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Code_Name_D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 02:02 PM
Original message
The Shadow falls over Wesley Clark.

The Shadow falls over Wesley Clark.


The March of the Skeletons.
From get go, I noticed that aura about Clark. It was nothing I could put my finger on mind you just that something about a man who was running, who wasn't "technically" running. Who seemed just a little too chummy with the DNC.

Never the less, he had an impressive following. Many a person who's opinion I deeply respect James spoke glowingly of "The General" as some have come to call him. His military credentials were something to behold, as I was told, and held the respect and admiration of foreign leaders all over the world. Or so my American peers said. He was even "anti-war" as even the "liberal biased media" stated, which he commanded with "impressive media relationships skills."

Still, their was just something about him that I just couldn't put my finger on.

Then FAIR put their finger on it, by digging into the CNN archives to see what "military expert Clark" said up to and during the happenings of the Iraq war. And his comments vary quickly shot down his anti-war banner. And the back peddling started. Being "anti-war" quickly became being "critical of the war". But even this criticism was never dished out without first heaping the obligatory praise and admiration for Bush and his military command. And then would always be followed by a profound statement of his loyalty and how ready he was to go the distance, mistakes and all.

And what was the Clark supporter's response? Wrath, just indigent, unrestrained flaming. How dare some of us try to smear a Democrat. Not just that, but the only Democrat who can beat Bush. We were doing "Karl Rove's work for him!" Well, such charges might hold more credibility if they didn't equate FAIR as being a secret undercover CIA misinformation core. After all, look at Rush Limbaugh attacking Clark.

But the notion that Clark was some how being vilified by the media was smashed the day he announced. Instantly, he was anointed "presumed front runner" by the media, and started turning leads in the polls. The same polls that once showed Bush as being a popular president I might add. Even as an anti-war candidate, he got lots of air time in the network news. Programs that would barely even mention either Dean or Dennis K, despite their anti-war positions.

His anti-war credentials quickly came to an end. Even him being critical of the war was exposed when he said he would have voted for the Iraq resolution, even with the benefit of hindsight. The vary next day, he changed his mind and suddenly, he would have voted against it. But the damage was already done. His true opinion had been reviled, and his sudden "change of heart" showed he had absolutely no convictions about even his own opinions.

And this proved to be only the beginning. Over the past two weeks, a virtual army of skeletons has started pouring out of Clark's closet like some kind of D-Day invasion.

Red Flag here! Clark was "let go" of his position as Allied Command in Kosivo by Clinton when he tried to over step his authority, and almost attacked a Rush contingent planing on moving into an air field to support their authorized involvement in the reign.

Red Flag here! He was invited too, and accepted an opportunity to speak at a Republican dinner, where Clark spoke glowingly of the current Bush administration. Even said that he looked foreword to working with them in the future.

Red Flag here! He did fund raising for a Republican candidate.

Red Flag here! He tried to step into Chenny's shoes to run as Bush's vice president for the Republican ticket.

Red Flag here! Clark is a board member to an air-line company that sold personnel information about their passengers to the US military, in order to help them build their "total information awareness" system. A program called CAPSII.

Red Flag here! Clark is also a board member to the National Endowment for Democracy. A right wing organization that bankrolled the destabilization in Venezuela.

These red flags on not signs that some one is a "republican light" but that of some one who is a full blown, 100%, mama raised, neo-con. But this doesn't show from his past exploits. Shortly after he announced his running for president, he was asked about the Iraq War resolution. And he said he would have voted for it if he would have been in congress at the time. And then a day later, he said he didn't. Huh?

And then we have something that is just bizarre. From Clark's "100 year vision" plan he says, and I quote. "We may also have to assist market-driven adjustments in urban and rural populations, as we did in the 19th Century with the Homestead Act." What? The homestead act? What is he thinking? No, seriously, I want to know what he is thinking? We have Enron's falling down around our ears and he is thinking about moving? His vision of the 21st century involves something from the 19th? What is he planning on doing? Turning over park land to logging companies? Encouraging the building of theme parks on Super Fund Sights? (Don't laugh. They tried to build one on top of an abandoned ammo dump outside Lawrence, Kansas.) Perhaps we will be encouraged to settle Afghanistan and Iraq? Will the native their, come to the same fate as the natives of America under a Clark administration? Don't laugh at that either. Remember a little thing called PNAC? It talks about "remaking the middle east in our image." You don't think PNACers think that image includes colored people, do you?

Am I loony? Perhaps I am. But the question remains, just what douse he mean by mentioning the Home Stead Act. In my researching this post, I can find no expansion on this idea, no explanation of why Clark felt it necessary to mention the Home Stead Act.

In Clarks Defense?
These particular skeletons are rather frightening. Just one is needed to scare away many of his would be supporters. But what has truly been raising the eye-brows on the DU isn't the bad news about Clark, as much as it is the quality, and quantity of Clark Defenders

To my knowledge, not one of the stories above has been successfully refuted. Despite consistently repeating the claims that they have. There have been very few attempts to even address these claims. For one thing, a lot of this stuff can not be refuted, because they are confirmed facts, even conceded by Clark himself. Clark's past community is a mater of public record, and Clark doses sit on the board of some ridiculously right wing organizations.

So how do Clark supporters respond? By defending the indefensible. CAPTSII for example, suddenly morphs from evil-big-brother, to a positive initiative on the war on terror. Clark's past dealings with the Republican GOP are now held up as examples of his by-partisan nature and his personal integrity. The comments Clark made about Bush and other PNACers becomes "damnation through fait praise" as one DUre puts it.

But most of the time, they respond through Ad hominem attacks and arguments. One approach is attacking Dean, claming that Dean is far worse, or trying to hang Dean with the same rope. by charging the author as "working for Karl Rove," or of working for the Dean campaign. I have even seen come threatened libel law suites against DUers who discover new dirt. The flaming has gotten so bad as to force the moderators to bring out new rules to try and restore some kind of functional civility. But the flame wars will continue, so long as Clark remains candidate.

The Straw man back-up.
Ah, but help is on the way for our beleaguered Clark supporters. For one example of Clark-dirt has been addressed, and done so quite well. A fact that Clark supporters now beat the rest of us over the head with as an example of our intentions to "get Clark."

It's just too bad that the DU didn't come up with it. This particular example was spun out by Rush Limbaugh. It seems that Clark has ties to the Wako disaster/massacre. The tie? Apparently he was in the requisition officer that signed off on the use of the flammable-tear gas. So Rush claims that Clark now some how ordered the death of the Branch Dividians. But so far, I have seen no subsistence to support this aligation.

The only folks I see this bring this up, ironically, are the Clark supporters. But none of the Clark critics on the DU defend or press the allegation, because it HAS been refuted. Clarks position at the time was not involved in the command structure of the Wako incident. He wasn't even a part of the operation. He had zero authority. And thus, zero liability.

But this is a common conservative debating strategy, commonly used by creationists. Prove one allegation wrong, and the rest automatically become wrong.

When such dishonest debating tactics are used, they intend to enforce, not dismiss the allegations.

A mater of Character.
Both Clark's past, the quality of those who defend him, and the qualities of people, whom Clark would endorse and work with, are all reflections of his Character. Even more so in the absence of a voting record. But the supporters claim that "Clark has no political background" from which to judge the quality of his political positions has already been proven false. But even if this was true, upon what to the Clark supporters base their support on Clark? What ever his current rhetoric, his past demands that we be skeptical.

Clark: The Carpet Baggier of retail politics.
And old Indian saying, "He speaks much, but says little." Even as the Clark supporters are quick to dismiss the meanings of his own words when it comes to his many past praises for the current administration. They practically swoon over every thing else he has said. Here is an example of "Clark's positions on the issues."

And before I say another word, I want to make one thing clear. I'm pro-choice, I'm pro-affirmative action, I'm pro- environment, pro-education, pro-healthcare and pro-labor. If that ain't a Democrat, then I must be at the wrong meeting. Clark, from a recent speech.
Found here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=470739&mesg_id=470739&listing_type=


The Clark supporters, and I suspect Clark himself, are laboring under the impression that being a Democrat only involves passing a check list. I'm pro-choice, check; I am pro-affirmative action, check. The entire speech can be summed up as thus. "I am pro A, and I am pro B, and I am pro C....." Thus far, every thing I have read from him, is little more than a summery of platitudes and politically expedient speech, with the creativity of a market driven poll. Clark's campaign is starting to sound like a broken record. A records that isn't even his.

The Clear and Present Danger, that is Clark.
"But," the Clark supporters will respond, "Clark is the only one who can defeat Bush." They like to point to such convincing assists as the fact that he is a military General, err, retired any way. That he announced his campaign in Florida. That he is a man of integrity that can really mop the floor with Bush in the debates. And last but not least, Clark will win the south! (I pause to permit you to regain your composure.)

Of course, there is always the inverse argument. If you don't support Clark, than you are in fact supporting Bush, because of all the other candidates, such as Dean and Kerry, wouldn't stand a chance in the General election. It's actually a rehash of the old liberal vs centrist debate that in and of itself is the center of much heated discussion on the DU.

Clark's ties from to the DLC, and his position of as a centrist is not in doubt. But what IS in doubt is weather a centrist can still win? Clinton did well on the platform, but the centrists have been losing serious ground ever sense the aftermath of the 2000 Elections in Florida. The DLC tells us that they are in this to win elections, but how convicting is that when they tell us to "just get over it" when the Republicans steal the election.

Clark was actively selected because of his centrist credentials. Much in the same way as Leabermen was chosen as Gore's running mate. The problem is that the Democrats are lusting after the Republican party base, rather than trying to build their own. In fact, we now see the DLC sacrificing their base in pursuit of the "Ragan Democrats, now renamed the "NASCAR Dad." Huh? The problem is that the American public is becoming increasingly polarized, split along the right, increasingly loyal to the Republican party, and the liberals and progressives, still waiting for a second party to show itself.

Clark's chances of victory in the general election are not as good as we might be led to believe. Just the demographics of how the new districts have been drawn for example, give the Republicans a growing electoral advantage. Plus, we have Biebold a growing influence in the vote counting, which Clark has yet to register in his campaign.

But the danger as I see it, isn't the possibility of Clark losing in the general election. The danger is what he would do if he should win. Or more accurately, what he will NOT do. He will NOT clean house. Clinton did win, he won by defeating H. W. Bush. And yet here we are, as if Clinton never existed. At best, Clark will just sit on his thumbs and let the PNACers walk away, keeping their pensions, keeping the billions of tax dollars that they have looted, and remain free from prosecution or investigations of corruption and wrong doing. They will lick the political wounds, and return to the ranks of the GOP, the corporate board rooms, and AM radio stations. There, they will bide there time, until another GOP shill is elected, and they will once again return to the white house.

Clark will not challenge the Globalist Neo-con's, the true power in the world. Why should he, he is a PART of the Globalizations ruling class. He is ether on the board, or works as a high level adviser for 11 corporations. And while good times may return to America, and I stress, may, you can be assured that things will continue to deteriorate around the world as the poor nations under Americas blanket of protection continue to become poorer still, or continue to suffer the rule of US back dictators.

We sill also not see Clark make any changes to the DLC's power structure. Terry McKaffy can rest assured, knowing that Clark will protect his position of power. After all, McAuliffe had a hand in selecting Clark in the first place. If you think the Clark rhetoric is bad now, just waste as the Democrats continue, or even accelerate their purge of liberals and progressives from the party.

Clark will be more than prepared to deal with, and compromise with the GOP. Giving them more than equal time, even as the business of the people are only given lip service or new panels, designed to investigate the issues into infinity.

We know this, because this is the true party platform of the DLC centrist democrats. Here is the problem. The vaunted Democratic party has been compromised. Compromised by political expedient deal making, as well as by corporations, the Democrats, or at least the part of it run by the DLC, have the same masters as the Republicans. The same agenda, the same goals, the same world view. While certain Democrats rail against this claim, the fact is undeniable that the Democratic party is just as concerned over the "crises of Democracy" as the neo-con Republicans, as mentioned in the "Grand Chessboard."

The fact that Clark can beat Bush isn't the issue. The question is who is Clark loyal to? Its time that we refuse to be so easily distracted by the shiny objects on Clark's chest, and start reading between the lines.
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 02:09 PM
Response to Original message
1. Lengthy, but rest assured I will NOT vote for Clark under any circumstance
May as well vote for Bush directly. x(

Clark is a trojan horse.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #1
14. There Is A Seriously Unbalanced Current Flowing Here At DU
Edited on Sun Oct-19-03 02:22 PM by cryingshame
There Is A Seriously Unbalanced Current Flowing Here on DU:

I have 2 brothers who are paranoid schizophrenics, had a boyfriend who went over the edge with "freemasons run the country" stuff and have known people who studied gemetria and weren't grounded enough to deal with spending heavy duty time w/ abstract thought.

Some posts here on DU concerning Clark seem to display an alarming tendency to connect countless dots into a web of conspiracy that eventually solidifies into a "Boogieman".... such as "Clark is a PNAC Trojan Horse". I've even heard "Clark is the AntiChrist".

These thought forms are most likely generated from people who either have great difficulty with authority figures or suffer from feelings of powerlessness. There may also be a motive of destroying a Democratic Candidate who threatens one's own preferred candidate.

I have worked for extrememly rich and connected people and I've also socialized with them. They have their own social and professional networks, for sure. Just because one may FEEL unable to be a part of such circles is mainly an illusion... as is the notion that ANY of us are actually unconnected to one another.

We all have networks and associates... that doesn't mean that we're merely the sum total of all the people that we come in contact.

The Goal should be to bring Light into the Dark places.

I have no doubt in my mind that Wesley Clark is such a person... one who can light flames in the hearts of those who pass his way.

There is a Glyph that depicts what I've seen from some DU'ers in regards to Conspiracy. It speaks to Issues of of Authority and Power. It represents the Esoteric Principle of Ignorance.

Look closely and you will see in the following Glyph, that the the atmosphere is Dark- the torches cast no Light.

This is similar to the thread started here. There is alot of INFORMATION but very little discrimination in using it.

Now look at the two people chained to the throne...

The Secrets of this glyph are these- the chains can be easily removed (they fit loosely around their necks) and the Dark Figure is a product of your imagination. He is acutally the Archangel Uriel- as seen by the Ignorant.




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gully Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #14
49. My mother is a paranoid schizophrenic, so I understand your point
Edited on Sun Oct-19-03 02:56 PM by gully
however, the Clark concerns warrant concern, regardless...

The record doesn't show Clark is the devil, but it shows he's a Republican. And, that's scary enough for this DU'er.

*I'm aware of his recent conversion to the Democratic Party* But, I have a right to be leary.

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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #14
267. I think you're being unfair
I don't think the original post comes anything close to tinfoil land. I think those are pretty fair and reasonable concerns. Maybe they don't end up meaing Clark is the wrong man for the job, or maybe they do. A lot of us are still trying to figure that out. But what I think is more frightening than your claims of paranoia and conspiracy whoring is a totally uncritical and unquestioning attitude to any guy who looks good on the surface, just because we're so desparate to beat bush.
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WhoCountsTheVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #1
19. excellent piece of propaganda
Edited on Sun Oct-19-03 02:25 PM by WhoCountsTheVotes
especially the "RED FLAG HERE" - that's a good one.

You're pretty much right about Clark being an establishment globalist, but of course, so is Kerry and Dean, so it's not really saying much now is it? If Dean or Kerry wins, I'm sure they will choose Clark as VP or other administration position.

Let's not fool ourselves about the Democratic party - we've always been globalists, like Clinton, the father of NAFTA and GATT and the president who originially tried to invade Iraq for PNAC (but was too caught up in his personal scandals to be successful), and unfortunately that's not going to change anytime soon, unless we elect Kucinich.
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StClone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 02:12 PM
Response to Original message
2. No doubt about it
I 'd rather have Bush than that shadows and skeletons Clark Guy. Who made him presidential material.
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MoonRiver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #2
182. Did you actually say, you'd rather have Bush than Clark?
Just checking cause if so, man, you are off the deeeeeep end, big time.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 02:12 PM
Response to Original message
3. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #3
31. And California's Attorney General, a democrat, voted for Arnold
At least Attorney General Bill Lockyer's vote for Arnold was the first time in his life that he voted for a Republican. How many times did Wesley Clark vote for Republicans?

"It was the first time I ever voted for a Republican in my life," Lockyer said during a speech at the Institute for Governmental Studies at the University of California, Berkeley. "What Arnold Schwarzenegger represented for me was hope, optimism and change, and I want that."

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2003/10/18/national2236EDT0678.DTL
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eileen_d Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #31
35. Yahoo! That was a giant leap off topic
Edited on Sun Oct-19-03 02:45 PM by eileen_d
Clark is running for president as a Democrat. Whether he is a trojan horse or not is disputable, but any arguments in favor of that are based on conjecture (and frequently, lame-ass googling).

If you want to give a shit about someone's voting record in the 1980s, that's also your prerogative, but I don't. And if you want to defend someone voting for Arnold, why feel free!
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #35
152. Kindly tell me when between March 2003 and now did Clark become a Dem?
I am missing the metamorphosis that happened sometime between the March 2003 Salon interview where he was heaping roses on Buch Inc saying he'd love to work with his good friends again and now. If you'd like the exact quote, I'd be happy to repost it again- as an organized Dem, I book-mark all the references and facts ;)

Unless of course you don't want to re-read it because you think it's ok to have been heaping praise on Bush after he had already passed those obscene tax cuts, pulverized Afghanistan, transferred the wealth of California to Texas, and caused the Stock Market to crash.

99.5% of DUers hated Bush in 2003, 2002, 2001, 2000. Before then, we hated Bush Sr, Reagan and Nixon.

If you can forgive, that's either out of kindness, naivete, or full agreement- something the rest of us do not have.

Also, please don't pretend Indiana Green is defending someone for voting for Arnold. It's clear she isn't. The only person defending people who vote for Republicans is you. Like most DUers, I get very... upset when I see new-comers long-time attacking DUers in good standing.
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #3
47. But the question is
Will the scary story end w/Halloween?

Answer?

Not as long as the DLC (read: his campaign staff) pushed Trojan Horse still claiming he is very, very, truly a Democrat :eyes: (not mama raised <----- love that term!), does not denounce his repug lovin history, his Big Brother lobbying (for profit), I am not a war criminal (:hi: Tricky "I am not a crook" Dick), I don't know why I got fired :shrug: , STILL has no written stance on major issues affecting all USians, General remains in the race.


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dobak Donating Member (808 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 02:13 PM
Response to Original message
4. Jesus, what a waste of time
A bunch of rehashed, previous attacks that have not stuck


Red Flag here! Clark was "let go" of his position as Allied Command in Kosivo by Clinton when he tried to over step his authority, and almost attacked a Rush contingent planing on moving into an air field to support their authorized involvement in the reign. -- He was not let go just because of this.

Red Flag here! He was invited too, and accepted an opportunity to speak at a Republican dinner, where Clark spoke glowingly of the current Bush administration. Even said that he looked foreword to working with them in the future.So what? To be an effective politician, you need to be able to work with your opponents. Paul Wellstone was one of the best at working with the other side. It sounds like you want him to bash Republicans 24/7.

Red Flag here! He did fund raising for a Republican candidate. AHHHHH! Please NO!!! Big F'n deal

Red Flag here! He tried to step into Chenny's shoes to run as Bush's vice president for the Republican ticket. Say what? Got some proof?

Red Flag here! Clark is a board member to an air-line company that sold personnel information about their passengers to the US military, in order to help them build their "total information awareness" system. A program called CAPSII. He was a vocal insider who pushed for restrictions on invading privacy

Red Flag here! Clark is also a board member to the National Endowment for Democracy. A right wing organization that bankrolled the destabilization in Venezuela. He was appointed. National Endowment fot Democracy also has done alot of very good things in the past. Bob Graham was also a memeber of NED
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dobak Donating Member (808 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. also....
CAPSII has little or nothing to do with "Total Information Awareness"
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dobak Donating Member (808 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. also.. also..
National Endowment for Democracy is not a organization. It is a federally funded organization.

Depending on the current president, it's missions and objectives can and do change. Under Bush II, I am not suprised that it was used to funnel money against Venezuela.
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dfong63 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #4
101. it is a big deal
He did fund raising for a Republican candidate. AHHHHH! Please NO!!! Big F'n deal

funny how no matter how hard Clark supporters try, there is no adequate defense to this point. it's either sarcasm, insults, or lame excuses.

it is a big deal. it's like if your fiancee told you she stopped seeing her old flame 10 years ago, but then you find out she went out to lunch with him only last year, and they had a "friendly kiss".

it's like if your business partner was an alcoholic who swore off booze a decade ago, but then you find out he's been taking an occasional little nightcap.

it's like Clark was a spy defected, now he wants to run things on our side. only we find out he had some clandestine contacts with his former colleagues... what's that all about?

Clark's loyalty and integrity are in doubt. laugh and scorn all you want, it won't make the questions disappear.


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eileen_d Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #101
110. It's a matter of opinion.
That Clark stated he voted for Republicans is a fact. Whether it's important to a particular person is a matter of opinion. It may be a "lame" opinion to you, but folks have every right to have that opinion.

There - no sarcasm, insults, or lame excuses.
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dobak Donating Member (808 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #101
113. not at all..
It happened before the world found out how bad they really are.

Do you see him still making speeches for the Repugs?

I see him as attempting to run against them and kick them out of office.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #101
155. Clark was a *paid speaker*
If he had spoken to a PETA dinner, would that make him a vegan? :eyes:
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #155
168. He was paid for two speeches
@ 30K a pop, where he spoke of his campaign for the presidency. That is a FEC no no.

Has he given the money back?
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dobak Donating Member (808 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #168
194. yes he has returned the money for the speeches
Edited on Sun Oct-19-03 05:37 PM by dobak
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #194
219. My question was
HAS he given the money back?

http://www.channelcincinnati.com/politics/2542625/detail.html


"...Wesley Clark's campaign says he will return payments..."


http://www.boston.com/news/politics/president/clark/articles/2003/10/10/clark_says_hell_return_forgo_speech_fees

"Clark has decided to return fees he collected"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3178696.stm


"...Clark has said he will return payment for speeches..."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A1715-2003Oct9?language=printer


"Clark yesterday said he would return payments for several speeches on college campuses..."

According to your links, the answer to my questions is NO.
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kiahzero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #219
225. Believe it or not
The newspaper isn't going to chronicle the exact movements of each candidate, which is to say: There will probably never be a story written for the express purpose of stating that he made good on his promise and returned the money. If it's not news, it's not going to be printed.

I'm sorry the Washington Post, BBC, etc., aren't willing to indulge your tinfoil theories.
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #225
233. What tinfoil theories?
He was paid 30K a piece for two speeches, which were against FEC rules and he has not given the money back.

Nothing tinfoil about that. Simple fact.
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kiahzero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #233
237. Do you have evidence that he hasn't given the money back?
He's canceled his speeches (a verifiable fact), and claims that the money will / has been returned. Do you have anything to show that he hasn't returned the money?

Basically, you are taking the fact that the articles were all written at the time he decided to return the money, and spinning the quotes from the articles reflecting that intent into claims that he hasn't returned the money yet.

I call that tinfoil.
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #237
241. No spin. Just facts
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kiahzero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #241
245. So you admit you've got nothing then
That last reply was worthy of O'Rielly: claiming "No spin, just facts", then stating nothing of consequence (in fact, saying nothing). Some of us are impressed by slightly more academic arguments.

YHL. HAND.
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #245
249. There is no simplier way of saying it
He got paid for speeches he shouldn't have and has not given the money back.

Until you have proof that he has given the money back, he has not given the money back.
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kiahzero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #249
251. My point is that there won't be proof able to please you
Major newspapers aren't going to write a story for the sole purpose of confirming that Clark did, in fact, give the money back. The only way they'd write a story would be if someone discovered that he in fact had not given the money back yet.

Your claims are nearly unfalsifiable; therefore, there is no point in making them.
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #251
252. Of course there is a point
Mr."I'm a Rhodes Scholar" Clark broke FEC rules. Not very smart, eh?
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dobak Donating Member (808 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #252
253. call his campaign and ask if they returned it...
I believe that they did, you do not

Call and ask!
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kiahzero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #252
258. So now we get to the crux of the matter
Edited on Sun Oct-19-03 07:22 PM by kiahzero
Thanks for shedding the extra bullshit you had accumulated; your point is simply that Clark can't be that smart, because he broke this FEC rule.

I won't argue this point with you, because it's clear you're just trying to make an attack rather than carry on a debate.

Edit: Grammar.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #168
208. Yes, and furthermore...
... that wasn't even the speech to which my reply referred; my reply was about his Lincoln Day Dinner speech.
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #208
226. MY post referred
to the two speeches he was paid for.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #226
255. Then it shouldn't have been under mine
Because MY post was in reply to dfong's post.
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Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #101
190. "Clark's loyalty and integrity are in doubt."
Loyalty to whom, pray tell? To the Democratic Party? You know, there are people who aren't ideologically married to political parties. I don't know what Republican Clark voted before, but if he thought the Repub was the better individual, than I don't see how you can blame him for that. I myself am very ideological along party lines, but it seems foolish to condemn a potentially good candidate on that ground for lack of ideological purity.

"Are you now, or have you ever been, sympathetic to any aim that the Republican party has ever promoted?" Sound familiar? Sorry, I find his support of a woman's choice and of affirmative action vastly more compelling than a single vote for a Republican candidate. And I'm not even committed to him, or any other candidate yet. But I would have voted for John Anderson, the Republican who ran against Reagan back in 1980, if I could have.
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Code_Name_D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #4
116. And you make these out to be good things?
Sorry, I do not buy it. You can argue weather his is a Republican or a Democrat until you are blue in the face. The problem is, where are his loyltys? How loyal can he be, if he can switch sides so easly and effertlesly?

But even more disterbing are the folks who do not just whisle past the grave yard, but march past it while tooting Clark's horn.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #4
145. Would you mind providing reputable links for your rebuttals
Pre 2003 reputably sourced links unaffiliated with the Clark campaign would be much appreciated.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 02:16 PM
Response to Original message
6. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
dobak Donating Member (808 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. why stop there...
All those lies can be dismissed with no more than 5 minutes work on each one
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WillyBrandt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Then get cracking. . .
. . . I've got laundry to do :)
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dobak Donating Member (808 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. ahh hell
I knew I should've kept quiet..

I have too much stuff to do also, but I'll do it.


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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #11
159. Good. Spend the 6 x 5 minutes required to do so in an organized manner
It would be greatly appreciated.

Organized and concise. It would be greatly appreciated.

Seeing that all of what Code Named D wrote is "lies", it should be the work of an instant to come up with hundreds of reputably sourced, non-Clark Campaign-affiliated links dated from the time of the incidents. A few will suffice and then we can compare notes.
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seamarq Donating Member (159 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #159
198. Why don't you spend the time looking in the DU archives.
These issues have been addressed repeatedly. If you choose not to accept it fine, but don't imply that these lies have not been refuted. Mayber you should do a little research of your own.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #198
256. Haha. There isn't squat in the archives
Edited on Sun Oct-19-03 07:21 PM by Tinoire
I'm on these boards day in and day out and I have YET to see a decent rebuttal. These issues have been addressed repeatedly by critics but they have never been refuted satisfactorily.

We keep hearing the refutals exist but no one can ever produce any. Every once in a blue moon, an intelligent Clark supporter will post something thoughtful and helpful but that's so rare.

Unlike the Dean, Kucinich, Kerry people, you can never produce any links or any proof. Why is that? One would think you would have these arguments book-marked if you expect people to sign on to Clark. If he were my candidate, I certainly would.

This is too bad, Clark is in serious trouble if this is the best you can do on a discussion board. He's your candidate, help him out.

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jayfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #6
22. Sounds Like The Real Trojan Horse Here Was...
William Cohen. All in the name of bi-partisanship...

Jay
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WillyBrandt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. No kidding.
If they wanted a GOP cabinet member, they should have picked a less important post than SecDef
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Donna Zen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #22
100. At the Pentagon
Cohen was soooooo partisan that he was called Senator Cohen behind his back.

It is really difficult to see the sense in refuting all of the posted nonsense, because it has not only been posted and debunked many times before, it also has been stretched. The part about Clark working for the Air Lines (jet blue) that sold info. Clark of course never---get this straight----never worked for Jet Blue. Repeat...Clark NEVER worked for JET BLUE. He did sit on the board of the the company that sold Jet Blue the software. Software that is used for data bases that in this case assembled information that is in the public domain. Public domain...got that? That means ANYBODY with google and too much time can find it. Now here's the sweet part; the data base company reported that Clark had no part in the transaction. What part of "no part" does the poster have problems with? Well, the last time he posted this, he or one of the other anti-Clark squad decided, all by themselves with no need of any outside input, that the guy was lying. See how simple this all is?

So once or twice a week, anyone at all with a keyboard can post any anti-Clark crap that foments in their head. Two things will happen. First, posters looking for a reason carry on about Clark and neo-con fanticies flock to the thread. Two, some people, myself included, who hate lying worse than just about anything, feel compelled to fuck around and straighten out the story--once again.

Of course, this will solve nothing except that one more brick has been placed in the wall. Sooner or later either the anti-Clarks will get tired of dreaming drivel (something I rather doubt for fuzzy reasons) or people will like me will just let the lies roll by. But today is not that day.
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Girlfriday Donating Member (570 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #6
27. Thanks Willy,
That was exactly the post I was looking for, you beat me to it.

Frankly, I'm sick to death of candidate bashing.
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cprise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 02:17 PM
Response to Original message
7. But he likes us gay people, so none of that is true
</sarcasm>

I believe the two sides have the same economic goals, and that's enough for me to not to vote for Clark.

Hey, maybe they can get him to hold up a sign saying "DEMOCRAT WOMEN FOR CLARK". That's would make everything O.K.

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Code_Name_D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #7
127. This is part of the problem, appealing to a fractured nation.
African Americans for Clark.
Democratic Women for Clark.
Hispanics for Clark.
Signal Moms for Clark.
Extra, extra, extra.

It wasn't on Clarks sight, but on another related pro-Clark sight where I saw some hundred links to that effect. But this is what retail politics happens to be all about. Isolate your demographic, and tailor your message to that demographic. It is leadership like this that keeps America so badly fractured, and in turn week and ineffective. But this isn't Clark as much as it is part of the CLC's handbook. Regardless, the Clark campaign is not the flag ship of such devises politics.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 02:18 PM
Response to Original message
9. Oh, sweet Jesus on a pogo stick!
Edited on Sun Oct-19-03 02:20 PM by Padraig18
How many times must this be rehashed? Not one God damned thing in this whole screed is new; in fact, every item in it has been addressed time and time again. :puke:

What a waste of bandwidth! :eyes:
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dobak Donating Member (808 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. thanks..
I stick up for Dean when he is unfairly attacked

I am glad to see you help us out!

:-)
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. YW
I try to be fair in my criticisms of other Democrats, believing criticism of other Democrats to be largly counter-productive in the long run. I'd much rather see positive statements about why I *should* vote for someone's candidtae than this kind of garbage...
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Rowdyboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #17
133. Thanks for pointing it out...
And I'll continue to do the same when I see smear tactics used against Dean.
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knight_of_the_star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #9
48. Thank you!
There is a world of difference between reasoned political debate and this kind of demogougery.
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seamarq Donating Member (159 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 02:19 PM
Response to Original message
10. Wow, really spooky stuff!
What a bunch of garbage. This stuff has been rehashed countless times here and most of these claims have been refuted. I too would like to see some proof about the Cheney connection. That's a new one on me. What a complete waste of time.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 02:22 PM
Response to Original message
16. PEOPLE SHOULD DO THEIR OWN HOMEWORK
Before saying "oooohh, spooky!" to threads like this.

Read Halberstam's book War in a Time of Peace, and watch halfthis crap go poof. Do your own homework.
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WillyBrandt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. PEOPLE DON'T CARE
Some folks at DU have established their own weird political demonology and get some sort of thrill at placing people into it. The less substantial the claims, the more fantastic and fun they can be. The less true the claim, the more interseting.

Fruits and nuts and liars.
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dobak Donating Member (808 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. or...
Read Clark's own book "Waging Modern War"

or..

Read "The Clinton Wars"

or..

Read "A Problem from Hell"

or..

etc....
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SeveneightyWhoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #21
39. Haha, "Kicking Repug Ass"..
I LOVE your sig pic!
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eileen_d Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #16
24. i was being sarcastic
But truly, it sounds like it should be read aloud by a campfire on a cold October's eve...
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knight_of_the_star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #16
44. Yeah
I took the time to pick this apart and show each lie bit by bit. Arguments without fact are nothing more than a rude wind blowing out of someone's ass.
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dfong63 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #16
86. Will, this isn't your classroom
... and no one elected you to be the head censor/bully here.

the person who started this thread expressed a legitimate opinion. if you think it wasn't adequately researched, then contribute some facts instead of just hurling insults.
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JasonBerry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #86
200. I agree
There is a sort of "celebrity worship" that goes on for anyone who has a published book - no matter how small the press. It's ridiculous. He is just like any other poster - wrong as often as he is right.
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Malikshah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #16
120. William--if people DID their homework, we wouldn't have Bush...
Looks as if folks haven't learned anything from *that* little debacle.

We all fight on though.

How dare you, though, suggest...reading...a book? What's that? Is it downloadable? Does it require shareware?
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seamarq Donating Member (159 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #120
141. I hope this post made you feel sufficiently superior.
Edited on Sun Oct-19-03 04:28 PM by seamarq
It's one thing to disagree with someone. It's quite another to assume they don't read because of their views.

<edit for typo>
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #141
146. ...and it's another thing again
to know for a fact that certain people on DU hold views because the only homework they have done has been on highly partisan websites, and not within the pages of several good books written by highly honored historians.
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Malikshah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #141
254. Actually, no--but
Your post did. :evilgrin:
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knight_of_the_star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #120
189. LOL
I think that you can buy them from places called book stores. It might require some effort to get to one though ;).
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Malikshah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #189
257. And as I tell my students...
When researching a paper--there's the great big building on campus with leafy things in it-- they're books--you can touch them and everything.

(I exagerrate of course--I'd never talk to students like that-- I may speak about them like that..but not to them)

As for libraries--they invariably opt for the internet sources...I had one actually give me a tourist site as a primary resource for ancient egypt...oh, the humanity.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #16
170. You're saddening me Will
This is still a discussion board. If you think half this crap went poof, refute it in an acceptable way.

There were people on this board 2 years ago telling us that the Bin-Laden/Bush/Carlyle links were crap that would go poof too and that the DLC was the greatest thing since sliced bread.

People have every right to be wary of Clark who was praising Bush and the PNAC crowd as late as March 2003 and who still sits on the boards of some very shadowy organizations and foundations.

I do not believe in lightly dismissing Clarks lobbyist activities for Acxiom because that's the same company that populated Tom Ridge's Homeland Security databases- thanks to that lobbying. Nor will I easily dismiss his membership to the Markle Foundation.

I prefer my Dems to have more progressive associations and a more progressive history I can check. When you open the closet doors and all these bones start popping out, we should be passig them under a microscope.

This is the most important election of my life-time and there's ONE amazing candidate out there who can change this country and whip it around. Trojan Horses, stealth Republicans and New Democrats shall pass past the Primaries over my dead progressive body .

These things need to be either intelligently refuted (and DU is fair- once intelligently refuted they won't keep coming up like this) or discussed on a Republican/New Dem board where people will think it's perfectly ok.

If Wesley Clark deserves the Democratic nomination and a platform at DU, then let him undergo the scrutiny like everyone else has.

Code Named D has been doing his homework. It is up to DUers to take his information and examine it- like we've always done.
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Skwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 02:23 PM
Response to Original message
18. Who is Clark loyal to?
Edited on Sun Oct-19-03 02:26 PM by Skwmom
The U.S. Constitution. He's fought many years to defend it and is disturbed at the direction our country is taking. I recommend that you listen to the man with an open mind and do some research that is not so one-sided (which from the tone of this post is probably impossible).



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bigendian Donating Member (956 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 02:29 PM
Response to Original message
25. About "retiring early". Check this out.
-snip-

"By law he had to take another job within 60 days or end his career - so Wesley Clark stepped down early to make way for him."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/733315.stm

Seems like WC has a kindly nature.
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dobak Donating Member (808 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. wow
nice find

leave it to the BBC to get the real news
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #25
138. "Kindly nature"? - what spin! Clark was FIRED
Edited on Sun Oct-19-03 05:19 PM by Tinoire
You may not like or agree with the reasons but please be frank here! Clark was fired by Cohen and Shelton. Shelton already hinted at why, you can expect more news to be hitting the media soon but you won't be able to dismiss it as Rove spin because there was too published when the incident occurred. Your weak spin is worse than no defense!

=============================================

General Wesley Clark, the supreme commander of Nato who repeatedly clashed with Washington during the war against Yugoslavia, has been told to leave his post early.
He will make way for a US air force general considered more amenable by the Clinton administration.
------------------------
Gen Clark, a four-star officer in the US army, ruffled Pentagon feathers with vociferous complaints that he was hamstrung in the battle for Kosovo by the need to win consensus among the Nato allies and by US reluctance to approve combat missions which might mean American casualties.

In particular Washington repeatedly blocked his requests to use Apache helicopter gunships against Serb forces and paramilitary groups carrying out ethnic cleansing, preferring instead to stick to a policy of high-altitude bombing.

Despite Pentagon insistence yesterday that Gen Clark's early retirement had nothing to do with his performance in the war, the manner in which he was informed about it was widely interpreted in Washington and Europe as a snub.

The chairman of the US joint chiefs of staff, General Henry Shelton, called him as he attended a formal dinner on Tuesday night and told him the news - an hour before it was leaked to the Washington Post.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Kosovo/Story/0,2763,208090,00.html

----------------------------------
Journal of the Air Force Assocation September 2001 Vol. 84, No. 9

It was exactly this obsession with trying to put boots on the ground in the form of an invasion in Kosovo that likely cost Clark his job as SACEUR. Even in its rockiest periods, the US military Chiefs and White House officials offered steady support for the NATO air campaign. Clark, however, lobbied hard for a NATO decision to gear up for land war.

As it turned out, Clark was completely at odds with Washington and European leaders about the preferred direction of the war. His penalty was high. Just one month after the end of Allied Force, White House officials leaked the embarrassing news that Clark would retire earlier than planned and vacate the SACEUR post for another officer, USAF Gen. Joseph W. Ralston, who was then the vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

http://www.afa.org/magazine/sept2001/0901clark.asp
http://www.afa.org/magazine/sept2001/0901clark_print.html
------

DATE=7/28/1999
TYPE=CORRESPONDENT REPORT
TITLE=NATO COMMANDER REPLACED (L-UPDATE)
NUMBER=2-252243
BYLINE=JIM RANDLE
DATELINE=SEOUL
CONTENT=


INTRO: The United States is replacing the general who
led NATO forces in the Kosovo conflict. General
Wesley Clark will leave his post in April after a
series of disputes with Pentagon officials over the
conduct of the war. V-O-A's Jim Randle reports,
General Clark urged Washington to hit Yugoslavia
harder, sooner and to make serious plans for a ground
campaign.

TEXT: At a news conference in Tokyo, Defense Secretary
William Cohen said he is not punishing General Clark,
but plans to replace him with Air Force General Joe
Ralston anyway. ((And those of you who believe that nicety have never served a day in the Military!))

<snip>

In an interview in Tokyo, Pentagon spokesman Ken Bacon
portrayed the change as a normal rotation, but General
Clark will serve less than three years, while most
previous NATO commanders held the post for four.

<snip>
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/ops/docs99/990728-kosovo01.htm
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JasonBerry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #138
209. Good post
As always, you are here to set the record straight. Talk about revisionist history! Try as they might, it's hard to disregard press from 4 years ago versus today's campaign spin.
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DemExpat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #138
228. His being let go by Pentagon officials should make you ADMIRE
the man, Tinoire.....:D


I take this article as Wes being elbowed out by people who didn't like his style, jealousies, conflicting ideologies......not that he was fired for being incompetent.

You know.....politics........

DemEx

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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #228
259. Naw- the People I admire are the Liberal General like Kennedy
Edited on Sun Oct-19-03 07:58 PM by Tinoire
The people I admire are people like General Claudia Kennedy who was the DCSINT and for whom I worked directly (a known liberal btw who has since endorsed Kerry :evilgrin: going to have to give her hell over that!). None of us were ever let go- why should I admire Clark for being such a pain in the ass and a danger to Europe that they had to bring him back 3 months early? You don't get relieved and brought back three months early because of a bad hair-cut.

Did you know that Chirac was calling Clinton in the middle of the night over Clark? As did the British even before the Pristina incident? Because of the way Clark was waging the war and the civilians he was endangering, the British and the French governments demanded and received veto power over the targets because they were shocked to hear of power grids, power lines to hospitals and downtown buildings being bombed. I would have loved to overhear what they had to say when the Chinese Embassy was "accidentally" bombed (even though the pilots involved say it was no accident but no DUer ever believed that story anyway).

Why would I admire that? None of the Liberal Officers I knew there were ever let go and they were even more vocal than Clark about their party affiliation. No one cared and style, jealousies, conflicting ideologies had nothing to do with it as long as they did their job correctly.

style, jealousies, conflicting ideologies?? Boy do I feel sorry for Clark supporters because there are vaults full of information at the Pentagon about what happened over there- the dummy targets just like at the NTC, the exaggerated "kills", the stories that changed from one day to the next depending on who the audience was, the embarrassing gift exhanges with declared terrorists over the objections of the State Department. People haven't even heard the beginning of it.

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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #228
262. According to the British government, Clark almost caused WWIII
The Guardian is NOT a GOP mouthpiece. Here is what The Guardian reported back in 1999 about General Clark's hissy fit with the Russians. This article raises a lot of questions about Clark's temperament.

Robertson's plum job in a warring Nato

As Blair's man is installed, Richard Norton-Taylor details the way the alliance generals have been fighting

Tuesday August 3, 1999
The Guardian


No sooner are we told by Britain's top generals that the Russians played a crucial role in ending the west's war against Yugoslavia than we learn that if Nato's supreme commander, the American General Wesley Clark, had had his way, British paratroopers would have stormed Pristina airport threatening to unleash the most frightening crisis with Moscow since the end of the cold war.

"I'm not going to start the third world war for you," General Sir Mike Jackson, commander of the international K-For peacekeeping force, is reported to have told Gen Clark when he refused to accept an order to send assault troops to prevent Russian troops from taking over the airfield of Kosovo's provincial capital.

<snip>

The Russians had made a political point, not a military one. It was apparently too much for Clark. According to the US magazine, Newsweek, General Clark ordered an airborne assault on the airfield by British and French paratroopers. General Jackson refused. Clark then asked Admiral James Ellis, the American commander of Nato's southern command, to order helicopters to occupy the airport to prevent Russian Ilyushin troop carriers from sending in reinforcements. Ellis replied that the British General Jackson would oppose such a move. In the end the Ilyushins were stopped when Washington persuaded Hungary, a new Nato member, to refuse to allow the Russian aircraft to fly over its territory.

Jackson got full support from the British government for his refusal to carry out the American general's orders. When Clark appealed to Washington, he was allegedly given the brush-off. The American is said to have complained to Jackson about the British general's refusal to accept the order to take over Pristina airfield, and Jackson's subsequent appeal to his political masters when Clark visited Kosovo on June 24.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Kosovo/Story/0,2763,208123,00.html
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 02:30 PM
Response to Original message
26. A great post, Code_Name_D
"Mary, help!"

--Wesley Clark


Let's not forget what Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch had to say about NATO's bombing of the former Yugoslavia.
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seamarq Donating Member (159 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. Yeah, it's a really great post if you don't care about the truth.
n/t
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. Here is one truth that puts Clark supporters in denial mode..
"Collateral Damage" or Unlawful Killings?
Violations of the Laws of War by NATO during Operation Allied Force

From 24 March to 10 June 1999 the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) conducted an air campaign against the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (FRY), codenamed Operation Allied Force. NATO aircraft conducted over 38,000 combat sorties, including 10,484 strike sorties, against targets in the provinces of Kosovo and Vojvodina, Serbia proper and the Republic of Montenegro. Yugoslav media have stated that thousands of civilians were killed in NATO air raids. However, the civilian death tolls given in detailed FRY government accounts range from 400 to 600. NATO has not released official estimates of civilians or FRY combatants killed. No NATO forces were killed in hostile action during the air campaign.

Amnesty International believes that in the course of Operation Allied Force, civilian deaths could have been significantly reduced if NATO forces had fully adhered to the laws of war. These rules are designed to protect -- to the maximum extent possible -- civilian lives and objects. The rules include a prohibition on any direct attacks against civilians or civilian objects. The rules also include prohibitions on attacks which do not attempt to distinguish between military targets and civilians or civilian objects and attacks which, although aimed at a legitimate military target, have a disproportionate impact on civilians or civilian objects.(07 May 2000)

http://www.amnesty.org/ailib/intcam/kosovo/index.html

http://www.amnesty.org/ailib/intcam/kosovo/docs/nato_summ.pdf
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knight_of_the_star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #34
38. 400 to 600 dead?
That is not deliberate attacking of civilians. That is an oops. Excuse the phrase sounding callous, but that is simply what it is.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #38
43. I am not gonna talk about Clark or Kosovo
But just because you live doesnt mean you werent affected. I have a great friend who is a first generation Serbian, one of the smartest and nicest people I know, her family was here when it happened the war that is, other parts of her family were there and they were lucky and survived but she has visited since and has told me it is not a pretty sight. You dont have to die in war to suffer.
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Donna Zen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #43
130. 1998 Kosovo (pre-war)
When the truck pulled into the ward I climbed into the back. Before each corpse, wrapped in bloodstained blankets and rugs, was lifted out for washing and burial I checked to see if the body mutilated. I pulled back the cloth to uncover the faces. The gouged-out eyes, the shattered skulls, the gaping rows of broken teeth, and the sinewy strands of flyed flesh greeted me. When I could not see clearly in the fading light I flicked on my Maglite. I jotted each disfigurement in my notebook.

...The corpses were wound in white shrouds by a Muslim cleric in a red turban. ...It was not an uncommon event for me. I have seen many such dead. Several weeks later it would be worse. I would be in a warehouse with fifty-one bodies, including children, even infants, women, and the elderly from the town of Prekaz....by Christopher Hedges---aka truth teller


As a second generation Serbian, I tell you, Milosevic was a criminal thug, and while war is never good for anyone, this had to be stopped. For two years the Western world tried diplomacy, but Milosevic had said he would kill them all. Cohen and Shelton were nothing but fucking desk-cowboy cowards about the situation. When Albright set up Ramboullet, she pissed them off because a threat was on the table. Clark backed her up. Ethnic cleansing is not something we need in this world.
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DemExpat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #130
134. A Serbian friend of mine who works for the UN here also supports
Edited on Sun Oct-19-03 04:36 PM by DemEx_pat
the war and removal of Milosevic. 100%.

DemEx

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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #134
139. I know but my friend is no Milosevic sympathizer
Dont get her wrong, she hates the guy as much as you.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #134
144. Same here!
I go to school with some Serbian students, and without exception the wanted Milosevic ousted and view NATO & General Clark as liberators, *not* 'war criminals'.
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JasonBerry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #144
261. SERBIAN students????
Are you going to have me believe that SERBIAN nationals were praising NATO? That's a joke. NATO bombed the hell out of their capital city! They might not have liked Milosevic - but no Serb national was telling you they supported the NATO bombing campaign! Yes, the Albanian people in Kosovo look at NATO as liberators, but SERBS??? That's just complete BS and you know it.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #261
265. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #130
137. Well you think she likes Milosevic hell no
I think Milosevic was awful.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #38
45. Would it be callous if those had been 600 dead Americans?
Thank you for the blatant jingoist racism!
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knight_of_the_star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #45
79. I'm looking at it without any emotion
Edited on Sun Oct-19-03 03:12 PM by knight_of_the_star
400 to 600 dead was probably a handful at each raid that were at the wrong place at the wrong time. Now if the figure was in the thousands, like that of our recent invasion, then that would indicate deliberate targetting of civilians or use of very primitive bombs (ie dumb bombs). I am not dismissing the loss of 400 to 600 lives as nothing because they are not American, I am dismissing the allegation that it was deliberate targetting of innocents. That does not say that I do not agree with their deaths, in a perfect world we would not have wars at all, but in war there are always those who must suffer, no matter what the reason for war are, there are always innocent bystanders who suffer, no matter how accurate and sophisticated the weapons we employ are. I'm simply putting the 400 to 600 deaths into persepctive, I'm NOT saying that they do not matter. And If you have anything to say to that other than, "Thank you for the blatant jingoist racism!", then obviously you don't have anything of value to say in response.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #45
143. For 600 dead Americans we would only pulverize 1/5 of the world
Edited on Sun Oct-19-03 04:32 PM by Tinoire
for under 3000 we pulverize the entire Middle East and Afghanistan.

No other lives count. Did you not get the New Dem memo?
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knight_of_the_star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #143
196. And would another nation do the same
If they had the means to do so?
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #196
263. Are you justifying it? Because in that case Bin Laden has a case
As did Sadaam after Gulf War I
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dfong63 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #38
248. but if 400-600 civilian dead are just collateral damage,
... then that pretty much invalidates the NATO pretext for intervention in the first place.
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dobak Donating Member (808 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #34
52. Thats nothing...
compared to Iraq

I have no doubt that the civilian death tolls are 10,000+

I am no fan of war, but when it occurs, civilian WILL die.

400-600 civilian deaths sounds like they did their best to avoid them.
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knight_of_the_star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #52
88. Exactly my point
400-600 is a mistake. When you start getting into the thousands, then it ceases to be a mistake.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #26
33. Ummm
Edited on Sun Oct-19-03 02:46 PM by Padraig18
That must be why the IWCT in The Hague indicted him. Oops! Wait--- that was Milosevic they indicted! Never mind... /sarcasm off

It's flame-bait GARBAGE, and it was the fifteenth time it was raised here, weeks ago! Just because you can't let go of it doesn't make it any less flame-bait garbage than it has always been.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #33
40. Amnesty International: NATO forces did not adhere to the laws of war
Amnesty International believes that in the course of Operation Allied Force, civilian deaths could have been significantly reduced if NATO forces had fully adhered to the laws of war. These rules are designed to protect -- to the maximum extent possible -- civilian lives and objects. The rules include a prohibition on any direct attacks against civilians or civilian objects. The rules also include prohibitions on attacks which do not attempt to distinguish between military targets and civilians or civilian objects and attacks which, although aimed at a legitimate military target, have a disproportionate impact on civilians or civilian objects.

http://www.amnesty.org/ailib/intcam/kosovo/docs/nato_summ.pdf
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. Nice side-step
Edited on Sun Oct-19-03 02:49 PM by Padraig18
Where are the indictments from the IWCT? Trust me, they know about the NATO campaign just like AI does...
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #42
51. Americans are exempt by law from prosecution by the IWCT
That's what Bush wanted, and he has earned the eternal gratitude of war criminals such as Tommy Franks and Wesley Clark.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #51
54. Exempt doesn't mean unindictable
So again, why wasn't he indicted?
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #54
64. In case you have been living in another planet...
One cannot indict if one has no jurisdiction, and the International Criminal Court has no jurisdiction over American military, all thanks to all the patriotic Americans that are revulsed by the thought of having American war crimes, and criminals, publicly exposed for the murderous thugs they are.

International Criminal Court (ICC): Senate Investigates Agreement Between US, Nigeria

Vanguard (Lagos)
October 17, 2003
Posted to the web October 17, 2003

Sufuyan Ojeifo
Abuja


"Whereas the United States Government by threat to exercise its veto power against the renewal of the Bosnia peacekeeping mission in July 2002 succeeded in obtaining UN resolution 1422 that reduces the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court as it requests the International Criminal Court to suspend for a renewable 12-month period its investigations on potential war crimes, crimes against humanity and acts of genocide if committed by peacekeepers or UN authorized forces belonging to States that are not parties to Rome Statute;

"Whereas United States in order to further undermine the territorial jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court recently proposed Bilateral Non-Surrender Agreements to all states with which it maintains diplomatic relations in order to bar the surrender to the International Criminal Court of any United States national or any person under contract with the United States Government;

http://allafrica.com/stories/200310170805.html
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #64
69. Nice insult
Screw your flip attitude, too!
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #69
77. Haven't you been keeping with the news?
And the efforts of the Bush regime to get US civilian and military officials exempt from prosecution by the ICC?

I suspect that you knew this full well!
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #64
103. I live on the same planet you do
"...‘No Deliberate Targeting of Civilians’
Still, Amnesty’s hopes for a probe have already been all but dashed.
Last week, Carla Del Ponte, the chief prosecutor for the U.N. War Crimes Tribunal, told the Security Council there was no basis for opening an investigation into allegations of NATO violations.
Del Ponte said that although “mistakes were made by NATO,” she was “very satisfied that there was no deliberate targeting of civilians or unlawful military targets.”
NATO flew 38,000 combat missions in its two ½-month air campaign against Serbia last year. While NATO has never released figures on civilian deaths, the Yugoslav government says as many as 600 civilians were killed...."

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/kosovo000607.html

Hmmm, the prosecutor herself says 'no war crimes'. Gee, I guess that means AI is right, huh? /sarcasm off :eyes:
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #103
111. What? No response?
Edited on Sun Oct-19-03 03:47 PM by Padraig18
Still combing debates in the Nigerian Senate for a pithy, yet immaterial quote?:eyes:

On edit: Nigeria--- now there's a pillar of democracy if ever I saw one! I wonder how many women they plan to stone for adultery in the near future? :eyes:
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #111
156. How curious--- no response. n/t
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #156
188. Did you expect one?
... these types usually scurry away.

But I'm glad you got him, Padraig18!
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #188
193. It just frosts my balls!
Unless one were to use the term 'child molester' or 'rapist' or 'genocidal maniac', I can hardly think of a more VILE term to apply to a fellow human being than 'war criminal'. :puke::grr:
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JasonBerry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #193
213. When are you going to change your avatar?
All I ever see from you are posts praising Wesley Clark. Good cover with the Dean photo, but it's getting tooo obvious. Cry as you might how you support Dean, but you spend most of your time in Clark threads praising him, "as a Dean supporter." It really is getting old.
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kiahzero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #213
229. Can you read my mind too?
I forgot some details for a project I'm working on, and I was hoping you could fish them out.

Perhaps he doesn't have anything that he feels like contributing to the pro-Dean threads, but wants to demonstrate that not every Dean supporter enjoys the latest tinfoil fashion.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #213
242. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
JasonBerry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #242
260. Hummmm
Wonder where that deep-seated anger comes from? You can't deny that you spend most of your time praising Clark. Typical response from you though. That anger is always seething just below a razor thin surface. Got some issues you care to air here? I normally wouldn't be so obtuse, but for YOU to talk about personal attacks is the proverbial pot calling the kettle black. I noticed you didn't attempt to claim Dean support. Except, of course, for that ever present avatar that mocks your words. Sorry. The truth hurts.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #260
266. Crystal ball again? n/t
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #64
184. Not true...
People are indicted for crimes all the time and never stand trial because the court in question has no jurisdiction where the accused is.

International cases.

For example, there was a case a year or so ago where someone was indicted for murder here but the UK refused to extradite him if the punishment was death.
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dobak Donating Member (808 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #51
60. question...
Is everyone who ever participated in a war guilty of war crimes?

Sure sounds that way

---

War is an ugly mess.

I support any and all "laws" that try to protect civilians, but things are going to happen that were not planned to happen.

Mistakes in war are not grounds for "War Crimes"


Hitler, Stalin, Saddam, Milosevic, Pol Pot, Pinochet <---- These are war criminals


Franks and Clark are not
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #60
66. so, by your logic the invasion of Iraq was legal
and was not a war of aggression by the US. I disagree with such moral blindness!
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eileen_d Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #66
71. By your logic, black is white and night is day
Seriously. You are reading things into posts that simply ARE NOT THERE. Stop doing that.
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dobak Donating Member (808 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #66
83. hell no
I took part in 2 anti-war marches, sent letters to my legislators, sent letters to the editor, etc...

I hold Bush responsible for Iraq. Not Tommy Franks.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #83
95. Tommy Franks planned and led the war campaign
Edited on Sun Oct-19-03 03:24 PM by IndianaGreen
He is as guilty as Field Marshall Jodl.

On edit:

Jodl held high-ranking positions in the Reich starting in 1935, including Chief of Army Operations. Jodl was instrumental in planning the attack on Czechoslovakia as well as Norway, Greece and Yugoslavia. He wrote “The genius of the Fuehrer and his determination not to shun even a World War have again won the victory without the use of force. The hope remains that the incredulous, the weak, and the doubtful people have been converted and will remain that way”.

Jodl and his staff signed numerous documents detailing plans to annihilate people, including the plan to kill Soviet commissars. But the evidence does not show he was involved in the slave labor program.

His defense was that he was an obedient soldier, signing orders only as a command from Hitler. This was not a defense allowed under Article Eight of the Charter, however, and no other mitigation evidence could be offered.

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/nuremberg/NurembergIndictments.html#Jodl
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #95
106. The IWCT's prosecutor disagrees
"...‘No Deliberate Targeting of Civilians’
Still, Amnesty’s hopes for a probe have already been all but dashed.
Last week, Carla Del Ponte, the chief prosecutor for the U.N. War Crimes Tribunal, told the Security Council there was no basis for opening an investigation into allegations of NATO violations.
Del Ponte said that although “mistakes were made by NATO,” she was “very satisfied that there was no deliberate targeting of civilians or unlawful military targets.”
NATO flew 38,000 combat missions in its two ½-month air campaign against Serbia last year. While NATO has never released figures on civilian deaths, the Yugoslav government says as many as 600 civilians were killed...."

Facts are inconvenient things, especially to zealots...


http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/kosovo000607.html
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #106
158. Hmmm.... Surprise, surprise--- no response! n/t
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dobak Donating Member (808 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #95
107. I don't consider Hitler and Bush to be equals
Attacking Iraq was wrong, but it is in no way comparable to Nazi Germany invading all of Europe and killing millions of Jews/Gypsies/Homosexuals/etc...

Whatever reasons Bush has for invading Iraq, they are better than Hitler's desire to conquer the world and eradicate the undesirable races.

---

- Franks was the military commander of a war. Whether I like that war or not, does not make him a war criminal.

- Field Marshall Jodl was the Chief of Army Operations in a war that can only be called the beginning of an attempt at world genocide.

I think that there are significant differences between the two.




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dfong63 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #60
72. i'm sure lots of nazi sympathizers wondered the same thing
Is everyone who ever participated in a war guilty of war crimes?

not everyone is guilty, not everyone is innocent. it depends on what they did. if they took part in atrocities, ordered atrocities, or failed to use their authority to prevent them, then they were guilty. it is certain that atrocities were committed by the allied forces in Kosovo. (such as deliberate bombing of civilian infrastructure, and contamination of the land with radioactive weapons.) it is certain that general Clark was the supreme commander of those forces.

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eileen_d Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #72
87. So in conclusion... nothing.
All conjecture.
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knight_of_the_star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #72
89. Proof?
I would like to see some.
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dobak Donating Member (808 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #72
92. ok
If you could prove that Gen. Clark ordered the bombing of a house that contained civilians, for no, or very little reason.

Then I may begin to think he is guilty of something.

But, just because he was the NATO leader of a military mission in which civilians died does not equate him with being a "war criminal".

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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #92
172. No need to bother
Edited on Sun Oct-19-03 05:19 PM by Padraig18
I've posted the refutation about three times now, and they keep ignoring it because it's a massive 'Gotcha!' to their slander. They won't answer--- they'll just fly off onto another piece of flame bait.

Here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=557259&mesg_id=557600&page=

and here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=557259&mesg_id=557593&page=

And here's what I posted:

"...‘No Deliberate Targeting of Civilians’
Still, Amnesty’s hopes for a probe have already been all but dashed.
Last week, Carla Del Ponte, the chief prosecutor for the U.N. War Crimes Tribunal, told the Security Council there was no basis for opening an investigation into allegations of NATO violations.
Del Ponte said that although “mistakes were made by NATO,” she was “very satisfied that there was no deliberate targeting of civilians or unlawful military targets.”
NATO flew 38,000 combat missions in its two ½-month air campaign against Serbia last year. While NATO has never released figures on civilian deaths, the Yugoslav government says as many as 600 civilians were killed...."

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/kosovo000607.html
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Girlfriday Donating Member (570 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 02:35 PM
Response to Original message
28. Sometimes I wonder.....
...can ANYONE pass the litmus test?
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dobak Donating Member (808 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. nope
We are as bad as the Fundamentalist Right Wingers...

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gully Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #28
55. Honestly, not entirely.
:shrug:
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knight_of_the_star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
36. Some points to refute
1.) You incorrectly cited Clark's 100-year vision. He was using the Homestead Act of the 19th Century, which had considerable impact in its time, to draw a comparison for how he wants to lead America on to new greatness. In fact, you completely FORGOT about the first few sentences in his statement of his 100-year vision:

Looking ahead 100 years, the United States will be defined by our environment, both our physical environment and our legal, Constitutional environment. America needs to remain the most desirable country in the world, attracting talent and investment with the best physical and institutional environment in the world. But achieving our goals in these areas means we need to begin now.

That was directly from http://www.clark04.com if you doubt me on that.

2.) Your statement on centrists:

Clinton did well on the platform, but the centrists have been losing serious ground ever sense the aftermath of the 2000 Elections in Florida. The DLC tells us that they are in this to win elections, but how convicting is that when they tell us to "just get over it" when the Republicans steal the election.

Is innaccurate. There is a difference between Cliton Centrist positions and that of what was followed in 2000. The DLC didn't want anything to do with Clitnon because they thought that the scandals kicked up by the Right would plague any candidacy that used it. The idea that the DLC was following in 2000 and 2004 was not centrist, it was appeasement. They simply didn't fight, whereas Clinton did everything he possibly could to beat the Republicans in '92 and '96 without sinking into the gutter. And he did that by being centrist. By stating the DLC strategy of appeasement is centrist, and ergo does not work because the DLC seems to be having issues finding its cajones, is faulty logic of the first degree. McAullife is not DLC either, he's DNC and doing a piss-poor job of it. I don't see what the connection is between Clark and McAullife, as Clark didn't consider running until a draft movement started up.

Clark was actively selected because of his centrist credentials. Much in the same way as Leabermen was chosen as Gore's running mate. The problem is that the Democrats are lusting after the Republican party base, rather than trying to build their own.

This is also innacurate as Clark, as I have stated before and has been solidly PROVEN time and time again, was not SELECTED as you state. He was DRAFTED into running, not annoited by some higher power to run. Also, there is a VERY large difference between Lieberman, namely that Lieberman is the biggest DINO on the Senate, while Clark has not only stated but proven via his actions as base commander at Fort Hood that he IS a liberal individual at heart, unlike Lieberman who is so far right of the Party that he could easily be mistaken for a moderate Republican.

3.) Accusing Clark of being a NeoCon is an allegation that has no solid facts to back it up with. While you cite the incident with the Russian troop movement as the reason for his removal, he wasn't removed from his command until 2000, well after NATO's involvement in Kosovo in a military fashion was over. There is also the statement by the British commander (Forget the name at the moment) who said, "I'm not going to start World War III for you." That commander was VERY disliked, even hated to a degree by his own troops and had a reputation for melodrama and contrariness. Throughout his career Clark and the Pentagon came at loggerheads a lot because there were situations where he WANTED to intervene for humanitarian reasons, for example in the Rwandan genocide, but the Pentagon refused. He was, during his term of service, a VERY gung-ho officer who WANTED to do his job well and do the right thing. This is solidly backed up by fact and statements of his peers.

Clark will not challenge the Globalist Neo-con's, the true power in the world. Why should he, he is a PART of the Globalizations ruling class. He is ether on the board, or works as a high level adviser for 11 corporations.

This statement lacks hard facts to back it up with. You do not state WHO those 11 corporations are, and that by itself makes it an innefective one to use, as those corporations could be anywhere from Microsoft to PetCo. You also cannot prove either way his stance on a globalist economy either way, but he has a solid record as being a multi-lateralist, not a unilaterist individual like those the NeoCons favor.

4.) Another statement of yours:

If you don't support Clark, than you are in fact supporting Bush, because of all the other candidates, such as Dean and Kerry, wouldn't stand a chance in the General election.

If you would show me, with a LINK that such statements have been used to argue in favor of Clark, show them to me now, but I am dead certain that such arguments have not been used here to support Clark.

5.) Another piece of evidence you cite:

Clark is a board member to an air-line company that sold personnel information about their passengers to the US military, in order to help them build their "total information awareness" system. A program called CAPSII.

Prove it. Clark, for the last three years of his life as a civilian has worked as a CNN military commentator, who during the last year was VERY critical of Bush's war plan, which is something you gloss over. He was in favor of taking out Saddam for the same reason that he wanted to get involved in the Rwandan genocide: Saddam was a bloody-handed tyrant who, no matter how you slice it, had a record of human rights violations a mile wide. He was against the war because he felt it was being done for the wrong reasons and the approach to gathering allies and planning out the war was all wrong and doomed to failrue, which for the most part has been true. Also, he has worekd for a consulting company of his own making. He has not, as far as is known, worked on the board of a US airline company, so thus would not have been in a position to sell such information. And from when he graduated from Oxford until 2000, he was in the military and thus COULD NOT have been in a position to work as the board memeber of an airline company to sell such information.

5.) He tried to step into Chenny's shoes to run as Bush's vice president for the Republican ticket.

Where's the proof again? Your essay would be pretty convicing if you could prove some of the more damning allegations here, but Clark was in the military until the year 2000 and after leaving service joined a consulting firm. He did not make any reall attempt to act as a VP nominee, as there was also no mention of him seeking it. In fact, shortly after Bush was elected, Time did a SMALL piece on Clark basically saying, "Will he be the man to save the DEMOCRATIC Party?" I don't think they would be doing that if he was seeking a VP nom for the Republicans.

He was invited too, and accepted an opportunity to speak at a Republican dinner, where Clark spoke glowingly of the current Bush administration. Even said that he looked foreword to working with them in the future.

The time he spoke was shortly after the election, and at the time most people thought that, at the time, Bush had assembled a good solid cabinet to run the show and most people did NOT know about the NeoCOn or PNAC connections, and Clark, being in the military and thus non-partisan for that time, probably wasn't looking into that kind of thing as he was kind of busy up until the year 2000 being a high-ranking military officer. Also, his name doesn't appear anywhere on the PNAC website.

He did fund raising for a Republican candidate.

Who was the candidate? Maybe he fundraised for him because he was a friend. Maybe that particular Republican ISN'T a NeoCon. Did you ever think of that?

Clark is also a board member to the National Endowment for Democracy. A right wing organization that bankrolled the destabilization in Venezuela.

Again, you have no links or citings of articles to prove this.

I must give you this much credit, you made a VERY bold effort to sally forth and prove your points, but nearly all of them, particularly the most damning of them, lack evidence to back them up with. You make strong rhetoric, but rhetoric alone does not prove arguments. With a lacking of facts to back up your points, it must be concluded that you cannot prove anything that you have stated at all. If there ever was a straw-man's argument before, this one would be the king of all of them due to a stunning LACK of evidence to back it up with and the sheer volume of accusations. Come back when you can prove your allegations, and don't go around spinning new moonbeams and lies that simply do not exist.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #36
53. The British Commander
Gen. Sir Robert Jackson, whose troops slaughtered 14 innocent people in Derry! If anyone is a war criminal, it's HIM!
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knight_of_the_star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #53
58. Yeah, that's him!
Didn't his troops call him the Prince of Darkness or something like that?
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #58
73. I dunno
Edited on Sun Oct-19-03 03:11 PM by Padraig18
But I could give you a few choice names the Irish people call him, like "The Butcher of Derry"...

It's disgusting how the anti-Clark crowd continually cite this 'virtuous' man as an authoratative source on what transpired in Pristina. they lose ALL credibility with me as soon as they utter his name...
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #53
112. Wrong.
Sir Michael (not Robert) was at the time plain Captain Jackson, the Adjutant ('office manager', as it were) of the Parachute Regiment's 1st Battalion. He was not in command of anything that day; his boss Col. Wilford was.
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knight_of_the_star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #112
115. I know
that he had a bad reputation among his troops though. That much I'm sure of.
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #115
129. Really? Care to support that with a cite?
Because if you're going by his 'Prince of Darkness' nick, that's more a term of respect.
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knight_of_the_star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #129
164. One sec
Lemme dig up the link, cause I know that they called him something like that out of disrespect. I know that he had a rep of being VERY melodramatic though.
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OKNancy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
37. Dean people have some good ideas..here's one
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SeveneightyWhoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #37
50. I would donate to Clark if I could!
When I visited his "donate" page and had to agree to this before donating, "I am a United States citizen or am admitted for permanent residence in the United States", I was a little dissapointed. Canadians can be patriotic Americans too, goddammit!
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gully Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 02:48 PM
Response to Original message
41. But, but, but.... he's got 4 stars and a cleft chin?! And those eyes...
dreamy... :loveya: ;)
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JasonBerry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #41
218. I hate to say it...
I think there is more truth to your point than most people realize. There are a LOT of people, I am afraid, supporting Clark because they are swept off there feet with his "dreamy" looks. Women and men, both. What a way to pick a candidate for president of the United States.
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seventhson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 02:48 PM
Response to Original message
46. BRAVO CODE NAME D!!! Don't let the bastards get you down.
I had breakfast with some officers in the reserves (guys my age who went in to get a leg up on life) and they were discussing Clark. He was described as arrogant and an egomaniac and dangerous by these military men.

The fact is that the Clark enterprise like the Bush enterprise is funded by the very same folks who will come to DU and try to spin Clark (as they have done with Kerry) as OKAY.

ANYONE who says otherwise is delusional (oh, but with the rules now you cannot SAY that so it turns up as psychobabble demeaning you)

Now we KNOW that DU has become THE hotspot for the Democratic debate and spin.

Now that Chris Heinz declared that he was posting here at DU EVERY political entity is going to be here and is going to watch this site and post here to SPIN their stuff.

Since Clark is the PNAC alternative to Bush now that Kerry has tanked - this trend of attacking ANYONE who discusses these issues and Clark's negatives here at DU will be attacked like those big shiny greenflies eating shit.

THIS IS THE DEMOCRATIC DEBATE FIELD. WE ARE THE DEBATERS.

So THANKS for your insightful analysis and summation of the dangers and perils of the Bushian and Rovian Clark. We can excpect the Bushian and Rovian responses which will in turn cry that our critiques are Rove talking points.

How Machiavellian.

Clark's record speaks for itself: He is a Republican neocon militarist who will do whatever propels him to power for his sponsors in the war machine industry. And IMHO so are ALL of his supporters and protectors.

Just like with Kerry (altho some people may honestly be fooled by Kerry so maybe not ALL are intentionally dupes of the right)



I think DEAN/Edwards will kick Bushes ass back to Crawford and MAYBE to Gitmo or the Hague.







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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #46
57. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Code_Name_D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #57
136. Retoric Vs actions.
Clark did fund rasing for the Republicans.
Clark was Kisinger's lobeist.
Clark is on the board or is an advier to 11 corperations. Some of which have DEEP neo-con conections.

Clark can talk until he is blue in the face. But his record betrayes him. And now he would have us just look past his history. That dose not speak well of his charicter.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #136
165. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
RichM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
56. You're basically quite right. Note the shallowness of the screams
raised against you. This is what one would expect from Clark supporters, who consistently have been heavy-handed in their attempts to push their viewpoint. The first time objections were raised against Clark, their angry reply was "This has been debunked already." The quality & integrity of reply has never gotten beyond that.

I agree entirely with your summation sentence: "The question is who is Clark loyal to?" When I see him on TV, he doesn't seem like a bad guy. But he does seem like a clever opportunist - one that would have been happy to run as a Republican, had the top spot in that party been available.

I fully get the impression that, as you said, "Clark will not challenge the Globalist Neo-cons." There isn't the slightest indication that he intends to do so. He is taking no risks, and saying nothing that would deeply upset the ruling elite. He is not a boat-rocker. He is 100% Establishment, trying to get by on his military glory, his pleasant personality, & a platform of vague generalities, designed more than anything to avoid offending the powerful.
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SeveneightyWhoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #56
59. Clark, an opportunist, hmmm.
Considering that he's only in the race because of the Draft Clark movement, and this his his first stint in politics, I don't know how you came to the conclusion that he's an "opportunist". A whole lot of allegations and silly labels being thrown around here.
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WillyBrandt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #56
61. I specifically cited and refuted a lie in the post
Regarding Clark's dismissal. And have received no response. In fact, that particular lie has been addressed many times, but it continues to the spread by the willfully dishonest.
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #61
62. You specifically cited BUNK
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WillyBrandt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #62
65. How so?
Edited on Sun Oct-19-03 03:05 PM by WillyBrandt
The claim was that Clinton fired Clark; I cited and quoted a Clinton aide that exactly contradicted the claim. See above, msg number six.

How did I cite Bunk? Please explain it to me carefully, so us doofus Clark supporters can understand.

(And, no, enthusiastic capitalization does not count as a rebuttal.)
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WillyBrandt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #62
76. Again, please respond
You said I cited Bunk in my response to the lie about Clark's dismissal.

Please explain how it's Bunk.
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Code_Name_D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #61
142. Um, you through out a qoute from Clark's book.
Unless you would have me beleive Clark would render testamony against himself, I do not beleive Clark's dismisel has been refuted. :eye:

Claiming that it is refuted, dose not make it so.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #142
150. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Code_Name_D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #150
160. Thank you for the insult.
Can I have another please?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #160
162. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Code_Name_D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #162
166. Thanks again for the insult.
Can I have another please?

If I miss qouted you, you are at liberty to point this out at any time. But calling me a lier is against the rules. Showing me to be a lier, is not.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 05:17 PM
Original message
Deleted message
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Code_Name_D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
180. I am not deleting your posts.
You need to adhear to the rulles.

Your first falsehood is to claim that Clinton fired Clark. This is false, has been addressed many times on DU, yet you post it anyway.

He was forced out by Clintion. Shortly following the indednt where Clark was over rulled, preventing him from attacking the Russans. Incurage to retire, fired, outsised. It all means the same thing.

Your second falsehood is to reply to my rebuttal by saying I quoted Clark, when in truth I quoted Sidney Blumenthal.

I may have you confused with some one else. But you still haven't show me how Blumenthal debunks any thing. So far, all you have done, is called me a lier. A very week argument.
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eileen_d Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #56
63. "shallowness of the screams?" did you read post 36
or any of the other point-by-point refutations of the "facts" as presented in the original post? (I'm not claiming to be one of them - I leave that to folks more well-armed than I am, plus I don't support him exclusively.)

Your agreement with the original post apparently is based on "When I see him on TV..." so please don't call Clark supporters shallow.
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seventhson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #56
67. They seem to be investing a lot of energy here
Edited on Sun Oct-19-03 03:06 PM by seventhson
and they seem to have a lot of resources to invest here to promote Clark.

It is damn scary.

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WillyBrandt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #67
68. a lot of resources?
you mean, like a free afternoon?

actually, we're all dressed in golden robes in a secret PNAC bunker, infiltrating DU's precious bodily fluid.
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dobak Donating Member (808 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #68
75. LOL!!!
I am at a undisclosed location also.

In fact, I think I may be sitting on Cheney.
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SeveneightyWhoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #68
78. LMAO
Exactly. I'm just sitting here, drinking coffee and bathing in thousand dollar bills that Bill Kristol just sent to me for defending his next puppet, Clark, on a Democratic internet forum.

What a job!
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knight_of_the_star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #68
96. ROFLMAO!
SWEET! Yeah, I'm sitting here on my diamond encrusted throne with a phone line hooked up to the White House and PNAC HQ so that if I'm feeling peckish I can order Bushie Baby to go bomb some village of brown people ::sarcasm OFF::
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seamarq Donating Member (159 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #67
81. Uhhh....
could it be that Clark has a lot of Dems that support him? Damn, you guys just can't stand it unless there is a conspiracy.
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SeveneightyWhoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #81
84. What?
Personally, like I've already stated, I'm only here because Bill Kristol is paying me. I honestly dont think any Democrats like Clark, c'mon, be serious! His liberal positions and strong criticism of everything Republican is proof that he's nothing but a rightwing puppet.
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knight_of_the_star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #56
85. Read my post
You know, number 36, the one that is as long as the original post?

The one that cites evidence, unlike the original post.
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knight_of_the_star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #85
108. By the lack of response
I would assume that you did not and have left or did and are wisely shutting up.
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dobak Donating Member (808 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 03:08 PM
Response to Original message
70. The "Real" Wesley Clark
Edited on Sun Oct-19-03 03:09 PM by dobak
http://www.ontheissues.org/Wesley_Clark_VoteMatch.htm


Wow, sounds like a PNAC Republican to me. It would be better vote for Bush and get a known evil than an unknown one

</sarcasm>

:-)




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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #70
93. Make sure we are not voting for a General Jack Ripper!
"But today, war is too important to be left to politicians. They have neither the time, the training, nor the inclination for strategic thought. I can no longer sit back and allow Communist infiltration, Communist indoctrination, Communist subversion and the international Communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids."
--General Ripper
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eileen_d Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #93
94. When in doubt, quote Strangelove.
Is that how it works?
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #94
102. All generals are the same
Franks, Clark, Boykin...
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knight_of_the_star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #102
104. That is just plain fuzzy logic
And I'm betting the next thing you're going to say is that all people that don't support your candidate are secretly doing the work of GWB huh? Painting people with a broad brush is the same kind of stereotyping that Racism is based on, something that you claim to hate.
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eileen_d Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #104
114. Calling that fuzzy logic
is an insult to fuzzy logic, IMO. It's grasping at straws.
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knight_of_the_star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #114
119. Thanks for pointing that out eileen
I apologize to those here who have used fuzzy logic before, I didn't mean to insult the concept of fuzzy logic ;).
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Bread and Circus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #102
118. Outright falsehood....
It's this kind of statement that makes
me so mad at the Green Party members.
Even Nader, whom I respected, fooled us
all by helping Bush get elected. Now where
is Nader? Where is his leadership? How has
he made anything better since he decided to
run? He's a great consumer advocate but he
hurt the left with his Quixotic bid in 2000.
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dobak Donating Member (808 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #102
124. you have to be kidding
You seem have no grasp of reality when it comes to topics on the military


Military = bad = evil


Is that how it works?

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dobak Donating Member (808 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #93
99. huh?
What does Dr. Strangelove have to do with this?
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 03:10 PM
Response to Original message
74. Funny How Original Poster Isn't Here To Participate
But then sometimes posters seem mainly intent on inciting reactions and not engendering true discussions.
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SeveneightyWhoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #74
80. Maybe "original poster"...
..you know, has a life to proceed with, or something?
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #80
90. HowNice They Dropped A Load Of Half Truths
Before going on to other things....

Information without Discrimination (such as what original poster wrote here) is merely the stuff of Confusion and Paranoia.
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knight_of_the_star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #90
91. Exactly
If he wants to make such serious charges and refuses to be around to defend them, then I doubt that he himself believs in what he says, or at least knows he can't back it up.
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Code_Name_D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #91
128. Nice to see other folks like talking behind backs.
You must be new here. I have been participating in this conversation for the past month.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #128
135. Deleted message
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seventhson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #135
149. The PNAC is supposedly bipartisan TOO but the Policies are Fascist
and so is Clark IMHO

The noise here is deafening.

The Rethugs were VERY smart to recruit Clark to run as a Democrat.

People fall for that shit every time.

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Code_Name_D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #149
154. Good point.
I will have to remeber that in the fucher.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #154
169. Deleted message
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #149
157. What Foolish Ignorance
If you had bothered to go to the link in my previous post regarding the NED and READ you'd know how ignorant your statements are.

What is "fascist" about the following list of NED Fellows and their programs?


haihark Hahm, (November 2001 - August 2002)
Constitutionalism and Democracy in South Korea
Dr. Hahm's project focuses on constitutional review and democracy in South Korea. He examines the role of
the Korean Constitutional Court in building democracy in South Korea, using a comparative framework that
considers the influence of political culture and cultural traditions

Charlie James Hughes, (May 2002 - August 2002)
A Practitioner's Handbook on Civic Education Initiatives
Charlie Hughes is the director and "driving force" behind the Forum for Democratic Initiatives (FORDI) in
Sierra Leone. His project focuses on civic education initiatives in the United States which can be applied in
Sierra Leone

Ramin Jahanbegloo, (October 2001 - August 2002 )
Intellectuals and Democracy in Iran
Dr. Jahanbegloo's project focuses on the role of Iranian intellectuals in promoting Iranian democracy,
including the attitudes of youth and young professionals in Iran today

Yuriy Krynytskyy, (April - August 2002)
Political Technologies and the Promotion of Democracy in Ukraine
Mr. Krynytskyy is a young activist from Kharkiv, Ukraine, who serves as press secretary and head of a
district division of the "Rukh" party (People's Movement of Ukraine).

Ndubisi Obiorah, (June - August 2002)
Corruption and Democracy in Africa: A Comparative Perspective
Mr. Obiorah is a Nigerian human rights lawyer who has worked for HURILAWS, the Human Rights Law
Service in Lagos
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Code_Name_D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #157
161. You are trying to change the subject again.
Potinting to good works, dose not dismiss the bad. And many of these "good" works are not all that they seem.

Much out our "democratization" is little more than laying the groundwork for prifitization and devluping the regone as a market to be exploited. And Iranan democrac? You mean the same Iran that is part of the "Axis of evil?"
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #161
173. Deleted message
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Code_Name_D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #173
192. Putting words in my mouth?
I never called Clark a fashist. You are attempting to link my argument with the arguments of ohters. So me taking up your offer to "shut up" may not be wize, considering your willingus to apply an argument on me that I have not made. Becase I also do not recall calling the NED a fasist operation eather. A globelist neo-con, sure, but not a fashists.

Any other strawmen you want me to ignore?
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knight_of_the_star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #192
202. You implied it
Very obviously by linking them to the neo-cons, who I do not doubt are NOT facist. You may not have called him one, but you VERY STRONGLY implied it!

Also,

WHERE IS YOUR PROOF THAT I ASKED FOR?
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Code_Name_D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #202
205. No, YOU are emplying it.
I happen to mean what I say, and say what I mean. Any thing else, if a fiction of your emagination.

And please. This whole thread is a AWASH with your evdince.
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knight_of_the_star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #205
210. If it is so awash in evidence
Then you shouldn't have any problem with pulling together sources from non-partisan sources, like maybe CNN or something like that, and listing of all the evidence. The fact that you refuse to shows to me that you have none. And you can say all you want about saying what you mean, what you have been saying has no proof or solid backing whatsoever.
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Code_Name_D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #210
217. You have already demonstrated a biase.
I just gave you presicly such evdince, posted from Tinor. You said that YOU AREADY KNEW OF IT. So why should any one trust what you are saying? Your aidea of "refuting an argument" is ignoring the facts. Weather I post the fact, I post my own facts, or I post Tinor's facts is irrelvent to you.

Your task here is simple. Attack, attack, attack. But your teeth are pulled.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #217
230. Deleted message
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Code_Name_D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #230
235. I already gave you evdince!
You are the one who ignored it. Heck, you don't even know what the question is any more.

I am not ingoring you. But perhaps now is as good a time as any to start. You are doing nothing more than calling me names any way.

-Good by.
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knight_of_the_star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #235
238. Then where is it?
I'm aksing you to post the evidence that you claim to have, but you haven't. Why do you think I keep asking for it, because it entertains me to waste my breath?

Again, I offer you the chance to yield and spare yourself of futher embarrasment as an honourable man does for one who is obviously beaten.
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kiahzero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #217
234. Tinore's facts are irrelevant
They don't demonstrate anything. All they show is that Cohen and Shelton didn't care for Clark or his methods, and worked to get him sacked. Pointing that out isn't "demonstrating a bias"... using it as if it demonstrated some flaw of Clark's, however, is.
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knight_of_the_star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #234
240. All it points out
Is that he is a determined individual to the point that it is unwise to continue. I don't see that as a flaw when you want to take on the BFEE.
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Code_Name_D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #135
153. If your response is an example of the refutations...

Than my arguments are build on a solid standing. Your "refutations" are week as best, spin at worst. But your defenses of Clark seems to be largely build largely on calling me names. Let us take a closer look.

I mean, why are you regurgitating the same pile of lies, half truths and innuendo? Bascially, you've just admitting to the fact you are here to either scare people away from Clark or to incite flamewars.

I have admitted that I was lying? I have admitted that I wanted to start a flame war? Oh, yay. That must be it.

Your incomplete and FALSE info has been addressed numerous times.

No. I have been TOLD that they have been refuted numerous times. So many that I have lost count.

If you've been participating how could you knot have come across the information that proves your assertions grossly incorrect and distorted?

Do tell.

For instance,

You try to establish "guilt by association" by mentioning the NED, the fact that Clark was on the board and that the Republican members MAY have encouraged the opposition to Chavez in Venezuela.


A Venezuela news paper claims that Clark was directly involved. But of course, member of the board are NEVER held responsible for any thing are they. Just look at Enron and Kenneth Lay. The fact that Clark was a member of the board makes his legally liable for ALL board activities. Your "guilt by association" charge dose not hold water here.

Yoiu also LIE and say the NED is a "rightwing organization"

You NEGLECT to mention that:

1. The NED is a BIPARTISAN ORGANISATION
2. The NED had MANY fellows who used their grants to further the cause of Democrcy throughout the world.


Oh, there were Democrats on the board. (Apparently one of them wasn't Clark, was it.) That makes every thing OK. We all know Democrats are not right wing conservatives, don't we.

3. MANY of the NED boardmembers are and have been well respected Democrats and Union people. Walter Mondale was an original member and his seat went to Paul Wellstone.

Oh I see. Clark is not guilty by assassin, but Paul Wellstone is? Typical. We get ourselves backed into a corner, so we try and change the subject. We aren't talking about Wellstone here, we are talking about Clark here.

And yet you use the NED to make Clark a boogieman.... because some of the Neo-Cons also sit on the BIPARTISAN ORGANISATION.

And we all know Clark is bipartisan, don't we. Well, this bipartisan organization was responsible for funding and supporting the cues in Venezuela. Dose that make you happy? Any other straw men you want to hit me with?

You presented only that information that helped prop up your distorted viewpoint about Clark and ignored the relevant information.

You can present this "evidence" any time you wish.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #153
178. Deleted message
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Code_Name_D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #178
195. Your right, I don't have evdince.
My post is an ARGUMENT. I am working with the conclusions of others. If you want to argue the facts, than I sujest you go back and talk to Tinor and Stickdog. But I have seen some of your argument with them, and they are pathetic at best against some one who is truly informed.

Odd. I don't see you attempting to argue any of my conclusions though. No coments yet about what Clark may do with the DLC, or that he may protect McKaffey. Notihng about Clark "not cleaning house." Nothing about Clark being part of the Globlist agenda. Nothing about Clark being on the bords of 11 companes.

I see a lot of ruffled fethers. Still no meat.
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Code_Name_D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #195
201. But here is your evdince.
Edited on Sun Oct-19-03 05:46 PM by Code_Name_D
Tinoire - You may not like or agree with the reasons but please be frank here! Clark was fired by Cohen and Shelton. Shelton already hinted at why, you can expect more news to be hitting the media soon but you won't be able to dismiss it as Rove spin because there was too published when the incident occurred. Your weak spin is worse than no defense!

=============================================

General Wesley Clark, the supreme commander of Nato who repeatedly clashed with Washington during the war against Yugoslavia, has been told to leave his post early.
He will make way for a US air force general considered more amenable by the Clinton administration.
------------------------
Gen Clark, a four-star officer in the US army, ruffled Pentagon feathers with vociferous complaints that he was hamstrung in the battle for Kosovo by the need to win consensus among the Nato allies and by US reluctance to approve combat missions which might mean American casualties.

In particular Washington repeatedly blocked his requests to use Apache helicopter gunships against Serb forces and paramilitary groups carrying out ethnic cleansing, preferring instead to stick to a policy of high-altitude bombing.

Despite Pentagon insistence yesterday that Gen Clark's early retirement had nothing to do with his performance in the war, the manner in which he was informed about it was widely interpreted in Washington and Europe as a snub.

The chairman of the US joint chiefs of staff, General Henry Shelton, called him as he attended a formal dinner on Tuesday night and told him the news - an hour before it was leaked to the Washington Post.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Kosovo/Story/0,2763,208090,00.html

----------------------------------
Journal of the Air Force Assocation September 2001 Vol. 84, No. 9

It was exactly this obsession with trying to put boots on the ground in the form of an invasion in Kosovo that likely cost Clark his job as SACEUR. Even in its rockiest periods, the US military Chiefs and White House officials offered steady support for the NATO air campaign. Clark, however, lobbied hard for a NATO decision to gear up for land war.

As it turned out, Clark was completely at odds with Washington and European leaders about the preferred direction of the war. His penalty was high. Just one month after the end of Allied Force, White House officials leaked the embarrassing news that Clark would retire earlier than planned and vacate the SACEUR post for another officer, USAF Gen. Joseph W. Ralston, who was then the vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

http://www.afa.org/magazine/sept2001/0901clark.asp
http://www.afa.org/magazine/sept2001/0901clark_print.html
------

DATE=7/28/1999
TYPE=CORRESPONDENT REPORT
TITLE=NATO COMMANDER REPLACED (L-UPDATE)
NUMBER=2-252243
BYLINE=JIM RANDLE
DATELINE=SEOUL
CONTENT=


INTRO: The United States is replacing the general who
led NATO forces in the Kosovo conflict. General
Wesley Clark will leave his post in April after a
series of disputes with Pentagon officials over the
conduct of the war. V-O-A's Jim Randle reports,
General Clark urged Washington to hit Yugoslavia
harder, sooner and to make serious plans for a ground
campaign.

TEXT: At a news conference in Tokyo, Defense Secretary
William Cohen said he is not punishing General Clark,
but plans to replace him with Air Force General Joe
Ralston anyway. ((And those of you who believe that nicety have never served a day in the Military!))

<snip>

In an interview in Tokyo, Pentagon spokesman Ken Bacon
portrayed the change as a normal rotation, but General
Clark will serve less than three years, while most
previous NATO commanders held the post for four.

<snip>
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/ops/docs99/990728-kosovo01.htm

Tinoire, Post #138.

That be good enugh for ya?
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knight_of_the_star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #201
204. Tell me something I DON'T know
I already knew about that, thank you. He got in trouble with his superiors A LOT for being "too gung ho". I still don't see the evidence to back up ALL OF YOUR OTHER CHARGES AGAINST HIM. This is NOTHING new. I was asking about ALL THE OTHER CHARGES YOU MADE, like his corporate associations (you have yet to name the 11 companies), the charges you made that the NED is a neo-con agency, ties to the PNAC (there are few, if any), choosing to run as Bush's VP or trying to get the slot, what about THOSE? The controversy between Clark and the Pentagon is nothing new, he's been in the thick of it every since he got his first star.
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Code_Name_D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #204
207. Hold on a sec.
You already KNEW about this? And you acuse ME of presenting half truths? Tell me, if I was right about this, what ELSE may I be right about? I may indead be arguing from a position of ignrance. But you have just showed to be arguing from a biased argument.

No wonder you like Clark's integrity.
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Code_Name_D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #207
211. No come back? Or are you still muncing on your foot?
But I am gratefull actual. You helped me to prove my point. :P
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #211
216. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #211
232. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #207
214. Deleted message
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Code_Name_D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #214
222. Oh, looks like I tuched a nerve there.
Num-num-num. Still no teeth.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #222
227. Deleted message
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Code_Name_D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #227
231. You have the biase, but I am the dishonrable one?
Perhaps you should look up the word "hornable." I do not think it means what you think it means.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #231
236. Deleted message
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knight_of_the_star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #231
244. By your lack of response
I will take it that you are conceding.
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kiahzero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #244
246. To be fair
he could be busy doing something else; I know I'm trying to write a paper at the same time.
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knight_of_the_star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #246
247. True
He could be, but he was so fervent in his charge up until just now, so I'm guessing he's backing down.
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kiahzero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #207
215. I'm embarrased for you
And you should be embarrased for yourself - you're exposing yourself as incapable of putting together a logical argument. Don't worry, you're not the only one.

He pointed that it's indeed old news that Clark got sacked, and that Cohen and Shelton don't like him. That doesn't confirm anything, because Cohen and Shelton's testimony has little value; many of us believe they are biased observers.

Nice try at indignation, though.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #195
206. Deleted message
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knight_of_the_star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #206
223. Oh what?
No ignorant, insulting comeback for this one? I thought that you LIKED argument.
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knight_of_the_star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #128
167. Apparently
You should know I've been here since March of 2002. How long have you been? Also, this thread has only been oging on for today, how can you say you've been in this conversation for a month, hmmm?
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ShaneGR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 03:13 PM
Response to Original message
82. If only you spent this much time going after Bush
blah blah blah
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dobak Donating Member (808 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #82
97. how true.....
He spends so much time "investigating" (I use that word very loosely with Code_Name_D) Clark's shortcomings that he does not realize that, even if his accusations were 100% true (which they are nowhere close), Clark would still be exponentially better than Bush.
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 03:23 PM
Response to Original message
98. This should be called "Today's Clark hating flame war." Featuring...
Edited on Sun Oct-19-03 04:02 PM by Bleachers7
All the well known Clark haters. Thanks for today's red meat. Actually it's more like corned beef Re-hash. Flame away kids.
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knight_of_the_star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #98
105. Not even that
More like recycled lunch meat

eeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww, I can't believe I just thought of that stuff ::shudders::.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #98
109. It should be called:
"The same flame-bait SHIT in a brand-new screed, delivered for the 913th time', IMO. :eyes:
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JasonBerry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #98
224. And....
"This should be called "Today's Clark hating flame war. Featuring all the well known Clark haters."

You forgot the supporting cast: All the well-known Clark worshipers.
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KFC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 03:44 PM
Response to Original message
117. Clark CAN Beat Bush
I know he can.

General Clark has the clout.

GENERAL Clark has my vote.
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SeveneightyWhoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #117
131. Haha, thats news to me!
Clark can beat Bush? Are you absolutely SURE?
An accomplished veteran and retired General with excellent leadership qualities, intelligence, and public speaking (not to mention very handsome and electable)--a man that steals all of Bush's ONLY issues to run on (ie. security)--can actually beat the idiotic Chimp? I don't believe it.

The fact is, almost anyone could beat Bush, but its not about beating Bush--its about beating the rightwing smear/lie/propaganda machine and the corrupt, biased media that the machine runs on. And Clark is the only one that can beat that machine handily.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #131
132. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
andym Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 03:49 PM
Response to Original message
121. The ultimate conspiracy theory
Clark is really a trojan/stalking horse for Governor Dean.
He is running purely to take the heat off of Dean, and will
then dropout to become Dean's Vice President

Logic: Guilt by association and timing
Clark met with Dean shortly before he declared for President
(remember the vice president stories circulating) to setup the
whole thing. Notice the timing of their chat--- it just has to be.

Dean "knew" that Clark would get an enormous amount of press,
deflecting attention from himself.

This is why so many people have a "bad feeling" about Clark,
they sense he is Dean's stalking horse, but can't quite make
the thought conscious.

(Comment: note the "logic" of this post, and how often it is used
to defame Clark, Dean and others. And it can easily be extended.
Assumption: Dean is rarely if ever fooled by neocons like Bush. Therefore, if the original poster is right, and Clark is really a neocon, then given their secret, but now obvious plan to act together as a team, Dean too must be one.)

Btw, I like personally like both the Governor and the General.
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seventhson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #121
151. Yup and if Dean is elected and Clark is his VP ITS WELLSTONE time
for the BFEE.


THAT is the plan of the BFEE IMHO.


Kerry or Clark as VP and Dean is a goner, I'd bet. That is how the military works.
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PA-DEM Donating Member (182 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 03:50 PM
Response to Original message
122. YAWNING
What are all you jr Roves going to do when the Iowa caucas is over and Dean drops out. Then who will you back?
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knight_of_the_star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
123. Based on the responses and posts here
I would have to say that the verdict is:

Clark not guilty of all charges. Now lets get on with fighting the real enemy all ready!
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dobak Donating Member (808 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #123
125. yes!
:-)
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 03:53 PM
Response to Original message
126. "This Thread Ain't Nothing But Shit"
NT
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 04:25 PM
Response to Original message
140. I was born in Ireland, and I understand hate intimately
Edited on Sun Oct-19-03 04:26 PM by Padraig18
On a 'hate scale' of 1-10 here at DU, the "Clark Haters" score an 11! NO ONE hates better than they do! :eyes:
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DemExpat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #140
147. True....if only they'd use all of that hate to fight Bush.....
:kick:

DemEx
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #147
148. Ain't it the truth?
:eyes:
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knight_of_the_star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #148
191. So sad aye?
Such fury and passion. So admirable. Yet so wasted.
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 05:09 PM
Response to Original message
163. Clark bashers are good at *asking* questions, but poor at answering any.
Edited on Sun Oct-19-03 05:15 PM by Padraig18
I've posted the IWCT's prosecutor's statement to the UNSC here TWICE in response to the 'war crimes' meme, and have failed to receive a response. The only conclusion I can draw from that lack of response is "Gotcha!".

On edit:

Here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=557259&mesg_id=557600&page=

and here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=557259&mesg_id=557593&page=

And here's what I posted:

"...‘No Deliberate Targeting of Civilians’
Still, Amnesty’s hopes for a probe have already been all but dashed.
Last week, Carla Del Ponte, the chief prosecutor for the U.N. War Crimes Tribunal, told the Security Council there was no basis for opening an investigation into allegations of NATO violations.
Del Ponte said that although “mistakes were made by NATO,” she was “very satisfied that there was no deliberate targeting of civilians or unlawful military targets.”
NATO flew 38,000 combat missions in its two ½-month air campaign against Serbia last year. While NATO has never released figures on civilian deaths, the Yugoslav government says as many as 600 civilians were killed...."

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/kosovo000607.html
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WillyBrandt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #163
171. It's like arguing with Freepers or UFOlogists
There's just no point. They don't care about reasoned debate. They aren't looking for information: they're looking for ammunition.
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OKNancy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #171
176. Clark is on C-Span tonight
The C-SPAN Video Magazine "Road to the White House" covers Wesley Clark when he spoke to students at Hunter College. It is on 6:30 PM ET / 9:30 PM PT.

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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #171
177. It is VERY MUCH like arguing with freepers!
Same tactics, same lack of facts, same refusal to engage in debate when confronted with overwhelming evidence that is contrary to their preconceived notions, etc. :eyes:
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knight_of_the_star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #177
181. Yeah
To think that these are the kind of people that are helping us take back this country :wow:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 05:20 PM
Response to Original message
174. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #174
197. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 05:20 PM
Response to Original message
175. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #175
179. Well...
Edited on Sun Oct-19-03 05:24 PM by Padraig18
"...The very best thing that could happen to our country is for this wonderful man to be elected president..."

How about VICE-President? :P :bounce: :hi:
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MoonRiver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #179
185. That would be the SECOND best thing!
:hi:
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DemExpat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #179
186. Vice Pres would be so-so....Pres would be great....
:D
:bounce:

:hi:

DemEx
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DemExpat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #175
183. I also think Clark would be the best thing to happen to the US....
the right man at the right time!

I liked Clinton and his efforts, I see Clark being able to do much more.

DemEx
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knight_of_the_star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #175
187. Well said!
The amount of vitriol that the Clark haters are spewing out seems to be reaching record amounts again. I wonder if they will STILL be doing this after Clark has done his 8 years and pulled this country out of the rut and onto a new Golden Age.
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neverforget Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 05:43 PM
Response to Original message
199. The usual Clark bashers are at it again! There's a conspiracy
by the Repugs/neocons to run Clark as Democrat but little does anyone know, except the Clark bashers, of course (they know everything about Clark), that he's really a PNAC plant and wants to control the Dems for the Repukes! :eyes:

When I lived in Montana, I had a friend who thought that the UN was going to take over the US because he supposedly saw UN vehicles on rail cars. So I asked another friend of mine who worked on the Burlingon Northern Railroad, he said that those vehicles were bought by Canada in the US and were headed to somewhere in Canada, but they did have the UN painted on them. Since Canada is actively involved in the UN, it makes perfect sense but my friend automatically assumed the worse. He also believed in Black Helicopters. He wasn't a member of the Militia of Montana or a Freeman, he was just a gullible guy who hated Clinton and thought he was a UN plant.

If you hate something enough, you'll rationalize and twist anything to fit a preconcieved view.
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 05:49 PM
Response to Original message
203. Oh, Ma! Leftovers again?
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Vis Numar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 06:03 PM
Response to Original message
212. ugh
"Clark will not challenge the Globalist Neo-con's, the true power in the world."

Unfortunately, this is correct. I became disenchanted long before he became a candidate, I supported him up to his taking on the BOD for that hydro-enviro outfit in May, and stating he'd use his contacts to gain access to the Pentagon for military contracts.

Sorry, I'll pass.
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 06:10 PM
Response to Original message
220. yawn. Okay. Who's next? Dean?
*
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #220
250. Let me check my list..
... I don't rcall any Kucinich, Mosely-Braun or Sharpton bashing threads in the last several days. Shall we cast lots? :P
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retyred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 06:11 PM
Response to Original message
221. This is amazing!
Where do you people find the time?.....Only the "Shadow" knows!



Retyred In Fla

So I Read This Book
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MoonRiver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #221
239. Love your website!
"Too cool", as my grandson would say. :hi:
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knight_of_the_star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #221
243. Nice website
Did you make it?
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jokerman93 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-03 08:41 PM
Response to Original message
264. Maybe Clark, though traditionally conservative,
is a man of conscience.

I know many of us in this country bacame increasingly alarmed as we watched this administration run willynilly away from all commonsense, basic decency and rule of law.

Is it so hard to believe that an obviously thoughtful and canny man such as Gen. Clark might have come to similar conclusions -- as many of us have over the last few years -- about the dangerous direction this appointed presidency has taken us?

I'm willing to believe that Clark made a strategic decision to place himself where he feels most able to challenge the extremists in the WH.

Maybe for a military man, party isn't so much an issue of loyalty as it is a utilitarian political machine -- a tool to be used for the aquisition and redistribution of power. The Democratic party is the best chance this country has for a return to sanity for this country.

His change seems plausible to me under the circumstances.



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