Do you think everyone has an equal chance to become successful?

[conflictgirl]

In recent months, I've found myself in the middle of debates about whether or not everyone has the same opportunities to make successful lives for themselves. Many people - even those who otherwise considered themselves liberal - believe that if you're poor, it's your fault because of bad choices. I've never had a full-time job that paid more than $10 an hour, and several people (who live in other cities) expressed outright disbelief that I could've made so little because their preteen kids make more than that *babysitting*.

I don't believe that everyone starts life with the same advantages, or that the same options exist to all of us. But many people think that if you're unable to change your circumstances, it's because you didn't try hard enough. So I thought I'd pose the question here: how much control does a person have over the circumstances of their life and does everyone have the same opportunities in America? And maybe a better question - can a person still be "liberal" if they believe that the poor are only poor because of their own bad choices?

[NorCalDem]

1. NO

edited to add that anyone who believes otherwise is either stupid, or downright mean-spirited.

[World Traveller]

56. I spent 2 weeks with tribal women in Kenya this summer

You're right, the answer is NO.

WHERE you are born and WHO you are born to are 2 biggest determinants of what happens in your life. Fact was really driven home to me this summer, I went to Kenya for 2 weeks with a non-profit, human rights organization that focuses on women's and indigenous rights. We spent most of time in countryside with Samburu, Masai, and Rendille women.

My background: I was born in the US, with some help from my folks I was able to attend state universities for BA and MBA, chose to be single for a long time, married and had my only child in my thirties, while working in MIS, the field of MY choice.

If I had been born a Masai, Samburu, or Rendille woman: I may or may not be literate, I would be married at 14 or so to the man my parents chose for me. My parents would receive a few cows from groom for me, then I would have to go live in husband's village. I would do most of hard physical labor in family, my husband could beat me without any societal reproaches, and I would own NOTHING, all property in family belongs to husband by tradition. If he died (often happens, they marry girls to much older men), his property and my children would belong to my dead husband's family, I would have no right to children if I left. I could never re-marry, except to a bother of dead husband. etc., etc.

Another example: would current president be president if he hadn't been born George BUSH?

[newyawker99]

60. Hi World Traveller!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[raccoon]

82. Or in denial , doesn't think very hard, or Republican. nt

[Zenlitened]

2. "... if you're poor, it's your fault because of bad choices"

Huh?

I've never met a liberal who made that claim.

[Heddi]

5. It's expressed routinely on DU

by thousand-plus point members.

Perhaps they don't use those EXACT words, but the sentiment is the same: If you are poor, it is from lack of planning, lack of resourcefulness, and lack of ambition.

If you are poor because you were a former worker who was laid off and had high medical bills, it's your fault for not planning more carefully and living beyond your means while employed.

I've seen these sentiments expressed NUMEROUS times on this board throughout the years. Of course your claim still stands that no LIBERAL would make these claims....and one has to wonder why a 5,000 post member would make such claims...but alas, they do, and they do often.

[Greyhound]

15. the DLC are Democrats. n/t

[Telly Savalas]

36. That's because DU has become

more of a Bush-hating society than a liberal discussion board.

[Heddi]

39. Well I would go so far as to say that

many of the opinions expressed by DU'ers are the anthesis of liberal thought.

In the past 2 weeks, I've read:

Rape is natural for men (and all males of all species) and should be viewed as a natural occurence
Rape is 'boys being boys'
Having financial problems, regardless of reason, is SOLELY due to poor planning on the part of those having problems

That's just in 2 weeks. Go back in the archives over the past 4 years and I'm sure you'll find plenty of little gems that even top those. And as I stated above, the non-progressive comments made by many DU'ers are not made by newbies. THey are self-proclaimed Dyed-in-the-wool Liberals (and with post counts in the thousands) who have no problem using classist, racist, sexist terms and dengrating anyone who falls below their own personal level of acceptability.

[pitohui]

7. yeah bad choice of parents

next time you'll know to go on strike and refuse to be born unless your prospective parents have a minimum of $10 million dollars

:sarcasm:

[trotsky]

3. Absolutely NOT.

Did Paris Hilton become successful through her own hard work?

Case closed.

[m0nkeyneck]

17. paris hilton is successful?

not by my definition... bleh


get ur point tho :toast:

[pitohui]

4. of course they don't

i would ask your rude and stupid friend why she wasn't a millionaire if success was available to everyone

"if it's so easy, you do it first, and show me how"

you can't really be liberal if you think everyone who is poor is a failure, how much time and effort are you really going to expend on a lost cause loser?

[VPStoltz]

6. No? HELL NO!!!

Have you seen anything written in recent history about how to handle a job interview? It's total crap that these companies are looking for "qualified" people - they are looking for the kind of person they want to give the company a good appearance. It's all too well known that good looking people get hired. And aside from that - what of the many who
are, let's say, artists or musicians, etc. They literally could be geniuses but do not cater to the public taste. Are they making a poor choice of creating what they do instead of creating something that sells?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

8. The term "Success" itself could be debated at length.

I lived in my car with nothing through two winters. Hung on to life, got beat by cops, and kicked off streets every night by people in warm homes who didn't want a kid in his car parked on their block.

But I to this day have never been stronger, wiser, more caring, more hopeful, more motivated, spiritual and overall of sound mind.

In my mind, I was successful, yet I had nothing....

[FlemingsGhost]

12. Amen!

"Success" has little to do with wealth and material possession, in my opinion.

[Bellamia]

22. Same as FlemingsGhost......

"Success" has little to do with wealth and material possession, in my opinion.

[conflictgirl]

16. Yes, of course there are many ways to define "success"

This is more about how much opportunity or control any one person has over the circumstances of your lives. For example, my husband has been through three layoffs, all of which were in different industries - these same people said it was his fault for not choosing better industries. It took him 5 months to find a job, they said it was again his fault for not conducting a job search better. When he finally found a job and it was at a 50 percent pay cut from the last job, it was his fault for choosing to accept it and he could have gotten MORE than the wage at the last job if (again) he did the "right" things.

I found it really frustrating that no matter what we experienced, I was told that I was just "making excuses" for not doing better.

[FlemingsGhost]

24. At this very moment, do you have any problems?

I mean right now. Not tomorrow, next month or even an hour from now.

Is there a roof over your head? Have you eaten today? Are you free of life threatening danger?

If so, you are successful.

[conflictgirl]

29. No, I don't have any of those problems

And I do feel successful.

However, the fact that I'm pointing out that some people are NOT so lucky is not to say that I'm whining about my own situation. I can remember what situations I came from clearly enough that it's especially worth it to me to stick up for others. It's more a matter of correcting what I see as injustice in the view that everyone has equal opportunities.

[Greyhound]

68. That's a definition of survival, not success, IMO

Not that I disagree for I have a very similar philosophy, but that is a big step down from the definition of the American Success Story we have traditionally made.
How the mighty have fallen.

[raccoon]

84. They think your husband is a psychic?

"these same people said it was his fault for not choosing better industries."

I've known people who say stupid things like that. As if you could know the future.

[Selatius]

33. I wish there were more people like you

It must be an awful lonely path to walk in life sometimes.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

52. Thanks. But it is awfully lonely for most at some time or another.

I'm sure most have had at least some point in their lives when they looked up to the ceiling from their bed, in the dark, exploring that void they were feeling at the moment. And yet, through that sadness, loneliness, and longing, may have found that at that moment of solitude and simplicity alone in the dark, they truly never understood themselves better or were more genuine of heart.

Those moments are what define our deepest character, and are the strongest paving stones to aquire when building the road to wisdom.

:)

[Greyhound]

9. Of course not.

But I know what you mean, I've seen it often.

[shance]

10. No and unfortunately it's a myth taught to Americans early on.

Certainly there are opportunities for everyone in our lives.

However along with opportunities in our lives, there are also events that can ruin our health, motor skills, emotional state and motivational level, skill level and/or our lives in general.

The Atlas Shrugged fans tend to ignore that very important and real truth.

[raccoon]

85. Amen, Amen!

"However along with opportunities in our lives, there are also events that can ruin our health, motor skills, emotional state and motivational level, skill level and/or our lives in general. "

Accidents, illnesses, and disabilities can rear their heads as you're striving for material success.

[mzmolly]

11. Uhm - HELL NO!

George Bush is President because of where he came from. Tell me a child of color who grew up in poverty has the same shot at such a position? :eyes:

If your parents can afford to give you a good education you have more of a shot at prosperity than those who don't have that fortune. That does not mean that one can't become a financial success by overcoming adversity, but it sure is more likely with less to overcome.

[sproutster]

13. No... and yes...

I too was minimum wage w/child. Painful. I had to move back home once and there was a job opening for "computer skilled" and I (kinda) lied. I just didn't mention the only computer experience I had was on AOL. :)

I did TONS of research after learning what my job entailed and it was a gradual uphill in wages from there. Of course now I'm waiting for my job to be off-shored... but I do have a nice resume.

Keep your head up and if you must fudge, fudge to the positive.

[FormerRepublican]

14. Poor because it's your fault? That's hogwash.

I was a crime victim as a kid and ended up with PTSD. I also have epilepsy. Even so, I worked for many years until the ADA bit the dust and my disability got so bad I couldn't work anymore. My work history was so unstable because of my disability that I could never really save anything. Not to mention the inevitable problems you run into in life. In the end, I ended up poor because I was a crime victim as a child and it disabled me. How is that in any way my fault?

[Just Me]

18. We may be born "equal" in spirit, but definitely NOT in opportunity.

There is NO equality in opportunity in this country. There simply isn't,...and THAT IS REALITY.

So many people must work several times harder to simply survive than those who are born more advantaged. "Fairness" is certainly something this country fails at establishing.

[zalinda]

19. People are poor for a number of reasons

One of the big ones is that the wealthy help the wealthy. Wealthy kids out of college are hired by large companies where a equally as bright or brighter poor kid couldn't even get an interview.

The poor can get an inferior education with old textbooks and not enough opportunities, in their local area.

Poor health can also play a factor, if you don't feel well because you can't afford a doctor, you won't perform as well as the next guy who is getting the raise.

Can someone make it in this country? Yes, but he has to be either driven or lucky. Plain hard work doesn't always get you a head, just ask the single mom who is holding down 3 part time jobs to make ends meet.

It's not a question of Liberal or Conservative, it's a question of where you were brought up. Did you grow up in a small town where there were very few opportunities? Did you grow up with a single parent who still needs help to survive? Did you grow up thinking that buying a BMW was a waste of good money? You see lots of things can make or keep you poor in regards to money. But the trick is to be happy any way. I've known rich people who are really unhappy, and nothing they buy themselves make them feel better. Too much alcohol or drugs can make that unhappiness go away for awhile, but it always comes back.

Poor is really not a choice, not many people would choose to be poor. Most people would choose enough, just let me make enough money. Enough to pay bills, to keep a roof over my head, to feed my family and maybe a little extra for fun. If you're happy, enough is more than enough. If you're poor and happy, you can deal. If you're rich and unhappy, you can't deal.

I'd choose happiness every time.

zalinda

[Lydia Leftcoast]

45. Just as an example:

One of the big ones is that the wealthy help the wealthy. Wealthy kids out of college are hired by large companies where a equally as bright or brighter poor kid couldn't even get an interview.

When I was a grad student at an Ivy League school (on fellowship--I never could have afforded the tuition) I used to see ads in the campus newspaper in the spring advertising internships in New York and D.C., not only in government agencies but also at newspapers, magazines, banks, stock brokerages, advertising agencies, radio and TV stations, you name it. All of these were nationally recognized names.

What great opportunities!

But there was a catch.

Almost all these internships were unpaid.

That's right, you not only had to forego earning money for college tuition during the summer, you had to live in New York City or Washington D.C. for three months.

Who can do that?

Rich kids, that's who. Those kinds of positions are difficult for non-wealthy students who live in NYC or DC, and utterly impossible for non-wealthy students rom other areas.

Why would multi-million dollar corporations hire unpaid summer help if not to keep the lower classes from getting a foot in the door?

[nevergiveup]

20. When a child my Dad use to tell me

that all poor folks could get out of poverty by pulling themselves up by their bootstraps. One day when about 17, and listening to this for the umpteenth time, I responded by asking him "what if a person is too poor to afford boots?". He did not respond and he never again made this statement in my presence.

[prescole]

34. Guess what happens when you pull REALLY hard on your bootstraps?

You pull your bootstraps right off.

[Selatius]

21. HELL NO: EVERYBODY CAN'T BE lords and kings and masters of their destiny

Somebody has to have the job of cleaning up the shit they leave behind. You can probably aim for a society built on mutual cooperation and egality that at least guarantees everybody the same shot, but you're not going to get that in a society built on competition and the accumulation of capital at the expense of all other competitors. By definition, somebody wins, and somebody loses in the latter situation. Somebody always loses.

[leftstreet]

25. Capitalism shits on too many people n/t

[Balbus]

23. Nobody can control what cards are dealt to them.

But how you play those cards that are dealt to you...

[Just Me]

38. The greatest example of the strength of the human spirit,....

,...has ALWAYS been "how you play the cards,...dealt to you".

The people I most admire,...were not or are not wealthy.

[fishwax]

26. Hell no. That's delusional

I don't see how anyone in there right mind could argue that, though I have heard people argue it.

And maybe a better question - can a person still be "liberal" if they believe that the poor are only poor because of their own bad choices?

I think liberals can be misguided and uninformed, and I can see where a lot of people who were philosophically liberal but not particularly informed or intellectually sophisticated could fall for that line of reasoning, but can usually be swayed out of it, one would hope ...

[DavidBowman]

27. People have tons of control over their circumstances

...but the inequality of opportunities in America is equally vast.

[Walt Starr]

28. At the moment of birth, all have an equal chance at success

It's the moment after birth where familial connections kick in.

[alcibiades_mystery]

30. Social conditions begin to have their effects in utero

Unless you think that the educated bourgeois woman with health insurance has the same access to information and pre-natal care as the poor, uneducated woman in rural West Virginia (much less poverty-stricken areas in other parts of the world!)?

[JanMichael]

31. Unless of course your mother was drinking, smoking, eating poorly...

...or one is born with a lower than average intelligence, or with socially unacceptable features, or etcetera.

Sure familial situation Ie. environment plays a roll but there's a hell of a lot more going on than that.

[FlemingsGhost]

32. The moment of birth *is* success!

Then we are exposed to the illusion that acquiring status symbols and items from the material world are all that this experience has to offer.

[Heddi]

37. Well, that is unless the mother is a teenager

because teenage mothers typically do not receive the same amount of pre-natal care as "older" mothers. Teenage mothers also have a more difficult time meeting prenatal nutrition needs because teenagers have higher nutritional needs than "older" women, and the ability to meet both their needs as well as the needs of the fetus is quite difficult.

Then, of course, if your mother is poor and has no access to health care to begin with, you have lower chances of success, as no access to prenatal health care means no prenatal vitamins, well-checks, etc.

Of course, if your mother is undereducated and has the same restrictions to pre-natal care, or if your mother has a host of other issues. Then there's the issue of whether either or both parents have inheritable genetic defects which could severely stunt post-birth learning, growth and abilities (as I would say that someone with Downs Syndrome who was born to a single parent with no prenatal medical care does not have the same chance of "success" (as defined by polite society) as a child with downs syndrome born to a two-parent household, who received excellent prenatal care, and who has a wealth of medical options available to them once the child is born)

There are many, many instances where prenatal development is QUITE indicative of health and wellbeing post-birth. Many of these problems could be reduced by adequate prenatal health care for the mother and fetus. By not receiving proper health care while in utero, a child has a great chance of having relatively 'fixable' issues get worse and severely impact the "success" (or even viability) of that child once it's born.

[drduffy]

35. This is a joke question, right?

[LSK]

40. i used to think so, not anymore

Its all about whos butt you kiss nowadays to get anywhere. Its about who you know and sheer luck that you can get a job and keep it.

[StellaBlue]

41. bwhahahahahahaha

Uh, NO.

[seabeyond]

42. average iq. there will be people above and below that average

that means there will be smart people and not smart people. just as valid as humans as the brightest on this earth, reality is there are people below average. if a person has below average smart, not to mention education and enviroment, but just the fact that there are a percentage below average in intelligenc, means they have a greater burden.

so people that say we all have same opportunity. average iq, above and below, knocks that theory out of water. a whole lot of other factors come into play

[BamaGirl]

43. I had this same argument with one of my cousins Thursday

Absolutely infuriating. I had to walk away, but at least he doesn't pretend to be a liberal. There are a lot of people in this country who work hard their whole lives and still don't improve their "circumstances". Luck plays as much a role as anything else.

[Orangepeel]

44. Oh, please. Like GWB and I had the same opportunities in life.

:eyes:

I've made plenty of choices that limited my financial success in life in favor of more intrinsic rewards. I chose to be a scholar, I married for love, I give freely, I'm not careful with what I buy, etc. So, where I am in life (which, fortunately, is much more comfortable than most people) is of my own making.

But my daddy didn't have rich friends to bankroll failed businesses and put me on the boards of their companies, either. Plenty of rich people work very hard, but the idea that someone like GWB worked harder for his money than I have is ridiculous on its face. (Now, GHWB probably has worked harder than me most of his life, despite his Senator father -- on the other hand, most of what he's worked at has been morally reprehensible to me).

Anyway, in answer to your questions, most people who have achieved financial success did so because they are smart/talented and hardworking. But many (maybe more) people who are equally smart/talented and hardworking don't achieve financial success because they've had bad breaks in life.

Others don't have the smarts/talent to be successful. They shouldn't starve because of it.

Can you be a liberal if you think the poor deserve to be poor? I don't know. It isn't for me to define the hurdles. I think one who believes that is far more likely to be a libertarian, however.

[FlemingsGhost]

49. Would you say happiness (or lack of suffering) is success?

If so, I cannot believe that GW Bush is happy. From the drinking and drug abuse to his meglomaniac character, that is not a successful man.

[conflictgirl]

50. In my initial post, I was referring to financial success

NOT wealth, but enough money that one never has to worry about access to food, health care, housing, etc. The basics. I suppose having access to the basic necessities of life is a form of wealth in itself so maybe we're quibbling over semantics.

There is definitely a difference between financial success and the "happiness" aspect of success. In fact, I know that often wealth is inversely proportionate to true happiness. I think everyone has the same opportunities to have that kind of happiness, but not everyone has the same opportunities for the financial security that will ensure that they always have the basic necessities of life.

[FlemingsGhost]

53. Ahhhhhh ... but could one actually bring about the other?

A level of "happiness," or the positive attitude that comes from a lack of personal suffering, to an extent that it assists in creating the opportunities (and drives the decisions) to bring about financial or material gains.

[Greyhound]

73. Do what you love and the money will follow was just a book title

there has to be favorable economies in order for it to work. I am pursuing my passion and I have declared personal bankruptcy and may well lose my house. The inescapable fact is that the economy is crap and my clients are feeling it. Keep in mind all of my clients are at least top 10% and many are top 1% or 2%.

[Orangepeel]

51. I agree with you.

I interpreted the question as "financial success". I tried to make that clear in my post because I am quite confident that I am happier in my life than bush is in his.

I do think money and happiness are related. As the saying goes, money can't buy happiness. But, the lack of a minimum amount of money can sure cause a lot of suffering.

[PretzelWarrior]

46. some people are poor cuz they screwed up. others are not

and there is the whole social stratification issue where class is somewhat institutionalized by our peer groups, family, and even teachers/counselors.

still, there are many cases where someone had a decent life and destroyed it becuase of personal choices to experiment with drugs or their personal choice to keep having kids though no way to support the kids.

I think a person cannot be an enabler of those who refuse to seek help, but I also think we need to keep trying to put things in place to teach a greater and greater percentage of kids the ways of success in life. things like higher savings rates are ridiculously low because of how kids have been taught about instant gratification.

We don't do a good job of educating our kids about value of hard work and value of a dollar and how to set yourself up for success.

Back to original point....there are some people so disadvantaged from so many perspectives they will NEVER get out of the vicious cycle of poverty unless outside groups and even government programs help them out to get a hand up in life.

[Swamp Rat]

47. no n/t

[baltlib]

48. my example

my brother in law, half way to becoming a lawyer, tried the .mil thing. he got kicked out, so he worked in a factory making pallets, he saved enough money to pay for a year at community college, then he got pell grants. his parents, their house was left to them ( baltimore city row house ), and they now have a 90 k mortgage because of bad decisions, like buying in to time shares. the time shares they no longer have but his mother gets her pay attached, the father is on SS disability. brother in law is doing okay but thinks his parents owe him, he does not help with money around the house, but gets feed and clothed by his parents. at age 27 he is a college grad, now for law school. he had to wait till he was 24 to go to college because he could not get aid due to the fact that his mother makes 34 k a year.

he has made some thing but he did have a roof and food

[upi402]

54. NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO

HELL NO

[Bouncy Ball]

55. Ha! That's funny. No, not everyone has equal chances.

Let's look at two girls.

One was born into a middle to upper-middle class family with two highly-educated parents who are both employed and make good money. Her parents had about $100K saved for her college education by the time she graduated. She grew up relatively safe and went to good schools. She wasn't abused or neglected. Her parents were not addicts or into any kind of crime, white-collar or otherwise.

One was born into generational poverty. Her mother, an alcoholic, gave her to her grandmother to raise. Her grandmother had health problems, unchecked diabetes, mostly. Her grandmother also barely eked by financially. She loved her granddaughter a lot, but between the leg amputation and being afraid of losing her little house, she can't do much for her. An uncle molested her repeatedly from childhood through adolescence. She grew up in an unsafe area and got a poor education. She started drinking at the age of 14 and ran away from home at 16, almost 17 and never went back.

Both girls are now 18. The first girl is a high school graduate and is about to start her first year, pre-law, at university.

The second girl has been on her own for 18 months and is working at McDonald's part-time. She stopped the drinking and wants to do something better with her life, but keeps running into dead ends as far as resources, where to live, how to support herself.

Now, the first girl COULD just totally, royally fuck up in college and the second girl COULD hit the lottery.

But even if the first girl royally fucks up in college, she's still got those well-off loving parents.

Second girl has zero support system. And what are her chances of winning the lottery?

Let's say both girls get pregnant, accidentally, a year later, when they are 19. First girl is a sophomore in college, making good grades. She has easy access, transportation and the money for an abortion.

Second girl cannot afford the cab ride to Houston from the sticks to get the abortion and even if she could afford the cab ride, she can't afford the abortion. She has the baby. Keeps it. And it starts alllllll over again.

First girl has abortion, goes back to school, finishes her degree and goes to law school.

On edit, I didn't even go into prenatal factors, such as the fact that the mother of the first girl had good prenatal care and nutrition and didn't smoke or drink. The second girl was born to an alcoholic mother who received minimal prenatal care and nutrition. They were worlds apart from the moment of birth.

[Athame]

74. I agree with your analogy, EXCEPT

abuse, sexual and otherwise, occurs at all levels of society. It is a mistake to perpetuate the myth that poverty is more than one of many factors in the prevalence of abuse. I felt it important to mention this.

Otherwise, I think you have described a very accurate set of circumstances leading to different outcomes.

[Bouncy Ball]

77. Yes, that's true.

But I wanted to clearly delineate between the two girls. The first girl is not protected from abuse or neglect because of her parents' socio-economic status, not at ALL.

[Deja Q]

57. Nope. But,

All we can do is be as successful as we can within our limitations.

But we shouldn't live in piss poor conditions because we aren't as vocally versed as those who are successful.

After all, it is not what you know but who you know. Donald Trump obviously knows nothing - hell, he's filed bankruptcy twice now. Yet he has a 'name' and still managed to sell a book on how to make money :eyes: and be the attention whore centerpiece of a job that is supposedly nonscripted and takes place in corporate america. (and even after being revealed it was even phonier than Jerry Springer's violent smutfest, it was STILL popular. Good grief.)

[plasticwidow]

58. Minimum Wage and Small Towns

$10 an hour eh?

Try $6 an hour.. tops.. at a good job, up to 45 minutes away on all sides, no public transportation, and a government system who "helps" by dishing out foodstamps and other benefits that if you try to get off of those benefits, you end up worse off than before. Most of the jobs in this and the surrounding area, unless you want to travel two hours a day round trip to and from your job, you are lucky to earn $5.00 an hour, and most of the jobs here are "At Will Employment", meaing they can fire you for any reason, the stupidist reasons, and if you work less than 6 months at the job, you have no recourse because in order to qualify for unemployment, you have to have been at a job for 6 months or more. And the current Welfare system does not help one get ahead, makes it hard to get help when its really needed, and makes it even harder to get off of the help once your on. Big brother is watching over you and yours, your children, your homes, everything. The big brother is making his wallet fatter, and yours smaller, its called dependence.. and the more we depend on the Government for help, the more we get caught in the neverending cycle of Government control.

Some, yes, are poor because of their circumstances and not being motivated enough to change or work hard enough. But more often than not, it is not the fault of the poor person, but more the government and the employers who are only interested in the big bucks they can make and who can they manipulate and control.

And I won't even go into the health and health insurance issue. Do you realize that we are one of the very few industrialized countries in this world who do not have a centralized free health care system?

Anyways.. that was my rant.

Peace!

[newyawker99]

61. Hi plasticwidow!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Silverhair]

59. It is a combination of ambition and luck.

Not everyone starts at the same place in life. That is obvious.

Some are born into money and opportunites that are rained on them.

Some are lucky enough to be beautiful or handsome.

Some are lucky enough to have very high IQs.

Some are horribly unlucky, and are born with serious problems.

But we can make our situation better or worse by the choices we make about what we do with what we have.

I was born into, and raised in poverty. We didn't need to be poor. Dad made a lot of bad choices that kept us poor. Basically, he was lazy, and so was Mom. Bad habits WILL produce poverty, but it can also be bad luck.

[moondust]

62. Absolutely not.

If you wanted true equal opportunity you'd have to do away with inheritance and have everybody start with the same resources. Rich and poor alike would have to grow up without private aid from friends and relatives.

Some people are born with better health than others which is always an important factor in what one is able to do.

And as you suggest, much depends on where you live, what kinds of opportunities are available to you there, and how you are raised before you get out on your own making decisions for yourself.

[H2O Man]

63. Sure.

Some have more equal chances than others.

[MadHound]

64. No, of course not.

What your families socio-economic position is, what your race is, where your family lives, all of these and more directly effect your formative years, where you go to school, etc a great deal. Thus, your later opportunities in life are effected by this, and also effected by such unexpected calamities such as natural disaster, health problems, accidents, etc.

That said, I still believe that America is the easiest country in the world for a person to move up the socio-economic ladder, though it is getting tougher and tougher to do so all the time.

[pitohui]

65. america is FAR from the easiest country to change class

they've pretty much debunked this, it is actually easier to change yr social class in any nation of the european union, ironically, it is most difficult to change yr class in the u.k. and it is more difficult to change yr class in the u.s.a. than in the u.k.

surely some sociologist has some links

social mobility in usa has been dead for decades, you may thank ronald reagan

working class/blue collar can move down but they can no longer move up and even large numbers of middle class can only move down in social class and never move up, especially women

[MadHound]

67. I would have to disagree

I have several friends throughout Europe, and elsewhere in the world, and they all state that European society has become quite stratified and rigid in regards to socio-economic class. In fact it was this very stratification that in part sparked the riots in France recently. And my UK friends absolutely despair at moving up the ladder in England. Unless you are quite lucky, or happen to somehow know the right people, where you're born is pretty much where you'll stay.

And while moving up the socio-economic ladder has become increasingly difficult, it is far from dead in this country. Witness Bill Clinton, Condi Rice and many others, including myself. Now if you really want to get up the ladder, you do indeed have to be willing to sell your soul completely(again, witness Clinton and Rice), but even today most people can still move up a notch or two through their hard work and persistance. I started life as lower middle class, moved down into homelessness, moved up again and am now solidly middle class.

Yes it has become more difficult in this country, but I still maintain, and my foreign friends bear witness, that America is still the easiest country in which to move up the socio-economic ladder. One piece of anecdotal evidence that bears this out is the number of immigrants, both illegal and otherwise, who continue to flock to our shores this very day. Why would they be coming if they knew that they couldn't move up?

[TX-RAT]

66. Yes i do.

I comes down to how bad do you want it, and are you willing to deal with the amount of time, work, stress and hardships, involved.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

79. Bull.

You're telling me that George W. Bush and some kid from the projects have an equal chance of success? Yeah, ok...I'll take that bet. :eyes:


George W. Bush's odds of success were 1 out of 1. No matter how incompetant he was, he always had a backup, his parents' money. Any poor person? Well now, no matter how hardworking, how dedicated, they just can't touch those odds.

[TX-RAT]

80. NO

I'm saying the person who really wants to be successful, will be, despite the odds. Theres only one thing that will keep you from being successful, and thats you.

[conflictgirl]

83. So do you believe that our society has room for that?

That would assume that everyone in society COULD BE financially successful, and the fact that it isn't so is due only to individual lack of ambition. I know very bright, well-educated, ambitious people who are still making less than $35,000 a year - and it's certainly not for lack of ambition. Maybe if they could figure out how to invent something that everyone needs, or be really good at selling stuff to people, then they could be financially successful. But this economy depends on low-wage jobs, whch tells me that it's just NOT possible for all to be financially successful if only they work hard enough.

[TX-RAT]

87. bright, well-educated, ambitious people

Being bright, well-educated and ambitious, in my opinion is not the key. Not becoming a settler is the key. Too many people are afraid to quite a good job, just to take a better one, or quite a job, to start their own business. I always figured, if i spent as much time working for myself, as i did working for others, i couldn't help but be successful.

[raccoon]

86. If he/she has some luck, and doesn't develop a physical/mental

disability or chronic illness.

Those things have a way of keeping people from being financially successful.

[TX-RAT]

89. Waiting for luck, will always lead to a disappointment.

One of my best friends was born with a birth defect, he is unable to use his left arm. He went on to be a 5 term sheriff in a small West TX county, i'd definitely call that successful. Don't get me wrong, there are disabilities and illnesses that can leave a person helpless, but the original poster who i answered, didn't mention that.

If you truly want to be successful, you can't give up, you can't let a failure or 2 make you quite trying. I don't know of any successful person who doesn't have a few failures in their past.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

90. That is not an "equal" chance though

An equal chance is say, there's an equal chance of flipping a coin and having it be heads as it being tails. IE, it is equally likely for either outcome to occur. Now, someone who has to put ZERO effort to be successful is a guarantee. Someone who will have to work beyond all expectations to become sucessful, well...the odds are not in their favor.

[TX-RAT]

97. So your definition of successful is wealth?

I know several people who have inherited their wealth, none of them i would consider successful.

[raccoon]

96. There are always exceptions to everything.

I didn't say a person CAN'T be financially successful with a disability, but it does make it much more difficult.

[TX-RAT]

98. I agree

Thats why i would put more value and a higher level of respect, for those who have had to fight the tougher odds, to gain their success.

[freestyle]

69. Of course not. An "underclass" is in the DNA of the U.S.

It is absolutely ridiculous to think that people have anything approaching equal opportunities. Even the thing that is supposed to be the equalizer, education, is unequal. It is difficult to move too far from your parents and close relatives, especially for poor people in poor neighborhoods in poor cities with poor schools.

Social mobility is a nice ideal, but very difficult, and something that tends to occur over generations and with extreme amounts of hard work from people who start low on the scale. And the idea of "self-made" anythings is laughable bullshit. Anyone who has achieved had plenty of help and hopefully enough class and grace to say thank you now and then.

[mattclearing]

70. There are exceptions to every rule.

There are always going to be people who come from impoverished backgrounds and are successful. And there are going to be people who come from wealthy backgrounds who end up homeless.

But on average, I'm willing to bet that there is a significant correlation with family background and success in this country.

Exceptions are often put out there to claim that the system works, when in fact, the system is really fucking hard to make work. It could be a lot easier.

[leftofthedial]

71. of course not

the priveleged class takes care of its own

and let's not even bring up racism.

[Fescue4u]

72. No and they never ever will

We are all born with different amounts of talent.

Sometimes one is born with a natural talent that is highly in demand, or at a fortunate junction in history. Where would Bill Gates be if he were born 10 years later? or 100 years earlier? Is it fair that being an expert kurlerer is far less properous than being an expert football player?

And then folks are born into different circumstances. Would we know of Bill gates if his name were Mohammed Gates and he was born into poverty in Afghanistan? I doubt it. He would proably be inventing bombs that people up, instead of software that blows computers up.

Despite the bashing that goes on, I do think that America does a good job of equalizing opportunity as much as possible. Some eras it has done a much better job than now of course.

But life is unfair, and theres not a damn thing we can do about it.

[tcookie5]

75. I don't think so.

[HughBeaumont]

76. Not since Reagan.

Horatio Alger est mort. Now get the hell back to work and start making me MONEY!

[Cleita]

78. I'm with you. I don't believe that.

Most ordinary people's chances are really based on the circumstances that they are born in. Some are born with extraordinary talent and intellect and if they use these talents will rise to the top, but even this requires a certain amount of luck and being in the right place at the right time.

Most of us will struggle harder if we are not white, not a blond female if white, if we are female and not male, if we were born into a poor family or have lost our family before maturity and many other circumstances that will make it harder to get an education to rise in status and earning power.

Until we invest in each child's future that is born, I wonder how many Albert Einsteins, Enrique Carusos, Frank Lloyd Wrights or Pablo Picassos will be lost because they didn't live in a society that made an effort to discover their hidden talents and give them the nurture,education and opportunity to use them.

[raccoon]

81. If by "successful" you mean, have a "good job" and/or

make "good" money, the answer is, hell, no.

Not in 21st century America, not in 21st century China, Somalia, Argentina.

Not in any country or any century.

[ScooterKen]

88. No

Poor are poor because of circumstance, not bad choices.

[Protagoras]

91. No.

:hide:

[AZBlue]

92. Absolutely not.

As to your last sentence: "can a person still be "liberal" if they believe that the poor are only poor because of their own bad choices?" - well, I personally believe that's not a case of being liberal or not liberal but stupid or not stupid. Anyone who thinks that is closed-minded and completely unaware of reality and truth, no matter what their party affiliation is!

[Freddie Stubbs]

93. Of course not

Some people have to work harder for success. Look at the immigrants who come to this country with little money an no education. Many of them become more successful that people who were born in this country and had many more advantages.

[Blasphemer]

94. Definitely not

It's an impossibility. Even if the childhood circumstances are the same, i.e. siblings of the same gender raised in the same household, there is no equality. Some people are born with gifts that others don't possess. Some are born with challenges that inherently limit their abilities. When you add differences of circumstance to the mix, I find it hard to see any individual as 100% accountable for their station in life. Yes, we have free will but our choices are limited by the society in which we live.

I do think a person can still be "liberal" and hold those beliefs about the poor. For some, it's a philosophical or spiritual position. Some people believe that we choose our parents before we are born because of lessons we need to learn. For some it's a matter of karma.

[Lorien]

95. No. I used to work with a lot of highly accomplished, talented people

some came from humble roots and they got where they were through:

Raw talent and hard work

Exceptional intelligence and hard work

The right connections

a combination of the above and dumb luck.

One guy in particular comes to mind; Juan had been a political prisoner in Cuba for 14 years. While in isolation in his cell, he taught himself how to draw on the dirt floor. Eventually he was released and came to America, where he worked as a dishwasher at a hotel in Miami. His coworkers knew he could draw, so when a recruiter from Disney Feature Animation came to stay at the hotel, they asked him to look at Juan's drawings. Juan was hired by Disney, despite the fact that he didn't have a college education (almost unheard of in our industry). With hard work and a few hit movies, Juan slowly moved up in the company and was making a mid-six figure income.

Talent, the right connections, and dumb luck!