Wow! What do Du'ers think of this? Vandalism or social activism?

[Syncronaut Seven]

Before responding, try to get in to the heads of black America, who have suffered the ravages of alcohol and social neglect for a very long time. If I had a star, I would have posted a poll.

About a dozen African-American men wearing suits, white-collared shirts and bow ties — a trademark of the Nation of Islam — entered the store on San Pablo Avenue and West Street around 11:30 p.m.

One went behind the counter and swept dozens of shelved liquor bottles to the floor. Others smashed glass refrigerator doors with long slim metal pipes, breaking beer and wine bottles inside the cases. The whole incident from start to finish was caught on surveillance tape.

The men warned the store clerks to stop selling alcohol to African Americans, but they also knocked over display racks containing bread and other food items. Then, almost as quickly as they arrived, they all filed out and headed to another West Oakland liquor store, New York Market at Market and 35th streets, where they did the same thing.

http://www.insidebayarea.com/oaklandtribune/localnews/ci_3250853


Additional info: Oakland police have determined that Nation of Islam members were NOT among the perpetrators, as had been previously reported.

On edit: Another possibility, false flag operation? why did the dress like NoI?

[Straight Shooter]

1. Vandalism.

And what do store clerks have to do with anything? It's their job to sell the products in the store.

Extreme measures cloaked in violence seldom reap the results we desire.

[UncleSepp]

2. My suspicious mind would think...

... that this was perpetrated by friends of someone who owns a different liquor store, or that it is a pretext for a protection racket. I don't actually have any reason to believe that's true, but I have a suspicious and seedy imagination.

[prescole]

41. I think you nailed it, AuntJen. My thoughts exactly. The Nation of

Islam wouldn't be so stupid as to do such a thing on videotape, but someone with another agenda might certainly dress up in NoI garb to deflect suspicion.

Vandalism plain and simple.

[1932]

70. The timing couldn't have been better: just before holiday.

If you owned a liquor store nearby or wanted to punish a liquor store not paying the protection money, the only better time to do this would have been New Years or Christmas.

[Syncronaut Seven]

74. Protection racket? Another valid theory. The only thing I'm confident of

on a growing number of recent mysteries, is that we may never know.

Truth seems no longer a beacon, just a wisp from a dying candle flame.

[thebigidea]

83. definetely. There's a lot more behind this...

not mere vandalism...

[celestia671]

3. I have to call vandalism...

sorry, but wrecking someone's store and destroying property that people work hard to maintain is not social activism.

[proud2BlibKansan]

4. I saw the video

It is vandalism. That store owner has a legal right to sell liquor.

[mrcheerful]

5. Think about this

why is it you only find bill boards, liquor stores and lotto machines in poor areas? You don't find any of these things in well to do areas or the suburbs. What kind of message does that send to kids growing up in those areas?

[EstimatedProphet]

12. You don't?

Are you sure?

[Aimah]

22. The neighborhoods I've lived in were like that.

I've lived most of my life in a majority black neighborhood in Indianapolis. I've lived in Chicago and Atlanta also. From what I've noticed there are far more liquor stores than normal in majority minority areas. In Indianapolis in a 1 mile radius were 6 liquor stores all owned by the same company. I've noticed comparable things in other cities.

I don't see the same saturation in non-minority areas. The saddest part is that they probably wouldn't be there unless there was enough people buying the alcohol.

[Squatch]

15. Well, for one thing, you pose a false question

since I live in a well-to-do neighborhood that features billboards, liquor stores, and "lotto machines". In fact, most of the neighborhoods, rich or poor, and suburbs in this area have those three things in spades.

[Syncronaut Seven]

55. Banning addictive behaviors has never been realistic

But is it right to actively and aggressively cultivate new addictions thru the power of media? That we can legislate! Personally I would like to see ALL billboards banned They are just aesthetic poison on a beautiful planet.

Do we have a responsibility to NOT advocate and promote addictive and self destructive behaviors?

Worse yet, am I becoming more conservative in my relatively progressive old age? Oh god, where is THIS going to squish out? ;) I'm so conflicted!

[mrcheerful]

76. Oh don't get me wrong!

I believe in letting people self destruct and I also know that you can't stop anyone from doing it. Lmao, I'm coming up on my 11th year of being a sober citizen. I was just trying to point out that some seem to let these conditions get to them and they go a bit nuts. We live in a culture that from day one tells us, hey you don't like how you feel, well use this or that or the other and everything will be ok. I also forgot what living in dry counties was like, doesn't matter what income class one belongs to, when you leave a dry county for a wet one you can tell because all you see is liquor stores and liquor bill boards. I was trying to put across the anger some get when they forget they are powerless to stop someone from self destruction and why they would turn to using that tactic. Ok I admit, I was lost in my thinking about what I was trying to point out, it happens from the end of november until after the new year and I become confused easily, left overs from over 25 years of drinking.

[Syncronaut Seven]

78. Your good friend! No worries!

:)

[acmejack]

19. I live in the best part of town & there is a liquor store within a mile

Has a lotto machine too. I get your point, but it is not universally true. I will grant there are more liquor stores with different stock in the more blighted areas per capita.

On edit: No billboards here though. And it was vandalism!

[Boomer]

23. The rich don't need encouragement to drink

It's already such an ingrained aspect of upper-class culture that ads are probably wasted on them. The liquor cabinet will always be well-stocked with the best hard stuff and racks of fine wine.

Besides, there are more direct ways to reach that specific audience, usually with ads in specialty magazines.

[TankLV]

80. Not in any place I've ever visited or lived!

They can be found anywhere, anyplace - some are just dressed up nicer.

They are all over the place, and since there are more "nice" places than the ghettos you are trying to imagine, I would claim that they occur MORE OFTEN in the more affluent and nicer neighborhoods.

Would love to know what delusional world you live in!

[Syncronaut Seven]

85. MrC's post may have been a broad generalization, but not wholly inaccurate

A more accurate statement would have been:

Why is it you find A DISPROPORTIONATE NUMBER OFbill boards, liquor stores and lotto machines in poor areas? You don't find NEARLY AS MANY of these things in well to do areas or the suburbs. What kind of message does that send to kids growing up in those areas?

I've seen the phenomenon in San,diego, Los,Angeles, Oakland, most of Texas, all of Louisiana, Arkansas, Phoenix, even Seattle.

And lighten up, I "imagine" you weren't trying to sound rude, but that's certainly the perception I get.

Care to edit?

[RoyGBiv]

92. Liquor ads are everywhere ...

The liquor ads in poor neighborhoods are for cheap liquor. The ads in upscale areas, in magazines geared toward the affluent, etc. are for more expensive liquor.

I ran a liquor store for about 8 years in a medium-sized town with a college. Our ads were tailored for different demographics, which is the practice of anyone competent in the business of advertising. The country club got fliers about upscale wines and single malt scotch, and FWIW, we spent far more on advertising there than anywhere because the profit margin on these items was enormous. The daily newspaper had ads for blended whiskey, medium range import beers, and inexpensive vodka. We had one billboard-type thing that was placed near the college and only advertised our store and location. The space on large billboards you see advertising a specific type of spirit is generally rented by the liquor companies themselves, not individual liquor stores, and, again, they base what they advertise on what tends to sell to the demographic categories near where the billboard is located. (As an aside, large billboards tend not to be placed in high-income areas because the residents are able to convince government officials not to zone those areas to allow their existence. This is one reason for the perception of liquor companies targeting lower-income people more than others.)

I'll also add that I got out of the business primarily because I could no longer justify to myself enabling those who were bent on killing themselves slowly with alcohol. "Little Kenny," who was my age and died of liver failure at the age of 30 after having been kicked out of rehab for smuggling whiskey into his room, was the final straw. *I* sold him that liquor, sold him the bottle he drank the night he died as well, and I've had trouble forgiving myself for it. I mention this because I understand the outrage some feel. The last year I did this I knew, on average, two customers who died per month due to some alcohol related problem. They were "good customers" and people with whom I had become more friendly than just a typical customer-proprietor relationship. I attended the funerals of a few of these people, including Kenny's.

[Syncronaut Seven]

95. .

:cry: :hug: Friends gone have no more worries.

[RoyGBiv]

98. True that ...

"Little Kenny" was a particularly tragic story. I won't bore anyone with the details, but it really hit me hard. I liked the guy, a lot, and he was incredibly smart, exceptionally artistic ... he had so much to offer, but he was very depressed. I think I was the only person he really talked to much about his problems. I was his "bartender." Some days he'd even leave without buying anything, and I had hope those days. Anyway ...

Another one that bothered me a great deal was a WWII veteran who had been blown out of a tank in North Africa and suffered pain all his life because of it. He sipped a fifth of "Sweet Lucy" (cheap white port wine) and a pint of whiskey daily to kill the pain because he couldn't afford a real pain management regimen from a doctor. Alcohol wasn't his entire problem, but it contributed to it. He told the best stories. I'll always be able to picture his grinning face, which he was somehow able to muster even the one time he actually told me what happened to him when he was wounded. How he could laugh while talking about holding his intestines in I'll never know, but he did, and what's more he basically demanded with the way he told the story that I laugh too. Loved that guy. Too bad this country doesn't seem to care for its veterans *after* they've bled for it.

Sorry ... not trying to hijack your thread. This just brought back some memories.

[WCGreen]

102. Give me a fucking break....

I live i one of the most affluent suburbs in Ohio and there are 25-30 place to buy lotto and or alcohol...

[SPKrazy]

6. All right I think it is probably vandalism

but I want to think it is some kind of noble cause

however I watched the video on the news

looked like the nation of Islam folks trashing a convenience store.

[Syncronaut Seven]

30. Follow up, Oakland police have determined it WAS NOT Nation of Islam

members. NoI also denies it was their members.

I can only think of American whites dressed as Indigenous Americans and FBI dressed as Black Bloc anarchists in Seattle.

[SPKrazy]

32. Okay

I doubt it is anything as nefarious as the FBI, but they were well dressed at any rate!

Thanks

[Mutley]

7. Vandalism...

If they want liquor stores out of their neighborhoods, there are many better ways to go about it.

[Tesibria]

8. vandalism!

I can't imagine how this could be considered anything else -- even IF socially/activistly (hmmm not a word...) motivated, it's STILL vandalism - and it STILL likely terrorized the probably minimum wage) employee just there doing his/her job.

[Syncronaut Seven]

36. The minimum wage employees were actually owners, family owned business

Family owned strikes a chord with me.

On one hand, family owned is vastly preferable to corporate owned. On the other hand, it means no corporate overlords. The owners make a conscious decision with each sale, Do you sell alcohol to known alcoholics? What if they have reason to believe that the alcoholic may abuse innocents when drunk?

Or is it just about making a buck?

[SofaKingLiberal]

45. People are responsible for their own actions.

Or is this just about passing the buck?

If this group knows of specific people who are buying liqour at this store then going out and raping/robbing or abusing others, then they can go after those people, I might sympathize more. There is no excuse for this destruction of private property and intimidation.

[LiberalEsto]

9. Just like the old women's temperance movement

that eventually led to Prohibition. They used to take axes and go bust up saloons.

[MrMonk]

43. They didn't pretend to be anyone but who they were.

Destroying property in disguise is vandalism or, perhaps, a terroristic activity.

[MrSlayer]

10. Absolutely vandalism.

Had this been my store there would be some shot up motherfuckers laying all over the floor.

[Kali]

11. Vandalism

[Aimah]

13. The NOI used to preach outside of the stores..

Back in the 60s the NOI would preach in front of the stores and talk to the owners. They usually try not to break the law for the most part.

The first thing I thought when I saw the video was that members of the NOI did it. I'm interested in why that would dress that way also.

[Syncronaut Seven]

44. That would be a good example!

.

[existentialist]

14. Remember Carrie Nation?

Well, actually, I don't either, but the actions are comparable.

Yes, it is vandalism.

It may be social activism too.

How effective it may be as social activism is another question.

[crispini]

28. That's the first thing I thought of, Carrie Nation.

And I agree, why does it have to be an either/or choice? Sometimes vandalism IS social activism.

[napi21]

16. I say it's vandalism.

The stores are there because there's a market for their product.

You mentioned trying to get into the heads of black Americans. Would you say the same thing if this would have been a group of fundies who did this? They don't usually do the vandalism thing, but they fight like hell when someone applies for a license to sell alcohol.

If you really think this kind of thing is the answer to eliminating the sale of products you don't like, think about all the people who refuse to sell the morning after pill, BC pills, and of course those damn family planning clinics who sell ...

[Erika]

24. Young radical Christian Republicans. Definitely

No questions. Liquor today,control women's bodies tomorrow.

[Syncronaut Seven]

40. If it had been fundies, I would want to know how their communities were

affected directly. Would the act be driven by a mindset of control like abortion? Or is alcoholism and it's associated devastation a real problem in their community? Had they tried to address it in other ways?

One thing I do know is that in blue law communities where alcohol isn't sold on Sundays the down and out have to take a break once a week.

Of course, those with means just stockpile.

[Webster Green]

17. Vandalism!

Committed by yet another faction of the American Taliban.

They believe we must think as they do, or suffer the consequences.

[FlemingsGhost]

18. "Alcohol abuse"

Seriously ... vandalism.

[cdb]

20. racist freeptards like this story a lot, too...

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1529071/posts

quoted here for your enjoyment, and so you don't need to wade in the sewage. Surprisingly, all of the words are spelled right, but the syntax is off. I love these guys.

To: philz
Yo. Abdul, let's get all dressed up and vandalize liquor stores. Which bowtie are YOU wearing??
"Muhammed...which tie goes with Ripple, and which goes with Colt .45"

25 posted on 11/26/2005 6:29:24 PM PST by Itzlzha ("The avalanche has already started...it is too late for the pebbles to vote")

To: pointsal
Isn't this a hate crime...
Well, nosireebob, it sure isn't. It can't be. Never. Nope. Impossible.

26 posted on 11/26/2005 6:50:06 PM PST by polymuser (Losing, like flooding, brings rats to the surface.)

[Richard D]

21. The store was set on fire today as well

Link: http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/11/28/MNGMUFV6QG15.DTL

[Selatius]

25. It's moral authoritarianism, not to mention vandalism

These guys are no different than the religious nutjobs in Iraq who have done the very same thing to Iraqi store owners guilty of selling western movies, music, etc., not to mention alcohol. They are also no different than the nutjobs in the US who would blow up clinics and kill people who work at those clinics. It is this form of intolerance that should be brought out into the open and revealed for what it is.

I'm not going to downplay the corrosive effects of alcoholism because it's there for everybody to see, but if we're going to talk about combating a wrong, it would not make sense to commit another wrong to try and correct the first.

It's like saying that one is fighting for freedom and liberty and justifying extra-judicial executions, torture, and the use of banned weapons because the ends justify the means.

[stillcool]

29. Saying one is fighting for freedom and liberty...

...is an out and out Lie. Watching everything around you turn to shit, is a scenario we can all look forward to, and be better able to judge at that time, no? Stopping the powerful from preying on the weak,...yeah, that's fucked up.

[Syncronaut Seven]

48. You forgot your sarcasm smiley!

As each year passes I find myself more sympathetic to direct action.

Once the government, goaded by the people, created laws to protect the weak and vulnerable. Now those same vulnerable seem to be nothing more than targets for exploitation.

[mondo joe]

56. Since when did these people own others like slaves, that they could decide

who could sell what to whom?

[Syncronaut Seven]

59. I think it's less about the need to control

and more about a social/medical/psychiatric/chemical disease out of control.

Symptoms of desperation, pain and neglect often surface in unexpected and ugly ways. I don't defend the action, but question vigorously the underlining causes. Why, is a very good question for all of us to ask.

[mondo joe]

61. That is pure bullshit.

Absolute bullshit.

The underlying cause is the fucked up desire to control others.

[MrMonk]

46. It is terrorism, plain and simple.

But on a local scale.

[stillcool]

26. In my head....it's vandalism....

In my heart...it's rage, and an exercise in power.

[nini]

27. I get a feeling there is more to this than meets the eye

Just a hunch that something else is really going down.

I wonder why the suspects looked so obviously Muslim? Could it be they want the police to think they are Muslim? Are they gang members who want Muslims who may peacefully fighting these stores to be targeted? I could be wrong but this just seems too easy here. Perhaps it is as simple as this is the tactic to take to fight these stores. :shrug:

Guess I'll reserve my final judgment on this one until later, but at this point.. yes, it's vandalism.

[DavidBowman]

31. It's not vandalism

It's a felony and these dopes can and should end up in jail. And if it is a Nation of Islam operation, then that organization can be liable for the damage.

[Warpy]

33. Carrie Nation already tried that one,

and she had more reason than these guys do. Whether or not a man drank was a key to whether or not the rest of his family would survive on the frontier. These guys are against it because of religion.

The only people who are going to suffer at all from this are the insurance people, then minor suffering by all liquor stores. They'll just raise the premiums on ALL liquor store owners, not just the ones in black areas.

All in all, it was a silly, empty gesture that made them more enemies than friends. Like it or not, people will choose things that are bad for them, laws or no laws, religion or no religion. These guys have no business dictating the behavior of other people.

They've done some good things in their comminities. This just isn't one of them.

[Mz Pip]

34. It's vandalism

No one is forcing anyone to buy liquor. Trashing a liquor store will accomplish what exactly?

We would not be making excuses for these people if it had been fundies trashing a pharmacy that sold condoms. This is religious fundamentalism gone berserk.

Crime is crime.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[laureloak]

35. Vandalism. Hope they get arrested. n/t

[ovidsen]

37. anti-Arab vandalism?

News reports, such as the one below, said the men with the pipes and bats criticized the shopkeepers for being Arab/Muslims selling alcohol:

http://cbs5.com/local/local_story_328214757.html

As far as I'm concerned, if Muslims want to operate a legal business that involves alcohol, it's fine with me, even if by the book Islam forbids alcohol. And just because you don't like drinking doesn't give you the right to play Carrie Nation. But I digress...

I wonder, as some other posters have, if the protestors/vandals were just posing as Nation of Islam members, and if they had another, more racist motive for their little spree? I'm not the biggest fan in the world of Louis Farrakhan, but I'd hate for him and his organization to get tarred for something they weren't responsible for. And having once lived in Harlem, I can say that yes, Arab immigrants do own a fair number of liquor stores in at least that particular black neighborhood. And no, these Arab merchants aren't universally loved by their neighbors.

I'd like to know more before I hold the NoI responsible.

[Syncronaut Seven]

49. Local police are treating it as a hate crime.

Few things are what they seem these days.

[Aimah]

69. I've talked to NOIers who criticize Arab-Muslims for selling...

It's not so much Arab bashing. I don't say that to make excuses for it. I've been assumed as Arab by NOIers and told these things about "my people". It's kind of hard to explain and has a lot to do with perceptions of NOIers and Sunni/Shia Muslims against each other. Many among Sunni/Shia do not care for the NOIs use of race issues and their concept of belief in what God is. NOIers in turn take issue with those in the Sunni/Shia that sell pork or alchohol.

Although the NOI doesn't condone these acts of vandalism I have seen and heard of individuals or small groups going out on their own. The head Minister in the area may not have known about this.

[Syncronaut Seven]

75. Fascinating, I didn't know there were rifts between NOI

and Sunni/Shia. Isn't religion grand! Thank you friend. :hi:

[SofaKingLiberal]

38. Vandalism n/t

[stepnw1f]

39. self delete (nt)

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

42. 100% Vandalism, Period. They Are Criminals And Should Be Locked Up

Don't know why I need to put myself in anyone else's head. This one on its face is fairly obvious.

[Syncronaut Seven]

50. "Don't know why I need to put myself in anyone else's head"

Because it's a valuable skill for better understanding our world.

Whenever in conflict, walk a mile in another mans shoes. That way, when it comes down, you'll be a mile away and he will have no shoes. ;)

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

54. You've gotta be kidding LMAO

:rofl: sorry, but that's too much.

I don't need to walk in anyone's shoes to see that destroying peoples liquor stores in violent protest is simply vandalism and criminal.

And I challenge that you won't find anyone more skilled than I at taking myself out of myself and viewing other perspective. But there is no perspective in reality that changes this from being vandalism and criminal, period.

And for the record, I understand the world just fine. I would beg the question of whether someone who thinks these destructive acts posted could actually be thought of in a light exonerating them of vandalism and criminalism is in fact in need of understanding the world a bit better.

[Syncronaut Seven]

57. Perhaps you read too much in my statement Grasshopper.

There is a simpler truth contained within.

To break it down, disregard the subject, then consider the concept.

It's an important part of cultivating empathy, A noble human trait in my opinion.

On edit: Personal attacks are not becoming of someone so worldly as yourself, perhaps you would like to edit?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

58. I don't do personal attacks, nor do I find one, 'grasshopper'.

And your entire post shows the lack of understanding you had when replying to my original post to begin with. I did not need anyone to preach to me about the concepts of putting myself in ones shoes, as wisdom is my forte.

No, grasshopper, that was not the reply. The reply was in context of not needing to be in someone else's shoes for this instance, as there are no shoes of which their soles touch the ground of reality that would make this example in the OP become anything else but vandalism and criminal. It seems apparent now that you did not understand the context, and therefore felt the need to preach wrongly on the grounds that I didn't understand the deep noble concept of walking in others shoes on the whole.

[Syncronaut Seven]

60. That's Grasshopper as in, a proper noun.

Oh wise and worldly one. :rofl:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

62. What is it they say about those who resort to spelling? LMAO

Something about meaning it is an admitance that they lost the argument and have no where else to turn? or somethin like that lol.

Hell, in this case it wasn't even spelling, it was capitalization :rofl:

:hi:

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

66. You just don't quit do you? Hostility towards fellow DU Members?

Please :rofl:

I post many things in support of my fellow DU members, but will also engage in debate when called for. I also do so in as appropiate of a way as possible. As far as the childish attempt at trying to claim me a freeper, well is it an attack to say grow up? I hope not, cause I would think it appropriate to say to somebody who chooses to label someone a freeper simply because they felt they may have lost a debate.

I love DU, I love its members. I also love intellectual debate, and am not above at times engaging in not so intellectual debate. But I don't attack viciously, nor would ever resort to childish tactics such as calling out capitalization or calling someone a freeper simply cause I didn't like the fact they could debate me.

I think it's time to end this sub thread, don't you?

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TankLV]

81. Grow up or get lost.

[mondo joe]

63. Given your use of "underlining" you're in a poor position to play

grammar nazi.

Or is that Nazi?

[Syncronaut Seven]

65. Edit for inappropriate response

I won't bite the veterans, I won't bite the veterans, I won't bite the veterans, I won't bite the veterans, I won't bite the veterans, I won't bite the veterans, I won't bite the veterans, I won't bite the veterans, I won't bite the veterans, I won't bite the veterans,

At least I'll try really hard. :hippie:

[mondo joe]

68. What "personal attacks" are those?

You get on a poster's case for grammar, but when I point out your own grammar failures I'm attacking?

You're really something.

[Mr_Spock]

47. Dumb

Accomplishes nothing good.

[Syncronaut Seven]

51. Thank you all! Perhaps I'm a bit more radical, or perhaps angrier

about corporate drug pushers. (not the owners so much, but the manufacturers)

I think it's both activism and vandalism. I also think it's desperate and sad.

If false flag or direct activism, something is seriously wrong. I think we need to flood such acts with light, turn over the stone to look underneath. See what we find.

Again, thank you all for your heartfelt opinions!

Syncro.

[EFerrari]

84. A suggestion: it's possible to be an effective activist

without needless violence.

:hi:

[Syncronaut Seven]

87. Yes, but I'm worried

Not everyone sees it that way. I'm pretty fearless, spent a year back in my old stomping grounds in LA back in '03. I went everywhere, any time, and struck up conversations with everyone I met.

Up for consideration was permanent residence. It had been 30 years since I lived there last. What I heard and saw really frightened me.

Not the Bangers, (I talked to a few in San Fernando and Century City) But the fact that the level of tension on the street is rising, across the board. Things are not getting better. That, and the lightly guarded Chevron refinery in El Segundo. :scared:

[EFerrari]

88. Si, entiendo. But violence is never a real answer.

When a person lashes out like that, they have already lost.

[Syncronaut Seven]

93. And violence leaves marks that never heal, changes lives,

Degrades and cheapens humanity. It's the first option of cowards and bullies, the last option of the brave, not an option at all for saints.

Yet, it is a disturbing bellweather, If it's coming to this, we need to examine why. And when I say we, I mean all of America. To DU'ers I'm just preaching to the choire. ;)

BTW, as of 2003, there are still burned out sections of LA, recovery is slow. Sadness and regret remain.

[EFerrari]

96. Be safe.

Both my officer grandfather and my socialist grandmother would say, first, be safe. Then, never give up.

:toast:

[donco6]

52. Do you even have to ask? eom

[mondo joe]

53. Vandalism. They don't OWN African Americans, they don't own the bar.

Nothing but vandalism.

[ErisFiveFingers]

71. Up next: beating women for not wearing hijab?

Gotta love whackos who resort to violence in order to enforce their ideas of social norms.

[Syncronaut Seven]

82. Hehe.. Kind of like the Portland PD

Remember the "riot" of '02? I do.

On August 22, about 500 demonstrators outside a downtown Portland, Oregon hotel were assaulted by riot police, who attacked the protesters with batons, tear gas, rubber bullets, bean-bag rounds and “pepper balls” The demonstrators had gathered to protest Bush’s environmental and economic policies and the administration’s war threat against Iraq. The WSWS received the following letter from a protester whose family was pepper-sprayed during the demonstration.

This is an open letter describing our experience and an urgent call to action.

First and foremost, I want to thank from the bottom of my heart the kind human beings who helped my children, my wife and me after we were pepper sprayed by the Portland Police. We were aided immediately by fellow demonstrators, the Black Cross and passersby caught in the crossfire. These people shielded us with their bodies and soothed us with their treatments and words, and argued with police, putting themselves in danger, to secure our safe passage through the cordon. Their actions stand in beautiful contrast to the savage inhumanity of the police.

We brought our children to a peaceful protest, we stayed in the back and we were walking on the sidewalk. The march stopped at the intersection of 2nd and Alder, we could not see why from our position on the SW corner of the intersection. Police quickly moved up behind us and a moment or two later sprayed pepper spray into the crowd from the NE corner of the intersection. The crowd ran toward us to escape the spray. We asked the officer closest to us how we should exit the intersection. He pointed and said to exit to the NE, into the spraying police opposite him.

As the crowd pressed toward us I yelled to him to let us through (south on 2nd) because we had three small children. He looked at me, and drew out his can from his hip and sprayed directly at me. I was at an angle to him and the spray hit my right eye and our three-year-old, who I was holding in my right arm. In the same motion he turned the can on my wife, who was holding our 10-month-old baby and doused both of their heads entirely from a distance of less than three feet. My six-year-old daughter was holding my left hand and was not hit directly.

We ended up on the sidewalk a few feet down Alder with fellow protesters holding my screaming children and pouring water on our eyes. Someone yelled that the police had said that we could pass through the cordon on Alder with the children. I picked up the baby and other protesters brought my wife and other children to the police line. We attempted to pass through, but they leaned in shoulders to block us. I yelled at them to let us pass for about two minutes and finally some officer up the line nodded me and the baby through. They were not going to let my wife and other children out, but after a few minutes of pleading from the crowd and another signal from up the line they let them out. As we passed, the officers were laughing and said something to the effect of “that’s why you shouldn’t bring kids to protests.”

I immediately called 911 as we moved up to the corner of 3rd and Alder. I explained that a baby had been directly pepper sprayed and that I needed an ambulance. They informed me that they would not send one and that all protesters were to report to a first aid tent on the other side of the police lines. Fellow protesters aided us until Black Cross arrived. Business people brought water from the nearby offices and someone bought some juice for the children. Two KBOO staffers drove up in their Volvo and took us to Emmanuel ER. One of the protesters who had helped us from the beginning accompanied us to the hospital and waited with us until the kids were admitted (special thanks!). The children were examined for respiratory problems and chemical burns. Luckily all were only suffering “normal” pepper spray reactions that have no treatment but to wait. The pediatrician kept us a little longer so that she could call poison control to check for other recommended procedures, as she had never in her career seen an infant pepper spray victim.

On the way to the ER my three-year-old said that those guys back there were trying to get us and said we should call the police.

That is the story.

[ErisFiveFingers]

101. I'm newish to PDX.

A red state immigrant. I've heard some horror stories, but gassing infants and kids? Oh my.

Oh my.

How does one volunteer for the "black cross"?

[Syncronaut Seven]

104. Startled us too! Portland has a strong community on many levels

This type of aggression was new. It swept in with a police chief reject from LA named Mark Kroeker. Mark Kroeker now works for the South African Police, no joke.

http://communique.portland.or.us/03/08/portland_police_chief_kroeker_abruptly_resigns_at_request_of_intermediaries.html

Brought in by a very pro business mayor, Kroeker brought LA style policing to our humble hamlet.

Followed shortly by the FBI's JTTF (Joint Terrorism Task Force). JTTF proceeded to use Portland as a training ground for riot police from all over the country, thus explaining the puzzling and dis-proportionate presence in the streets. They picked the peace-nicks to practice their craft on, bastards.

We've seen the future, we now understand the rules of the game.

Will PM for details on activism.

Peace.

[Aimah]

72. Press Release about another issue.

I would have linked this but DU has a policy of no linking to certain sites. Not sure if this one applies so to be sure I'll just post the release. This is not in response to what happened at the liquor store but just an example of what could have happened. The release is from their official website.



September 5, 2005


Press Release

Nation of Islam, Minister Tony Muhammad and Muhammad's Mosque #27's Official Statement In Rebuttal to "Jihad" Flyer

It has come to the attention of the Nation of Islam, Minister Tony Muhammad and Muhammad’s Mosque #27 of Los Angeles California, that a flyer is circulating in and around the Los Angeles area requesting that the Crips and the Bloods join the Nation of Islam in an attack on the Los Angeles Police Department.

The Nation of Islam religiously, historically, and categorically rejects aggression. The Nation of Islam, through the efforts of the Honorable Minister Louis Farrakhan and his western regional representative, Minister Tony Muhammad, has worked tirelessly to bring peace between the Crips, the Bloods, and the Los Angeles Police Department as a whole.

The Nation of Islam would not and will not engage in actions that would undermine decades of bridge-building and peace-making. The Nation of Islam, Minister Tony Muhammad and Muhammad’s Mosque #27 appreciates any support it can receive from members of the community in its peaceful and lawful struggle against police brutality, however, the Nation of Islam rejects the efforts of anyone or any group that seeks to bring further disruption, chaos, and bloodshed to an already tense and volatile situation.

The creation and dissemination of this flyer is an obvious and deliberate attempt by a person or persons outside of the Nation of Islam to make mischief and increase violence in Los Angeles. Therefore, the Nation of Islam, Minister Tony Muhammad and Muhammad Mosque #27 of Los Angeles California absolutely disavows any connection and support to any flyer, person, or group that seeks to increase violence in the city of Los Angeles.

[Syncronaut Seven]

73. Good follow up! Thank you.

Nation of Islam is far larger and more pervasive than people realize. The USG is terrified of them. Their low profile is no accident.

I've always secretly hoped that they would do the dirty work the complacent seem to timid to do.

Sick huh?

Research the influence they have inside the US penal system, fascinating. They have saved a lot of men bound for destruction. I don't know enough to advocate strongly, but I respect them for the fact that they save lives and protect the weak within their own domain.

[sakabatou]

77. Vandalism

The place was also torched yesterday.

[TankLV]

79. Vandalism. Disgusting behavior. They are no "christians"

or "god fearing" people - they are scum - hoodlums.

[RoyGBiv]

86. This is vandalism ...

It's also a few other things. The "warning" bit is particularly disturbing. I've been "warned" a few times by customers at various jobs. At least two of them spent time in jail for assault when they tried to make good on their warnings.

As for your suggestion to get inside the heads of "black America," I'll offer a counter-suggestion that anyone who supports this kind of activity try to get inside the heads of the operators, employees, and patrons of legal businesses who are subjected to these sorts of violent outbursts before passing judgment on them. To extend the logic out, if this sort of behavior is acceptable, then one could argue the physical destruction of anything that offends a person deeply is acceptable. I should be able to walk into a Christian church and fill the baptismal full of blood, taking a whiz on the crucifix when I'm done, and tearing up all the hymnals as I walk out the door. I and people like me have been oppressed severely, to the point of ritualized murder in days gone by, by these people. Using the logic that this kind of thing is okay, I should be excused.

Of course I don't believe that and would never do such a thing. Socially responsible ways exist to protest against the liquor industry, and this is not one of them.

[Syncronaut Seven]

90. Again, Justification? NO. Examination? YES

If we don't look at the underlying causes and motivations long and hard it will happen again, and again, and again.

Summary of possible causes so far:

Simple Thuggery
Social activism
Blackmail/protection
False flag operation
Business competition
Religious fanaticism
Did I miss anything?

This is the meat of what I'm after. Why? Just like 9/11, Why? Just like NOLA, Why? Just like Iraq, Why?

[RoyGBiv]

94. I understand that, but ...

Your question contrasted "vandalism" and "social activism," which is what I was addressing. In truth, vandalism can be social activism, so this is really both, but my contention is that (on the surface anyway because due to the cirumstances that I've noticed from following the thread it could be something else entirely with a far more nefarious motivation) it is primarily vandalism disguised as social activism. That is, in my view, it's not socially responsible activism, i.e. not a way to positively affect a change in the practices of the industry.

As implied, the "why" could be a lot of things, some of which are entirely speculative. If it is genuine protest, I truly do understand the "why." (I offered a post above noting a brief history of my own with the liquor industry.) I just don't support the tactic.

[nomatrix]

89. The article ends with...

"On Saturday, members of the Nation of Islam joined elected officials and a group representing Middle Eastern convenience store owners to condemn the vandalism. No one has been arrested."

[Syncronaut Seven]

97. Bingo! That's what this thread is about!

If out of the ashes rises cooperation, understanding and new hope for a better future, then some good has come.

Or perhaps, I just read too much in to your reply. :hippie:

[Pushed To The Left]

91. Definitely vandalism

There are much better ways for people to make their voice heard.

[rucky]

99. what a bunch of shitheads. they should visit Wal-Mart

and leave the mom & pop shops alone.

[NMMNG]

100. It is vandalism, plain and simple

I don't give a darn what color their skin is or who they worship, they trashed a store, thereby committing vandalism.

[RebelOne]

103. I saw on CNN this morning that the liquor store

was burned. Police say it was arson.

[mysterywriter]

105. Vandalism, of course. This is

what jail is for.

[RagingInMiami]

106. They're lucky they didn't get shot

[slor]

107. The Head (and Mind) of this African American calls it...

vandalism. I understand their intent, but there are better ways to do it.

[porphyrian]

108. The only difference between this and collecting protection money...

...is that they didn't collect any money. It's a fear tactic that probably falls under the Patriot Act definition of terrorism.

If someone doesn't like the effects of alcohol on members of their community, they should work towards solving the problem rather than by creating new ones. Alcohol abuse is a symptom, not the root cause. Education, opportunity and justice would go a long way to solve it, at least up to the numbers experienced by the community at large.

[sendero]

109. Oh I see...

... black folks need to be protected from alcohol.

What a crock of fundamentalist horseshit.

Vandalism is too nice a word for this action.

[LeftHander]

110. Mob extortion...booze distribution is mob controlled....

...and turf wars between distributors has been known to be bitter.

Nothing to do with islam.