My sister in San Diego insists the Dem Party has told them

[aquart]

That if they vote NOT to recall Davis, then they CANNOT vote for the replacement candidate.

Can this disenfranchisement possibly be true?

[stopthegop]

1. not my understanding....

sounds VERY unlikely

[DUreader]

25. MASSIVE MISINFO ALERT!!! PEOPLE NEED TO GET THIS STRAIGHT!!!

stopthegop, you are correct

I have not seen one link to a source supporting this

[Dem2dend]

32. Let's think about it

If you vote to retain him but then pick someone to replace him, the replacement could get more votes than Davis gets to stay and he's out.

[SoCalDem]

2. I think you would have to be able to vote..

otherwise why even HAVE a ballot???..

That may be the disinformation that is being pushed so that people don't even bother to vote :(

They might figure that if they don;t get to even choose the lesser of 15 evils, why bother :(

[salin]

36. but isn't a vote NO on recall = to a vote FOR Davis?

Seems to me it is an election not a recall - and the no = a vote for Davis.

[xxqqqzme]

3. the ballot choices will B

recall Gov Davis - NO

vote 2 replace - names here

It is a REcall not an election.

Davis WON the election 7 months ago.

[never cry wolf]

8. it would appear that

a vote NOT to recall essentially is a vote FOR davis. so you can't vote for davis AND his replacement. makes sense to me.

[DUreader]

15. That is NOT what the law states

only that one must vote "for or against" recall to be eligible

to vote for a replacement

See the reply on election law below

[Brian Sweat]

17. Wrong

This would mean that Davis nees a majority of the votes to remain in office, but any challanger would only need a plurality of the votes not cast to retain Davis.

In other words. Davis needs 50%+ of the votes. If Davis received 49.9% of the votes a challenger would only need to get more of the remaining 50.1% of the votes than any of the other challengers. With the number of challengers involved, that could be less than 10% of the total vote.

The ballot will look something like this.



Do you wish to recall Govenor Grey Davis.

Yes

No


In the event that Govenor Grey Davis is recalled select the candidate you wish to replace him.

1. Idiot Number One

2. Idiot Number Two

3. Idiot Number Three



My understanding is that you have to vote in the first part to vote in the second, but you can vote either way in the first part and still vote in the second.

[DUreader]

20. Yes, there seems to be some massive misinfo about this

Apparrently MWO has spread some of it

[DagmarK]

4. Could they have said...........

If you don't vote in the Davis recall, you can't vote for the replacement candidate? (which still doesn't make sense......)

[GregW]

5. She is correct

If VoteForRecall then
ChooseCandidate() 'No Dems running so a Pug wins
Else
' Go home and wait to see if recall succeeds
' If it does, a Pug wins
' If not, Gray stays
End If

[NewYorkerfromMass]

11. Yes

the NYTimes had an op-ed on this yesterday. There is a law suit on the constitutionality of it.

[Terwilliger]

22. ummmm...wrong

You can vote YES or NO and still choose a candidate

[el_gato]

6. So this sounds like the scenario

where some dems would vote yes for the recall and then select their candidate and all repubes would vote yes for the recall and then select their candidates and alot of dems would vote no and then not get to contribute to the votes for a dem replacment candidate.

In other words this would radically reduce the amount of dem votes.

Sounds like a serious scam to me!

[gasperc]

21. yes, that's why some Dems want a fallback

I think Davis can beat the recall, but some think they should play it safe and give dems a fallback. But that caves into the repugs power grab and all the repugs could focus their fire on one dem, plurality still wins so the fallback option could backfire and lose. I met Gray Davis a couple of times, he's bland and dry but he is a good person. Nothing like the evil in Washington. Governing California is tough, I've lived in the south and it's night and day different from the north.

[DUreader]

23. If You Vote 'NO Recall" you STILL get to vote a replacement

[Ediacara]

7. I think that's right

I think the ballot will be built something like this:

1) Should Governor Gray Davis be recalled? yes/no

2) If yes, who should he be replaced with? Huffington/Riordin/Issa/etc...

Davis could get 49% of the vote and be replaced by someone who only gets 14% of the vote, as long as recall yes gets more votes than recall no.

[xxqqqzme]

10. Xactly stated!

thank U 4 being concise.

U get one vote - no means 'no U don't want 2 recall Davis'

OR

U vote 4 the rethug candidate

There will B no other dem candidates on the ballot.

I spent last Friday registering voter's & Xplaining this 2 dazed 'n confused Californians. The usual reply after the Xplanation was 'but that doesn't make sense!' No kidding! Why do U think the rabid right rethug R pushing the recall?

[DUreader]

12. LINK? THIS IS BULLSH*T WITHOUT A LINK!

Sample Ballot

Anything?

[Brian Sweat]

19. Well, this is clearly a violation of the equal protection clause.

If it is true.

[Terwilliger]

24. NO

You can vote YES or NO on the recall and STILL vote for any candidate on the ballot.

You are right that someone with very few votes could win the governorship.

[Mr. McD]

9. It will be two parts.

In the first part, voters will vote for or against the recall. In the second part, the voter may select a replacement candidate. If a majority of the voters vote “yes” on the first question, then the recall is successful, and the replacement candidate who gets the most votes is elected for the unexpired term of office.

California Secretary of State

[displacedtexan]

13. it's true!

The vote will be a Yes/No on "Do you want Davis recalled?"

This is from mediawhoresonline.com:

If you vote "Yes", you will then be allowed to choose from a list of candidates that includes anyone with $3500 and 65 signatures. This will be a big list.

Now let's say 55% of the voting public says "Yes", giving a majority to the recall of Gray Davis. Then let's say this "majority" goes on to vote for who they want to replace Davis like so:

54% - Tom
27% - Dick
13% - Harry
5% - Jane

Tom wins. Even though the 45% of voters who chose "No" on the recall were prevented from choosing the new governor. This is because a "No" vote on the recall will not be the same as voting FOR Gray Davis, which is the intention of a "No" vote (Voting against recalling Gray Davis is the same as a vote of confidence in him). If a "No" vote were the same as voting for Davis, the percentages would break down like so:

45% - Gray Davis
30% - Tom
15% - Dick
7% - Harry
3% - Jane

evil GOP bastards are happy that math scores suck and that dems are too nice to fight back!

[DUreader]

14. It's NOT True: Findlaw article on California Recall Election

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=80087&mesg_id=80087&page=15


TahitiNut (1000+ posts)
Fri Jul-25-03 03:45 PM
Original message
Findlaw article on California Recall Election

Edited on Fri Jul-25-03 03:54 PM by TahitiNut

I tire of uninformed speculation and partisan rumor-mongering that too often passes as news and
discussion. The FindLaw site is a resource I use when I want cogent and focused information. This is no
exception. This article ( http://writ.news.findlaw.com/amar/20030725.html ) offers some well-informed and cogently discussed perspectives that're nearly
impossible to harvest from the tabloidized press.

One of the speculations/rumors I wanted to chase down was whether a person's vote on a replacement
Governor was preconditioned on how they voted on the recall itself. My immediate reaction, of course,
was that such a condition would be a violation of Constitutional protections of both ballot secrecy and,
in effect, establishing a partisan litmus test on one's right to vote. Indeed, if one were to interpret a
"no" vote on the recall as a vote for Davis, then what's the difference between a recall election and an
election for governor that placed a majority hurdle for a single candidate but a plurality hurdle for all
others? (This seems to me to be a continuing substantive question.) It seems I was right. Nonetheless,
there are still some questions of Constitutionality that remain to be resolved before this election can be
held as defined in Californaa Election Law.

Of some significance is California Election Code §11382 ( http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cacodes/elec/11381-11386.html ) which provides that "No vote cast in the recall
election shall be counted for any candidate unless the voter also voted for or against the recall of
the officer sought to be recalled." Now, how would they possibly enforce this provision if the recall
question were on a separate ballot, or in a separate election, from the replacement election?? (What
the hell were they smoking?)

So, the question of whether a vote against the recall precludes a vote for one of the substitute
candidates is answered "No". More interestingly, however, this particular section my be ruled
unconstitutional in its entirety as establishing a voting eligibility criterion that's politically biased. Such
a ruling would be very interesting in its effects.

Remember, this election is, for all intents and purposes, a rerun election for Governor in which the
winner of the prior election is now required to obtain a majority of votes, while the challengers are
merely required to obtain a plurality of the votes.

Democracy is in its death throes. Where's IRV when we need it?

[NewYorkerfromMass]

16. It IS true. Am I missing something?

If you vote NOT to recall you cannot vote for a replacement.

[DUreader]

18. It is NOT True. Yes you are missing something.

Read my post, better yet click the du link to TN's thread


"also voted for or against the recall"


FOR or AGAINST

Also read the legal challenge threads in LBN

The sole criteria for choosing a replacement is whether you voted

on the recall and that is being called an unconstitutional requirement

[meti57b]

26. you can vote NO on recall and still vote for a replacement

You are EXACTLY CORRECT!! I AGREE with you.

Currently, you are required to vote either yes or no on the RECALL issue, in order to vote on a replacement.

You can vote YES to recall and vote for a replacement.

You can vote NO to recall and then vote for a replacement.

But you have to vote YES or NO on whether to RECALL, in order to vote for a replacement. (And yes, the issue going to court, is that you should not have to take a YES or NO position on the recall to get to vote for a replacement.)

It's okay if the rest of the country is confused on this, but I sure hope California voters are not confused.

[Benevolent_Rabbit]

27. What makes sense is this

If you vote not for a recall, that is effectively a vote for Davis. If you vote for a recall, you are voting no confidence in Davis and choose a replacement. Why on earth would you choose a replacement if you want Davis to remain?

edit: recent link clarifying. I don't get the logic, but there it is.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=X&oi=news&start=0&num=2&q=http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/politics/recall/20030729-1034-ca-recall-court.html

[Brian Sweat]

28. No, that makes no sense at all.

It creates a situation where Davis needs more than 50% of the vote, but a challenger would only need 5%.

[meti57b]

29. it definitely makes NO sense at all, but that is the way it is.

The recall law is ambiguous and not well-written.

And, that is the huge problem .... Davis does need more than 50% of the vote to win but the challenger needs only a small percentage to win. Thus, 5% for the challenger wins over 49% for Davis.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

30. Davis' name needs to be on there with everyone elses.

If all of the above is true.

[meti57b]

33. the law precludes Davis being a candidate (or replacement).

The whole thing totally sucks.

I also do not like the Democratic Party approach to this of not running a replacement candidate. Apparently ballot initiatives are most popular when they first start out and "recall" is ahead at 51% right now, that is expected to go down. It is also said that Davis is an extremely good politician. But my opinion is that it is foolhardy to not run a replacement.

And yes, watch the court challenges. They define the issue. I like the challenge that if Davis is recalled then Lieutenant Governor Cruz Bustamante (D) becomes governor.

[Dem2dend]

34. Good point

That way, those who don't want to recall him can still vote him back in if he is recalled.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

35. It is not a democratic process

I now understand the problems of this ballot. It is completely undemocratic.

[meti57b]

37. exactly!!!!!

The same could be said of the state budget not passing. There needs to be a 2/3rds majority vote to pass the budget. Naturally, the republicans are voting against it and Davis is getting blamed for it's not passing.

What really hacks me up, is by now, I expected to be working and contributing money to get duhbie out of office and here we go having to work plus more money to keep the governor's office in Democratic hands.

[w4rma]

31. I think the California courts are trying to figure that out (n/t)

[qb]

38. I mean no offense, but if there is this much confusion here,

California talk radio must be a regular circus.

[qb]

39. This thread in LBN clears up one part

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=40897&mesg_id=40897&page=