The Death Throes of the Democratic Party

[Eloriel]

There are probably many differences between the Democratic and Republican Parties but the one most meaningful to me is this: The Republicans have always been the protecting of the power of the wealthy and big business, while the Democratic Party has been the party preserving and upholding some power for the opeople -- all the people, but especially labor and other working people, minorities, women (as a class), the poor, the elderly, the weak. Throughout our recent history at least (20th Century and somewhat before I think), almost all the advances for the people have been thanks to the people in conjunction with the party on the left -- the 40 hr. work week, vacation and sick pay, overtime, health and retirement benefits, worker safety, right to organize (and for all these, THANK YOU, Labor!!); civil rights for minorities and women; Medicare and Social Security; and so on.

The Democratic Party wasn't always the leader in these movements but when push came to shove it was Dems who heard and answered the call. The whole purpose of the Democratic Party, from my perspective, is to mediate corporate/Republican power for The People. Part of this push and pull between the Parties involves the philosophical question: what is the purpose and appropriate use of government? Is it to serve corporations or The People? Obviously (to me at least), the answer to that question in a capitalist society is "Yes," i.e., both -- but in such a way that benefits both, creating a mutually beneficial sharing of power. Capitalism is an inherently exploitative system and that tendency must ever be reined in and kept in check.

When the DNC and DLC got together under Clinton, that line got merged and there was no structure looking out primarily, first and foremost for The People. Oh, sure, Family Leave Act passed and maybe a few other things went fairly well for our side, but by and large our Party stopped seeing serving The People as its first and foremost primay duty and raison d'etre. It now had two masters which meant that corportions and the wealthy had two servants.

One of the Democratic Party's two masters made life a lot easier for thoase who were responsible for running the Party itself -- money flowed more freely with less work. It was no longer necessary to do the hard work of building and keeping Democratic organizations throughout the nation at the precinct level -- and often not even above that. A friend of mine in Chicago is active in the Party and there is a very viable Party organization there, but I rather think this is an anomalie, esp when contrasted with how things are in most other areas that I know of.

IOW: at least from the time of The New Democrats, the Party has gotten fat (in a manner of speaking) and lazy, and grew less and less interested in its original and only true constituents -- less interested in what they had to say and even less in what they might have to offer the Party itself other than their taken for granted votes.

In 2000, Maynard Jackson wanted to become the new head of the DNC, and wanted to take the Party back to grassroots organizing again. Revitalize it. Came down to the Convention and Maxine Waters was fighting hard for Maynard, but Clinton wanted McAuliffe. They created a job for Maynard -- head of organizing or something, his very own division or department -- and Jackson dropped out of the running. And was never heard from again. He's dead now, which is its own rich metaphor.

For those who don't know of Maynard Jackson, he was the first black mayor of Atlanta. But more than that, Jimmy Carter credits the work Jackson did organizing on his behalf to his victory. "In the early days, I'd go into Baltimore for the first time, and Maynard had already paved the way for me in the black community. There was an organization already in place, welcoming me. I'd go to Detroit and it was the same thing. Over and over, everywhere I went. Maaynard Jackson was instrumental to my victory." ( Note: This is a paraphrase of words I heard Carter speak in an interview locally when Maynard died earlier this year. Rest in peace, Maynard.)

Folks, it's more than obvious that the Democratic Party has lost its way. It has lost the White House, the House, the Senate, a good many Governorships and some devastating redistricting fights that bode ill for our immediate future; it has sold its soul, forgotten its purpose, abandoned its principles, turned a permanently deaf ear to its constituents, given aid and comfort again and again to an enemy of the state and our Constitution (Bush), is in danger of losing much of its base (esp. minorities because they feel totally taken for granted), and is entering what appears to be its final death throes. Only two candidates inspire much hope, let alone excitement, tho it is early in the primary season. And against the very worst Chief Executive this country has ever seen, too many Democrats (or at least they claim to be Democrats) feel there is little chance of winning against him in 2004 and are cowed and frightened.

It's NOT a good time for the Party -- in fact, I'm tempted to say, "What Party?"

*****
Why I'm writing about this and what it has to do with DU -- and me

WE've certainly have had an influx of new members over the past number of weeks and months. This is probably no different than our normal rate of growth, and our Admin assure us that there is no change between "the old DU" and our current DU, but dammit it sure feels different. It must be me. Perhaps I've changed.


As a Dean supporter, I was of course delighted with Gore's endorsement of Dean (tho understand why some were not), and more than a little taken aback by the rather savage response from some quarters, including here. I know, somewhat naive of me. The Gore attacks seemed to me a continuation of the lack of support Gore got during the Recount period of the 2000 Election -- another dark moment in the Party's history of recent failures. Whatever anyone wants to say elsewise, Gore's treatment at the hands of some Dems WAS disrespectful, both back then and last week.

Gore gave a populist message, and a message of unity for the party, but it obviously fell on many deaf ears. It was a very jarring thing to watch unfold until I realized that that sort of fight is typical when old, outmoded structures and ways of being are fighting for their very lives, or believe they are -- IOW, when an organization is going thru its death throes. Once I realized that, it seemed somewhat less jarring.

Then came yesterday, and Saddam's capture. This to my mind changes virtually nothing but Skinner put it thusly in a fascinating post on the subject of The Capture:

On the capture of Saddam Hussein (Thread 2)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=904501

snip
With Saddam's capture and a recent up tick in the economy, the Democrats' position has weakened significantly. With a primary looming, we have to figure out how that will impact our electoral strategy. I fear that Saddam's capture has the potential to make Howard Dean a weaker General Election candidate, and might even hurt Wesley Clark, who has taken a less-outspoken anti-war position. My vote is still up for grabs, and today's news makes it even harder to choose. I'm certainly going to give greater consideration to John Kerry and John Edwards.

It's certainly his right to say whatever he wants (after all, he owns the joint), but I did read that with some surprise and just a little guardedness for what it might portend for the future at DU.

Also psychically jarring was Will Pitt's boisterous thread: I Sound My Barbaric Yawp Over The Roofs Of The World
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=911224

I think he's got the barbaric part down pat. :evilgrin:

By this time I'm beginning to feel much like I did when the Supreme Court chose Bush (though significantly less by degree): as if surely, oh surely this is not my regular world but some strange place where the names and places are the same but the rules of Reality have been warped and in a few cases warped a little beyond rcognition. IOW, I'm feeling disoriented and untethered from the Reality I had grown accustomed to, even if it did feature George Bush in the White House.

Comes today and "The Thread" -- Join the Stop Dean Movement. That one left me, already weakened and vulnerable, totally flummoxed and completely undone.

It left me a whole lot more than that even. I felt kicked in the gut and deeply saddened. Okaty, heartbroken.And even more yet than that (not to sound too melodramatic about it).

That thread, probably in context of some of these other things, broke something between me and DU. I spent much of the afternoon horrified, heartbroken, and coming to the realization that things here at DU were unalterably changed for me, AND that there are many, many other more productive ways I should be spending my time anyway. Hell, if push comes to shove, I could even get the house cleaned up! ;-) But more likely I'll get more involved in the Dean campaign.

I'm not leaving -- DU will tombstone you but won't take you off the rolls as a member even if you ask, and who knows, perhaps if GD is temporarily split it will actually become a sane place again. So there'll always be the temptation to post as long as I'm a member, and I've never been very good about resisting temptation. But I am going to severely curtail my participation here.

The reason I'm going into all this is to tell you that the signs of either Transformation or the Death of the Party are all around us -- in the news, among the candidates and Washington Insiders, and absolutely here at DU. That is exactly what I've been seeing over the last two weeks. And for at least a while, this is the last insight I can offer my friends at DU. I can't bear to watch the DU version of Death or Transformation, but I salute those who can. Think about it, watch for more signs, and decide which side you want to be on and where you want your Party to go. It's a very polarizing time -- in the world, not just the nation or the Party. Choose wisely and well. Choose the Higher, Nobler Path whenever possible.

Remember too that transformation of the Party for the good doesn't have to mean Dean, tho for now that's the obvious current path. Many things can happen so that the good of what Dean and his campaign have created is adapted to the party as a whole (however unlikely that seems to me at the moment), but it will take MUCH MORE than merely someone other than Dean getting the nomination. If someone other than Dean gets the nom, and doesn't get it about the Dean campaign/movement, that alone will take the Party a good number of steps down the path towards Death rather than Transformation.

Choose wisely, and choose well. What would you REALLY like to see your Party become? This is a time of crisis, for which the ancient Chinese symbol combined both Danger and Opportunity. It's a time for conscious, deliberate, purposeful Choice. Seize the Opportunity, stepping lightly past the Danger. These things are yours -- and mine -- to decide.

"The history of our nation is clear: At every turn where there has been an imbalance of power, the truth questioned, or our beliefs and values distorted, the change required to restore our nation has always come from the bottom up, from our people. You have the power to reclaim our nation's destiny." -- Howard Dean


Namaste.

Eloriel

[Randi_Listener]

1. Yes.

I want to hear this. Go ahead.

[mzmolly]

3. You want to hear what?

Sorry I'm confused? :shrug: :)

[Randi_Listener]

11. I want to expound on it.

Please.

[mzmolly]

2. I wish you would stay...but, instead I may follow...

*sigh*

You have summed up what many here are feeling *quite beautifully* as usual.

To Dean :toast:
To Eloriel :toast:

Namaste.

[KaraokeKarlton]

4. The Dean haters don't even realize the damage they are causing

to their fellow democrats, their party and their country. It's sad, really, the way so many here try to alienate and divide. It reminds me of why I registered as an Independent when I could just as easily be a Democrat. It's this very negativity that turned me off to politics all my life. Howard Dean made me care, not again, but really for the first time ever. It's so sad that some here wish to smite that.

:shrug:

[K-W]

13. Frankly

If you cant get yourself to care without a politician pandering to your alientation, what good are you to anyone. Dean's pres run will end, either at the primary or at the general election, then where are you? You do realize that once in the white house he will disapoint you, because he is garunteed to. Even if he was a very progressive and activist man, which he isnt, he wont be in any position to do much of anything other than to sit in the white house and fight the republicans.

[KaraokeKarlton]

23. sigh

He hasn't "pandered" to anything and THATS why I care.

[K-W]

39. that is a joke, right?

He has very strongly pandared to people like you.

[burning bush]

84. What A Mouthfull!

With little or no idea of the import of what you wrote, you set these words to print:

"he wont be in any position to do much of anything other than to sit in the white house and fight the republicans."

Well, that would be a change for the better, and nothing like what we have been asked to accept from the supposed Dem party leaders for the last few years.

K-W? You can't beat them if you don't fight them... :)

[K-W]

104. Yah, Clinton and the republicans was one giant love fest

My point was that whoever the nominee is will be facing the same republican attack machine that was sicked on Clinton for 8 years. And like clinton, it will make it very very hard for him/her to make any ambitious moves. The fact that the democrats have had a hard time figuring out how to fight the republicans of late does not mean they aren't trying.

The 'supposed' dem party leaders are the dem party leaders. The political enviroment has changed drastically on all of them and they are trying to figure out how to adjust to it. They have different ideas and outsiders have different ideas, and as a party we have to figure out which of those ideas is best and who is best to further them.

The democrats never stopped fighting the republicans, but many of them got hoodwinked into submission by a conservative machine that has most of America hoodwinked at the moment.

[burning bush]

117. Well, you have a more generous opinion of their leadership, than I

but I will not argue my cinicism over your generosity. :)

More power to you!

[jmaier]

26. I'm not a Dean hater

In fact, I admire what his campaign has achieved and give big "KUDOS" to his supporters. I dislike any heavy candidate bashing here. Each of these individuals has something to contribute; however, there is a certain visceral reaction to the "Dean Movement" and it isn't anti-grassroots.

It's more that there is a smugness -- that other campaign grassroots supporters are insignificant and/or should just jump on the bandwagon because Dean has the largest army of ardent followers. Guess what, larger is still far short of a majority. We can support other candidates, take issue with positions and advocate without being part of some conspiracy to derail the "we're going to save the party morality train."

You see Deanie sig lines here, at Daily kos, etc. such as one "Resistence is Futile, You will be Assimilated" playing on the borg imagery. Well, that imagery is offensive. I don't want to be assimilated and playing that theme just deepens some of our resistence to this "movement." We've been around awhile and have even, surprisingly elected Democratic Presidents without Gov Dean's storm-troopers so lay off the "savior" routine, please.

There is simply no reasonable need to solidify behind a candidate just yet. I'd argue that the longer it takes to finalize a nominee the harder it is for Bush/Rove to calibrate their campaign and their message. We need to be able to reasonably explore our options. I'll happily support Dean for President but at this point, I'm simply not convinced that he will be the best President, let alone GE candidate, in the field.

As a final note, throughout the first half of his campaign, Gov Dean was quite willing to go after his opponents especially vis a vis the IWR and this did, in my opinion, great disservice to the overall Democratic position heading toward the GE. Now that he is the "presumptive" nominee, all attacks should cease? This 7th inning moralizing is another issue that causes anti-Dean discontent.

Dean supporters: if you win, please win generously. There is no other way to bring many of us into the fold energetically. Simply voting ABB isn't enough, we all will need to WORK at defeating BushCo in 2004.

[KaraokeKarlton]

42. Clarkies have the same kind of members in their ranks too

n/t

[jmaier]

66. True

both campaigns have their ardent supporters, however, it's less likely that a Clark supporter is going to tell you to give up, stop resisting, say "I am Howard Dean", you're not thinking of the good of the Democratic Party, etc.

Not that they (we) can't be obnoxious -- but we are more individually obnoxious. :-)

[KaraokeKarlton]

77. No, some Clark supporters are just as bad

You just don't see it as easily because it's not directed at you. There are the same kind of supporters for Clark, Kerry and Dean who behave this way. I've stooped to that level on plenty of occassions myself. However, every supporter of any other candidate who speaks to me and other Dean supporters (who don't deserve snarkiness) with respect gets treated the same way by me. Dean supporters would just as soon post positive things about Dean and not talk about anyone else. There are a few people who can't allow that and hijack those theads and repeatedly post the same tired old attack threads over and over again. Most of the stuff are lies, too. Dean supporters, more than any other candidates supporters here get intentionally provoked by a few supporters of Kerry and Clark, mostly a few Kerry supporters. Look at some of the names we've been called for so long and how long it was allowed before the admins finally decided to step in. And then people wonder why we flat out refuse to listen to any criticism of Dean. When you are collectively treated like shit you just stop giving a fuck what anyone else thinks.

Yes, there are some Dean supporters who goad the supporters of other candidates to get under their skin, and that's not helping, but they are no worse than plenty of others on here.

[LoneStarLiberal]

89. From A Clark Supporter

You're exactly right. There are followers of every candidate around here who have their flamethrowers set on "BBQ" for all other candidates and their supporters.

I think much of the uncivility tends to come when people who like candidate A post on a thread meant to be positive about candidate B and say "candidate B is a draft dodger/war monger/Bush spy/insert your favorite jibe here, and here is why candidate A can only be the nominee of any true Democrat." In my experience here it's these threads where you will find the most deleted posts and the most acrimony accrued over behavior. The reason this is so is simply because most of the initial threads and the interventions are based on feel-good interpretation and not facts.

What it boils down to is that people are arguing opinion which has no conclusive answer. Without a conclusive answer, the disagreements only have a matter of time before they become very personal in nature.

I'll support whomever wins financially and on voting day, but I have to say right now that it would be hard for me to support Dean beyond that, not soley because of DU, but because of my interactions with my local Dean for America group, my interactions with the Texans for Dean group, and a handful of interactions with Dean for America groups in other parts of the country. I've come away very unfavorably impressed...not with the organization or the mobilization, both of which are historic and very impressive, but rather wholly turned off and unimpressed with the institutional attitude of these organizations. The basic attitude that I have found in several of these organizations is that we are all the enemy if we are anti-Dean; it lumps anyone who is supporting another Democrat into the same camp as Republicans. It's an attitude that comes from the very top down through the campaign and it's one that is going to poison things beyond reconciliation if there isn't some attempt to mend some fences instead of continually busting through them on the way to the possible nomination.

I always remain mindful that not all Dean people are like this, just like not all Clark people are like our worst examples.

[KaraokeKarlton]

100. Just liking someone else better doesn't make you "anti-Dean"

Sorry you didn't have a good experience with the groups in your area. I'd imagine that Texans probably take thing pretty serious since they've had to endure Bush longer than the rest of us. Maybe there's an added desperation that comes into play there.

Dean supporters aren't open to criticism of Dean at this point, at least not on this site. But honestly, who can blame them after being called everything from idiots and cult members to nazis.

There's something non-Dean supporters on this site really need to understand. To many people here DU is like a family. I am positive that's how Eloriel has felt. Over the past two days or so A LOT of DUers who don't support Dean has been kicking the shit out of his supporters on here, brutally. The final straw was that "Stop Dean" thread that was allowed to stay up and how many DUers were defending and making excuses for the behavior it encouraged. Dean supporters here began organizing and setting up a place to go where they don't have to put up with the abuse they get here. And yes, it has been abuse. So people don't like our candidate. They don't have to like him, but they have NO right to call us names, belittle us and treat us with intentional disrespect and disdain.

I didn't mean to direct any of this stuff at you specifically, I just got on a roll and kept writing. Please don't take anything I said to mean that I think you are part of the problem, because I don't even remember posting to you before.

Okay, I'm getting off my soapbox now...

[Zomby Woof]

44. BRILLIANT!

Thank you. You said so much of what I have been hammering home for weeks.

Unfortunately the truth and sweet reason will get you flamed by the Borg.

You can't argue with certain mindsets. Not civilly, not rationally, not in any way, shape, or form.

But thank you. I needed to read at least one sane post in GD tonight. :thumbsup:

[windansea]

61. flamed by the borg

perfect!!

[DemBones DemBones]

83. Excellent post! Smugness is not a good organizing tactic.

Perhaps your voice will finally get through to some DUers. I hope it will.

[blm]

149. Perfectly stated.

Thank you from all of us who could not express it as well.

[KoKo]

36. OFGS! She's talking about the Democratic Party ....NOT Dean!! READ!

Don't any of you read the post before you go off? :nuke:

[Julien Sorel]

47. Nonsense.

That post could hardly be more about Dean if it was nothing more than the words 'Howard Dean' repeated about 700 times. There were a few insults thrown in for the usual suspects, but the post was essentially a lament that not everyone sees Dean as some kind of savior.

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KaraokeKarlton]

52. She's talking about both

It's the pig pile on Dean mentality running rampant on here and it is alienating Dean supporters. The "stop Dean at all costs" mentaility is DIVISIVE, and that is what motivated her to start this thread.

[Romberry]

126. Thank you!

Nice post. It will fall on deaf ears but nice post.

[reknewcomer]

5. It is really very simple

America is not ready for a far left candidate. Now is not the time. Maybe later but not now. If we want control then we will need to capture the middle and then move left very very slowly. To deny this fact will only lead to bitterness and it'll end in tears.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

6. Please tell me what is "far left" about Dean

I am not a Dean supporter but please describe EXACTLY what you percieve to be "far left" about him.

[reknewcomer]

16. America does not buy his screed against the Iraq war

Between that and his promise to raise taxes he is toast. To the swing and middle that is considered far left. When I speak here of far left it is in terms of the perception of those that will dictate the election outcome. My personal politic matters not and it's all about compromise to get the least worse person elected.

[thebigidea]

17. who's this "America" you're on first name terms with?

Good thing we have you to give us the pulse of America, huh?

So who isn't "far left"?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

25. I really don't think you CAN speak for anyone but yourself

but nice try. BTW, CLinton said he would raise taxes and got elected...by the radical middle :D

[reknewcomer]

43. The radical middle was frustrated with GWB and Perot helped

That is not the case this time.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

67. Fair enough, but you still have not proven your original point

about Dean i.e. that he is the "far left." Furthermore, nothing is handled yet in Iraq. That is not to say that I hope it continues to be a mess..it is to say it is NOT clearly resolved at this point.

This is why I am glad the primary is long....let people hear a RANGE of ideas...I don't understand why some are so threatened by that notion.

[reknewcomer]

80. I like Dean - he did fairly well here in Vermont

I can't prove anything except my opinion. Dean still has a chance but he need to lighten up on Iraq and insure middle and lower incomes will get a tax cut.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

94. Actually, after seeing his advisory committee today,

I was more impressed than I have been on the foreign policy issue. Benjamin Barber has written something like 14 books, several in depth on the middle east. Morton Haplerin happens to be one of the better, more liberal members of the Council on Foreign Relations, and one that has widely addressed in interviews the behavior of corporations on topics such as the revolving door between regulatory agencies, trade and lobbyists...world wide.

Anthony Lake can hardly be considered a far fringed leftist.

As far as taxes go, no matter WHO gets elected taxes will go up or America will decay. That's really the end of the story. The only question is are they being divvied up equitably. From all appearances, the answer is NO!

[Julien Sorel]

118. Clinton ran on a platform that included middle class tax cuts.

[unfrigginreal]

34. Dean is bringing new blood into the Party

and not you, the pundits, or all of the Know-it-alls on DU can legitimately claim to know where they fall on the political spectrum. This campaign is more about representing those that feel their votes haven't been seriously considered then it is about supporting an ideology. I think we'll find plenty of support in the "swing and middle".

[Kanola]

50. Agree with you

That is what is frustrating me about the posts that are anti Dean here. They just don't get it. The DEM party has made poor choices in splintering the party up in the past and it KEEPS LOSING! If the DEM party really wants to win it cannot kill and butcher it's own.

I have not been here as most of you but I am very discourged by what I have read and witnessed.

[K-W]

62. It seems to me that he is more interested in bringing new blood

into his campaign than the party per se.

[unfrigginreal]

78. Name one other candidate that has asked his supporters

to donate to Democratic Congressional candidates.

[Julien Sorel]

You mean like Dean did to help himself in Iowa?

How selfless.

[unfrigginreal]

98. So, you'd prefer he not help Democratic candidates

Brilliant as usual, bub.

[Julien Sorel]

102. No, I'd prefer it if his followers didn't pretend

he was doing what he does out of some dedication to the party (to which he's never donated a dime, iirc), than out of his own self-centered ambition. But nice try at a straw man. Maybe next time you'll catch me when I'm alseep and actually get away with it.

[burning bush]

99. Flame bait!

How could you pretend to know such a thing? You have no evidence of this, and you simply open the door for an inflamatory response.

Is that what you want? Do you want a flamewar?

[K-W]

106. Im sorry, someone confused Dean attracting Dean supporters

with Dean attracting people to the party. I dont think that is flame bait in the slightest. I would really like to hear someone explain how these new blood people wont simply become dissalusioned again when the Dean 'movement' is over. How exactly they will be turned into active members of the democratic party when they werent before.

[burning bush]

115. Well, they wont stay if they are treated like outsiders

kool aid drinkers, cultists, lefties, righties, outies, whateveries...

Treat them like Dems, with respect, and a modicum of trust.

That seems like something obvious... :|

[cprise]

54. Thank you

That was a good outline on where we need to raise public awareness.

Yes- They change their mind you know.

[burning bush]

93. I wouldn't be surprised if your idea of Dean's Position on Iraq was faulty

Maybe you could elaborate on what it is that you believe Dean's "far left" position amounts to?

This is the kind of agravation that Dean supporters face. In one post-Dean is bashed because he's "Far-Left," then in another post, Dean is bashed because he is too conservative.

What it amounts to, it seems, is that Dean's detractors do not have a clear understanding of his positions and goals for the future. That in itself is understandable, Dean is a new face on the national scene. What is hard to follow is that many Dean detractors do not deire a clearunderstanding of his positions and goals, nor the methods by which he would achive thos goals.

I think that the reason (if this is true at all) that Rove may want a Dean opposition is because he understands our party mentality. Rove may not think Dean is a pushover, he probably thinks that the DEM vOTERS are pushovers, and wont be sufficiently disciplined so as to set aside petty differences and vote in harmony and unison.

Hell, we can't even be civil to each other.

:

[not systems]

148. Wake up.

Most "americans" would slice the flesh off Saddams bones
with a thanksgiving carving knife and roast it on a new gas grill.

Or at least like a president who would...

That is your point right?

I for one think we are not that vicious and need a person
like Dean who appeals to the better side of human nature.

[mzmolly]

7. Far left? Far right?

depends on who you ask these days.

[K-W]

18. Dont buy into that bs

America is very ready for a left candidate. America is a left leaning country. If you ask americans about thier values etc, guess what, by and large they want to help poor people. The dont mind paying taxes for programs. They want everyone to have health care. They want good education for all.

Americans are liberal, theyve just been convinced that being liberal is unrealistic or unpatriotic, or whatever. We are in the throws of a conservative movement in politics. They swept America up and have them confused and alienated from the process. America can be ready for a liberal and soon, its just a matter of us taking back our country and not getting caught up in the propaganda that says we cant do it.

[no name no slogan]

19. In other words,...

follow the same failed strategies of our party leaders and presidential nominees for the last two decades by staying toward the "center"?

Let's look at what that's gotten us: we lost the US House and Senate, lost more governorships, and lost control of more state houses, too. Our "victories" for president in 1992 & 1996 got less than a majority of the vote, and we won because of a popular 3rd party movement that split the right-wing vote. We barely won in 2000 (no thanks to the 300,000 Florida Democrats who voted for Shrub), but it was close enough that it was stolen by ShrubCo.

Contrary to what the conventional wisdom says, Americans are still quite liberal on many issues, especially economic ones: 60% support a universal single-payer health insurance system, most support more government control over big business, and also believe the government has a moral obligation to protect and care for those less fortunate than themselves.

The only people who believe we need more "moderation" are either those who believe the lies the mass media keeps feeding them, or those who vote Republican.

I would highly recommend you read the book "Thieves in High Places" by Jim Hightower, as he has a whole chapter devoted to the so-called "conservatism" of Americans. It's definately an eye-opener.

[jonnyblitz]

27. far left? I wish....

If you think Dean is far left I dont even DARE ask where you fall on the political spectrum...

[JohnKleeb]

38. If Dean is too far left for this country

Anyone wanna fly me out :(?

[cprise]

48. And just who is far left?

Are you trying to tell us that Dem candidates are advocating a planned economy and the elimination of private estates and banks?

People need to realize that the lack of a substantial center-left platform these days is a big factor behind America alienating herself from the world.

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[VT70]

156. You have to be kidding me!

Dean is not left at all, he's a DINO. Look at what he did in Vermont.

[Julien Sorel]

8. How odd.

I saw 'Death throes of the Democratic Party' in the subject line, and immediately thought of Howard Dean. :shrug:

Good luck with whatever you do.

[mzmolly]

12. Yes, we need a Nixon, Reagan, Bush 1 voter to save the party

:eyes: Pathetic!

[CWebster]

131. No

a Goldwater.

[KaraokeKarlton]

14. And why am I not surprised that you are the first one here

ready, willing and anxious to take another swing?

You should strive to be more like the man in your avatar as well as conduct yourself in a way that isn't an embarassment to other Clark supporters.

[Julien Sorel]

30. As always, attack the messenger. Hell, attack the messenger's

candidate, for that matter. As I have repeatedly stated, my attitude towards Dean is because of Dean and Dean alone, not because of Clark. Clark has nothing to do with it. It's folks like yourself, and the other person who posted who, lacking real arguments, have to try to drag irrelevancies into discussions as a means of cover, who make Dean such an easy target, in fact.

And as for how one should conduct oneself, the thread starting post took jabs at Clark, Clark supporters, Skinner, and Pitt, all to the degree that the rules here allow, and the poster has taken more than her share of jabs at both Clark and Clark supporters, calling them Republicans, and ignorant, and newbies, and infiltrators, telling them they weren't welcome here, and a host of other low-class insults. Why I should refrain from making an honest statement (because Dean is what came to mind when I read the subject line) in reply to such a person, given their history, is a mystery to me.

[KaraokeKarlton]

60. Do you even realize

that every complaint you make about Dean supporters applies just as much to your own behavior?

Probably not.

[Julien Sorel]

91. You are welcome to find one post where I have ever

said Deanites are not welcome here. You are welcome to find one post where I have ever attacked the person instead of the argument. You are welcome to demonstrate that I believe Clark is without faults. You are welcome to find one post where I have ever lied to smear Dean or any other candidate. I could go on, but you get the idea. When you are able to do these things, then you can accurately compare me to the typical Deanite; otherwise you're just shouting into the wind.

[KaraokeKarlton]

103. Oh God, you can't be serious

n/t

[Julien Sorel]

108. In other words, you looked, but couldn't find.

Shocking.

[KaraokeKarlton]

113. No, I can't search posts

and I don't deem answering your question to be worth my time to scour threads without having the ability to use a search engine to do it.

Nice try, though.

[Beaker]

9. The decline of trade unions killed us.

the sense of everyone working together for a common goal turned into 'every man for himself'.

it's sad.

[reknewcomer]

The proverbial "common goal"

That is a nobel goal but it will never happen with the polarization I have seen here and elsewhere. Common does not exist without compromise and I have seen little of it. The extremists on both sides will not allow it to happen. Take hunting for instance...the hate of it dispalyed here does not allow for "common goal". Same for gun ownership by law abiding Americans...little "common goal" there. Even something as harmless and fun as snowmobiling here in Vermont has enough "environmentalists" condeming it totally that many of my Dem friends have sworn off voting Dem because they resent the attacks against them by "hard core lefties". The "common goals" are far too uncommon nowdays.

[Beaker]

46. snowmobiling isn't necessarily harmless and fun-

for the people who just want a little peace and quiet for starters.
I would say that there's not much that can or should be done about using them on private property, but they should be out of the national parks, IMHO.

[reknewcomer]

69. Tell it to Dean

He insured we could snowmobile on thousands of square miles of public land here in Vermont. That is one of many issues I agreed with him on.

[Beaker]

82. and just one more reason for me not to support him.

the list is getting pretty long...

Has Ralph Nader said for sure whether or not he's running?

[reknewcomer]

96. Welcome to the fringe minority

The anti-loggers and anti-snowmobilers are not welcome here in Vermont. Your loss.

[KaraokeKarlton]

105. lol...you crack me up

Hadn't anyone better try to come to Vermont and take away our guns and snowmobiles...they'll get their asses kicked. ;)

[Beaker]

111. oh well.

how's about we'll just send you all some acid rain instead then?...how's that "great lake" champlain doin' these days, anyway?

BTW- I tried snow-mobiling on several different occasions, and I genuinely tried to like it...but overall, it was always a very much less than enjoyable experience...i prefer snow-shoeing or cross-country skiing for winter wilderness access.

[oostevo]

10. I'm Sorry for Your Departure

I regret your decision to leave, but I (and I'm sure everyone else here) wish you the best of luck in whatever course you should chose.

[okieinpain]

15. just gave another 10 bucks to dean. hey what can I say, I find all of the

postings here amusing and some times thought provoking. but in the end, I always follow my gut, and my gut is telling me DEAN.

[windansea]

20. another thinly veiled NBD post

"Remember too that transformation of the Party for the good doesn't have to mean Dean, tho for now that's the obvious current path. Many things can happen so that the good of what Dean and his campaign have created is adapted to the party as a whole (however unlikely that seems to me at the moment)"

[realFedUp]

21. Thanks Eloriel

for your heart and gut felt impressions.
Entering DU lately has been like getting ready
to joust, not to enjoy.

[Dookus]

22. buh bye

[slinkerwink]

33. buh bye

[Dookus]

37. ooh!

Are you leaving, too?

[slinkerwink]

49. nope, thought you were leaving

and btw, I'm still pissed off at how you treated me just because I leaked what happened to Dr.Romano early.

[Dookus]

53. lol...

awww. Poor thing.

Anyway, you learned a valuable lesson about time zones.

And way to carry a grudge!

[YellowDawgDemocrat]

24. Superb Articulation on your part

Not much anyone can add to your expressions. We've allowed ourselves to become bitter, angry and short sighted...paranoid, even.

We've become a loose group of angry people united in only one way...the defeat of Bush.

At some point our party has to address some serious introspective concerns that are currently lost in passion and anger. The latter being a burden that can consume reason and logic. Make no mistake, passion and anger can be excellent motivational emotions, to that extent, fine. We could use a guy like Mario Cuomo about now, heading up the DNC and communicating the proper perspective to the population.
Instead, we have Terry...a perfect example of everything that is wrong with our party.

If Dean has no other appeal, at least he recognizes the need to send Terry packing.

[KoKo]

28. Your post says what many of us have been feeling. And, yesterday's event

and Skinner's posting about it almost had me leaving DU. I hope his post was because the news was surprising to most of us, and we were expected to get a break about Gore's announcement, Baker's trip, Halliburton's overcharges and PNAC/Bush infighting. I hope Skinner was just having a bad day.

The tone here about candidates has been demoralizing. Issues we face as Americans not just Dems are getting pushed under the weight of the one line posts about Candidates and petty one-line answers, and flames.

Maybe splitting the Board will work and we can start talking about Corporate graft, greed, and the dehumanizing of our "cultureless" society where there isn't much left in kindness to even our fellow travelers who are on the fringes because of "Selection 2000" and the rise of the RW PNACers/Gingrich/Falwell/Limbaughites.

If we can't discuss issues besides candidates then we are nothing but a "chat room," or a "posting board" for candidate blurbs.

Let's hope this will change, and some of us will feel that sense of belonging here like we once did. Especially for those of us who are isolated in areas where there aren't any fellow Dems who share our feelings about whats going on. We are trying to change things here, and I see how much good has come from DU members who've independently spun off and are working for change. Take Back the Media (symbolman and Stranger), Will Pitt come to mind first, but look at Beach Buckeye with his radio show in Florida with Jan Michael's help, jmach who ran for Dem office in Fla., AWD and others who are going to run as Dems in their States and so many of our talented DU'ers who have Blogs or creative projects spreading the Dem cause. So many, I don't have time to list them all.

These folks were DU'ers who got inspiration from each other. And, Eloriel we shouldn't lose you who have worked so hard with Dem Activist on the Georgia BBV contibuting so much time to helping Bev Harris and your own "Timeline Work" trying to help newbies with a sense of History of Viet Nam and the Dem Party.

Take a break. And, check your PM Box.

cheers. (and take care of that broken hand):-)'s

koko

[LizW]

29. Wow.

Eloriel, you said exactly what I've been thinking and feeling.

Thanks. :hug:

[liberalhistorian]

31. While I understand what you're saying,

and I'm also fearful for the future of the party, I think sometimes it takes things like this to galvanize and energize a party and get them off their ass to do the hard work of grassroots organizing and building from the ground up. Because we have, indeed, grown "fat and lazy" as a party since the New Deal and taken too much for granted. And now we're paying dearly for it. And we're going to have to go through the "refiner's fire", so to speak, before we can start coming back with the strength I know we have.

But, you know what? That's what the repukes did, all those years they were in the wilderness as a party while we were the majority slowing losing our way because we were taking our support and control for granted. About thirty years ago, they began concentrating on grassroots organizing and getting involved from the ground up, beginning with offices like school boards and building up from there. That's how they were finally able to gain control and support they way they have been.

And THAT is what we must do once again. We must get back to our roots as a party and begin the hard work of rebuilding from the ground up, from the smallest towns in the most rural areas to the mid-size cities in the smaller states to the larger cities to the suburbs to the most blighted inner cities. THAT is what must be done, and I think it can be done and will be done.

[KoKo]

45. Great Post, "liberal" and I agree we are in the Wilderness now.....but

we have a chance to start over. With all the talented DU'ers here, we can do it. We WILL do it. Not as soon as we'd hope....but it will happen. :-)'s

[UTUSN]

32. This Is........."Democratic"...........Forum, No? n/t

[knight_of_the_star]

35. A'Laena Sar Eloriel

May the wind always fill your sails and may you never lose sight of the star that guides your course.

Although I have (and still do) disagree with you, you are one of fierce and fiery spirit, eloquent in word and fell in deed. In whatever it is you choose to do, may the Gods of mercy on Bush and his minions, for I know that you most certainly will not!

[La_Serpiente]

40. If you remember anything that I did in the past that you found offensive

then I am truly sorry.

The poster you are speaking of has left DU as a result of the outrage that not only Dean supporters voiced - but from other campaigns as well.

But I sense that is not the only reason you are leaving DU. It is true, there is a multitude of factors going on not just here, but outside on the campaign trail as well. The Osama Bin Laden ad was one of the worst examples of campaign advertising I have ever seen. Although some people may disagree, it is the use of his image and its association with Dean that was dispicable. If anything, it wanted to strike fear into those that are good hearted and good natured.

It also sets a horrible precedent. That means we - the Democrats - would have been the ones to open the 9/11 floodgates.

I always felt the primary was a time to debate the ideas vigorously so we could go into the general election strong. I think it is fact that we would have honest disagreements about issues.

I have also had problems when people brought up issues of electability. I don't like it when other people tell me my candidate cannot win so he/she should just drop out. It is a disservice to the party and undermines the primary process by making us only focus on the candidacy - not the issues.

I hope that the Spirit of the Democratic party will bring you back - hopefully when we choose a nominee next summer. If it doesn't call you, then I will understand why. But keep this in mind - you are always welcome here at DU and we will never forget your thoughtful posts and warm words for us.

Cheers
La_Serpiente :-)

[slinkerwink]

41. I'm sorry to see you go, but it's just DU----a political chat board

where everyone's a political pundit ;-)

Take a few days to relax and work for the Dean campaign, and we'll be waiting for you back here.

[KoKo]

55. slinkerwink, for many of us DU isn't just a "political chat board." It's

serious and much has been accomplished here. I don't know how long you've been a DU'er, but you should know that. :-)'s

[economic justice]

64. Actually, it's not

Much is accomplished a lot of places. But, really, it IS just a discussion board. Taking it seriously is different from taking it TOO seriously.

[bpilgrim]

70. just a message board...

a message board just by it's self is a great deal not to mention the components it's made up of and the REVOLUTIONARY way it is networked by a message board, especially a networked message board can provide CRITICAL, REAL TIME, global information in the click of a mouse, that is so damn CRITICAL the us military invested MILLIONS and YEARS of research into inventing it... but it is still, even much more...

but it is like anything else you take away what you put into it :hi:

peace

[economic justice]

73. No question....but....

Is it REALLY worth getting bummed out over? Opinions you don't agree with? Needing constant approval for your particular point of view? And, btw, I think most people put far too much self importance into their participation at this MESSAGE BOARD. (I really do believe that.)

[bpilgrim]

87. this is a POLITICAL msg board

which is often about matters of life/death. war/peace, love/hate, order/disorder

these are very serious topics and people who engae here are often passionate and engaged in real life in these very issues so don't be suprised when someone who values what they are doing a great deal to be offended or upset when others devalue their efforts.

peace

[knight_of_the_star]

85. We get a lot accomplished here though

I seem to remember the Committees of Correspondance during the American Revolution being groups that discussed how to break free of the British Empire. Look what became of that.

[economic justice]

63. Agreed, thank you

You really summed up my feelings very succinctly. It's just a *discussion board* ferchrissakes! Big deal if you don't agree with this or that! Can't you just post your own opinion and not take it all to heart with such anger and depression? When it gets like that, yes, leave DU for awhile! Go to the park, have a picnic, read to kids at a school, join a club, play a sport, buy flowers for yourself, soak in the tub, watch old movies.........escape for awhile if the opinions depress you. But, though I rarely agree with you,Eloriel, I would hope you would stay at DU and contribute to the discussion, and remember, that's ALL it is. Good luck!

[Droopy]

56. Very eloquent

Don't stray too far. When I think of people on this board, your name is one of the more recognizeable to me. You really are a good writer. You ought to consider doing something with that talent if you aren't already.

Regarding this death of the party, I'm not sure I agree. It sounds like you are more involved than I am and have been around politics longer, but I still think we've got a lot of fight left in us.

Your candidate takes a lot of heat around here and maybe dealing with all of that negativity has got you tired. Well do what you got to do. Hopefully you'll drop in from time to time and grace us with some more of that eloquent prose.

[unfrigginreal]

57. I hope it's just a short break Eloriel

You are the second longtime DU'er, today, that I've learned would be curtailing their time here. I also received a mail message from another Dean supporter that said many of the same things you talk about in your post.

Please consider something that Dean has led the way on in this campaign. In the face of opposition speak loudly and in sharp contrast. Thanks for the wonderful posts that you have made here and I wish all the best for you.

[tlcandie]

58. Eloriel .. best to you!!!

So sorry that this thread didn't follow along the lines of your post about transcending/transformation and such :cry:

May you be free to seek your heart's desire...and I honor your spirit as well!

Thank you for your contributions. Your spirit will be missed as well as insights!

[hedda_foil]

59. This is the most profound and moving piece you have ever written, Eloriel.

And I'm afraid I agree with you. I don't know how much longer I'll be able to stay here either. I'm working far too hard in the real world for my candidate, my party and my country to devote my time and effort to countering the proliferation of dirty politics on this forum. It's appalling and mean-spirited. A constant stream of negative push-polling of selected memes by Democrats against Democrats. Vigorous campaigning is one thing. Fighting hard for your candidate is critical. But fighting dirty in your own party when we are facing the most critical election in the life of this country is abhorent to me.

Are we are trying to reclaim our democracy or playing a game here? For all too many it seems it's no more than dirty politics as usual, gamesmanship and oneupmanship for its own sake. Bashing the elected President is just par for the course for some. I find it repellent. Lying about and misquoting one of the best candidates we've ever had (and I've been participating in politics since the '50's) is accepted and condoned here now.

To those of you who approve of this sort of behavior I can only echo Joseph Welch when he asked Senator McCarthy: "Have you no decency, sir? Have you no decency at all?"

We fully expect as much from the Bushites and can deal with them. We can deal with this sort of attack from Democrats as well. But it is so unworthy of DUers. So destructive of the party. So counterproductive. And so damn Rove-like that it makes me physically ill to see it coming from those I have respected and admired.

It makes me sick. And it sickens me that this is what has become of DU in the past weeks. This is not the home that has nurtured me and saved me from despair. This is not the DU that has taught me and honed my political understanding. This is not DU at all.

That so many cannot realize that, by so dividing us, they are contributing to the death of the party rather than to the win they hope for is the worst cut of all.

I wish you wisdom. I wish you well.

Namaste

hedda

[opihimoimoi]

79. Well, Leave if you must, I wish the Best. But for now, I am staying.

The fight too important, the cause too great.

The Pubs who come to divide have done their task all too well. We have lost more than a few good posters to their handiwork.

But I liken them to blind occupants on a lifeboat who are told to drill holes in the hull. The Pub know not what they do. In their accomplishment, we will all suffer. Including their Masters.

They so ignorant, they too don;t know it. Denial, then Anger, they reject the notion of Peace instead embracing confrontation... after all, it is far more "exciting" to dominate/control than drink mai tais by the swimming pool with village people.

[Scott Lee]

68. Mark this one well.

As a confessed newbie on DU, to comment on something like this is almost like walking into a family funeral as a complete stranger. But here I go anyway.

Eloriel has impressed me since I showed up at DU. This is someone who has obviously been around, been in and out of the fight. Someone who probably has more than a few battle scars to show for their effort.

Eloriel's post is one of the most eloquent expressions of the current hard truth I have ever read.

Regardless of the short time I have been here, I absolutely share Eloriel's observation of a near whiplash change of attitude here regarding Howard Dean. Yes, I'm a Dean supporter if there was ever a question about that. I'm not still wet behind the ears, either. The first presidential election I voted in was 1980. I have seen interparty vying for nominations. I know it can get rough. But what has happened with Mr. Dean really goes beyond the pale, and I don't know really what to attribute it to. Ego? Frustration mixed with fear? The Establishment deterioration of the Democratic Party? I don't know. But it's there alright. And I'll be damned if I've ever seen such mindless, dogged hate of a candidate ever within their own party.

Saddam's capture, in any thinking person's eyes, won't really amount to much in the big scheme of things. But it's reverberations around DU are apparent. Skinner's little missive on the post-Saddam Capture Dean campaign sounded for all the world like a grunt from a person being kicked so hard in the balls that they slouch back to the cave to figure out how to recover. Retreat. Fear. Bow to the public perception rather than try and educate the public to a better view.

With all due respect to Skinner, it was a disgusting sight.

Be that as it may, these events at DU are the best evidence that Eloriel is correct. The Democratic Party hasn't learned a damn thing over the last 10 years. It is the party of fear, of political popism, of being led around by republicans that still frame the debate and the issues, forever leaving the Democrats behind and playing defensive catch-up-ball.

For what it's worth Eloriel, my best wishes to whatever you do in the meantime. Any candidate you work for should be greatly honored to have you on their team. And DU will be a little less, in my mind, with your absence.

[Imajika]

71. Eloriel.....

You do realize ofcourse that some people, including myself, believe a Dean nomination may well be the more immediate cause of the death of the Democratic party as a viable force in American politics.

I personally like Howard Dean in many ways. I think he is charismatic, aggressive and comes accross as a straight shooter. I will vote for Howard Dean for President, and I will encourage as many people I can to do the same.

Saying that, I personally believe Dean is very likely to not only lose to Bush in the general election - but go down to such a defeat that it costs the Democratic Party enough seats in the Senate to prevent, for all practical purposes, filibusters (which are our only avenue to stop the most aggregious of GOP legislation and judicial nominations).

Ask yourself. And I mean really ask yourself. Don't think about the opinion on DU. Don't think about the opinion of the Democratic base. Ask yourself honestly. Do you believe America is ready to vote for an anti-war candidate (anti-Iraq war at minimum) who promises to raise taxes (even on the middle class) and backs gay marriage (civil unions) in the November general election. Do you really believe that a candidate primarily identified with these positions can beat George Bush? If you really believe that a majority of Americans are willing to vote for these policies, I'd like to know why because I've seen no evidence of it. I'm not talking about the majority of voters in San Francisco, California or Madison, Wisconsin, or the majority of the people you know, or the majority of people you communicate with on the Internet - I'm talking about a majority of American voters throughout the nation

If you really believe a majority of Americans will vote for Dean over Bush that is fine, but I would tell you that I don't think you have an accurate feel for the US electorate.

I have a terrible fear of what is coming in 04' if our Party marches on its current course and nominates Dean. I am fairly confident that Bush will annhilate Dean in a general election. I want Bush OUT of office and would settle for Lieberman if I thought he would win. As it is I am a far more moderate, even conservative, Democrat than most here on DU - but I think for the well being of our party and the good of the nation that we need to think long and hard before we put up a candidate that holds the kinds of positions I've seen no evidence whatsoever that a majority of Americans will vote for.

Saddam's capture does matter. People here can repeat the mantra over and over that it doesn't, but at the end of the day it puts a feather in Bush's cap. Junior is going to be out there claiming that he got rid of a terrible dictator, one that most Americans recall Bush I and Clinton bombing repeatedly. Dean is never going to be able to sell the majority of the American public on the notion that the USA is no safer with the removal of Hussein from power in Iraq. No matter what anyone says, the majority of Americans think of Hussein as a "bad arab" whom we had already previously fought a war with and failed to kill off or capture at that time, and will be glad Bush marched in and got him.

I haven't been attacking Dean. I have even conceded that in many ways he is my favorite candidate even though I disagree with him on many issues. But I wanna win. I don't want the party to nominate a candidate whom winds up getting crushed. How does this benefit us. Did McGovern's defeat benefit the Democratic party? How about Mondale's asswhipping? Do you think if Dean loses the party will turn even further to the left? No, it will go dramatically to the right.

At the end of the day I will faithfully support any candidate the Democratic party might realistically nominate (including Howard Dean), but I can't stress enough that I do NOT believe that this is the time to nominate someone percieved as a far left candidate.

Imajika

[dobak]

97. Well said! - n/t

[burning bush]

114. Imajika, lets set the record straight

(warning, somewhat lengthy post)

Your implication is that people won't vote for Dean because, in your opinion, he--

1) Is Anti-War (Anti-Iraq war, at a minimum)
2) Promises to raise taxes (even on the middle class)
3) Backs gay marriage (civil unions)

Is that correct?

Actually, whether your opinion is correct or not is a critical point. The only way to learn of your correctness, is to compare what you say about Dean, to what Dean says about himself.

Let's read what Dean himself has to say. Words, and how you use them, are so important...

WAR
Your view:
Dean is anti-war, or at the very least, against the war in Iraq

Dean says:
I supported the first war in Iraq because one of our allies was invaded, and we had a responsibility to defend them. I supported the war in Afghanistan; 3,000 of our people were murdered. I thought we had a right to defend the US.

But in the case of Iraq, the president told us that Al Qaida and Saddam Hussein were about to make a deal. The president told us that Iraq was buying uranium from Africa. That wasn't true. They told us that the Iraqis were about to get atomic weapons. That turned out not to be true. They told us they knew exactly where the weapons of mass destruction were, right around Tikrit and Baghdad. That turned out to be false as well.

As commander in chief of the US military, I will never hesitate to send troops anywhere in the world to defend the US. But I will never send our sons and daughters to a foreign country in harm's way without telling the truth to the American people about why they're going there. And that judgment needs to be made first, not afterwards.
Source: Democratic Primary Debate, Albuquerque New Mexico Sep 4, 2003

*******************************

You make Dean sound like a dove. The guy is a hawk who would have supported the Iraq war if it were not based on lies designed to push us into unilateral action. Dean obviously doesn't like being lied to. I think America can relate!

*******************************
*******************************


TAXES
Your view:
Dean promises (Isn't he nasty for making such a promise?) to raise taxes on the middle class.

Dean says:
The middle class never got a tax cut for us to defend. Their college tuition went up. Their property taxes went up. Fire and police and first response services are going down and local people are having to pay for that. We ought to get rid of the entire Bush tax cut. It is bad for the economy and it has not created one job.
Source: Debate at Pace University in Lower Manhattan Sep 25, 2003

*******************************

You make Dean sound like a tax and spend Democrat, straight from a Republican's worst nightmare. The guy actually is a fiscal tightwad who recognizes that the middle class got screwed, and wants to right that wrong. I think America can relate!

*******************************
*******************************


GAY MARRIAGES
Your view:
Dean supports Gay marriages.

Dean says:
(in a recent interview on Capital Report:
AM: How about gay marriage? That’s something you supported in Vermont—

HD: I’ve never supported gay marriage.

AM: Well, civil unions.

HD: Well, it’s not the same thing. There’s a big difference.

AM: Okay. Explain—...

HD: ...Every American ought to have equal rights under the law. Ours does. Our bill says marriage is between a man and a woman—but same-sex couples may enter into civil unions, which allows them the same rights that I have: hospital visitation, health insurance, inheritance rights; the same rights that I have. Vermont is the only state in the country where everyone is equal under the law and I’m proud of that.

AM: And you would say that in every state—

HD: No, I don’t believe that’s the federal government’s business. What I favor is federal recognition of civil unions, but I don’t favor forcing Minnesota and Alabama to have civil unions if they don’t want to. Same reason I think the Defense of Marriage Act was unconstitutional—that is not a prerogative of the federal government. It’s a prerogative of the states.

*******************************

You make Dean sound as if he'll be some as a challenge to "traditional values," when Dean has positioned himself ingeniously. dean can say whatever he wants, and gays know that because of the bill Dean signed, they can enjoy the same legal rights in Vermont as hetero couples. However, Dean can emphaticall, and truthfully, state that he believes marriage is between a man and a woman, and the Federal government should keep the hell out.

This states rights attitude, which spills over to Dean's position on many issues, like Guns, taxes, etc, will play big for Dean in the South, and everywhere where people feel that the Federal Gvt does notunderstand their community standards. I think America can really relate!

*******************************
*******************************

So, my take is that if I want to findout where Dean sits on the issues, I'll find out from Dean, not from someone with an agenda to defeat Dean.

Of course, Republicans will have the same agenda. It's just that we don't normally here your style of complaint coming from a fellow Dem, during the Dem primary season. As of yet, Dean hasn't spent much time defending himself on these issues. Do you honestly think that this fiesty, scrappy, North Easterner, with attitude to spare and the cojones to fight back, will let those issues remain unclear once the opponent is a Republican?

You have got to be joking!

Dean will take care of himself quite nicely, fighting as a Democrat, positioning himself in contrast to Bush, not in comparrison to the Republican neoconservative minority.

You either underestimate Dean's appeal, or you purposefully ignore said appeal, because you have an agenda to promote, that agenda being another Dem candidate whom you prefer, for whatever reasons.

That's fine! :) I encourage you to follow your heart, or your intellect (whichever you feel more attuned).

Let's just not pretend that you are an objective observer, ok?

[TheDonkey]

72. DEAN must be stopped!

.. and if that's the truth he will be thanks to our democratic primary system.

I'm a big Kerry fan but if he cannot win the primary then he just wasn't popular enough to the masses and that is what matters. People have been screaming about how Dean cannot possible win but if he is beating out such strong oppenants like Kerry, Edwards, and especially Clark then he's got a REAL good chance of going up against shurb.

I think some of the anti-dean hatred is getting out of hand and even though I have/will be negative about Dean's issues and speeches I must understand that if he wins and is popular it's for GOOD reason, and not some hypnotic fluke.

If Dean, Clark, Kerry, to Mosley Braun goes up against bush we have a damn good chance at beating him and after february you'll see the party unite like PB&J.

[Scott Lee]

154. A Kerry fan that gets it. Thank you.

"I'm a big Kerry fan but if he cannot win the primary then he just wasn't popular enough to the masses and that is what matters. People have been screaming about how Dean cannot possible win but if he is beating out such strong oppenants like Kerry, Edwards, and especially Clark then he's got a REAL good chance of going up against shurb."

And there it is. Perfectly spoken. It all gets down to the support, guys. It is sheer folly to put up any less than the MOST supported candidate as the nominee. When in a race, would you give an iota LESS than your best effort?

[camero]

74. Even in our darkest days

There is still a ray of sunshine. Go for that ray. Because after the storm ends the sun comes back out. Night will turn to day.

And just when things seem bleakest, we find the courage in our heart to bring forth our greatest strenghts.

I hope you don't stay gone long, we'll miss your posts.

[WillyT]

75. Yeah E... I Hear What You're Sayin !!!

Every now and again I find myself tunin into Rush Limpballs to see what the other side is talkin about. (That, and the fact that I work around machines that interrupt just about every other radio signal at certain times.) And the Bloviator In Chief refers quite often to the Bush\Rovian plan to destroy and subsume the last vestiges of the Democratic Party. To cast it into the political wilderness as the Repukes of congress had been in days of yore.

I still think he's talking outta his ass, but lately I'm wonderin about the choice our party is about to make this coming year. It's not just a nominee we are struggling for here amongst the DU electron electorate, but a standard bearer for our party. And deciding just how opposing, our oppositon party is gonna be in the future.

Before the 2002 elections, our 'fearless' leaders hurried to get the IWR vote behind them as soon as they could, mindful of the impact 9\11 had on the general electorate, and with the goal of leaving enough time between that vote and the vote in Nov. 2002. We played the 'we love our country too, and can be just as military as the next guy' game, and got our asses handed to us. Republicans now control all 3, er... 4 branches of the government.

Now I'm gonna hang around here, as much as I can stand it (which ain't much some days), and I'm gonna vote. But I'm gonna vote for a standard bearer that will make me proud to be associated with the party of my registry, Democrat! And IT WILL BE A LEFT LEANING DEMOCRAT! The kind that had the vision and forethought that brought this country Social Security, the New Deal, the G-I Bill, The Voting Rights Act, the Clean Water Act, The Clean Air Act, the Americans With DisAbilities Act, etc, etc, etc...

We may go down in 2004. And this would indeed be terrble. But I, and I hope others, will go down while on their feet, from a fighting position.

Those that want to go down while on their knees...

:shrug:

BTW - Eloriel, don't stay away too long. Missin ya already!

:loveya:

[LoneStarLiberal]

76. What I Would Encourage, Eloriel...

First and foremost, in whatever you do, good luck to you. I've always enjoyed your posts though we disagree on our choice of candidate. I hope you won't remain inactive for too long.

There is and has been for some time now a disconnect in the Democratic Party. I think you can go back to the 2000 elections when Gore mailed it in concerning the Florida recount. No doubt about it, he didn't simply make this decision on his own; he mailed it in partially due to the bewilderment of those who were completely taken aback by the brazen thievery of the Republicans and the complacency of most of the American electorate. Since then, the Republicans have taken turns spanking the Democratic Party in Congress, in the courts, in the state houses, and in governors' mansions all across America.

Instead of leadership from the DNC we have heard nothing more than the deafening roar of silence. Little to no state-level, House, or Senate support for Democratic candidates; it has reached such a low level that, if my reading of the news releases was correct, the Democratic candidates defeated in the recent Mississippi and Kentucky gubernatorial races did not WANT any DNC participation in their races! How f!@#$d up is the leadership when people running close, important races don't want you involved? Yikes!

We also have what appears to be a full-bore Senatorial bug-out in progress for next year across the South. Tenured Democratic Senators are retiring across the South, DINO Zell Miller as well. Five precious Senate seats in all, and at this early stage it looks like we can count ourselves winners if we retain three of the five, which means everything being equal we really lose the Senate. As the literature in Congressional studies shows, it looks like these four (excluding first-termer John Edwards) are literally taking the money and running instead of wasting money running campaigns that will probably only see them defeated (my idea of their mental calculus, not mine).

If redistricting in Texas stands up to judicial scrutiny, then we stand to lose more ground in the House, again all things being equal.

The point I am trying to make is that I think all of us, no matter if we support Dean, Clark, Kerry, Edwards, Kucinich, Sharpton, Braun, Gephardt, or Lieberman need to take a deep breath and realize that the Presidency is the second-best prize in 2004. The first prize, and the one we look most ready to lose, is the Senate. If we put Dean or Clark or anyone else in the White House and lose more ground in the Senate and House, the only thing we're going to accomplish is safeguarding the judiciary for four years' time. We can forget about the rest of it; it would never make it beyond a Republican Congress.

I feel passionately about my candidate too. I know what it feels like to read through thread after thread here and see nothing but vitriol aimed at him. It's damned discouraging.

In the big picture, though, there are far more things to be discouraged about than what other Democrats say here on DU. I feel fairly certain most people here despite any territoriality right now will rally behind whomever wins the nomination. There's a lot of work to be done and we all, regardless of our candidates, have important roles to play.

[cprise]

81. Eloriel, this is all no more than a RASH

This is no worse than back when Dean initially denounced the war, or when Baghdad fell, etc.

It's just noisier now that DU has grown.

Oh, and we on the left have all been saying that the Democratic party is heading for ruin (and then saw some of that happen in the elections). Well, we should not be discouraged from doing our best in preventing that ruin, even when the cynics are out in full force telling us "the way things are".

[drfemoe]

86. Defiant Democrats

Yes, the party of the "People". We are not like those on the right who wait and listen to be told what to "believe". We know what is good for us, and don't need a master to tell us what we "understand". Gawd knows NOBODY is going to tell us what to do!!

"Gore can't tell us who to support"
"Dean can't come down here and tell us ..."
"Nobody is going to tell me how to vote!"

Yet, consider who is telling us what to do RIGHT THIS VERY MINUTE!

Maybe some of you have noticed how many times the officer in chief tells YOU & ME exactly how I understand ... whatever he has up his sleeve at the moment.

Google arhives news items for 30 days. A search of bush+america+understands today turns up 2,470 + times that he uses this phrase to tell me what to do, what I think, believe, understand. He has even said, given his position, he doesn't have to answer questions. He is answerable to NO ONE.

It's really sad that so many missed E's point. We are so happily damning ourselves because, by gawd No One Tells Me ...

Check again, friends ..

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&edition=us&q=bush+american+understand
(this search isn't exclusive to *u*h's use of the phrase .. but it gives you a good idea)

[Sapphocrat]

88. Eloriel...

I understand everything you've said, and agree with 99% of it. And I of all people understand the need to get away... I just thought only loose cannons like me were allowed to do it. ;)

Still, you break my heart with this. Of all DUers, there are about a dozen whose posts I never fail to read and absorb. But there are just two who have influenced my thinking, and given me more courage in my own convictions, than anyone else, and you are one of them. (I think the other already knows who he is.)

So, on a very personal and totally selfish level, I'm intensely sorry to know I won't be benefitting from your wisdom and insight... which, I hope, will only be a temporary situation.

Thank you, Eloriel, for everything you've given me, and the ways in which you have contributed to many subtle changes in my thinking and perception, without you even knowing it.

I admire you so much. I'll really miss you.

[WilliamPitt]

90. I can't believe you're getting off the bus

[artr2]

92. I can't come here anymore either

I just get too depressed when I read these posts slamming one another. I am going to remove all shortcuts I have to this place and possibly remove the DU sitcker from my car. Why would I want anyone I want to try to talk to aabout my canditate to come here. I might as well send them over to free republic. At least you know where they arte coming from. I did one of these good by posts before and I came back. No, not this time, ya all can just wallow in the mud, I am just to sick of it

[WilliamPitt]

95. On further reflection

If each and every DUer tried as hard as they could - I mean maximum output - they could not destroy the Democratic Party by posting on an internet forum. Period.

[Dookus]

107. Exactly right, Will....

I just don't understand the attitude here. It seems to be "if you don't agree with my choice for President, you're destroying the party, the nation, nay the future of all mankind."

That's just silly - and a symptom of delusions of grandeur. We have no such power.

These Sarah Bernhardt exits are just the ultimate vanity - *I* know what the world needs and anybody who doesn't see it my way is dangerous."

Well screw that. It's primary season. Let's have some primaries and see what happens.

[Iverson]

119. sounds like cause/symptom confusion

As I read Eloriel, the argument isn't that unkind DU threads have destroyed the Democratic Party, or will do so, but that they are symptomatic of a mentality that is.

[unfrigginreal]

121. It depends on what we're talking about destroying

The Democratic Party conglomerate is certainly in no danger, the Democratic Party morality is teetering on the edge.

[Scott Lee]

157. The Democratic Statists, like Hillary Clinton, are doing the destructing

You're correct. Posts hammered out on DU won't bring the demise of the Democratic Party. But "leaders" like Hillary Clinton (who, when recently asked if the Democratic Party needs change, gave a curt "No.") certainly will hasten it. Statism by it's own virtue is a formula for death.

Eloriel has this one nailed dead to rights. If all the rethugs have to do is let fly with some ridiculous patriotism-impugning tripe or one off issue to send the Democrats scattering with fear and morose thoughts of surrender, then the Democratic Party is ALREADY dead.

[Gringo]

101. I'm utterly dispirited today

I've been a Dean supporter all along, and I still love his energy. He may very well win the primary.

I'm just so close to resigning myself to the fact that the sheeple will say to themselves "Golly, Bush got Saddam, and I'VE still got a job - he must be doing a good job, I'll vote for him" while we who pay much attention to the horrible job this administration know better, that is the average person's level of interest and understanding of politics.

I just feel like giving up. Turn on the TV, watch "Temptation Island" and become a blissed out vegetable like averybody else, at least until we're all homeless thanks to the endless tide of job exportation.

I'm fed up. Fed up with DU, the right-wing media, myself, and the lazy-ass American mindset.

Oh, I'll get out and vote - in the primary, and in the general election, but I'm just so damn tired now. I don't even care who the nominee is. Anybody but Lieberman, the only dem who could drive me to vote green.

I hope I can get back some enthusiasm soon

The funny thing is, on another plane, I'm glad they got Saddam. I hope it helps to wrap up this stupid, pointless war. Politically, however.... (sigh)

[OneBlueSky]

109. VERY well said, Eloriel . . . and deeply reflective of my own thoughts . .

I too have found myself gradually backing away from DU . . . the circular firing squad that we have become just adds more depression to an already depressing world situation, and that I don't need . . . I would have hoped that these forums would be used to discuss the real issues and articulate possible solutions to the myriad of problems facing this country . . . Bush-bashing isn't going to win us any elections unless we can put forward a progressive platform and explain, in plain language, why it makes more sense that what's happening now . . . unfortunately, we spend most of our time bashing each other's candidates, and that's about as self-defeating as you can get . . . damn, all the Repugs have to do to develop their attack points is read DU! . . . just doesn't make sense to me and, as I said, has gotten very depressing . . .

one of my real interests is the whole issue of ending corporate governance, and I've tried several times to initiate some real discussions of the issue . . . the threads attract posts for about a day, and then disappear into the archives . . . no one seems to want to flesh out the issue, discuss alternatives, investigate what others are doing, and maybe come up with some sensible ideas that the Democrats could put forward to start shifting the balance away from corporations and back to the people . . . folks would rather organize Stop Dean movements or lambast Kerry's IWR vote or lament Clark's military background . . . all of which I consider counterproductive and of very little interest . . .

what DU should be doing is discussing the real issues and developing the seeds of a Democratic platform that makes sense both for winning the election and governing should we win (a slim hope at best at this point) . . . as long as that's not happening, my interest continues to wane, and I feel that maybe my time is better spent elsewhere . . . I'll continue to check in each day I suppose, but with much less enthusiasm and participation . . . I don't see very many solutions being discussed here and, as the saying goes, if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem . . .

[jaysunb]

110. Don't go too far away....

Voices like yours are badly needed at a time when the right wing radicals have lots of lefties and progressives believing, the guy that lost in 2000 suddenly can't be beat.

Remember the old adage: If you say you can't....you won't. I don't know if some of these rabid Dean haters are neophyites or trolls, but I do know that if you actually respond or try to reason with them, you can expect your blood pressure to rise.

This board represents all that's wrong with our party.
I too decline to post much anymore, it's like a food fight gone too far.

Hope to see you again soon.......

[oasis]

112. Eloriel, your participation on DU will be missed. Your service to our

community will be remembered by many of us here.. The Dean campaign is fortunate to have such a dedicated and knowledgable individual such as you.

Please accept my sincere wish for much success.

[aquart]

116. Piffle. You were expecting a tea party?

Take a candle shower. Do whatever makes your body and mind feel rested and peaceful. SLEEP LONG HOURS. Get up and put on the clothes that feel smoothest and softest. Your foot-kindest shoes.

Then get your relaxed ass back into your computer chair and log in to DU. This is going to be a long, exhausting fight. If we let BushCo manners win in this place, we give them the election and the country. Besides, this is good training for taking back the language, the rules, the nation.

We are free to argue and we are so frightened and desperate we resort to desperate measures. As does the party and its members. We care so much and see what's going on.

But I'm much nicer since I got deleted twice in one night. Retraining is possible.

I assure you, you will be disgusted and disheartened many more times, BUT THEY WILL NOT WIN. However, what they will leave us will be such a mess we will tear our hearts out again trying to find the best way to fix it.

And we won't become ethical again overnight. But we never will if we all turn tail and run.

Rest. Sleep. Eat delicious treats. Pasta and protein. Have it all. But then come back where you're needed.

[Iverson]

120. Robert Reich felt much the same.

This was before the great triumphs in the off-term elections of 2002 and 2003. Gee, should we listen? Or is continuing to drift to the right likely to offer a completely opposite result than before?

http://www.commondreams.org/views01/0311-01.htm

Look, the only reason the Democratic Party is sitting upright is that it's been nailed there, like the Python parrot. Who speaks for the Democrats? Clinton is utterly disgraced. Gore ran a lousy campaign. Terry McAuliffe heads the Democratic National Committee only because he raised a ton of money for Clinton.

And don't tell me the Democratic Leadership Council, with all that talk about being from the vital center -- why, even Hillary joined up -- is going to revive this bird. The DLC stands for nothing, nada, zero, except it's anti-union. No grass roots. No troops. No one out in America cares about the DLC. The DLC says it's centrist, but centrism is wherever the polls say most Americans are. And most Americans drift wherever there's a lot of hullabaloo. Centrism is unprincipled. Centrism doesn't lead. It follows. Centrism is Dick Morris. Centrism is nowhere.

[library_max]

138. Save it.

We know you are a committed Green and wish the Democratic Party nothing but pestilence, plague, and death.

Centrism wins elections. Every single Democrat who has ever won the presidency has run as a centrist. That includes JFK and FDR. Centrism, if you'll think about it, is democracy at work. It means getting in line with views acceptable to the majority.

Dean can do that. Dean hardly has an ultra-liberal record as the Governor of Vermont. We seem to be divided here between those who see Dean as a leftist savior and those who see Dean as the next McGovern. He is highly unlikely to be either. He is naturally running left during the Democratic primaries. Watch him head toward center as soon as he gets nominated (assuming he does). Dean is a smart politician and my respect for him as a campaigner continues to grow. I just hope we can be realistic and keep our eyes on the prize (ousting Bush) when we finally see that Dean is a politician and not a messiah or a cult leader.

[Iverson]

139. Personal attacks are unhandsome, inaccurate.

Your characterization of my wishes is false ... again. I am sure that you have something constructive to do.

[library_max]

160. Something constructive.

Faced with a choice between responding to a one-line zinger and responding to nine lines of content, which did you do? And why am I not surprised? Constructive indeed.

[Iverson]

165. ah, more personal snipes

Sorry if you disagree so strenuously with Clinton's Secretary of Labor.

To answer your question, the reason you are not surprised is that you proceed from a conclusion.

I really do recommend leaving off the personal campaign. If I approached you the way you approached me, I'd be banned. Think about it.

[yellowdawgdem]

122. optimism

Eloriel, I don't usually reply to the postings on du. However, I was somewhat disturbed reading this one. I can understand your feelings to some extent, yet hope that you will continue to post on du. You are one of the sane voices here, and always have something helpful to say. I really enjoy your postings, in fact look for them.
I know it is hard seeing not only our whole country changing so much, but even du and other progressive strongholds. I think it is better not to take these postings that seriously, or just read the ones that are not likely to be upsetting. It is, I agree, difficult to watch the democratic party losing so much ground. I often feel disoriented and upset over these same things you have mentioned. I'm sure many other people do as well. anyway, I still feel optimistic overall.
take care,
yellowdawg

[virtualobserver]

123. A Revolution always feels like this.......

because fear of change is natural. This transformation is inevitable because the Democratic Party ignored the theft of an election and collaborated with Bush with an endless series of destructive pieces of legislation.

A lot of anti-Dean posters seem to think that this is about the specific policy positions of the different candidates, and it isn't.

This is about Democrats standing up rather than cowering in Bush's shadow. This period is exposing the weakness of those who would enable Bush, and that kind of exposure always generates an extreme reaction. It may be painful to watch, but the party that emerges from this will be a power to be reckoned with.

[barbaraann]

124. That's sad. It won't be the same without you.

I agree with almost everything you said but ever since Gore endorsed Dean I feel like we have a guardian angel and am a lot more optimistic. Perhaps you will wake up some day soon and feel that way, too. I hope so. :-)

[Q]

125. Well said...I've been posting less and less...

...more in a response to the influx of 'Dem-haters' than anything else. I've left and come back to this place so many times in the last year that I've lost track.

- As you may know...I've expressed these same doubts and concerns about the party for a long time here on DU. I came here pissed that the Bushies* took our democracy from us and have over time become disillusioned that the Democratic party has taken it lying down.

- Although many on this thread seem to have missed the point...your post is about much more than 'Dean-hating'. It's about the devolution of the Democratic party...from the closest thing we had to the 'party of the people'...to a political machine that has forsaken the people in order to compete for campaign bucks.

- And then there's the inevitable rant: "America is not ready for a far left candidate". This is a very naive statement when one considers that the Right controls a media that suppresses the voice of the people while promoting the 'corporate view'. It's probably safe to say that 'the people' don't want their lives controlled by corporate/government masters either...which is exactly what you get when you vote for someone that's NOT on the 'far left'. The 'far right' of course WANTS you to think that the country 'isn't ready' for their ideological opponents.

- A much bigger problem for our party is the assimilation of conservative 'democrats' who don't seem to understand or care that the Democratic party was created to be a polar opposite of the Republicans. These 'new' Democrats are quite willing to sell the 'soul' of the party to appease those who have taken control of this country by fraud and deceit. They seem to think it's better to get a few crumbs from the King's table than question their unfair rule over the serfs.

- Bush* is in power...and will probably stay in power after 2004...because factions within the Democratic party have sold out the People in exchange for a seat at the table of power brokers and king makers. They're more interested in their own careers and futures than that of the people who struggle each day just to survive. Gore is in exile right now because he broke away from them...and now they resent him for it. Just as they resent Dean for exposing the complicity of the power brokers with the party leadership.

- There are far too many in the Democratic party that simply don't understand what we're up against and underestimate the power of this corporate government and their media to literally put the Democratic party out of business. Those Democrats they can't put out of business or force to join with the corporate conservatives...are outright destroyed, marginalized or called 'conspiracy nuts' or 'far-left'. 2004 will literally determine the future of the Democratic party. All in all...I see four more years of Bush*.

[edzontar]

127. Thanks for expressing what so many of us feel, Eloriel.

I have never been so disappointed in DU as i was yesterday.

In many ways, this was the straw that broke the camel's back.


I have read the responses and appreciate some of the thoughtful statements from my colleagues, and I thank those who contributed statements of reconciliation and unity.



But I cannot help but note that a new element has come to DU--a divisive, disruptive, self-proclaimed anyone-but-Dean element that seems to be willing to stop at nothing to promote their own candidate, Wesley Clark.

I must tell you that I have always considered General Clark to be a fine man and had considered him, until yesterday, to be my second choice for the nomination.

But after observing the divisive and, frankly, anti-Democratic Party tactics of some of his supporters, especially the perpretrators of the "Stop Dean Movement" thread...I have begun to reconsider my previously receptive opinion of Clark's candidacy.

From where I stand, the postings of the more agressive Clark supporters suggest a group of political neophytes who are willing to use any tactic, however divisive, to undermine support for the present frontrunner. This happens to be Dean at the moment, but I imagine that they would employ similar tactics against any other of our candidates if they managed to pull ahead.

I cannot help but connect this single-minded appraoch to the fact that Clark himself is a newcomer to our party and to electoral politics, and I have found myself wondering if some of the more vocal and divisive Clark supporters have any real commitment to the final victory of our party in the general election.

Constant repetition of canards that "Dean can't win" and that "Clark is only one who CAN win" sugest that this is a one or nothing prospect for a vocal minority of Clark supporters.

I will admit that I am guessing here. I don't know if what I am reading between the flames of yesterday's battles is is true. And I should note that I am equally disturbed by the terrible and divisive arguments that have been aimed at many of the other candidates, including Clark, by some on this board.

In any case, the events of the last day sugegst that DU is losing its way.

The affair of the "Stop Dean Thread" showed how easily this forum can be hijacked by forces that do not have our best interests in mind.

I realise that conflict and disagreement are inevitable in any primary race. Some of you may recall the very bad blood between Jerry Brown and Bill Clinton in 1992, which I felt redounded to the discredit of Gov. Brown.

What I really regret is that these divisions have begun to destroy DU, which is a place I used to enjoy visiting.

Forgive me if I have not made complete sense this morning.

I expect the usual flames, but welcome any thoughtful responses or criticism my friends may have to offer.

[drfemoe]

164. well said imo

.. not only do I find the tactics divisive, but believe they bear a close resemblance to those used by SOA grads and military interrogators at gitmo et al. "sing our tune or else" .. that's not my idea of democracy.

[Armstead]

128. You're right Eloriel -- And it's not about Dean

Unfortunately I agree with much of what you wrote. I feel like the Democratic Party is struggling to maintain its relevance. And DU is becoming such a hostile battlefield that the underlying sense of unity and community -- despite the flame fests that have always existed -- is beoing eroded.

I spend less time here than I used to. I haven't stopped reading and posting (obviously) but so much of it these days makes the eyes glaze over, or makes one angry and frustrated at people who are supposedly on the same side.

But I hope you'll stick around, if even on a lesser basis. It's probably healthy to focus more on housework and real-world activities if this place gets to you. But I hope you won;t leave all together. We need voices like yours here.

[CWebster]

129. Wow, El, tell it like it is!

So glad I didn't miss this thread, my darn life occasionally imposes on my DU browsing, and to think I could've missed this gem.

You speak for many of us, but do not fear, the triumphant fanfare over Saddam's "capture" is already losing volume and Dean is back on the front pages on the chimp's case. Just like we expected he would be. Ya just can't keep a good one down.

I had to rush this off to you, before I read the thread. I need to catch up-catch up with you later.

[CWebster]

132. Okay, I read enough

Hoped for better, but it was as expected. Don't blame you.

On edit:
I take it back, they improve further down the thread. ;-)

[edzontar]

130. Kicking this up.

This is important.

[Polemonium]

133. My wife said yesterday that DU needed an underground

We've only been reading DU for a couple years, and I only started posting recently, but the change has been visible even to us. I hope you come back after the primaries because yours is a name I look for on the board.

I don't know how accurate a reflection DU is of democrats in general, but I do know that most of us here have a passionate need to get Bush out of office. It should not be too surprising that this level of passion leads to some fairly ugly attacks on folks who don't agree with our passionate visions. I agree, however, that the future of the party depends on how we come out of this -- "transformation or death".

Your posts have been a significant part of the reason I was initially attracted to Dean. Your eloquence could bring many others into active participation in democracy. Please consider writing letters to the editor for lots of papers, writing to the blog, and getting your voice to the undecided voters out there. Here at DU I think most of us are too entrenched to be swayed much.

I had hoped that DU would be the voice in the wilderness during this primary season, where a meaningful dialogue about ideas would bring inspiration upon inspiration (oh well, maybe after the primaries).

I've met with other Dean supporters, and the hope there is palpable. I think your spirit would be well served by surrounding yourself by Deaniacs for a while. A diverse bunch full of enough hope to be contagious is a good thing in many ways.

Together let's take our country back.

[mzmolly]

134. That reply was beautiful...

Thank You. I fully agree with every word.

[realFedUp]

135. a sane voice Polemonium

thank you for your posted sentiments.

[bpilgrim]

136. the noise to signal ratio on this board has certainly changed

from the early days thats for sure and yet that is to be expected as the board grows i suppose but there are some things we can do to help with that on the back end like making EVERYONE a mod and let them rank posts, but thats a whole nother discussion i suppose.

but to see the sanctioning by the board owners of the partisian organising to BRING DOWN the DEM front runner is beyond the pale, imho. especially when the board frowns on any organized attack against the reTHUGs or even online 'polls' :crazy:

what i see here is some folks who now believe they are 'insiders' when what they really are... outsiders, just like the rest of us but who desperately want to be 'insiders' and so apparanty take pleasure in browbeating folks, who are actually in leauge with them, right here on DU just like a freeper and like you so eloquently put in a prior thread we ALL deserve better than that.

eloria I hope you know that you are one of my favorite and highly respected posters here and i will certainly miss your thoughtful and well researched post but will be thankful that you are not leaving completely.

I want to make this offer to you and other progressive folks with time , writing and research skills to join us at GFP in helping to spread the word.

we are a small group of concerned citizens who have been working part time and using our own money to run a small media outlet at http://GlobalFreePress.net to help pass the word.

We have a bbs that is organized to be more of a learning/archive of related threads to help shed light on a specific major problem with american politics today and we are always looking for folks with information to share to archive them there...

we also have a newspaper where we publish cherry-picked stories that don't get enought attention...

an image gallery...

and a back end where we can work in private groups to share resources and info to fight the right.

if you or anyone else that is looking for a place to rollup their shirt sleves and get busy on a project to fight the neoCONs just send me a DU.

we must all remember that we are in for a loooong fight that will last longer than any primary and we don't want to lose any of our partners over petty party politics.

TOGETHER we will take this country back.

:loveya:

peace

[Bandit]

137. A wonderful post Eloriel

I hope you don't "vanish" from the scene because I really enjoy what you have to say. I haven't yet decided upon a candidate but I have noticed the deliberate action of splitting the party into shreds. You are quite correct in that the Party has lost it's way and I see no way it will return. Money is the only thing that matters any longer. We have become no less than Republican-lite. We no longer care about the masses because they have no money to offer. With no money our fat cats won't be able to stay in power. So we sold out so we have fat cat representation of the corporations and the people suck hind tit. I don't know if Dean is the guy to lead us back but at least he is speaking out with the things I wish to hear. Those things are not more war talk and how bad the US is but how we want to take care of people and provide fro a better nation. That message is quite lacking with most candidates. What is really bad is the venom in the attacks here upon not only candidates but supporters of them. I'm of the impression it isn't all Democrats doing the insulting and bashing. It is a concerted effort to disrupt and is quite successful.

[library_max]

140. The Democratic Party isn't a monolith.

Never has been. Never will be. There will always be a million voices and a million points of view. Ever since the sixties, Democrats don't respond well to the idea of discipline, and on the whole that's a good thing. So it's not to be wondered at when a forum for Democrats attracts a diversity of views and styles of communication.

It would be nice if it was all constructive. It would be nice if we all had a million dollars. This doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to cajole each other toward civility, constructivity, unity. But we mustn't be too disappointed when it doesn't work on everyone. There are thirty thousand DUers, right? And how many are really the source of your ire and disappointment?

That said, it's just a forum. If you don't like it any more, you should give yourself a break from it. Keep supporting the party, that's the main thing. We've got to get rid of Bush.

[edzontar]

141. Kick!!!!

This is the thread of the season.

Can't let it die.

[arendt]

142. Boy, do I feel guilty.

I haven't flamed you, but I wrote the thread
about how the Dem party is in shreds.

You have now pointed out that DU is in shreds.

It looks like the only thing around that isn't
in shreds is the Dean Campaign.

I will miss your posts. Perhaps I merely am too
detached to feel your feelings about DU, however
awful GD has become.

I mean, I remember when the unwashed masses discovered
Usenet, back in the mid-90s. Discussion went threw
the floor. Nobody knew the etiquette. This feels like
that, so I'm not depressed so much as annoyed. Its like,
time to get out the Raid and spray the little buggers.
Don't forget, Rush and WSJ are painting a bulls-eye on
this site, and lots of creeps are coming over the
gunwales with swords in their teeth.

I voted to split GD. Perhaps that will help. Vigilance
against *new* disruptors will help. Oldtime DUers who
like flame wars cannot be justifiably booted.

Anyway, please stay in touch. And, if you find a new
home, please let us know. This is sort of like flight
from the city to the suburbs, from the suburbs to the
exurbs, etc. Hope you find a good new place within
reasonable commuting distance.

Peace

arendt

[onecitizen]

143. Eloriel...........

your post makes me happy and sad. Something IS seriously wrong within our party. And that is reflected here in the pages of DU. I feel the only one who heard our calls after 2000 was Gov.Dean. People wonder what it is he has. There's no magic involved. Simply for me, he heard our cries of anger and fear. Not fear from terrorists but fear for our country. Yes fear. And now 3 years later, we were right to have had that fear. But when we contacted our representative leaders, did they respond? No, in fact, they joined the very ones who were instilling that fear!

I don't think there's any stopping Dean now. Let them say what they will, he's got the truth on his side.

Please don't stop posting Elorel, we need you.

[kentuck]

144. Eloriel, the Party is being re-born..

and there is pain in birth.

[carolinayellowdog]

145. You will be missed tremendously

Eloriel,

You are and have always been one of my favorite contributors here, so knowing you are giving up on DU is sad news. But all that you write about DU has been eating away at many of us for quite a while. With all the hatred flying around, it is almost impossible to avoid and this was never the case with DU until fairly recently. Although I support Dean, the Dean supporters have contributed their share to making DU what it has become. Indeed, I blundered into their rancor last month and will never forget the piling-on that ensued.

If it has changed for the worse so drastically in recent months, DU can surely change again in response to circumstances. I'll be avoiding all candidate threads and support the division of GD, hoping that after the convention civility will become more widespread. If it doesn't, there will remain fond memories of what DU was before the haters took over. Your contributions are among my best memories here.

CYD

[nomaco-10]

146. Another post and another reason....

why I have so much respect and admiration for Eloriel. She does not come here to divide and conquer, she comes armed with facts, figures, names and dates and most of all, pure passion for the democratic party and a driven goal to restore it to the way it once was and the way it should be again.
For those of you whose daily mantra is, "Dean is not electable" because people perceive him as too far left" listen up, it is your duty as a democrat and a member of the democratic party to change those perceptions, if we don't start 'changing perceptions' and quit buying into rightwing talking points, we will not only lose the election, we will lose what is left of our party and make no mistake, our party is in peril, very dangerous peril at this point. Joe Lieberman and many other so called dems want to take this party in a different direction, ask yourself, is this where I want to see my party headed, resolutions for pre-emtive strikes on other nations, living under the Patriot Act for the rest of your life, judges like Pickering or Estada seated on the bench, your elderly parents being screwed by the Medicare Prescription Drug Act?
It's time for us to speak up and speak out and speak up we will, we are doing it at house parties, meet ups and rallies all over this country, you see, I belong to a group of Americans that want their country back. I refuse to be managed by fear, I prefer being governed by decent and honorable men.

[Ripley]

147. Yes, there is a pestilence here.

Eloriel, you described it very well in your post. I hope you can see by a lot of the responses here that you have friends here who will miss you. I have let this board get under my skin in the past, and it had really negative results. So you leave...and come back.

But it has been harder to come back lately. The amount of personal attacks we have to put up with because we support Dean is hard to tolerate, but hey it's just an open forum.

Try to focus on the good people here and ignore the assholes. When you save your breath and don't waste time reading and responding to the hate-mongers here you will get more positive vibes from this board.

Hope all is well in GA.

:hi:

[nomaco-10]

150. Kick

[hunter]

151. I noticed my star was missing a few weeks ago...

... so I printed out the "Contribute to Democratic Underground by Mail" sheet, but I haven't sent in the money yet. Lately I have a lot of negative feelings about this place.

Have you ever seen a huge flock of seagulls following behind a fishing boat as the fishermen "clean" their catch? The seagulls scream and bite one another as they fight over the entrails, skin, and bone the fishermen leave behind.

That's basically what the Democratic Party has become, a bunch of screaming seagulls fighting over the entrails "our leaders" toss behind the boat.

I'd rather be on the boat preparing my catch.

I should probably be in Sacramento today at the Diebold voting machine certification meeting, but I've got the crud, and I'd probably fall asleep at the wheel somewhere along Highway 5, and my mom and my friends would soon be telling y'all I was dead. So I've decided to keep my germs at home. I only feel dead.

But I will recover, and I still have some hope that DU will recover too. Thanks Eloriel, for everything you've written here.

[edzontar]

152. Yet another KICK!

DU may be swarming with disruptors---and the Stop Dean recruitment line is back and running.

But the soul of our site and our party is represented by this post.

[deutsey]

153. I feel your pain

I know that's become a punchline since Clinton said it, but I seriously feel the heartbreak you express in this post.

That's one reason why I rarely post here at DU anymore. I've been a contributing member for a long time, but recently I feel I've become a stranger in a strange land.

I don't mind the debate and I'm a veteran of a few flamewars here at DU, but in all our disagreements and feuds, I've always felt like most of us here are in this together.

I don't get that feeling much anymore.

I have no intention of leaving DU, but I have to admit I feel less and less like participating here anymore. I guess my lack of interest has also grown the more I've actually gone offline and done community organizing, both in the anti-war movement and the Dean campaign.

At any rate, DU, for me, is becoming a nice place to visit, but I sure wouldn't want to live here.

:shrug:

[VT70]

155. Eloriel,

you hit the nail right on the head about how the Democratic party needs to look out for working people. And that's why I support Dick Gephardt, and not the Cato Institute's Howard Dean. ;-)

[edzontar]

159. Oh please, Gebhardt is fine, and Dean is no CATO guy...

Why do you post things like that?

[maxanne]

158. oh crap

Eloriel - I will miss you more than I can say. I value your wisdom and your humor.

Sadly, you've articulated how I feel about the tone at DU. I thought we could work to change it - but right now there are too many negative voices. You've also put my feelings about the party, and the divisivness into words.

I hope you won't stray too far - I know I won't be alone in missing you.

We Democrats badly need to get our shit together.

[FubarFly]

161. The closer Dean gets to the nomination,

the louder, (and more desperate), the anti-Dean voices will become. I look at it as a positive sign. We're winning. Although we haven't won yet.

Make no mistake, we are in throes of a pitched battle for the future of our Party, and our country. Taking a break may be a necessary and healthy action, but leaving an important front like DU at such a critical time is in my eyes inexecusable. Your eloquence, wisdom, and honest and moral voice are too valuable to lose. If and when you decide to return, you will be greeted with open arms. You are loved, and you will be missed.

[Pathwalker]

162. Ahhh, El....eloquent and correct, as usual.

But I will continue to hope that you won't leave. Besides,cleaning house is no fun - you'll just get dirty. I wholeheartedly agree with you though. All the divicivness around here has not changed a single mind, but it does serve to make one wonder why they continue to be a Democrat. While the party dies from a thousand self-inflicted cuts, the Repukes are laughing, all the way to the banks they own. I have been so disheartened by all the anti-candidate threads that I chose not to work for any of them. The Bushes & the neo-cons are destroying America, while here at DU, the Democrats just tear each other apart...seems like a waste of time.

Sending you a hug...

Anj

[Name removed]

163. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.