TNR To Dean: Don't Be A Roach-Hater

[DrFunkenstein]

Let me say up front that The New Republic hardly represents my worldview. They're a little too supply-side, a little too hawkish for my tastes. I very often disagree vehemently with them. But I think this time, they've touched a nerve that was exposed by Dean's "outsider" schtick (or rather his blasts on "insiders," since Clark doesn't partake of this kind of crap):

NO RESPECT
by Adam B. Kushner

Candidate: Howard Dean
Category: General Likeability
Grade: F

As part of his anti-Beltway ethic, Dean boasts that he's the only candidate with executive experience. (Wesley Clark has executive experience, too, but not in a strictly political sense.) And it's hardly surprising that, as of last night's AARP forum, Kerry had heard Dean's horn-tooting one too many times.

Kerry cited the 1993 budget battle, in which "without one vote from the Republicans ... we not only balanced the budget, we paid down the debt of our nation two successive years." Dean's haughty reply was reminiscent of Al Gore's eye-rolling during the 2000 debates: "I think we know it's governors and presidents who submit budgets and get them balanced, though we absolutely need legislators to help." In one fell swoop, he cast his stage-mates, 535 United States congressmen, thousands of state legislators, and several times as many city- and county-council members as, well, enablers.

I've never bought into the argument that Dean's ad hominem attacks on President Bush and the GOP congressmen convey insufficient respect for their offices, but maybe I was wrong. In a comment earlier this week, Dean declared that if he were elected, members of Congress would be "scurrying for shelter, just like a giant flashlight on a bunch of cockroaches."

The predictable retraction notwithstanding, it's almost unbelievable that any such sentiment could escape Dean's mouth. The gaffe reveals a public self-reverence even the most reportedly egomaniacal candidates (Sharpton, Clark, Kerry) have not yet managed. If Dean is ever elected president, he will have to deal with every peon on Capitol Hill, like it or not. How does he expect them to do business with him now?

http://www.tnr.com/primary/index.mhtml?pid=867

<>

[dsc]

1. So were they Reagan's defictis or Congress's

I seem to recall Democrats scorning Republicans who tried to blame the deficts on Congress. It seems that is precisely what the TNR theory states. So have I been wrongly blaming Reagan all these years? Do I need to make an amends.

[The Zanti Regent]

14. The New Republican don't care

The asses who run the New Republican are unabashedly supporting Joe Looneyman for President 24/7 and they make no apologies.

After All, Looneyman as the Democratic Nominee will guarantee a landslide victory for the Chimp, which is precisely what The New Republican wants!

[poskonig]

2. Where are the facts?

In NH, for instance, Dean's unfavorables are around 14% for likely primary voters. Since this is ten points lower than his nearest competitors, including Clark and Kerry, your conclusion needs to be revised to something like this:

Candidate: Howard Dean
Category: General Likeability
Grade: A

[DrFunkenstein]

3. This Is Part of a Series

Sometimes they give favorable grades, sometimes less favorable. They rarely use "F" though. They attack Kerry and Clark just as well, don't worry.

[Prodemsouth]

11. Yeah, Their man is Lieberman, which means

they are happy with Bush. Did I mention I hate the New Republic(an) and think they should all be put out of their/our misery. This mag started Andrew Sullivan- so it deserves to die along with left wing defeatist elitist at the Nation and Countrerpunch,too.

[DrFunkenstein]

12. Do You Like Any Magazines?

Mother Jones? Harpers?

[DoveTurnedHawk]

4. While I Disagree With What Dean Said Here

The TNR grades have been stupid in their vitriol, against all candidates.

DTH

[DrFunkenstein]

5. I Agree With You, Which Is Why I Rarely Bother With Them

But this one seemed spot on.

[JNelson6563]

10. But you loathe Dean

so we can hardly count your assessment of reich-wing rag TNR as objective.

I think all their hit pieces on all the candidates have sucked mightily. They are almost as infuriating/absurd as some of the ads they print.

Julie

[DrFunkenstein]

15. But Do You Disagree With The Post?

Do you think it is right to call members of Congress - and he was aske if he excepted Democrats - cockroaches?

Do you think that Congress has never balanced a budget?

I have said I think TNR is usually trash. But...

Sweet are the uses of adversity,
Which like the toad, ugly and venomous,
Wears yet a precious jewel in his head;
And this our life exempt from public haunt,
Finds tongues in trees, books in the running brooks,
Sermons in stones, and good in every thing.
I would not change it.

[dsc]

16. He used a simile

I would think people who write for a living would recognize the difference. I guess not.

[DrFunkenstein]

21. I Teach For A Living

And I know the difference between metaphors and similies after studying semiotics in grad school.

Let's try another simile: Dean is not unlike a runny nose sliding down the levels of discourse.

[dsc]

22. the professional writer remark

referred to TNR and the people there do in fact write for a living.

[bitchkitty]

41. Try not to be so objective.

Dean is not unlike a runny nose sliding down the levels of discourse.

[Classical_Liberal]

17. He said they would flee like cockroaches

and yes Delay is a cockroach that is why we call him bugman. Most people dislike Congress because of things like the Syria accountability act which could help the PNAC in the war efforts. Everyone should be aware by now that tnr is propnac and discount their views.

[JNelson6563]

24. I think as highly of the post as I do the rag it

is drawn from. Let's examine the key paragraph you seem to have seized upon:

I've never bought into the argument that Dean's ad hominem attacks on President Bush and the GOP congressmen convey insufficient respect for their offices, but maybe I was wrong.

This is delightfully insightful. Poor, poor pResident Bush and his pals in congress. All those ad hominem attacks from Governor Dean!! <snarf> You're joking right?

Ok, I'll move on:

In a comment earlier this week, Dean declared that if he were elected, members of Congress would be "scurrying for shelter, just like a giant flashlight on a bunch of cockroaches."

Though I may be being a bit more particular than you here I'd like to know what preceeded those quotation marks. Aside from I am guessing you are viewing this as name-calling and are asserting that congress will now never work with Dean.

Ok, here's a primer.

Name-calling: Congress is nothing but a bunch of cock-roaches.
No name-calling: "(whoever he was referring to in congress specifically is conveniently omitted) scurrying for shelter, just like a giant flashlight on a bunch of cockroaches."

See the difference? One is directly applying a name to a group. The other is likening future behavior (by exactly whom we are not sure--again, conveniently omitted) to that of cock-roaches.

I recall so clearly when John McCain was running, one of the things I likes so much that he said was he would work on legislation that went against the big-business supporters of some in congress. Promised that those who obstructed such legislation would become familiar to us as he's let us know their names--each and every one of them.

I have no problem with it. Tell me, would you agree that indeed there are some in congress who, when faced with an actual elected President who didn't share their love of corporate greed, might actually scurry like cock-roaches?

For a professional writer you seem extremely vulnerable to subtle nuances and omissions. Framing the language and all that. Interesting.

Julie

[DrFunkenstein]

26. Nice Try, But...No

MONTROSE, Iowa, Oct. 14 — Howard Dean, who is increasingly giving his presidential candidacy an anti-Washington cast, cranked up his rhetoric on Tuesday, saying that if he won, members of Congress were "going to be scurrying for shelter, just like a giant flashlight on a bunch of cockroaches."

His jab at Capitol Hill, institutional home to four of Dr. Dean's five main rivals for the nomination, came in response to a question about how he would handle Congress and the entrenched Beltway bureaucracy. The questioner mentioned Republicans and Democrats alike, and Dr. Dean made no distinction.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/15/politics/campaigns/15DEAN.html

And you are completely misreading the ad hominem part. Look again. The writer is saying he once believed that Dean was above ad hominem attacks, but now he is not so sure.

Which makes sense as Dean condemns people merely for being a part of Congress.

Clearly Dean is going to bring integrity back to the White House.

[Classical_Liberal]

27. Why do we care when we think the congress that enabled Bush

deserves exactly that fate? There aren't many in the Dean camp who think much of the Times.

[DrFunkenstein]

30. Than Dean People Are More Fringe Than I Imagined

I was pissed they under-reported the protests (none of which Dean attended), and their coverage is slanted to Israel, but they're still one of the most legitimate news sources around.

[Classical_Liberal]

33. Al Sharpton ain't my ID image, so I guess you should know

.

[AP]

36. A lot of those cockroaches are Dems who need to win Senate races next fall

when 19 Democratic incumbants are up for reelection. The Repulbicans, I believe (this is from information from DU, and not from reality) only have one seat to lose, and Democrats have 19.

[Classical_Liberal]

38. Dean is running next year too.

Over half of the Dems voted for it which is a number much greater than 19. I also think the issue is a loser, and the trend is going the other way.

[JNelson6563]

40. "Nice try"?? And you say you dislike arrogance?

Interesting.

Ok, in another category (where interestingly enough one might detect more arrogance) we have my seeming inablitiy to grasp a part of the story:

I've never bought into the argument that Dean's ad hominem attacks on President Bush and the GOP congressmen convey insufficient respect for their offices, but maybe I was wrong.

It appears to me that the author disagreed with the assertion that "Dean's ad hominem attacks" on our Dear Leader and his helpful friends in congress "convey insufficient respect for their offices". I see him take no issue with the term "ad hominem". Seeing as there are no quotes around the term in his article, it would appear to be his choice of words. The change seems to be that the author now agrees that Dean does not convey enough respect for "their offices".

What was your take on that blurb of the article again? Oh yes, here it is:

And you are completely misreading the ad hominem part. Look again. The writer is saying he once believed that Dean was above ad hominem attacks, but now he is not so sure.

Really?? That is what you think it says?? Seriously??

Julie

[JNelson6563]

42. I am kickin' this

so our resident writing teacher can help me to understand this reading comprehension issue....

Julie the pupil

[DrFunkenstein]

43. You Are Right - I Gave Dean Too Much Credit

I'm not sure where you got that I am a writing teacher or that I used the word "arrogance," but I won't mention that. Suffice it to say that no one would suggest that Dean is above ad hominem attacks, only that they were cheaper than even the author had imagined. Is that closer to the spirit of the original?

Now the question remains - why would Dean use a (cough cough) simile likening Congress (D & R alike, no distinctions) to cockroachs?

[JNelson6563]

47. wrong again

You misread the author's meaning. You claimed I did.

So tell me, do you also refuse to admit an error with your elemetary students too? This has been a most enlightening exchange Doc. Seems I've had many exchanges that turned out to be revealing about posters I once thought rather highly of. Sad.

Not nearly as smart as I thought you were and perhaps, a little less healthy psychologically (indicated by the lack of ability to admit your real error). Are you aware of the malady that stands in the way of one admitting error?

Julie

[not systems]

6. Dean is right.

It will not hurt him to bash congress.

I think congress should be bashed they are
nothing but enablers for Bush's looting of America.

Dean is very likeable it is the congress who
is unlikeable. Only the Washington insiders
like TNR could love an institution that is
bought and sold by big money lobbyists.

Running against Washington is and has been a winning
stance. It has been used by Clinton in 1992.
Running against congress will work even better
now that Republicans hold both houses.

I say Dean is on the winning path.

To bad for all the Washington insider in the race.

[DrFunkenstein]

13. Kerry Has Never Accepted Soft Money

He has a a lifetime rating of 96.5 - after 18 years! - from the League of Conservation Voters. He gets outstanding marks year after year from Public Citizen and the Sierra Club. He opposed his party on Defense of Marriage. He fought for gays in the military. He has an amazing record against corporate crime and corporate welfare. He is the ranking Democrat on the Small Business Committee. He has repeatedly voted to slash the Pentagon and Defense budgets to move revenue to social programs.

This guy is a cockroach?

[not systems]

18. He is one of 11...

currently not on the "cockroach" list in the senate.

I do think that running from the senate is harder
that from a governorship because taking the "throw
the bastards" out stand is a little difficult from
the hill.

I think throw the bastards out is a winning angle
this year and the best chance for a turn over in
control of the congress.

[Classical_Liberal]

19. Kerry enabled Bush so it doesn't matter really

. TNR's editor contributed to the Bush campaign and they support Bush, and the PNAC so ofcoarse they like Bush's enablers.

[JNelson6563]

37. will scurry like cock-roaches

We still do not know what preceeded that, why don't you hunt it down? You're obviously quite fond of the quote, why not find it all and commit it to memory? Maybe embroider it on a pillow? I think you are splitting hairs and getting it wrong.

The answer to your question, no, I do not think Kerry is a cock-roach and I am damn glad to see he finally remembered how to say "no". Better late than never (though I imagine many a mourning Iraqi may disagree).

You really think congress will not work with Dean? C'mon, get real. Bush has repeatedly blamed stuff on congress (even while his party's held majority!) and yet they've all too often tripped over themselves (R's & D's alike) to "stand shoulder to shoulder with pResident Bush."

Look, I plan to vote for Kerry in the General if he gets the nomination because of his long-term record. It is his behavior of the past 2.5+ years that drives me to work for someone else to get the nom.

Julie

[bleedingheart]

7. Santorum, Specter, Tim Murphy, Melissa Hart ..are Roaches

I can say that with authority since they hail from my poorly represented state of Pennsylvania...

[WillyBrandt]

8. TNR is Schizophrenic

Sometimes they publish truly excellent and superb Democratic (and non-political) writing. Unfortunately, they put it next to some weird wing-nut crap.

The TNR Primary is pure insider whining and bitching. Some of their longer articles are good, but the primary is just ridiculous.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

9. TNR: The New Republican!!!!!

This is a real Rag, Toilet Paper if you will!!!!!

:eyes:

[legin]

20. Dean's right

There have been some really awful votes gone through the House and Senate this past week, the Syria Accountability Act, the first building block to attacking Syria being a notable example.

If Dean included the UN Security Council, for its recent vote, in his 'roach list I would be even happier.

[DrFunkenstein]

23. This Is Fundamentally Disrespectful Of More Than Tom Delay

<>

[Classical_Liberal]

25. Many dems voted to authorize this war

. they are the ones that need to be reflective. Not Dean.

[DrFunkenstein]

28. You're Right

Dean has no need to be reflective. I should actually encourage more remarks like this. It plays great with the college kids. I'm not sure how seniors will take it, though.

"Majorities of likely Democratic voters in three states with early primaries or caucuses say they prefer a presidential nominee who supported military action against Iraq but criticized President Bush for failing to assemble international support over a candidate who opposed military action from the beginning, according to new polls conducted by the liberal Democracy Corps."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A38335-2003Oct16.html

[Classical_Liberal]

29. The trend is turning though

Dean is and always has been ahead of the pack. He is not running feeble and risk adverse. ALL the articles you have cited are war hawk publications who are biased, and probably run biased polls. TNR polls show Lieberman as being a contender.

[DrFunkenstein]

31. From Yesterday?

That is pretty far ahead of the pack, I admit it.

[Classical_Liberal]

32. The trend has denfinately turned against the war since it started

Dean isn't a dlc chicken.

[Zynx]

35. Also that poll is messed up.

The way the question was worded you get a weird answer like that. Only 22% of Democrats in the last poll I saw said the candidate should have supported the war outright. In addition, some of those may be saying that just because they think the candidate would be more electable that way.

[DrFunkenstein]

44. What Would Constitute A DLC Chicken?

A 100% rating from the NRA? Endorsing the death penalty? Handing out environmental awards to your state's biggest polluter? Sealing your records? Promising Ariel Sharon - personally! - 4x the military aid on a trip paid for by AIPAC?

What exactly makes for such a chicken?

Considering that Kerry has NEVER accepted a PAC contribution, and has a 96.5% LIFETIME (18 years) rating from the League of Conservation voters, I hardly think it applies to him, except to say that he builds bridges across the Party rather than polarizing everyone (and calling them cockroaches)?

[Starpass]

34. Dean just gave every challenger to a Dem held seat a lovely

image to use in the '04 elections if Dean is the nominee. They will put up a snap of Dean and say, "see, even the Dems presidential nominee says Senator X or Rep. Y is a cockroach". Tell me, how does he go stump for these candidates in the future??--that's part of the package you buy into when you become a party's nominee. Or are we going to get the "Savior Man" who says "I don't need these other fucking Dems" - just vote for me and I'll save the world with a 100% republican Congress!!! Can you now see why the Dem senators/reps, etc. don't like this man?? Do you think it will be super cool to have Dean rip them all new assholes and destroy them???----if so, then we might as well vote Bush because that's exactly what he wants to do as well. It saves the taxpayers having to redecorate the Oval Office again!!

[Classical_Liberal]

39. This presumes the public is sympathetic to Senator X

I don't.

[DrFunkenstein]

45. Related TNR Post On Dean

EGO TRIPPI
by Franklin Foer

Candidate: Howard Dean
Category: General Likeability
Grade: F

On Sunday, The New York Times gave lots of attention to a very little story. The paper contended that John Kerry and Dick Gephardt are in cahoots to sink their rival Howard Dean. While the paper pointed out the obvious--the two campaigns have a shared interest in whacking the good doctor--it provided almost no evidence to substantiate their cooperation.

But buried in the story, the Times reporter David Halbfinger reveals a telling piece of reportage. He quotes Joe Trippi, Dean's campaign manager, this way: "It's the Beltway boys hanging out together. This is the kind of inside Washington politics that people are sick of."

This is exactly the type of line that Trippi has constantly stitched onto his "outsider" candidate. And like so many of Trippi's lines, it requires that he overlooks vast chunks of reality. As Gephardt's manager Steve Murphy, not a guy normally inclined towards backstabbing, points out a bit later in the story: "Two weeks ago Trippi ran into me and some of my staffers at Dulles airport and suggested that instead of attacking Howard Dean on Medicare, we should help him and Howard Dean attack Wesley Clark. This was a lengthy conversation."

In other words, when Trippi laments his opponents' collaboration, he is being a rank hypocrite. Come to think of it, which consultant has an inside the beltway firm? For those of you keeping track at home, the address of Trippi-McMahan is 1029 North Royal St. Suite 350 Alexandria, VA 22314.

<>

Joe Trippi, quintessential Beltway boy.

But it was hard not to notice that all the people surrounding Dean were veterans of the same-old, same-old Democratic Party. Dean campaign manager Joe Trippi is a longtime Democratic political consultant who has worked on the campaigns of Edward Kennedy, Walter Mondale and Gary Hart, and in 1988 he even worked for current Dean opponent Dick Gephardt.

Trip coordinator Matt Vogel worked for Gore, as did Kelly McMahon, Dana Singiser, Aram Kailian, Patricia Enright (who was Gore's deputy director of communications) and numerous other Dean operatives appearing at one time or another on the Sleepless Summer Tour.

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20031006&c=5&s=taibbi

[dsc]

46. Talking about lacking evidence

We have a one sided very self serving description of an airport encounter. I'm just curious what difference was there between the NYT account and theirs. Did the NYT rely on ouija boards?