this was a complete horseshit argument created to jusitfy the build up of nuclear weaopns in the era of mutually assured destruction as if that was ever a good defensive idea!).

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

13. Because life isn't fair. n/t

[endarkenment]

20. That isn't the point.

The point is that we are just using the NPT as a club to bash nations we happen to not like. We violate international treaties as we see fit, and sanctimoniously invoke them when it suits our purposes. And then we wonder why we are despised.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

21. I understand that and agree that its bullshit.

Nonetheless, I don't want North Korea to have nukes, and I'm not overly concerned about the US or Western Europe having them.

[endarkenment]

25. Well to state the obvious

the only nation on earth that has ever used nuclear weapons is our republic.

[Caution]

5. Cheers!

It's for crap like that which causes freepers and the like to be able to cherry pick posts to paint liberals as "america haters" There is basically no-one who would argue that North Korea is not a rogue state. I would personally have been a lot more comfortable had Bush chosen Korea as a target for his war since we know for an absolute fact that North Korea is attempting to create a long-range nuclear weapon.

Bush's policies suck, but that doesn't mean North Korea is somehow a nation to be admired.

[NNN0LHI]

7. We knew for an absolute "fact" that...

...Iraq was attempting to create a long-range nuclear weapon too. My government told me so. And my government would never lie about such things. Honest.

And we had lots of people on this board trying to convince us it was a "fact" too. Most of those posters have since left DU.

Don

[Caution]

22. The difference here is that North Korea is actively

telling us that they are pursuing such things and have conducted long range missile tests. Iraq claimed to be in comliance and inspectors backed that up. North Korea actively claims to have nuclear weapons.

[endarkenment]

8. "I would personally have been a lot more comfortable had Bush chosen Korea

Then you have learned nothing in the last four years.

North Korea has not harmed or attacked us. North Korea has done nothing to deserve the 'Shock and Awe' of our imperial might. Hundreds of thousands of innocent people, perhaps millions, would die in such an unprovoked assault.

[Caution]

23. Notice my wording. I would have been "more" comfortable.

This is not the same as "we should have attacked North Korea"

At the very least North Korea has claimed to have nuclear weapons and have tested long range missiles (though NOT inter-continental). They actively take a very confrontational manner in all diplomatic dealings and have backed out multiple times from agreements they have made. In the category of rogue states North Korea comes at the top.

Now, does this justify pre-emptive military action? Tough to say but an argument can be made that North Korea actually poses a real and present danger whereas Iraq was harmless.

Sounds to me like you have learned the *wrong* lesson. There are actually groups out there that actively wish to inflict harm upon the United States and our citizens and our government is obligated to protect us. Do we act improperly? All the time. Has the Bush administration committed international crimes? I would agree to this. Shoudl we not be wary of states like North Korea? We must absolutely do what is required to prevent North Korea from ahving the capability of launching a nuclear attack. What is that requirement? Beats the hell out of me but at some point there will be internation consensus about North korea's continued refusal to become a responsible member of the world community. This is probably also true of the United States under the Bush administration.

Seeing things in black and white is the very same mistake that our current "leaders" fall into all the time.

[NNN0LHI]

11. Do you really believe that "six nations" stuff?

Like Bush has assembled some huge coalition on our side to whip North Korea into line or something? My impression has been that Russia and China could not care less what North Korea does or doesn't do. I don't believe Russia or China are Americas friends. Do you?

Don

[tx_dem41]

12. I don't think any country is ever a "friend" of another country.

They just share common interests at times. The "six nations" thing is somewhat a piece of puff, but what is true is that China has taken a lead role lately in the negotiations, including the latest round in late September. I don't think they are going to take kindly to N. Korea backtracking.

[NNN0LHI]

16. You don't think China is going to take kindly to N. Korea backtracking?

You are kidding right? China came to North Korea's aid during the Korean War. There wouldn't be any North Korea if it weren't for China. North Korea is a classic Chinese Cold War client state. Weren't you aware of that?

And please don't try to convince me Reagan won the Cold War.

Don

[tx_dem41]

17. Please....you are talking 55 years ago.

Try reading the Asia Times on a daily basis. A great resource.

www.atimes.com

A lot has gone on since the Korean War. Time to catch up!

[NNN0LHI]

18. Those who forget the past are destined to repeat it n/t

[tx_dem41]

19. Those who don't keep up with current events...

are prone to put their foot in their mouth.

I gave you a great resource. Use it.

[Don Claybrook]

28. Too bad we can't do pictograms here

It might be easier to explain. Nonetheless, I'll try:

Saying that the US has lost all moral authority in foreign affairs

is NOT equal to

cheering for the awful regime in North Korea.

See how that works? I'll bet you feel better with this new knowledge.

Thanks.

[architect359]

9. Er,...

"You know how you build up trust? You live up to the agreement ... You can build up trust through actions," chief U.S. negotiator Christopher Hill told reporters."

...and people are supposed to believe that coming from our woefully poor record recently? Our foreign policy efforts have been effectively crippled by what's tantamount to "Do what we say and not what we do".

So much for lead by example.

[ProfessorGAC]

14. Self Delete! Dupe Post

x

[ProfessorGAC]

15. Well, That Ought To Do It!

Why i agree with Hill's sentiment, just telling them isn't going to work. It hasn't worked before, so why would it suddenly start working?

This is just like this crowd to get tough when getting tough is what got them to this stalemate.
The Professor