Born Again Christians

[jamesarg]

Remember this 38% of Evangelical Christians voted for Al Gore in 2000. That is more of a percentage then Hispanics who voted for Bush. The bottom line is that there are Born Again Christians who are Democrats. So don't knock us all. Thanks!!!

- James

[Bertha Venation]

1. grr...

I hate generalizations.

"Born again" does not automatically equal "mindless fundy."

If anyone doubts there are any born again Christian democrats, check my avatar.

[auburnblu]

3. I would imagine Jimmy Carter fits in that category

I know its fashionable to bash anyone for having faith in their public life these days, or so it seems anyway. But Jimmy Carter shows that a great leader can be very open about his faith.

[blondeatlast]

28. And get their faith correctly, too, GWaBby reads a very strange

version of the HB>

[drdigi420]

37. Actually, in Carter's book

He talks about the importance of becoming a de-facto atheist when taking public office in order to keep his religion our of his policies.

Carter was a very smart man who understood that religion has no place in politics.

My personal opinion is that all religious people should keep it completely and entirely to themselves. Otherwise, it's not a 'personal relationship with god', it's just a show for others.

[TeacherCreature]

53. Carter spoke about his religion quite a bit

you probably aren't old enough to remember. BTW, Bill Clinton and Al Gore are both Baptists. Psssst... that means they are also evangelical. I don't think either of them hide it in a closet either.

[Character Assassin]

54. Oh, please. Clinton is as cosmetic a Christian as Bush

Neither of them use it for anything other than a cosmetic prop at photo opps.

[Cheswick2.0]

63. you really don't get to judge that

you don't get to judge the depth or commitment of someone elses religion anymore than I get to judge whether or not you are going to hell.

[blondeatlast]

81. I must agree with you there.

Jimmy Carter is not only Christian, he is evangelical. He's the only real deal in the bunch.

[Blue_Chill]

102. catch22

If someone follows christianity completely, they are a fundie and a threat to the free world! If they don't, then they are a cosmetic christian and thus "not really" a christian.

:eyes:

[0007]

119. ....you mean like junior is just a drug store cowboy, huh?

I love the way you make up the rules as you go along, LOL!!

[Blue_Chill]

152. I'm sorry but

I haven't been able to follow any of your posts. You simply make no sense at all to me. I am VERY sorry but I don't know what they hell your last post meant and thus I will answer the following....

A hawk is a owl and they both like chicken covered in jellybeans.

I hope you understand.

[0007]

180. 'Tis your way or no way, 'eh? Simply put!

Of, being, or characterized by a surface that is divided into two separate parts by every simple closed curve within it.

To see wrong in another, is one's own wrong. The discrimination between right and wrong is the origin of the the sin. One's own sin is reflected outside and the individual in ignorance super-imposes it on another.

[Blue_Chill]

181. The cow jumps the moon

and attacks the eagle. Upon landing we shall know the truth.

[0007]

185. We?

LOL!! The bingo parlor is paging ya!

[0007]

191. Maybe I even hear that country in South America calling....

Yeah, that's it! It is Chile, ever heard of La Serena? Lived there for many years.

Strong Catholic
Bingo is very big in La Serena, LOL!!

[drdigi420]

148. yep, that about sums it up

[MISSDem]

169. Amen

[LiberalFighter]

186. Religion is ok as long as their church don't dictate to elected officials

There is a line between the views religion should impact on citizens. The main criteria should be whether it impacts negatively on anyone. Legislation should not be enacted to support or include a religious tenet or belief that is contrary to government's interest.

Prayer in public school. Prayer at government meetings. Religious events in government buildings. Religious icons, monuments, displays on government property. Providing any type of funding to any religious organization that serves the public. Insisting on abortion being banned to satisfy their religious beliefs.

There is nothing wrong with being religious and including certain aspects of their beliefs in making decisions. If they allow the person to make the best decision for the citizens. Like Truman had a difficult time in making the decision to drop the bomb on Hiroshima. His upbringing did not allow him to make a rash decision. But Reagan making the comment about bombing USSR was crass and showed lack of responsibility.

We all generally want elected officials that have certain moral characters. Telling the truth, faithful to the spouse, having integrity, does not steal, is not a felon. Those are not religous in nature although religion may have a factor in a persons character.

[Selwynn]

2. Born OK the first time.

...but I hear you and agree, and do actually hold deep spiritual convictions of my own. :)

[blondeatlast]

29. Me, too, but whatever it takes, regardless of the Spirit.

[Karenina]

46. I doubt the original poster

has much respect for those. ;-)

From a thread in LBN:

jamesarg (17 posts)
Response to Original message
59. God is moving in Iraq.

I am a Democrat and I gave my life to Jesus when I was 18, that is three years ago. Everyone needs to know Jesus as their savior, not just Republicans, but Democrats, Communists, Libertarians, Socialists, Muslims, Jews, Catholics, Born again Christians, Agnostics, Athiests, nothings. It doesn't matter what you say your religion is or political party is, you need Jesus to save you from your sins. I am helping to prep some of those young missionaries who will be going over there, and yes I am a Democrat because I believe in the party, even if leftists athiests in the party don't believe in me.

- James

[Blue Gardener]

56. Thanks for posting this Karenina

Saw it in LBN also. Everyone is free to believe what they want, just don't try to convert me please. If I feel an overwhelming need to be converted I'll call someone.

[Karenina]

64. Interesting that this thread

has apparently been abandoned by its originator. I cannot imagine a worse case scenario than busloads of arrogant, ignorant, culturally unaware, disrespectful white Americans descending upon the beleaguered people of Iraq with their assumptions of spiritual superiority. NOTHING good can come of it.

[Blue Gardener]

71. I Agree Completely

I'm sure they totally believe Jesus will keep them out of harms way if they pray hard enough. Fools.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

51. LOL you stole my line

:D

[Cheswick2.0]

59. I used to say that too

that line about being born alright the first time. Then I realized it was an intolerant judgemental thing to say and I stopped.
There are references in the bible to being "born again in Christ". I don't call my self born again but I am not going to judge someone else for doing so. It would show a lack of understanding on my part of what the term actually means to someone like the original poster.

[Karenina]

65. Unfortunately, Cheswick

the original poster has made clear his "righteousness" and his view that all need "fall in line" with his beliefs. Anyone is welcome to refer to himself as he wishes. It is the DEMAND that anyone wishing to enjoy the "benefits" of his "superior spiritual understanding" accept HIS TRUTH as the ultimate truth. Good on you for your tolerance. In view of the original poster's stated goals, I am hard pressed to believe shares that quality.

[Blue_Chill]

100. You keep making personal attacks and offer no links

give us proof to back up your quotes and we can start there. Until then I suggest you address the topic of the thread and not use unproven past comments to make ad hominem attacks.

[Karenina]

137. Just for clarification

The quotes are in the context of my own post and refer to an interpretation of Jamesargs's declaration that you are free to question.
The topic of the thread is that NO group of people should considered a monolith. That is a no-brainer. However, if I find an inconsistency between what appears to be a benign statement and other declarations, I too, am free to point them out.

[Blue_Chill]

164. Point out all that you want

but please gives us links.

[Karenina]

173. At your service.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=287022#288172

[Selwynn]

177. Yeah, well ...after further review....

I was still born OK the first time.

Saying that is not a judgment on anyone else as much as it is an affirmation on what I believe (or don't believe) about the traditional christian doctrine of original sin.

I have no problem with the statement.

[beyurslf]

115. I love that

born ok the first time :)

[nini]

4. REAL Christians have a social conscience

and it would be against their basic beliefs to not vote for the more socially responsive party which is still the Dems.. though I wonder about some of them at times.

[LiberalFighter]

193. I agree

Anyone that have a social conscience regardless of religion should be considered.

Just have to watch out for those that proclaim themselves as being upright in moral values just because they are "Christian".

I find it disgusting that candidates/politicians make a point that they are "Christian" as if that is all they need to get elected. Of course, there are many voters that feel that is all that is necessary too.

If they need to use religion then it means that they have nothing to offer as far as I am concerned.

[Cleita]

5. I got something in the mail today.

It's from the Interfaith Alliance, who are looking for support against Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell. I haven't had a chance to look closely but they have a website. I haven't looked at it yet. Maybe someone will at DU. It's: http://www.interfaithalliance.org.

[blondeatlast]

31. I've just begun looking into them.

Someone posted a few days ago about them. VEry, very impressive. This snip speaks volumes:

GET INVOLVED -- HELP PROTECT RELIGIOUS LIBERTY!

Are county officials in your area attempting to post the Ten Commandments in public buildings, such as court houses, city halls or public school classrooms? Is religion being used as a guise to promote hate speech or hate crime? How do you feel about the Supreme Court taking on the consitutionality of the phrase, "Under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance?

The Interfaith Alliance works every day to promote a positive role for religion in public life as well as challenge those who would manipulate and abuse religion. We watch for instances throughout the United States where we can stand up and make a difference on issues that affect the interfaith community. But we can't do this alone -- we need your help.

I'm in!

[Selwynn]

190. I can speak highly of interfaith alliance --

Their local branch took the initiative in organizing counter-demonstrations to Fred Phelp's people when they were in town. They organized with Your Family Friends and Neighbors, a GLBT group, as well as in partnership with local churches in the area. The counter demonstrations were incredibly professional and respectful - countering their hate with peace and solidarity, not more hate.

[Indiana_Dem]

6. Thank you!

As I am one of those born-again Christian dems!

[young_at_heart]

7. "A true Christian cannot be a Democrat"

This was written in our paper recently by a "good" Christian man. He is very grateful that our president is born-again a has such strong moral values!!!

[salinen]

8. Is this a good place to ask?

Then who are these guys:

Pat Robertson
Jerry Falwell
Ann Coulter
Bush
Reagan
Delay
Hatch

[guitar man]

9. Easy answer

"Then who are these guys:

Pat Robertson
Jerry Falwell
Ann Coulter
Bush
Reagan
Delay
Hatch"



Pharisees,just like the ones who had Jesus crucified. If he showed up today,they would do it again in a heartbeat.

[blondeatlast]

34. If they could recognize Him. Highly unlikely--they don't hang

out in doorways and flophouses.

[Solomon]

95. If Jesus came back today they'd sit him in the electric chair

and then all of us would be wearing little chairs around our necks instead of crosses.

[xxqqqzme]

10. Liars, whiners

'n wannabes

[Name removed]

Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blondeatlast]

33. "Moral?" Bwahahahahahaha!

Oh, sorry, you mean the guy was SERIOUS?!

[drdigi420]

39. I might agree with the opposite

a good democrat would reject religion

but thats just my opinion

[LiberalFighter]

195. I would disagree

A good Democrat would accept religion if it makes them a better person.
A good Democrat can be a better person with or without religion depending on what they need in their life.


A good Republican would accept religion if it makes them a better person.
A good Republican can be a better person with or without religion depending on what they need in their life.

[BigDaddyLove]

48. "A true Christian cannot be a Democrat"...............

Funny, one could get the impression that that idea is shared by some folks here, and is not just in the province of your Christian writer.

[Cheswick2.0]

61. so what?

Some idiot writes your paper and I am supposed to judge all born again christians by his dumb letter?

[Clyde39]

85. Are you kidding? Ralph Reed has been pushing this for years!

I saw a guy on TV re the abortion issue and he basically said the same thing......maybe it's not as isolated as you seem to think.

[Blue_Chill]

94. Ask yourself something

How many right wingers think they are right and others are wrong? A safe bet would be most of them.

So then wouldn't stand to reason that the Christian right wingers would seek to justify their position with their faith, thus making the statement "Christians must be right wing."

Would it surprise you to know I think Christians should be moderates or left wingers, but certainly not right wingers?

[GreenPartyVoter]

62. *snort*

Feel free to surf through the sites listed on the Christian page of my website if you need rebuttal points!

[Cheesehead]

80. My local newspaper solicited "hope for the new year" - mine

My fond hope for 2004 is that it will be a year of HONESTY. Veracity has become a lost art in our government and society, and an election year presents a clear opportunity to get to the bottom of a lot of critical issues that face the region, state and nation. 2003 was a disheartening year in many ways, characterized by an atmosphere of dishonesty, secrecy, and greed that made life a real struggle for many Americans who deserve much better. We are a resilient people, but we battle adversity in a more resolute spirit when we don't feel manipulated or deceived.

In the same spirit, I hope that those of us who define ourselves as Christians will consciously take their social cues from the life and teachings of Jesus and strive be as generous, accepting and compassionate as he was. Jesus accumulated legions of followers by inspiring them rather than by conquering, intimidating or deceiving them. We should do the same in his name.

[grannylib]

120. *lololol* I have always said Republicanism and Christianity are mutually

exclusive; not possible to be both!

[LiberalFighter]

194. You should respond to his letter

Ask what strong moral values is he talking about? Not lying? Against corrupt businesses and people? Doesn't use foul language in public or private?

[wuushew]

11. Pew Research Center numbers

Over the past 15 years, religion and religious faith also have become more strongly aligned with partisan and ideological identification. Republicans and Democrats were equally likely to express strong personal religious attitudes in 1987 and 1988; the same percentage in both parties affirmed the importance of prayer, belief in Judgment Day and strong belief in God (71% in each). But over the past 15 years, Republicans have become increasingly united in these beliefs, opening up a seven-point gap between the parties (78% vs. 71% of Democrats).

This growing divide is even more evident in looking at the relationship between political ideology and religious faith. While there has always been a correlation between conservatism and religiosity, the relationship has grown notably stronger in the past 15 years.


http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?PageID=757

[FDRrocks]

13. Wow the disparity in the numbers from the 80's to now...

shows how well the Rovian full scale pandering to the asshole religious right is working. I am heartened by the number of true christians who are opposed to the really violent and corrupt bullshit going on in the world.

[blondeatlast]

36. Thank you, as I like to believe I belong in the latter category.

[truthseeker1]

30. My conversion from conservative to liberal has MUCH to do with religion

The two are so closely intertwined. I commend those who consider themselves to be Christians or Born-Again Christians who are also progressives/democrats. They probably have a better understanding of what Jesus would do in certain circumstances than Republicans.

I just don't see how anyone who considers himself/herself to be a Christian can be a Republican. There is no such thing as compassionate conservatism, at least not how that term is defined (by the ACTIONS of those who identify themselves as such) today.

[FDRrocks]

12. Well

my girlfriends dad is a bornagain who voted Gore in 2000. Since the capture of Saddam he has been saying to my girlfriend that Iraq is a very neccesary and very important thing, just like Vietnam. And that she will realize this in time.

That's just one person, and I think it's bullshit. I think Iraq was a corrupt war, and I think the communist dominoe theory Vietnam was based on was idiotic.

The only other born again I know has been saying "I think Bush is a good man and know's what he is doing" (contrary to his public display of intellect and his political display of 'goodness'), so I discount that.

I am an atheist, and pretty far left of the Democratic party. I try not to insult other peoples beliefs, sometimes I fail, but I know that there are Democrats of all stripes.

[leesa]

26. Exactly HOW was Viet Nam necessary and important?

All it got us was dead soldiers and many survivors that became walking dead men from the trauma. How on earth was it necessary and important? How on earth is capturing an old defanged leader who hadn't done anything to anyone outside his borders in over twelve years necessary and important. I think this guy is talking about the importance of stealing their oil.

[MysticMind]

55. why was Vietnam necessary?

Because communist North Vietnam invaded non-communist South Vietnam which completely disrupted our policy of containing communism. The whole mistake of Vietnam started in the 50s and the French dividing the nation in two.

[TiredTexan]

14. There was a wonderful Now with Bill

Moyers on Friday night discussing faith and Bush. The minister interviewed by Moyers stated that Bush had been taken up to the mountain, like Jesus, but had opted to take dominion over everything that Satan offered him, unlike Jesus. He also noted the obvious, that Bush was a Liberal Jew.

Christianity, f practiced according to Jesus' dictates, is nothing like what Bush practices.

[schultzee]

15. Old Testament Christians really do not follow Jesus's teachings

[FDRrocks]

16. What religions only follow the old testament?

[wuushew]

18. Jews

n/t

[FDRrocks]

19. Well, I wasn't really clear...

What are old testament Christians?

[TreasonousBastard]

20. They're the ones who look to the Law...

rather than to Grace.

They seem to consider Leviticus more important than the Sermon on the Mount.

I'm surprised they don't keep kosher.

[blondeatlast]

40. Nice, concise overview; you left out one important point, though--

they are also tremendous hypocrites.

[camero]

144. I finally got that

Christ said there were 2 great commandments. Love God and Love your neighbor as yourself. Who is your neighbor? Everyone.

[meow2u3]

96. The answer is simple

Q: What are old testament Christians?

A: In practice, they're really heretical Jews: they don't keep kosher; they work on the Sabbath; they worship on Sunday instead of Saturday; they steal from the "widows and fatherless", updated to include single moms; etc. Just ask any Orthodox Jew.

I've known enough Jewish people to know that the so-called "Christian Right" is but Christian in name only.

[blondeatlast]

38. A VERY overlooked fact. But the Fundies claim to believe in

Jesus and the OT. The hypocrisy is unbelievable.

[LiberalFighter]

Don't they have a difficult time obeying the OT and NT at the same time?

Even obeying everything in the OT at the same time has to be impossible!

[TreasonousBastard]

21. Reverand Dr. Forbes, of Riverside Church

An extraordinary individual, as most Riverside senior ministers tend to be.

http://www.theriversidechurchny.org/index.asp?id=200

[elfwitch]

35. Liberal Jew??

Excuse me?!?

I really hope this is not some attempt to link Jews with greed and such. Because if it was, that guy needs a swift kick in the nads.

As a "Liberal Jew" I take extreme offense at any suggestion that GW is like me and mine. Judaism is ALL ABOUT social conscience and leaving the world a better place than you found it.

We would neither want him or have him. He is a shitbag and could never reach the high Jewish standards of compassion and conscience.

[TiredTexan]

77. OOOOOOOPPPS!!!!!!!

I think I had another senior moment. Sorry. I meant to say Jesus was a liberal Jew.

Bush, in contrast, is a sorry example of a Christian.

[usregimechange]

17. As a Born once atheist I thank you

[eileen from OH]

22. Thanks, James. . .

We DO tend to stereotype about Evangelical Christians. (Um, I'm as guilty as the next person). Really nice to hear from you - thanks!

eileen from OH

[RBHam]

23. Not all Born Again Christians are political extremists...

The same goes for Fundamental Islamics or ultra-orthodox Jews...

The trouble is that the political extremists of all three branches of this same religious tree (Abraham is the trunk), use their unequal control of their agendas to constantly spur this macabre dance of death whose soul purpose seems to be to bring about a great final battle - a "cleansing", if you will. Some say Armageddon, some call it the rapture, some call it the Final Jihad. But the political extremists seem to be determined to force a final showdown. And they have this view that their God will come down from heaven and save the faithful, whilst damning the infidels in a rain of molten fire to be taken to the depths by their deceiver Lucifer...

Meanwhile, the inscrutable Chinese look on. Biding their time. Knowing that it's only a matter of time before they can come in and salvage the mess, they'll be viewed as great conciliators, and the world may see the Chinese Gov (believe it or not) become the number one contributor to foreign aid and peacekeeping duties within a decade.

With Putin in full control of a totalitarian Russia, I'm sure he'll make a few shrewd deals with Beijing and will be invited to take part in the complete reconstruction of the middle east. Though, they would probably have to wait before all the nuclear fallout settled down...

[ldoolin]

24. 1976

I have seen surveys that indicated that as many as 70% of born-again Christians voted for Carter in 1976, and even during the 80s were split about 50-50 between D and R voters. They only succeeded in making evangelicals a core Republican constituency after 1988.

I think the problem is the New Right decided that evangelical Christians were a good target to win over to the right, using wedge issues like abortion. Turn on any Christian radio or TV station and you will find people like Pat Robertson and Marlin Maddoux denouncing liberals and praising Bush. Go into most Christian bookstores, and there will be a lot of anti-liberal books, gushing biographies of people like Ollie North, displays promoting the Bush Presidential Prayer Team, etc.

It all smacks of a heavy-handed propoganda effort, led and financed by people who are right-wing ideologues, and not as something that is inherent to evangelical Christians. In the case of Pat Robertson and Marlin Maddoux I think they are people who are right-wing ideologues first and Christians second, more interested in promoting an atmosphere within evangelicalism where Christians are made to feel that Christians cannot be liberals and must vote Republican, than in promoting Christianity itself.

There are some evangelicals who are political liberals, whose books are becoming increasingly hard to find in the evangelical bookstores: Ron Sider, Tony Campollo, etc. Some evangelical denominations like the Church of the Brethern and the Mennonites are very liberal politically but you won't find any of their books in the evangelical bookstores at all, and you won't find any of their programs on the Christian radio stations. The liberal evangelical voices have simply been drowned out by a heavy handed right-wing recruitment effort. The question is, who is really behind it and who is funding it?

[TrogL]

74. Follow the money

Richard Mellon Scaife

[leesa]

25. Great. You are the ones that need to make noise and need to

challenge your RW fake christian breathran who have fallen away from the words of Jesus Christ.
You need to expose Bush for his anti-Christian behavior.
I hear virtually nothing from the Christians who actually believe Christ's words. Just the bomb-murder-them-all variety of fake christian. These christians make me laugh at their lack of faith. They are so frightened of dying and meeting their maker, that they are willing to bomb many thousands of innocent people on the off chance that they might "get" a potential "terrorist". Or is it that they are just greedy bastards who want to make sure god's chosen people have enough gas to power their giant trucks?

[blondeatlast]

42. You hit the nail on the head, Leesa.

They are so frightened of dying and meeting their maker

This Christian lives for the here and now. I believe God is truly merciful, and those that are truly good (regardless of belief or even lack thereof) will find their reward. I'm not sure when or where, but I believe this very strongly.

I hope we will meet each other there (if not having the pleasure to do so before :)).

[LiberalFighter]

197. Either that or they don't believe in God

and feel that they can commit any crime they want without any consequence because of their social status in life.

[truthseeker1]

43. Wow, nicely said Leesa

I live with a family of freepers like what you just described.

[Sterling]

50. I agree, change from within.

I think it is up to you guys to clear your rep. I would but I always feel like I am insulting your religion.

[stopbush]

27. The problem with Xtianity is the same problem with accounting

or horoscopes, for that matter - ie: there are enough divergent sayings and opinions offered to justify anything. Just look at the past history of both the institutionalized church and governments believing they were doing the work of "the Lord." And you don't have to go back to the Crusades - the Vatican has admitted working with the Nazis in WWII, fer Beelzebub's sake!

For every Xtian who attempts to live by the more-benign or human-friendly aspects of Jesus' words, there are an equal number who take the less-savory aspects of his pronouncements as their credo. Believe me, I had discussions with repuke neighbors back in NJ who called themselves Xtains and lived by two sayings of Jesus, 1) "the poor you will always have with you," which they interpreted as "so don't bother trying to help them...scrape 'em off," and 2) "Suppose you that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division," which they take as justification for war, incivility and just about anything else that fits into their ego-centric approach to life. It didn't matter that these sayings were possibly taken out of context. After all, that's the repuke way.

[zeemike]

73. I somewhat disagree

Not in whether they use an out of context saying to make there point, but the infrequence of using the words of Jesus. If you will notice any RW preacher will almost always quote Paul to make his point.
The truth is if you use only the words of Jesus as a quote it would destroy every political idea that they have. And they know this, and would louse any debate that limited itself to the teachings of Jesus.

[Sterling]

89. Whats with Paul?

Why do they use him?

[zeemike]

90. It must be remembered

That Paul was not a disciple of Jesus and was actually a persecutor of Christians after the death of Jesus and was converted on the road to Damascus.
But mostly because he wrote a lot of letters to the churches he was trying to manage and those letters are included in the bible. Paul was the one that changed the church to make it more compatible with the Roman way of life.
And despite what we think, this was necessary to prevent the whole story of Jesus from being lost to the world.

[TankLV]

32. Sorry to burst your bubble - I was born right the first time - no need to

be born again.

Utter bullshit.

I will knock any and every one who shoves their religion down my throat.

And our US Talibornagains want to enshrine THEIR bigoted, narrow, warped view of religion as official US policy.

NEVER!

Go back into your church and leave us to enjoy our lives.

[Breezy du Nord]

41. So I suppose now you're going to assume every Muslim is going to kill you?

Cause rash generalizations tend to fall that way.

[stopbush]

44. Well spoke.

The concept of America existing as a secular state that allows for its citizens to believe in a chosen god mythos seems to be lost on the fundy Xtians. The Constitution doesn't care if it's Zeus, Odin, Satan, Ming the Merciful or the Judeo/Xtian version that rings your bell. Any and all are welcome and none are refused.

But the Constitution is inherently at odds with the fundies who believe they are ordered to leave their churches and convert the world to their beliefs with not only government sanction and blessing but, under bush, taxpayer funding. Is it any wonder that Foulwell was one of the first to benefit from bush's myth-based initiative? That particular act of Constitution trampling gains an unfortunate pass in most Americans' minds because they view their own church as a benevolent and benign institution, ie: a glorified/holified social setting, as it were. That's not what it is in the minds of the religious right who long ago realized the power of myth over believers of every stripe. How else could Ronald Raygun - a law-breaking, divorced, non-church-going parent who completely ignored his children - be held up as a paragon of patriotism, godliness and family values?

The bottom line is that America can exist as a secular state that allows for religious diversity - it cannot exist as a religious entity that embraces the secular. At this point, I'm afraid it's wishful thinking to imagine that the USA could see a new age of enlightenment dawning on its shores. America's recent slide into religion-enabled fear and ignorance is at far remove from true spiritual enlightenment. One must look offshore for such growth in the human experience, for we in the USA have replaced spirituality with jingoistic materialism.

And so it goes...

[Karenina]

57. Your points are well taken.

I am curious how a person who sees the world SOLELY through his own "religious" prism can reconcile the liberal value of tolerance. My experience with "born again" believers has informed my desire to avoid them whenever possible. When I read such declarations as the one I reposted above from the LBN thread, I simply sigh and shake my head. The "crusade" mentality is destroying America.

[Character Assassin]

45. What's bullshit here is your inability to understand metaphors

Being 'born again' implies something similar to what Buddhism strives for in enlightenment. It is also something that is far and away only mouthed like an empty slogan by most who claim it, but that is only further proof of similarity between the two.

It's not particularly suprising that that's so difficult for you to comprehend.

[Cheswick2.0]

58. I don't see any religious views being shoved around here except yours

once again the Evil christians here sneakily use manners and respect to force the non-believers into acting all angry and judgemental. You folks fall for it everytime. I am pretty sure I own your soul now.

[Karenina]

66. The original poster

has publicly declared his support for and efforts on behalf of sending missionaries into Iraq to "save their heathen souls." This has zip to do with your mainstream American Christian. I find his "manners" disingenuous, "respect" TOTALLY lacking and understand TLV's emotional response.

[Blue_Chill]

98. Oh no not missionaries!

I'm sorry but I refuse to see missionaries as bad people. Every group has recruiting tactics, missionaries at least offer some releif in war torn areas, even if it does come at a price. You seem to single out christians missionaries, is there a personal bias involved here?

Also what EXACTLY about the original post in this thread do you find lacking respect?

[truthspeaker]

110. I see most missionaries as bad people

because they go into other cultures and effectively say "The religious practices you've been following for centuries are wrong, and you need to follow ours instead!"

I realize there are a minority of missionaries who concentrate on food, shelter, and healthcare first, and prosyletizing second. Those missionaries I have no problem with.

[Blue_Chill]

111. So then are liberals bad people?

We challenge coultures and traditions all the time and never hesistate to say some age old practice is wrong. Same thing with missionaries, they think they know better and go out and tell people exactly that.

it seems the problem here isn't what they do, it's that you don't agree with what they are saying.

[truthspeaker]

113. difference between actions and beliefs

When liberals say discrimination based on race is wrong, or slavery is wrong, or discrimination based on sexual orientation is wrong, we are criticizing actions.

When missionaries say it's wrong to worship the spirits of the forest and that you should worship Jesus instead, they are criticizing beliefs. It's not trying to make a society better, it's just trying to get a society to exchange one religion for another. I think that's insulting and intolerant.

[Blue_Chill]

124. No difference at all

Actions are based in beliefs. For example can one really behave as if women are second class ctizens if one doesn't on some level believe it to be true? No. We challenge beliefs 'BY' challenging actions.

[truthspeaker]

134. but what god(s) a person worships have nothing to do with morality

If people want to go to Africa, India, or elsewhere and say "it's immoral to mutiliate women's genitals" or "it's immoral to have sex with 30 HIV-positive prostitutes and then force your wife to have sex with you" or "it's immoral to make children work 60 hours a week in a sweatshop" then, great. More power to them.

But that's very different from saying "It's immoral to worship your gods. Our god is good, yours are evil and/or don't exist." The latter is about religious beliefs, not morality.

[Blue_Chill]

141. I disagree

The gods a person worships can in fact have a lot to do with what they consider to be moral. Take a satanist for example, are you telling me his religion teaches the same morals as Islam? heh.

Missionaries beleive this to be the case for all religions, they see their as superior, and seek to spread it. It is no different then spreadin your political message, you see yourself as right and seek to make others agree.

[truthspeaker]

146. but I don't threaten people with eternal hellfire if they disagree

with my political beliefs.

As to your questions about satanists and Muslims, I have found through experience that what religion someone belongs to is a very poor predictor of their morality. I've known good Christians and evil Christians, good Muslims and evil Muslims, good Satanists and evil Satanists, good Wiccans and evil Wiccans, etc. etc. etc. So while, on paper, satanists and Islams may have very different teachings on morality, in practice it doesn't seem to make any difference. Converting someone from one faith to another, or to or from no faith at all, will not have any effect whatsoever on the morality of their behavior.

[Blue_Chill]

150. No but you seek to force your way with no less determination

And I have to disagree with your statement that religion plays no role in morality. If you are a christian then you believe adultery is wrong, now that is not to say you won't commit it yourself, it only means you know it to be "bad".

You seem to forget that people often do things they no to be "bad". Moral codes can't make choices for people, you seem to think that if they don't then they don't exist.

[truthspeaker]

156. I do?

Where have I forced my religious beliefs on anyone? I rarely talk about them unless asked.

You're right that Christianity teaches that adultery is bad. But my point is that it's not necessary to believe that Jesus is the son of God to believe that adultery is bad. One can believe that adultery is bad whether one worships Jesus, Osiris, Odin, or worships no gods.

[Blue_Chill]

161. yes you do

and I wasn't talking about your religious beliefs.

BTW - of course you can believe whatever morals you wish, but each religion comes with a rule book, and many think there rule book is the best. Religion and morality are connected, just because you can believe in one without the other doesn't change anything.

[truthspeaker]

184. please link to a post

where I told people they would burn in hell for all eternity if they disagreed with one of my political opinions

[LiberalFighter]

198. How many use the same bible but interpret the rules differently

[arwalden]

121. History Shows Us That Missionaries Destroy Cultures...

vandalize ancient artifacts, artwork, carvings, statues (or anything that dares to depict nudity). They preach about chastity yet they introduce and spread their Western venereal diseases (and other diseases) among the natives. The Christian hypocrisy and intolerance of old is alive and well today.

I suspect that proselytizing in Third World countries and communities is important (and effective) because those folks are less educated and less sophisticated. They have more pressing concerns about food and shelter and developing/using their critical thinking skills is obviously not a priority. Certainly these simple-minded folks are more likely to believe what's told to them without question. They are naive and marvel with childlike wonder when they witness technology for the first time. They are in awe at the 'magical' abilities the talking boxes, the moving pictures, cameras and photos. Of course these simple people make easy marks for the missionaries.

They are being manipulated and taken advantage of. Entire cultures and languages are disappearing in less than a generation as a direct result of missionary "help" and intervention.

Why must they proselytize AT ALL?? Why can't they just do good for the sake of doing good?? Why must there be a price for the locals to pay? Why must there be a catch? Why must they have their PAYOFF?

Missionaries... phooey! They are mental terrorists... they take advantage of ignorance and use fear tactics to destroy cultures. It's just that simple.

-- Allen

[Blue_Chill]

123. So then you have problems with morality and christianity

and don't want such things to be spread. OK great, once again it isn't the "how" but the "what" that bothers you.

Also I caught the line about "less educated" being easier to convert. Nice little insult tossed in there.

[Lars39]

125. You are inferring that natives of other lands have no morals until the

missionaries 'bring them to christ'?

[Blue_Chill]

130. Oh geez

I'll remember to add a disclaimer next time to avoid this type of strawman.

No sir, I did not mean that others did not have morals. kthx.

[Lars39]

132. In your own words:

"So then you have problems with morality and christianity
and don't want such things to be spread."

[Blue_Chill]

135. Note I said

Morality "AND" Christianity. I seperated the two, and it wasn't a accident. Christian "morals" in many ways predate christianity itself.

Fell better now or do we have to push this strawman further?

[Lars39]

142. Sorry, you're still inferring that the natives have no morals unless

christianity comes knocking at their door.

[Blue_Chill]

145. No I'm not

I'm stating that they may be different but morality is not a christian only thing. I thought I made it clear when I said morality predated christianity.

NATIVES DID IN FACT HAVE THEIR OWN MORAL CODES BEFORE CHRISTIANITY ARRIVED. Is that clear enough for you now?

have a day.

[Lars39]

151. So if they are moral and have their own religious beliefs,

why isn't it that sufficient? Why are they viewed as inferior by evangelical christian missionaries, such as southern bapts, just because they are different?

[Blue_Chill]

155. Because every group pushes their message

Or do you think that americans should continue to ban homosexual marriage. After all that is the current moral code here, why should you push your views on them?

Why aren't their own views good enough, why must you jam yours down their throats.

[Lars39]

157. My view is to let the natives alone.

I agree with the Star Trek Prime Directive. :)

[LiberalFighter]

199. And why shouldn't people decide for themselves without being pursued

by those wishing to change their belief?

I would think it would be better for people to seek out the truth instead of it being shoved down their throat.

(Added for your rebuttal to bluechill)

[truthspeaker]

127. no, he's saying it's immoral to push your religious beliefs on others

It's also arrogant to equate morality with Christianity (or any other religion).

[Blue_Chill]

131. How is it so?

how is it immoral to push your religious beliefs but not other beliefs on people? I'm sorry that you can't see it but your problem isn't the pushing, but instead what is being pushed, and that is hypocritical.

All groups push their beliefs in their own ways.

[truthspeaker]

138. history shows us that people who push religious beliefs tend to be evil

Whether it was Pontius Pilate marching Roman soldiers into the Jewish temple of Jerusalem, Christians burning pagans, Muslims murdering Jews, or Stalinists murdering Christians, any group that claims to have the one true faith AND insists on spreading it is bound to cause trouble.

[Blue_Chill]

143. lol sure if you only look at evil people as examples

Nice logic btw.

[truthspeaker]

149. show me some examples of good missionaries then

if you can find any.

Let me put it this way: Wiccans don't proselytize, and I've never heard of a Wiccan burning anybody at the stake.

[Blue_Chill]

159. Go to africa

Go to the hospitals and ask the guy holding the hand of a dying person no one cares about to point one out. You see people don't write about them and there are many.

[LanternWaste]

189. I think I've got one example

1986 and her name was Kerri Anne Messner. A fellow parishoner from my (small) church. She was nineteen and had just graduated from nursing school. She told me that she felt compelled to join up with a community missionary group made up of three different denominations from my area. I was devasted as we had been going out for five months and I really didn't want to engage in a prolonged absence from her. But on the other hand, I was really, really proud of her.

She worked with a small group of doctors and teachers in the village of Cuachin, bringing healthcare and education to the inhabitants. She wrote often and told me how much she enjoyed the work she was doing and how fullfilling it was to her.

Three months later, I received a phone call from her parents who told me she had been killed during a guerilla raid on the village.

I think she's an example of a "good missionary", but that's really just my opinion. For all I know, maybe she did try to "force" religion on the villagers and make them "succumb" to our culture. I can't prove it one way or the other, but knowing her for the time I did, I just have to doubt that she was manipulating a third world village "for her God". I think she was just trying to help people...

[LiberalFighter]

200. Especially when the church was a major part of the state.

And if you criticized the church the state would take action action them. If you were making statements contrary to church beliefs the state would charge that person with heresy. Or the state would allow the church to prosecute any citizen for any action the against church.

Was it the Jesuits that were involved in the Inquistion?

[dawn]

174. No, not all groups push their religion onto others.

Some groups prefer that you stay in the religion of your birth, unless their specific message resonates with you. Also, some groups respect the traditions of all religions, including Christianity, and encourage their followers to read the Gospels and such.

[arwalden]

175. Don't Be Silly. You're Wrong Again... Indeed It IS Pretty Much The "HOW"

You "caught the line"?? No line... the truth. No insult... the truth.

These natives and tribespeople are INDEED less educated and less likely to think critically. These are people who ALREADY have their own myths and gods and monsters. This is the truth. This is a fact.

How do you see an insult? They *are* naive. They are more inclined to believe ANYTHING that the sophisticated Westerners have to tell them.

Did you even bother to read my original message? Maybe it's my fault. Perhaps my command of the English language isn't as good as I though it was.

I tell the truth. Rather than refute my words, you choose to mischaracterize them. Rather than argue against facts which are plain and self-evident, you claim that you're insulted. Oh well, nothing I can do about that. You'll just have to deal with it the best way you know how.

-- Allen

[dawn]

172. I agree...

I think it's wonderful that they give aid to the people, but it should stop there, with the act of charity.

[Karenina]

154. Thanx Truthspeaker!

I don't see them as "bad people," more as folks whose sense of superiority, self-righteousness and conditioning blind them to any factual input. When someone puts his butt on the line to SERVE others, with an outstretched, flat hand, like offering an unbroken horse a slice of apple, expecting no return other than the joy he achieves in giving and the sentient being's trust and willingness to receive, that's one thing. Use that bait to try to grab his muzzle to enslave him and I shed no tears over your bleeding hand and trampled body.

[truthspeaker]

160. bingo

I was reading through some Lutheran magazine last year, and it talked about some Lutheran (ELCA) missionaries in the South Pacific. They helped the natives build shelter and sanitation, taught them some sustainable agriculture techniques, and helped many of them learn to read. Only after they had done all of that did they bring up Christianity. Most of the natives said "No, thanks, we have our own beliefs." The missionaries said "Cool."

Now if most missionaries acted like THAT we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

[dawn]

171. I have called missionaries bad on DU

And I probably shouldn't have said that, but I feel a deep sense of despair when I see them in Third World countries. They use humanitarian aid like a dangling carrot, and then try to convert the people to Christianity. Why can't they just give them aid?

I don't think there is an issue with sharing your beliefs with others, but the way missionaries try to convert, by making people believe they will go to hell if they continue with their faith of birth, is a bit twisted. And yes, I've had it done to me, although here in the USA. I don't think fear is the best way to sell a religion. And I don't think any religion should be forced on someone, nor should aid be given to people in exchange for a conversion attempt.

[Karenina]

176. I find the type of "missionaries"

on the thread I posted above, to be obnoxious and dangerous to themselves and others. And we have all been treated to 2 glaring examples on this thread of the behaviour that rankles and raises hackles. People are free to believe what they wish. I may engage them, challenge their thought processes, they may be able to convince me to consider a viewpoint I find foreign. I have the luxury of being able to limit my contact, i.e. sending the Jehovah's Witnesses to bother the next person. When survival basics are used to demand allegiance to religion, ESPECIALLY where people have established systems, I find it ABHORENT. And if your "faith" informs you the earth is 4000 years old, YOU WILL NOT be my child's science teacher.

[oldcoot]

196. It might help if you saw the original thread from LBN

and the article that started the thread in order to understand the context of this thread.

Here is the thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=287022.

Here is the article: http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/12/27/wirq27.xml&sSheet=/news/2003/12/27/ixhome.html

When I saw I saw this thread, I assumed that it was a response to the LBN thread.

[Blue_Chill]

97. Who is shoving their religion down your throat?

If you think that simply mentioning a religious group is the same as shoving it down your throat then I have to respectfully disagree with you.

[Sterling]

47. Some of you are not insane.

And are the salt of the earth. The others give you are very bad name.

[lumpy]

49. Holy Smokes

All we need now in this country is a religious war and the way it looks,it could happen. Thanks be to Bush and his faith based crap. I do remember the day, socially, when it was prudent to declare yourself a Christian and prejudice against Jews was rampant.

[TeacherCreature]

52. James you've got it

There are many people here who learned everything they know about religion in "World Religions 101", back in college. Just ignore them, the majority of the rest of us do.

[GreenPartyVoter]

60. There are lots of Followers of Jesus who vote progressive

no doubt about it.

[Karenina]

76. Those who don't cannot comprehend or

TOTALLY misunderstand His words, as they have been passed down IMHO. Muslims have more respect for Jesus than your average Paul-based fundie.

[Blue_Chill]

101. Muslims have more respect for Jesus

hehe, I read that and had to laugh.

[IrateCitizen]

136. Jesus is recognized as the #2 prophet by Muslims...

Second only to Mohammed. Having dealt with a devout Muslim through work -- someone who lived simply and put more value on helping those less fortunate than on accumulating wealth or power -- I would say that there are most DEFINITELY Muslims who show more respect for Jesus than so-called "Christians" who endorse the accumulation of wealth and waging of pre-emptive war.

But, then again, I guess that all depends on how you view Christ. If you view Jesus as a person who attempted to transform the world through his example of love and compassion -- or if you view him through the lens of deification, with your only requirement being to "accept him as your lord and savior".

It's a subjective judgement. From where I stand, I can see many people of other faiths who pay more respect to Jesus than countless so-called "Christians" out there. But from where you stand, the view may be quite different. But after all, isn't that the whole idea of what "personal faith" is all about?

[Blue_Chill]

165. nice rant

But I'm not going to get into who respected Jesus more, that is why I laughed about it. It's such an asinine statement to make.

[CalebHayes]

67. There are Republicans who hate Bush too.

[sujan]

68. wait

:boring:

[scarlet_owl]

69. I'm a deeply spiritual Christian and I'm also the most

liberal person I know. Sometimes I feel like people don't take me seriously or think I'm stupid because I'm religious. Being a Christian does not automatically mean being ignorant. Just like being an athiest does not automatically make you wise.

[mkultra]

86. six of one half dozen of the other

The pivot point between spirituality and atheism is pretty slim. Its either the feeling that a god exists or not. either way, it suprises me(as a spiritual person) that more christians arent democrats out of a basic compasion for thier fellow man. I am deeply religious(not christian) and very liberial. My one exception is abortion which is the only part of the democratic platform i disagree with. In any case, I understand how this issue can be seen as it is.

[JasonDeter]

70. Good for you!

The Democratic party needs to be reminded of this fact now and then.

[Malva Zebrina]

72. As an atheist I will gladly join arms with anyone who is committed to

preserving separation of church and state.

All else,regarding religion is not my business and I see it as belief--and that is fine with me.

As long as myself, and others like me, are not prejudiced upon by sanctimonius, hypocritical Christians, or Muslims, or any other I will be happy to simply preserve the right of separation of church and state.

Under Bush, he, the born again Christian murderer and war monger and stupid crusader, under the auspices of his Christain religion, I am observing a slow incursion of Christianity into that right of separation.

And, I hate to say it, knowing the sincere but perhaps naive, attitudes of many Christains here, but I honestly feel, that if the money is incentive enough, many of the Christain churches will have their palms extended toward Bush's faith based initiative. It certainly would be rather stupid to refuse it when every one else is getting this government faith based welfare. I mean it would be like the welfare Moms, getting money to feed their kids when they are not working.

Why do I think this? Because, for one thing, many of the Christain churches, especially the very large cathedral like Catholic churches have gone under so to speak. It is impossible to heat them or to care for them , especially when the congregation is being enticed by the more glitzy evangelical protestant churches--and, also, becuase the parochial schools are in dire need of money.

I know that sounds cynical, but, I cannot help it. I foresee, virtually all religions who are "in need" because of lack of a congregation that would support it, as vulnerable to Bush's carrot on a stick of faith based money.

Once that tax payer money is granted to churches they are, in effect, under the auspices of the government--and ther you have it--no more separation of church and state.

[zeemike]

75. I love atheist

I really do, because I use to be one and I understand where they come from. But only the atheist that has a sense of justice and a concern for humanity. And of the ones I have met most of them have had these qualities.
I call myself a follower f the teachings of Jesus rather than a Christian, and I can assure you that there is nothing in the teachings of Jesus that Atheist, Agnostics, Wickens, or Pagans have to worry about. Jesus condemned them not but saved it for the hypocrite.

[Malva Zebrina]

78. I know, and I was once a Christain, gone through the entire

parochial school system of the Catholic religion.

It does not matter much to me what religion anyone is or what beliefs they may treasure or hold sacred, really. I, myself, feel I have in some way, grown out of and transcended that, but I am probably older than many here and so have had more time to consider or to research , or to think about it relative to my life experience ,and, after all, what does it really matter to anyone on an individual basis? Not much in the entire scheme of things.

I also love humanity,and am extremely concerned about the survival of the human race--all of it, all over the world--not just here in the US. We are all human beings and we are all sharing that--we should try to love and understand each other, not make war on each other and kill each other, indiscriminately, because of differences in religious belief-or differences in color or culture. Or because of, in the case of the evil George Bush, greed and the arrogant confidence that we can do so simply because we are better equipted, militarily to do so.

There ARE common denominators inherent in all human beings and that is where we can connect.

-all religious belief, is imo, shaky, hypocritical, and not particularly conducive to human beings being enabled to love each other. I cannot tell you the hundreds of conversations I have had with the unyielding literalist, fundamentalist types and it is indeed, frustrating as well as threatening now, when I hear Bush saying the exact same things as these hard nosed, uncompassionate, extremist Christian fundamentalist literalists.

[zeemike]

88. I went to Catholic School myself

And I am 60 years old and made a full circle in terms of belief and not.
But no matter, I see little difference between us in terms of our values and common interest. And that in the end is what is important.

[Beaker]

187. For me, it was the Lutherans that tried to steal my mind-

and for a while, they even succeeded. I spent K-12 in Lutheran school, as well as sunday school and vacation Bible school.

Once I sat down and thought about it all however, I was compelled into atheism...nothing else makes any sense whatsoever.

BUT- I've never understood how anyone who claims to be a true Christian could be or vote Republican.

[LiberalFighter]

202. It depends on their definition of a Christian.

[JasonDeter]

79. I belong to a very large evangelical born again church

around 6000 strong and we would refuse the faith based inititive of bush because of the gov oversight that would go along with it. Most evangelical born again type churches would too.

[Malva Zebrina]

83. Jason I appreciate your input

and I sense that you really, sincerely are committed to that belief. :hi:

We know that Catholic Charities has for many years received tax payer money, as well as the Salvation Army. Those are two that we the tax payer have kept afloat and extant re their charitable works. Catholic Charities has remained pretty much above board as far as I know,yet it is, without doubt subject to the oversight of the state and does not seem to care too much either-- but we know that the Salvation Army is not democratic --refusing to hire homosexuals against the secular laws and also the SA has used tens of thousands of dollars it has accumulated while receiving tax payer money, in lobbying efforts to become above the civil law and the secular law of the state. It continues on with it's prejudicial practices, which are rooted in it's Christain religious beliefs, while receiving tax payer money and using that money for lobbying purposes to continue to enforce it's prejucicial hiring practices.

That is , to me, is insulting and outrageous-

[blondeatlast]

84. Absolutely they do.

many of the Christain churches will have their palms extended toward Bush's faith based initiative

snip

I know that sounds cynical, but, I cannot help it. I foresee, virtually all religions who are "in need" because of lack of a congregation that would support it, as vulnerable to Bush's carrot on a stick of faith based money.

Once that tax payer money is granted to churches they are, in effect, under the auspices of the government--and ther you have it--no more separation of church and state.


You are, if you will pardon the pun, right on the money with this, and the churches involved don't need to be "in need." It also eliminates doing good work's for goodness' sake. Eventually, greed will raise its vile little head--count on it.

I'm Presbyterian by culture, but attend UU. I have divorced myself from Presbyterianism because they have actively begun to seek these funds, with the attendant BS programs that work better when administrated by others, as well as creating BS parochial schools besides.

The argument you make is an excellent reason NOT to tax the churches, and to even further reinforce the separation clause (a strong item on the Interfaith Alliance's agenda, btw).

GWaBby and his fundie friends are actively destroying faith, not building it.

Believers of all types must join together to stop them. The enemy of my enemy is my friend, in this case.

[mkultra]

87. separation must be complete

I'm very religious and totally embrace the need for separation of church and state. I have also seen the steady creep of Christianity into government on a daily basis. This should frighten every American to death. Government is essentially authority. I refuse to allow others to dictate doctrine to me which is exactly whats happening.

[LanternWaste]

82. A lot of people believe they're right

Well, I'm a religious conservative and a political liberal. I don't really have any problems with religion or ideology (or even interest group) trying to convert me. Usually leads to at least one of us realizing a perspective we've never thought about before.

However, I do have problems with people who tell me I'm stupid because I'm a liberal, or blind because I'm a Christian, even if it's packaged in pleasant smiles or disingenuous leads.

People believe what people believe and a most people who believe in something (whether it's a political ideal or a religious conviction or a new social more) believe they're right. I don't tell people they're wrong because a handful of their group is obnoxious... I simply look for a member of the group who's not obnoxious and talk to them instead.

I'd be missing out on some major friends if I judged people soley on thier faith or lack of faith, or their politics or lack of politics (or a lifestyle, or an opinion, or a...well, you get the idea). :)

Sure their are a lot of intolerant Christians. Probably a lot of intolerant Muslims too, and intolerant Republicans, and intolerant athiests. It's got to be the person I'm friends with, not thier opinions or else I think I'd simply be posturing and waving my personal flag around as some bizarre rallying cry.

I do get a bizarre sense of disconnect sometimes. When I'm at church or fellowship, a lot of people ask me "How can you vote Democratic?" which I find just as silly as when I'm at my friend's art shows and they ask me, "How can you be a Christian?".

Severly edited for clarity (espicially in paragraph three)

[0007]

91. The term "Born Again Christians" is about as birdbrained as

"Partial Birth Abortions" -

[Blue_Chill]

99. Seriously, what did you hope to accomplish by posting that?

I would love to know the thought process at work here.

[truthspeaker]

104. because anyone can describe themself as a born-again Christian

so it doesn't really have any meaning.

Jimmy Carter calls himself a born-again Christian. So does Ralph Reed. Jimmy Carter is a great man who cas helped a lot of people. Ralph Reed is a greedy scumbag. Their professed religious beliefs tell us NOTHING about their characters. That's why it's foolish to make any judgments about a person based on what they say their religious beliefs.

Similarly, both Joseph Stalin and Carl Sagan were atheists. One was a psychotic murderous dictator, the other a great scientist and humanist. Again, impossible to make any judgements on their character based on their (lack of) religious beliefs.

[Blue_Chill]

105. So what?

Of course not all are the same but what the hell does that have to do with anything?

BTW "born again" means you changed your life based on Christianity, and thus were "born again" through Christ.

[truthspeaker]

107. I know what it means

What I'm saying is that if a politician tells you he's "born-again", he's probably doing it to whore for votes.

[Blue_Chill]

112. Once again, so what?

1- this thread wasn't about politicians but the entire born again class of people

2- everything politicians say is meant to "whore" votes. In case you didn't know that is what they do for a living.

[truthspeaker]

117. what I'm saying is the term is so meaningless

that it doesn't make sense to refer to one "born-again class of people", either to attack them or praise them. There are so many different kinds of Christians who call themselves born-again that it's a mistake to refer to them as if they were one coherent group.

[Blue_Chill]

129. It is not meaningless

In fact I told you it's meaning. Just because it doesn't fit the cookie cutter mold you wish it did does not change anything.

[truthspeaker]

178. again, I know what it is supposed to mean

But because anyone can claim the title and outsiders cannot tell the difference between their beliefs, it is useless to judge people based on whether or not they call themselves "born again".

[0007]

118. born again class of people?

...and what may that indeed mean? LOL!!

[Blue_Chill]

128. what may that mean?

I already explained it. Kthx.

[arwalden]

122. I've Always Seen It As A "Status Symbol" And A Way To Judge Others

who do not self-identify as "born again". It's certainly used that way by so many that this has become a common perception. It's a bit arrogant for the born-agains to presume that simply because they have "changed their lives" they are are any better than anyone else... whether they are christians or not. It's classism, and when they've convinced others that they indeed ARE a better class of christians... it's used as a tool to get others to aspire to the same flavor or christianity as they.

Personally, I don't care HOW they self-identify, nor do I care what they choose to call themselves. But it's a bit silly when they (and their defenders) try to deny exactly what it is that they do, how they feel superior to others, and how they use that self-importance and false superiority to influence others.

[Blue_Chill]

126. A Way To Judge Others?

Funny how your post is full of examples of you judging others, all while complainging about others doing the same thing.

[arwalden]

167. Oh Brother! You Know Better.

Where exactly have I passed judgment on others? I've merely pointed out how they consider themselves superior to "unsaved" and those who are not "born again".

Pointing out their arrogance and hypocrisy is not subjective. I have pointed out facts, not made a judgment. My observations are objective, both traits I describe and measurable and demonstrable.

Come on now... what are you trying to pull?

I'm smart enough to know the difference. I'm also smart enough to know that your reply is a total mis-characterization of my message and contains baseless accusations. I realize that some people have difficulty handling the unvarnished truth and that for many folks it can be embarrassing. I understand that... that's fine. The truth can hurt... I can tell that you were hurt and I'm sorry if my comments caused you any emotional distress.

Somehow I get the feeling that no matter how gently and politely the truth is spoken about them, the "born agains" who consider themselves to be superior will always be insulted. There's no getting around it.

Although this type of behavior is understandable there's really not a whole lot that I can do to stop you from typing those types of unfair replies. I won't even try. It's no skin off my nose.

-- Allen

EDIT: Grammar/clarity.

[LanternWaste]

179. Hmmm...

I'm born again and I certainly don't feel superior nor inferior to anyone. And I'm certainly not out to influence Catholics or Baptists or any other sect to aspire to my own beliefs. Indeed, I respect their beliefs and wish them the fullness of faith in thier own manner.


If it's a common perception, it becomes incumbent on the person interpreting or inferring the perception to become aware of the validity or invalidity of the statement. However, I don't believe it's a true one. I simply think it's a convenient broad-brush assumption.

About the only relevant change in my life after I was born again was my relationship with God. It has little *direct* influence on my relation to other people. And the indirect influence it has had is for all intents and purposes, a positive one built on hope, love and charity for any man, regardless of faith, culture or ideology.

I'm certainly not going to assume that a vocal minority of any political, religious or social interest group is in fact, speaking for the quiet majority. It's a bit preposterous to assume that the loudest person is the spoke person for any group in my opinion.

Truth be told, I'm not a minority on this either. Most born-again Christians are quiet about their faith in today's culture. We *are* aware that vocalizing our faith turns a lot of people off and makes us prime targets for labels.

And yes, the vocal minority discourages rather than encourages exchanges of ideas, but I'm no more responsible for their actions than you. If I did in fact, attempt to get them to change to the type of Christian behavior I believe is appropriate, then I *would* be guilty of the indictments you've stated....

Of course you have your opinions re: this. I simply thought I'd allow you an additional perspective you may not have had access to. No ill intent is meant nor am I trying to change your mind. :)

edited for clarity.

[arwalden]

201. Hi, LanternWaste!

Thanks for your contribution. Your viewpoint was interesting and well-stated and gave me something to think about. I'm glad you checked-in to share your thoughts!

-- Allen

[LiberalFighter]

203. Just saw something last night about that.

The medical profession says "Partial Birth Abortions" is not a medical term.

Thinking about that... "Partial Birth Abortions" are impossible. Either there is a birth or there isn't.

Antonyms for birth: death, death, decease, demise, dying

[LeahMira]

92. I won't, but one question...

So don't knock us all.

I won't, but one question... Do you believe that Jews, Muslims, and atheists can go to heaven while remaining steadfastly Jewish, Muslim, or atheist?

I've always found that the answer to that question is the bottom line, and I personally put more weight on that answer than I do on how you vote, although your Democratic vote is much appreciated. Others, of course, may feel otherwise. JMO.

[LanternWaste]

183. I'll bite....

For what it's worth (in that I'm not the person the question was directed at) I do believe that anyone of the Jewish faith will go to heaven. As for Muslim's, I have absolutely no idea since I don't know enough about that religion to establish any valid opinions. And I believe that Aethiests, by definition and by choice, will not.

Do those beliefs of mine belittle me to you in any way? I don't understand why you would consider my religious beliefs to be the bottom line when for all intents and purposes, the religious beliefs of others (or their lack of religious beliefs for that matter) hold no directing influence in how I perceive them, interact with them or how close they are to me.

No ill intent or disengenuous regard is meant by this. It's something that I believe and has absolutely no impact on how other people live their lives or what "really" happens to them after all is said and done and I think that's why my curiosity is peaked when you say, "I've always found that the answer to that question is the bottom line".

Again, my good will to you and anyone else is truthful and I sincerely hope that you do not interpret this in any manner other than "Best wishes to you and yours!" :)

[blondeatlast]

93. Hit and run--where's the original poster been lately?

I can't believe I fell for it myself; classic flamebait.

[Bertha Venation]

188. Need a Democratic follower of Christ to flame?

Here I am. Flame away. :)

[truthspeaker]

103. who's knocking you?

I only knock the creationists, gay-bashers, racists, and religious bigots - the 62% of self-described born-again Christians who voted for Bush.

[Blue_Chill]

106. You knock religious bigots?

Do you include those that aren't religious and are bigoted against those who are?

[truthspeaker]

108. yes

Would you like some dip for that chip on your shoulder?

[Blue_Chill]

114. heh

I'll have whatever dip you use on that creationist chip on your shoulder.

BTW - I'll be looking for examples of your answer to my question.

[truthspeaker]

116. creationists are the biggest threat to American education

Don't let their idiotic statements fool you into thinking they're harmless cranks. They are well funded, organized, and have influence with school boards and text book companies.

[Blue_Chill]

133. Wow, that's a impressive chip you've got there

Now go on and fight back those damn creationsists before they destroy us all.

[truthspeaker]

139. would you prefer America's children get a sub-standard science education?

[Blue_Chill]

147. I'd prefer they know the truth

like the fact a Catholic thought up the big bang theory that Hubble later put to paper. So that they may see that not all "creationists" are nuts that think dinosaurs are a test of faith.

I'd like them to know that religious persons did not uniformly believe the earth was flat until some hard working scientists forced them to do so.

basically I would like the anti-religion misinformation to stop.

kthx.

[truthspeaker]

153. I've never heard any of that anti-religion misinformation

And I don't think you understand what I mean by "creationists". Catholics are (generally) not creationists - the Vatican accepted the biological theory of evolution long ago, as did most mainstream Protestant denominations. I'm talking about people like Kent Hovind, Michael Behe, etc. who don't want evolution taught in schools, or want it taught alongside their "theories" that Genesis 1-2 is a literal, factual account of the origins of life on earth and the divergent species we see today.

[Blue_Chill]

158. You should have gone to my high school

Where I was taught exactly what I posted.

Also we have a common enemy in the type of creationist you pointed out. I feel that calling them creationist is incorrect however. I prefer to call them "ignorance spreading fundie morons"

[truthspeaker]

163. I think you are extrapolating what went on in your high school to the

rest of America.

Of course kids should learn how the Vatican treated Galileo, among other things, but it should never be simplified to the point of saying "Christianity is bad". (Just as it is dangersous simplistic to say "Christianity is good")

[Blue_Chill]

166. My point is if you only teach the bad

and never teach the good, you demonize the subject. Which is why when I am taught, religious people hated Galileo and never anything positive I find it to be the same as intentionally lying.

[truthspeaker]

170. that was my point too

But I've rarely seen Christianity demonized. Too often, ANY criticism of a particular Christian or Christian institution is interpreted as an attack on the whole faith.

[GOPBasher]

109. I think all Christians should vote for Dems.

I don't understand how any Christian is EVER a Republican. Looking at the teachings of Christ, the Republican economic philosophy is exactly opposite. The Right Wing has duped Christians into believing things that are very false.

[JesusNoRepublican]

182. Have you heard of www.JesusNoRepublican.Org

You sound like someone who would appreciated http://www.JesusNoRepublican.Org .

[blindpig]

140. everybody's got to believe something........

I believe I'll have another beer.

[Karenina]

162. I'm with you!

:toast:

[drdigi420]

168. I'll have another joint instead

booze is a bad drug, kills too many ppl

it's no wonder they use it in religious ceremonies

drunks will believe anything (except the truth)

[spanone]

192. Must be how Muslims feel. Not all fundamentalists.

All Jews are not Sharon supporters and on and on and on.