I believe the Death Penalty says more about "us" than it does "them."

[Lex]

That's why I'm against it, no matter how horrific the criminal is, because the using the Death Penalty says more about US than THEM.

Of course horrible crimes are done by unspeakably bad people and they should be punished (life without possibility of parole, for instance).

But WE shouldn't be in the business of killing someone in cold blood.

And that's why I believe utilizing the Death Penalty says more about US (as a people) then it does THEM (cold blooded killers).

[Broken_Hero]

1. They may, or may not look at it that way...

I for one am for the death penalty...I have talked, debated about this for a while, and when i watched the Life of David Gale, my wife and i had another discussion about the death penalty, and we both came to the same conclusion, we need it.

If someone killed my wife in cold blood...i would want that person to pay for his crime, with his own life. I'm sorry, its just how i feel about it.

[unblock]

4. i would WANT that person to pay, absolutely

i'd want to do it with my own bare hands. but i still don't like the idea of the handing that kind of power over to governments known to be corruptible and error-prone.

to prevent bigger disasters, i would settle for life imprisonment without hope of parole.

[movonne]

5. I might be able to go along with you, but just stop and think how

unfair the death penalty is....just think if you have enough money there is no death penalty (O.J.comes to mind)..

[sam sarrha]

11. it is cheaper to house them for life. the community pays for the trial..

El Paso was about to go broke from death penalty trials.. $3,500,000 for a quick a clean cut and dried case.. some go on for ever, one guy was murdered by Bu$h because his lawyer called none of his 8 witnesses, the court was put in recess 2 times because he came in drunk and he was chastised for disturbing the court by snoring loudly, reports are that he slept thru much of the trial.

[unblock]

2. i say "since when is it a good idea to let gov'ts kill their subjects?"

death penalty advocates like to focus on what the criminal "deserves". that's a red herring. the real question is what powers should we entrust our government with?

[meganmonkey]

6. Very well put.

I shall borrow that one. I am adamantly against the death penalty. It is one of my few 'absolutes'.

:thumbsup:

[Broken_Hero]

7. The real question...

I don't know, I don't see governments as killing the criminals, i see a trial, a jury who convicts...man is sentenced to death...the state kills criminal... I don't know, i'm very open on this, I just can't see the point of having no death penalty...

I hear people say, dont' kill em, it don't solve nothing...and i'm like, by that line of thought, why have any punishment for any crime. Cause i see people steal, they go to jail, yet i still see people who steal...so, ?...

I don't know, but again, i'm very open on this...I have read the Chamber by Grisham, which Grisham is also against the death penalty, but i just can't see eye to eye with him, especially on the Chamber novel, or the Life of David Gale...sorry, i haven't read anything substantial on it, but again, i will be the first to say, i dont' know much about the arguement, or discussion...i'm here to see other points of view/angles of thought....

[sam sarrha]

9. what proof do you have that Death is a penalty, Jesus will just save him

this is just a religious situation where people think god can punish them more than we can..

sorry i will need proof or the death penalty is unusual and cruel.. I really want them to suffer actually.. except the average error in conviction shows that about 17% are Innocent and in Texas probably 25 or 30%..

[Broken_Hero]

12. Well...?

you need proof of what?...exactly? That the death penalty works? I don't know if it works, it works for me though, i know if i kill someone, my ass is in the sling, so i guess in that regarrd, the death penalty would make me think twice about offing somebody.

I dont' know if there is a jesus or any of that, that is a thought for another thread. and Jesus will save him? dont' know where you are going with that, explain a little more please?...:)

[sam sarrha]

15. point is, it Doesn't Work, it is a crime of Passion.. you dont qualify as an

example... and the death penalty has been proved to NOT be a deterrent for about ever.. it doesn't work because the nature of the crime of murder is not usually rational.. people dont think before they do it. if they do.. they think they can get away with it.. it is a mental illness.. the capital crime rate goes up when the death penalty is in effect.. because the criminal will kill the victim to keep from getting caught.

the cruel and unusual clause prevents abuse and revenge, so using that as a guideline, you cant impose a Punishment not relevant to the crime, such as 10 years for J-walking. but what is appropriate.. it is a victomless crime.. it cost me $25.. and it worked.
the stats show the death penalty doesn't work.. so it isn't a penalty. what other proof do you want.. is the proof it prevents other crimes of that nature?? or just that you feel good he got what was coming to him.. that is sick.. and unusual, you killed a man for pleasure.?

where is the scientific proof it is punishment, the subject is dead and you have no data.. end of story. killing is killing whether you or they do it. if you support it and a prisoner in custody is executed you are part of that death and should die yourself for murder.

saying it is a deterrent for you is like saying, people drown in water, and you say i have been in the water and i didn't drown, but you can swim... catch my drift. you dont qualify, you are short sighted and morally myopic

we are talking about broken people, you apparently so far are not broken.. but a few more posts and we may find out.

[Broken_Hero]

16. thanks for insulting me pal...

I see why this subject is such a brick wall...thanks for showing me that...:) later....

[sam sarrha]

20. i really dont see how i insulted you.. no insult intended.. and i dont see

it as a brick wall,

I posit that there is not proof it is a punishment.

you are supposed to prove it is... if you disagree. if it is a brick wall then simply you cant argue your side that it is.. and i win.

i have Aspergers Syndrome, a form of Autism, i think in terms of concepts and metaphor, i am totally right brain dominant. dont be offended, i put things together to understand them and left brain people take them apart to understand them.. translating can be a problem.

[Broken_Hero]

23. Okay...

saying it is a deterrent for you is like saying, people drown in water, and you say i have been in the water and i didn't drown, but you can swim... catch my drift. you dont qualify, you are short sighted and morally myopic...

How am i suppose to see this as NOT an insult? Tell me? I can argue, but you insulted me, and i don't argue with people who have blinders on...:) And if they do jump in that water, and can't swim they have to live with the consequences....


where is the scientific proof it is punishment, the subject is dead and you have no data.. end of story

To answer this, how do you have scientific data, that talks to dead people, to ask them, "hey if you had a chance to do it over again, and kill, knowing you would die from it, would you do it again?" So I hit the ball back to you on that issue, i have seen no scientific data, you have shown me none, you have linked nothing to it, so to me right now, you are blowing hurricane forced rhetoric at me and to throw it back at you, you have no scientfic data to prove that its death ISNT a punishment, unless you can talk with the dead.

or just that you feel good he got what was coming to him.. that is sick.. and unusual, you killed a man for pleasure.?

So, I am a sick, unusual man, and i would kill a man for pleasure? Please, get off the high horse for second, please. So, I'm a sick, and unusual because I want people to be held responsible for their actions? I'm sick and unusual because of what some other SICK/TWISTED man/woman did(the OP story)?? So, now its all my fault that a sick/twisted man committed murder?...please...

I basically disagree, capital crime is done without thinking at all..

And that is a weak argument...Capital crime is done with a lot of thinking...you seem to lump killers into a big group of peopel who are broken/sick....which i agree with, they are broken/sick, but that doesn't not make them IMMUNE to the death penalty. I have seen cases, where murders plan their crimes down to a tee, which shows motive...i see that with Bank Robbers also.

In short, arguing with you over this, is making no sense to me, just trying to read your posts is somewhat difficult...you make arguments that make no sense"like you have no scientific proof that death is a penalty"....well, unless you can talk to the dead, YOU don't have any scientific proof that its ISNT.

And if you thought/think you won the arguement, okay *pins medal on you* you win!...:)

[sam sarrha]

24. it is myopic to justify killing a prisoner in custody..it is torture to

house them in a tinny dank cell saying they can appeal for 10 years, but in places like Texas there is no appeal, and no retrial for errors made in court, the appeals courts are 6 figure jobs, if a judged allows an appeal he loses his job and is replaced by a judge who wont.

the error rate is about 12% to 17% for killing innocent people,
much higher in TX, the pResident killed 152 people on the Myopic moral theology that god would sort them out..i kid you not!!! he said it. not in those exact words, but to answer the "Error" question he said that 'justice' had been done and *error wise* it was in the hands of god. ..you cant use Prrentice's 'spl' here, got to use '*' or get a stupid smilie..

this is a slippery slope. people are being killed confined in a place where they can no longer harm the general population, it costs more than double to kill them than to house them, they should be housed in a prison separated form others.

this is a moral issue, and you are saying since your morals prevent you from killing you are "Projecting" into a situation you do not understand. I have worked in the Justice System, a lot if not Very Many of these people are poor and uneducated..and Colored, they have suffered abuse as children, they became broken and most can NOT be fixed..

what i was saying was that it is myopic, shortsighted.. because the problem is complex and a simple **Personal** observation/conclusion, that is moral statement.. is frequently an injustice to others..

the metaphor of the drowning man is a good one, and is why the Blacks hate whitety... we just dont get it.. and impose our ignorance on others and cause massive suffering..

any statement that sounds good must bereviewed relative to its consequences, i use reflixive reasioning, 'relative to everything else'.. the problem with the Christian Riech is that they never see beyond their own tribal Dogma.. the problem with and eye for an eye is that pretty soon everybody is blind.

there is no 'getting even', there is no differince between us and others except circumstance.. we are all one.

[unblock]

18. in order for the "death penalty to work for you",...

if we're talking about the deterent effect of the death penalty, then in order for it to "work", it has to deter someone who would not have been deterred by life imprisonment.

i am sure that the prospect of death would deter you from crime, but so would the prospect of life imprisonment. in fact, i would assume that mere morality would be enough to deter you from crime. but in order to be of deterrent value, there needs to be at least some people out there for whom life imprisonment is not a deterrent, yet death is.

the threat of death during the crime and/or arrest is far more real and imminent than the prospect of death after a lengthy judicial process. life imprisonment generally seems to strike more fear into would-be and actual criminals than the death penalty.


that said, there are certainly many on both sides of this issue.

[Broken_Hero]

19. Thank you for discussing that...

At last, a post that doesn't insult, what joy...:) I didn't know there was such an indepth arguement about Deterence/deterent. I was looking at it, well, you know..i posted it, it would deter me, because i wouldn't want to die from kiling someone else...but what if you have a penalty on robbign banks, that if they rob a bank they would die, would that then, be a deterent for people who would rob banks? before introducing death for the crime, crimianls are more apt for it, and after the death for bank robbing law is passed, and bank robbers think twice..is that a deterent? I know its a BIG what if, scenario..but would the death penalty for bank robbers, than be a deterant? nice talking with you, i like open ended debates!...:)

[sam sarrha]

22. it is unusual for a crime against property to be capital, therefore Moot.

[sam sarrha]

21. I basically disagree, capital crime is done without thinking at all..

there is a lot of ego/self involved.. i believe that most murders are involved with alcohol/anger..

someone who would feel they did not want to die or spend life in prison.. isn't someone who would something like that. it is more like the the person who doesn't think at all but reacts in a blind rage fit of temper tantrum.. like the guy i work with.. whose days are numbered...

he just snaps at the most absurd things, in a blind violent rage..
later he does reflect on it but not at the moment.. then he wants to kiss-up to keep from losing his job.

reflection after the fact wont mean much standing in front of a judge facing 15 to 20 years, or lying in a shallow grave as the brothers of the girl, he beat up, are throwing dirt on him..
and this is eminent..he wont live to see 30. i am surprised someone hasn't popped a cap up his ass already.

[RaleighNCDUer]

13. For a moment, take a look at it this way --

The government sanctions killing people. The government prosecutors are allowed to eliminate from jury consideration anyone who is morally opposed to the death penalty -- logic says that those who remain are predisposed to the use of the death penalty. The government assigns their most experienced prosecutors to death penalty cases -- defense in most death penalty cases falls to inexperienced or incompetent defense attorneys because there is seldom any prestige or money to be gained be defending murderers. The government has virtually unlimited resources to expend in prosecuting their case; the defense, in most capital cases being the public defender, have extremely limited budgets.

With these advantages, it is astonishing that 12 unbiased jurors ever fail to convict. And yet, the danger of potential aquittals has caused overzealous prosecutors to withhold evidence, use false testimony, bribe prisoners with sweetheart deals for testifying against their suspect time and time again, resulting is such travesties as 13 of 25 Illinois death row inmates having their convictions overturned.

And don't forget, for every person falsely convicted there is a murderer out there on the loose.

Death penalty proponants always say that those released from death row prove that the system works, that innocents are not executed. But since the state virtually never cooperates on case reviews after executions how can we know it has never happened?

The death penalty is not a deterent. It is, in fact, an escape. Many convicted killers have waived appeals because they would rather be dead than spend 20, 30, 50 years in a cell. Why give them what they want?

Just a couple thoughts on the subject.

[Broken_Hero]

14. I can see your point, i really do.

People dying, who are innocent, and the might of government against a criminal/innocent victim. And death is pretty damn final when you execute someone who was innocent, can't bring them back.

I just dont' see the train of thought quitting with the death penalty...if they say its bad, dont' work, doesn't deter, etc etc...the same can be said of drugs, of thieves, abusers...they prevention programs, the punishments for those criimes don't seem to deter anything either...or can the same argument agaisn the death penalty work against other criminals? I'm not sure...

I'm open like i said, my gut feeling if some sick man offed my wife in cold blood, I would be seeing red for a long time...but againn, i know that the death of the person who killed my wife wouldn't brign her back...maybe its just the sense of revenge, or retribution...but its a hard thought to escape from...i all ready have these thoughts about it, let alone living it in "reality"..... If something like that happened in real life, i ahve no idea how i would act...and i'm being quite honest in that...its just good getting other ideas on it...:)

[G_j]

25. thank you

Correct! That is the REAL issue, and I for one think it is totally inappropriate for a government to have that power.

[unpossibles]

3. I hesitantly agree but am undecided on this

while there are crimes that are so heinous that it makes your blood boil and creates the mob rule anger that screams for revenge, I don't think it's good for society.

I do go back and forth on this issue, to be fair, however. I think there are some criminals that I do not personally feel deserve to live. That said, I think there should be better solutions than more death and have a problem with murder being done in our names.

Historically, an eye for an eye has never solved anything, has it? Sure it makes you feel a little better for a brief time, but it doesn't undo the crime.

I don't know.




on a lighter note, if we kill the killers, should we get the drug users high? sorry...

[sam sarrha]

8. there is no scientific or other proof that Death is a Penalty of any sort.

and there are no "Bad" people, there are 'broken' people,some are so broken they must never allowed in the general society again. violence as well as child molestation is a vicious cycle, the victims become the abusers and 1/3 of children are abused in this Christian Family Value society.

I am very concerned about politicians promising to kill prisoners in custody if they are elected.. this amounts to a blood sacrifice if elected. regardless of the fact that the death penalty has been proved to NOT be a deterrent to murder or violent crime.. actually it frequently results in a higher murder rate.

there is a genetic link to many of those who commit horrific violent crime. but the information is with held because it would be misunderstood and manipulated by the uninformed. A simple pin-prick blood test at birth could tell if that baby needed special attention and anger management training early in life and as the child grows up it would be counseled and led toward careers suitable for that personality. it is a very small percentage of the prison population that commits the greatest percentage of the violent crimes. the drug trade for instance could be nearly eliminated if forced drug tests were enforced.. i believe it was something like 3 or 7% of the parole population was responsible for ~80% of the drug sales and shipments.

prisons are now a For Profit Industry.. campaign contributions will result in more draconian laws so the Fascist corporatists can make more money.

[Lexingtonian]

10. If you look at how an American execution is carried out

(or, for that matter, almost any formally government-decided execution, worldwide) it invariably follows a stark, ritual, set of patterns.

In anthropology these rituals and patterns are those of ritual murders. These invariably have a theology of Death being the individually greatest deity or most important aspect of the one deity.

That is the great spiritual/religious obscenity of 'the death penalty'.

Ritual murder is irreconcilable with the Bible and the Bible's core assertion of its God as Life, as Inward Becoming. 'Choose Life, not Death' in Leviticus is not a throwaway trivium, it's a commandment to resist the worst temptation men undergo in their worst hours to raise Death to be their deity and make homicide and suicide the currency of living.

As for the people who want to deprive a murderer of his life...burning down an arsonist's house or shack does about the same. In a world overwhelmed by pathology and insanity and brutishness, a world of barbarism intent on achieving suicide, maybe it's only way to enable civilization. But where civilization is strong the participation in murder, any murder, is descent and selfdefeat.

Barbarism vs civilization. Death vs Life. Choose wisely.

[Midlodemocrat]

17. VA may execute #1000 this month.

:eyes:

Great to live in the Old Dominion.

Link to article:

http://www.timesdispatch.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=RTD%2FMGArticle%2FRTD_BasicArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1128768059494&path=%21news&s=1045855934842