Hugo Chavez. What's going to happen when

[GirlinContempt]

there is a Democratic president in office and he still opposes him/her?
Will you view him any differently?

I get the feeling a lot of people support him because he's anti-Bush, but he was also around for the Clinton years and was never a fan.

[1932]

1. Actually, Clinton was a fan.

There's a quote out there somewhere where Clinton's state department said that because Chavez cared about the poor, he was on the same page as Clinton and they were enthusiastic about his government.

Also, Clinton's State Department considered Venezuela a functioning democracy and allocated no money to democracy issues in Venezuela (every year, the state department presents a budget in which they give ratings to countries -- the lower the rating, the less money is allocated to addressing political issues in that country; IIRC, five is a low, if not the lowest rating, and for '99, '00 and '01, Venezuela was ranked five).

When Bush became president, Venezuela suddenly got a number one ranking in the annual budget review which then meant that money would be allocated to encourage "democracy."

Also, Chavez tells a story in, I believe, his interview book with Aleida Guevara, about meeting with Clinton and about agreeing with him on key issues.

So, it would be nice to have a president who isn't a total market fundamentalist who is enthusiastic about real economic development in the rest of the world. Clinton got half-way to that, and still managed to get along well with Chavez, so I'm hoping that the next Democratic president will both not be a market fundamentalist and will get along with Venezuela as least as well as Clinton did.

[GirlinContempt]

4. CLINTON may have been a fan

but Chavez wasn't.
He saw Clinton for what he was: A Dem with some very conservative policies and ideas.
While he wasn't as strongly opposed to him (as he wasn't directly involved in things like coups or spreading lies) he was not a Clinton supporter.

[1932]

7. I'll repeat: Chavez says nice things about Clinton in this book:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1920888004/qid=1134847860/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-0913486-6351016?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

But I'm not sure what your point is.

I think people like Chavez not because he hates bush but because he beleives in Keynesian economics, because he's not a neoliberal, because he cares abotu the poor, and because he provides healthcare, education and economic opportunity for his citizens. He'll do that regardless of who is president of the US, and if we have a president like Clinton (or better than Clinton) then everything will be cool for everyone -- for Americans, for Venezuelans, for Chavez, for the US president, maybe not for Wall Street, but for human beings everywhere.

[GirlinContempt]

10. Chavez also didn't

support him. I've said nice things about Pat Martin, but I don't support him.

What my main question boils down to is what you just answered. Do people like Chavez because he's anti-Bush or because of his policies.

[1932]

11. Not according to that book above.

I think Chavez thought that Clinton could be convinced to do the right thing. In fact, that's the gist of a story he tells about Clinton in the Guevara book. On their second meeting, Clinton said that he came to agree with something Chavez tried to explain to him in their first meeting.

Incidentally, Chavez and Clinton share a good friend: Gabriel Garcia Marquez.

In Richard Gott's book on Chavez, he talks about meeting Marquez while in Venezuela to interview Chavez. I presume that Marquez is a fan of Chavez. Marquez liked Clinton for reasons similar to what I infer above is the reason Chavez liked Clinton: he could be convinced to do the right thing (if Treasury didn't limit Clinton's access to good information -- for more on that issue, read Globalization and its Discontents, by Joe Stieglitz).

BTW, on what evidence are you basing your claim that Chavez didn't like Clinton?

[GirlinContempt]

12. Well

Chavez has always been openly opposed to a lot of the things Clinton did in office (tax reforms, torture laws, free trade, to name a few). And he says the same things about Bush as Clinton, only that Clinton would listen and Bush wouldn't.

"I could deal with President Bush. I would like very much to be able to debate issues with him. I would like to transform this confrontation, this aggressive rhetoric, into a mature, serious debate on common issues. With President Clinton, we were able to sit and talk. But with this administration, it is impossible to talk because they want to impose things on you. If Mr. Bush changes his procedures and approaches, it would be excellent to talk and discuss current issues."
-Chavez, interview with the Washington Post

I didn't say he didn't LIKE him, I said he wasn't a Clinton SUPPORTER. The same as he wouldn't be a Bush supporter even if he was able to have his discussions and debates.

So I'm basing it on Chavez making speeches about his dislike of all the neoliberal policy, the fact that he never supported him, and that he would vocalize his opposition to Clinton (like when the Mexican peso collapsed under his NAFTA).

As I've said: I can say nice things about Pat Martin, support Pat Martins gay marriage laws, appreciate his tax proposals, but I am not a Martin supporter, and I'm still vocally against many of his policies.

[1932]

14. In other words, Chavez liked Clinton?

I've never read an example of Chavez criticizing Clinton.

[ToeBot]

8. Sounds like he had Clinton's number, Chavez is sharper than I thought n/t

[1932]

9. He was critical of a system that Clinton's Treasury Department endorsed

but he actually liked Clinton according to the book to which I linked above.

[GirlinContempt]

13. He did

Which isn't to say that he opposed everything Clinton did, or uh, Clinton as a person, just that he was not a supporter because he saw what Clintons politics were.

[1932]

15. Clinton had some good policies, like the trade agreement with Cambodia.

I'm sure Chavez supported that.

[1932]

2. Also, if a Republican had been president in December 1998, I wonder if

Chavez would even have been elected or if the Kissinger-Nixon-Allende model would have prevailed.

I know it's a very low bar to clear, but it was nice that, at the very least, in December 1998 the US wasn't actively subverting a genuine democracy movement. Kudos to Clinton.

[GirlinContempt]

6. Hm.

You know, I believe he would have been elected. They tried to go the Allende route and failed.

[manic expression]

3. At least they won't try a coup

...most likely, anyway.

[GirlinContempt]

5. Even if they did

it'd fail again

[donheld]

16. Which Democrat are you talking about?

A dem-lite who kisses the asses of every multinational corporation, or a real honest to goodness for the little people Democrat.