The Repukes don't need Rove OR us next time. They have Diebold

[MoonRiver]

or its facsimiles. Am I wrong?

[goclark]

1. No you are not wrong

If we don't wake up and understand it, Rove will be President in 08 and Jenna Bush after that term.

[MoonRiver]

2. Maybe Fitzgerald will save us from Rove.

But Jenna is definitely in the pipeline, that is if she wants the job. Diebold may elect her anyway! :crazy:

[QC]

3. Yep. That's why we lost so bad in Virginia and Jersey a couple weeks ago.

Those were some real asswhoopings.

In all seriousness, I agree with you about the threat of voting machine fraud, but what purpose do you think is served by a thread like this one? Unless you have something to say about fixing the problem, all you are doing is just repeating something that's been said thousands of times here and makes people feel helpless.

[goclark]

5. That is exactly why it should be repeated

We need to keep it on the front burner until somebody comes up with a way to make DIEBOLD bit the dust.

[QC]

7. There's a difference between discussing the threat

and stating over and over that all elections are fixed and all hope is lost.

Every time we get some good news here about an election, the Eeyore Corps leaps into action to tell us that we'll never win, Karl Rove is controlling the elections from his office, democracy is dead, etc.

It's been old for a long time. Educating people about the threat and planning ways to take action is one thing, but pointless negativity is quite another.

[MoonRiver]

8. Just keep your head in the sand, and everything will be fine.

That's the mentality you're promoting. Frankly, I am furious that this issue hasn't been front and center of the political debate, at least from the Democrats point of view, since these corrupt machines were first exposed. And that was right after the stolen election of 2000 when Charlie Rangle and others of the Black Caucus, NATURALLY, revealed how great a threat we would be facing if our votes were "counted" by these highly hackable paperless computers. WAKE UP FRIEND.

[QC]

10. My head's not in the sand,

but yours certainly appears to be lodged somewhere it shouldn't be. Pull it out and you'll be able to read much better and thus respond to what people actually write. (It might also help a bit with your disposition.)

As I've said twice so far, I agree about the threat of the voting machines. What I object to is the attitude of hopeless and helplessness that threads like this one (and its twin in GDP, "Why vote in a rigged election?") engender. If you have something to say about solving the problem, then feel free to share it. But just repeating for the 10,000th time this week that elections are rigged doesn't accomplish anything.

[MoonRiver]

11. The fact is that ELECTIONS ARE BEING RIGGED!

Does ignoring or minimizing this fact help? We need to be screaming about this nonstop. Then maybe people will get organized to demand their SoSs ban these machines forever.

[QC]

12. For the third time, I agree with you.

Would you like for me to put it in gigantic red letters? Would that help?

Hmmm. Let's try it and see.

I agree with you that voting machine fraud is a very real issue. I hate those fucking machines.

My point, which you apparently don't want to address, is that constantly harping on a problem while failing to talk about solutions is a good way to promote hopelessness. After all, why should anyone bother to vote if the all-powerful and all-knowing Karl Rove decided the thing months ago? Convince enough people of that and the Republicans won't even have to cheat.

[MoonRiver]

13. LOL, point taken :-)

I don't know what to do except try to get people to pay attention to and deal with the problem. The only way we can deal with it is to force our elected Democratic officials to get rid of these vile machines! It's frustrating, and sometimes I get overly excited in my frustration!!

:argh:

[goclark]

14. We will still vote, just as we did in CA and VA and NJ

the point for me is that the issue must remain in the face of the Republicans so they will know that we are on to them and their nasty machines.

I have seen enough threads here that point out the tricks that they have used.

We just need more rethug whistleblowers.

My hope is that if we say it enough, someone will come forward and give us the magic juice to nail um with it.

I see it as a puzzle that needs to be solved.

There is nothing wrong with saying that a piece is missing and we are well aware that you can find that missing piece if we keep pushing.

To sit here and say nothing is exactly what the Republicans want us to do.

They don't bully me and Democrats need to keep on challenging the system.

[MoonRiver]

15. I'm definitely voting, and I'm in KS.

I want my vote counted, regardless of how the rest of my state votes. But just like you goclark, I don't want the information about vote rigging to be swept under the rug.

[MoonRiver]

6. The point is to get people focused on stopping the spread of

these machines in their states! If something isn't done we're in deep doo doo. I don't care if JHC runs on the Democratic ticket, as long as paperless computers count our votes we're cooked.

[Stevepol]

4. Don't forget ES&S, Sequoia, Micro-Vote, Triad, etc.

Of course, the voting machines that are built to actually attempt to make the vote transparent (like Avante and a few others) are never bought or even certified by the elections people across the country.

Not that any machine should be counting votes without voter-verified paper-ballot print-outs (and required audits for all elections) and where the paper becomes the official tally in case the recounts and the machine count are in conflict.

It's tiresome to keep repeating this mantra, but since it seems that the people are being hypnotized by the marketing of the voting machine companies, it has to be repeated ad infinitum until people wake up from their very deep hypnotic slumber: DEMAND A VOTER-VERIFIED PAPER BALLOT AND AUDITS FOR EVERY ELECTION.

Just because one or two elections go our way does not affect the principle at all: a democracy demands a fair and transparent vote counting procedure. Without it, we don't have a democracy. When we privatize the vote and let radical partisans of one side count the vote without any oversight at all, a democracy is impossible.

[MoonRiver]

9. Thank you!

It is almost impossible to believe that our elected Democratic officials haven't made a huge stink about all this. At least part of the reason Kerry lost is definitely due to computer voting machines being manipulated. But still the denial goes on and on and on!