What is it with people who support capital punishment? (a rant)

[Padraig18]

I just got back from school, and I'm both angry and frustrated; once again, I let myself be drawn into a debate about capital punishment, and once again I lost my cool. *sigh*

I adamantly oppose capital punishment, though I have far more reason than would most to support it, given the circumstances of my parents' deaths; nonetheless, I do oppose it, and here's why:

First and foremost, capital punishment is not 'justice', or even a rude approximation of it, insofar as the word has relevance to me personally. As I see it, justice is meant to put right again some wrong that has been done to you. How, pray tell, will taking the lives of the persons who murdered my parents restore to me so much as a single atom of their beings that I can hold, or look to for comfort? The short answer is that it can't.

If it could give me 5 more minutes after supper on a warm June evening sitting beside my Daddy and asking him the sorts of questions that small boys ask their daddies after supper, I would spring the trap door on the gallows myself. If it could give me a half hour at the kitchen table having my Mam drill me in my multiplication tables while she kneaded bread or made pies, I would fire the bullets into their chests as they stood bound and blindfolded against a prison wall. But it can't.

All capital punishment can do is to utterly destroy the life fabric of yet more families in an obscene and atavistic manner, and throw bleeding corpses at my family's feet as though we were hungry animals awaiting meat, and tell us that 'justice has been done'. How could you believe for so much as a nano-second that that would represent justice in our eyes? Is there some greater need we do not understand that is served by yet more deaths, more heartbreak, more wasted lives?

Would you paint Michaelangelo's David in garish colors, or dress it in a hot-pink t-shirt and flip-flops, and say that you had improved upon it, or 'done justice' to it? Why, then, would you could consider killing a man--- or several men--- an affirmation of the life of a gentle giant of a man who never once lifted his hand in anger to another living soul, or to a woman whose soft, sweet voice and shy smile could melt the heart of a bailiff? Such an act would profane their memories as surely as splashing blood upon their headstone would violate the peace and sanctity of the place where they now rest.

No, if it is justice you seek in our names, make those men responsible stand in the dock of an Irish courtroom and hear all 14 of us children say, one by one, "I forgive you". Let them feel the weight of guilty sin resting upon their hearts for the remainder of their days, and live with the knowledge that they have utterly failed in their attempt to make us hate them, to make us become people like them. Do whatever else you feel you must, buts pare their lives and what remain of their families' lives and leave 'justice' to the One True Judge who knows men's hearts. He will not err, I assure you.

"Thou shalt not kill" is not a suggestion, it is a commandment.


Do you 'get it' now?

/rant off

[rbnyc]

1. I wish more people thought like you.

I agree with you 100%. You're an inspiraetion.

[bif]

2. Yeah, they outta be shot!

I agree with you. I'm proud to be from the first state to ban capital punishment. Over 140 years ago!

[Catholic Sensation]

4. I'm in favor of torture over the death penalty

:evilgrin:

[gyopsy]

3. I'm glad

Padraig18 I agree with your statements. I also applaud you for understanding that even though the bastards that murdered your parents are sick, murdering them will accomplish nothing for you.

Pretty amazing. I'm against the death penalty now but if someone ever killed one of my family members...I don't know. Maybe I might change my tune.

Congrats to you for sticking to your beliefs even through tough times.

[Padraig18]

5. I cannot affirm the sanctity of life by asking that another to be killed.

It just doesn't work that way...

[mitchum]

69. John Stuart Mill disagreed with you

That was the crux of his argument when the architect of liberal humanism argued in favor of capital punishment.

Padraig18, I am so sorry for your loss.

[DarkPhenyx]

6. Yup. I get it.

However I will say this. There comes a point when justice isn't something that can be acheived. Nor is rehabilitation. Charles Manson comes to mind. Yet Charlie gets to sit safe and sound for the rest of his life, which is going to be a lot longer in jail with the three squares and medical treatment better than most people can afford easily. :shrug: I dunno, maybe it's the pragamtist in me, but everyonce in a while you end up with someone that it's more humane to just shoot. It's definately a damn site cheaper.

I don't believe in the 10C's. I've got a different karmic path to follow. THey are great rules to live by, for the most part, but there are times when it just isn't practical or even sane. Those are the points where you have to go "spiritual off-roading" as one person put it to me recently, and figure it out on your own. Not all of us will have the same "best solution", but we all need to arrive at one that works best in society.

[VelmaD]

15. Well, think of it like this for people like Manson...

it isn't up to you or I to apportion "karma" to Charlie. It's up to the universe. If he was supposed to be dead by now, he would be. But he isn't and I figure the universe has left him here for a reason (or severeal reasons for that matter). We cannot know what those reasons are. Every time we put someone to death we take on the responsibility and karma that comes along with that action. Maybe sometimes it is worth taking that karma on...but I'd feel better about it if I thought most people at least thought about it. I don't believe most people give it much thought.

[DarkPhenyx]

22. So, karmically speaking, what form would his death take?

Might it not be lethal injection or an electric chair?

[VelmaD]

29. Yes it could...but...

my point was that most people don't think about the karma we're incurring when we execute people. That's all.

When Charlie is suppose to die...he will whether we execute him or he gets knifed in prison or dies of natural causes in his 90s. You know how I feel about karma and fate. But when we are acting as implements of karma I feel like we owe it to people to think things through.

[bloom]

17. It's not cheaper to execute...

the appeals, etc. cost more than locking them up for life.



...

[DarkPhenyx]

23. Which is something else I'd fix.

But I'm not in charge of these things.

[bloom]

26. and the less that is spent

the more likely innocent people will be executed.

You're OK with that?

[DarkPhenyx]

32. I wouldn't sleep any differently...

...than I do now.

But it does bear repeating that I said it was one of the things I'd fix.

[bloom]

39. I suppose you would sleep differently

if you were one of the innocent ones convicted.

-Like in the ground, eh?




:shrug:

[DarkPhenyx]

41. Depends on how long it takes...

...for the spirit to recycle itself. I'm kinda hoping to come back as a drop of rain. I need the break.

[VelmaD]

27. Fix how?

Reducing appeals? Cutting down the time people are on death row?

Tell that to the people who have been released from death row since the advent of DNA technology that proved them innocent.

There's a reason we make it take so long to execute people. It's a tacit admission that juries and judges get it DEAD WRONG sometimes.

[DarkPhenyx]

30. OK, I'll make sure and tell them.

Give me their phone numbers.

[VelmaD]

35. I know you got my point Phe...

how many of those people would be DEAD now (despite the fact that they were innocent) if there wasn't a lengthy appeals process or if the execution process didn't take so long? And are you saying that would be ok?

[DarkPhenyx]

37. You know my view on a great many thing.

Many of which you know I will not go into here.

[VelmaD]

42. Yup, but that didn't answer my questions.

Although in all honesty they were rhetorical questions designed mostly to point out how what you said sounds to some people. But you knew that. :)

Always remember that my opinion is informed by where I live. Texas executes more people each year than the vast majority of countries on Earth. I am under NO illusions...I'm pretty much sure we've executed innocent people. We've executed people who spoke no English and did not have an interpretter at their trial. We've executed people who were minors when they committed their crime. We've executed the mentally retarded. We've executed people whose lawyer slept during their trial. And we've executed a hell of a lot more poor people and people of color than their percentage of the population.

[bloom]

43. What I heard

was that the color of the victim was what most affected ones propensity to be executed.

Does that seem true to you?

[VelmaD]

47. That is a part of it...

but moreso if the accused and the victim are of different races. The socio-economic status of the accused and the victim plays a role too. As does, where the trial is held.

[DrWeird]

20. So it's about money to you?

Tell you what. Your tax dollars can go to blowing up civilians in Iraq, my tax dollars can go towards prison and rehabilitation.

[DarkPhenyx]

21. Part of it is money.

Sure. You'll notice I said when there is no chance of rehabilitation. Try not to be completely reactionary, ok?

[VelmaD]

25. Would be nice if we actually were rehabilitating them

I work in the juvenile prison system in Texas. We do have a focus on rehabilitation with the minors here. But I also know that our adult prison system does not. In most places your tax dollars are going to warehouse people and whenever the budget needs to be cut one of the first things to go are programs that help rehabilitate adult prisoners. An example: they've slashed money for providing prisoners here with the basic education they need to get a job when they get out.

I agree with your basic point...that the money could be better spent at home. But don't delude yourself that your tax dollars are going to rehabilitate people. Not under a repub administration.

[DarkPhenyx]

33. Hell, in many cases not under a Dem Admin either. n/t

[VelmaD]

36. Unfortunately too true...however,

given that there's usually not such a lousy economy and budget deficits under Democratic administrations...you don't have the same urgency for cutting things. (Remember, I'm in Texas. Where we had a budget surplus under Ann Richards that suddenly disappeared when Shrub came into office...sound familiar?)

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

67. Charles Manson is worth being studied by science.

Besides, you can put him to lay asphalt with the rest of the chain gang. For the state, please -- no private companies involved.

[SayitAintSo]

7. Padraig18 - that was beautiful... You are an inspiration

I wish more people saw it your way

[Burma Jones]

8. Well, the correct translation is thou shalt not Murder

If the Ancient Hebrews couldn't kill, most of Deuteronomy would be worthless.....

Personally, I don't believe in the "One True Judge" so, I want to see killers removed from society for good. Since the DP is flawed in its execution, I am against it. BUT, I am not against it on moral grounds, only that since we make mistakes, we can't put people to death.

If I am certain that a killer would NEVER see the light of day again, I am happy. If life in prison meant just that, I am happy. Personally, I am all for life without parole, in solitary confinement.

[izzie]

9. Also if you believe in JC how can you want this?

I never fight this fight. People are so sure they have a right to kill some one they are as bad as the one that did the killing in the first place.

[Catholic Sensation]

13. I made that point to my chrisitian friend

I said Jesus didn't support the death penalty. He said he preached about it and why it's good. We did a google search and all the quotes we got were Jesus preaching about the evils of retribution. I believe Roman Catholics are now supposed to be against the death penalty officially or something.

[leftyandproud]

10. I don't know your situation...but imagine..

Do you really feel good knowing that your tax dollars will be caring for him in prison for the next 60 years?...paying for his rehabilitation, and possibly even an eventual release?

This is one argument...I know if someone killed a family member, I would want them dead..no question. If I caught them in the act, I'd do my best to end it right there.

Aside from giving victim's families closure, an argument could also be made that capital punishment is the best deterrant around...It has a 100% success rate in murderers/rapists from victimizing more innocent people..and if we applied capital punishment more often, to the point where criminals KNOW they will be facing certain death if they kill someone, I think they would think twice before committing these crimes. As it is today, even with a conviction, criminals have a good 10-15 years of appeals, and millions in tax money will be spent keeping them fed & clothed. I dunno about you..but the thought of a fraction of my paycheck going to keep the murderer of my child alive would make me ill 24/7

[bloom]

18. Capital punishment is not a deterrant

Murder rates have been compared with states that have it/states that don't... countries that have it/countries that don't.


It also doesn't save money - as I mentioned above.

[leftyandproud]

34. "capital punishment doesn't save money"...

BECAUSE the system is f*cked up today, and killers have a 20 year appeal process. If DNA testing is used and guilt is proved beyond a resonable doubt, they could end it within 24 hours...take the murderer into a room, use a $50.00 shot and he goes to sleep permanently. End of story.

[DarkPhenyx]

38. It could be.

We jsut don't do it right.

Dosen't help that the prison system is a joke too.

[pinto]

11. What a fine statement. Sounds like you came to this point the hard way.

Thanks for the post.

[Padraig18]

14. It took a long time to get 'there'.

What I finally came to understand was the power that hating those men gave them over me, and over our family. It took many years to finally understand that, and in understanding it, set myself free.

[qb]

12. Eloquent, touching statement.

I have always approached this issue from the standpoint of the risk of executing the innocent. You have made a clear moral case that holds up even if all of the current "problems" are fixed (not that they could ever be completely fixed).

[eyesroll]

16. Beautifully said, Padraig18

Too many people don't want justice -- they want revenge. We package capital punishment in such a neat, sterile package -- make the revenge "palatable," I suppose.

Today's the anniversary of Oklahoma City, and I do wonder what we don't know, and can never know, because we've already executed one of the few people who truly knew what happened. Revenge beat justice; McVeigh won, in a very real sense.

I don't know the circumstances of your parents' deaths, and I can't imagine how horrible it was for you and your family. But please know you're in my thoughts. :hug:

[sangh0]

19. Here's a link for you

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/19/national/19DNA.html

Study Suspects Thousands of False Convictions

A comprehensive study of 328 criminal cases over the last 15 years in which the convicted person was exonerated suggests that there are thousands of innocent people in prison today.

Almost all the exonerations were in murder and rape cases, and that implies, according to the study, that many innocent people have been convicted of less serious crimes. But the study says they benefited neither from the intense scrutiny that murder cases tend to receive nor from the DNA evidence that can categorically establish the innocence of people convicted of rape.

[bloom]

24. I appreciate your post

It is more meaningful coming from victim's families who do not desire revenge. I can believe intellectually that capital punishment is wrong - but I haven't had a circumstance to challenge that belief.

[forgethell]

28. I, on the other hand,

support capital punishment. I think that it is the only way to possibly cause the perpetrators to get some idea of the horror that they have done. Justice is not about 'putting right' some wrong done to you. At least, not entirely. How could it be? It's also about closure and balance, 'revenge', if you will, although I do not think that it is true revenge. But the justice system is set up to take revenge out of individual hands and place in the hands of government where, hopefully at least, a person is shown to be guilty before he get punished.

It is also about deterence. Yeah, yeah, I know, "studies show that c.p. does not deter murder." Studies show whatever the authors are determined to find out, at least in the so-called 'social sciences'. Hellfire, man. Even harder sciences like medicine and biology are prone to fraud. It's harder to get away with in the hard sciences like physics. But 'social scientists' can prove whatever they want. Common sense says that it will not deter every murder, but it will deter some, hence it is worthwhile.

No, if it is justice you seek in our names, make those men responsible stand in the dock of an Irish courtroom and hear all 14 of us children say, one by one, "I forgive you". Let them feel the weight of guilty sin resting upon their hearts for the remainder of their days, and live with the knowledge that they have utterly failed in their attempt to make us hate them, to make us become people like them. Do whatever else you feel you must, buts pare their lives and what remain of their families' lives and leave 'justice' to the One True Judge who knows men's hearts. He will not err, I assure you.

"Thou shalt not kill" is not a suggestion, it is a commandment.

If the offender does not feel guilt, forgiving him is not going to make him feel it. The commandment is actually, "Thou shalt not commit murder". Killing in war, for example, or self-defense, or defense of another, or accidentally, or of animals in need, or execution is not murder, and is not forbidden

Romans 13
1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

[Padraig18]

31. 'Wrath' does not require more bloodshed.

As I said, do whatever else with them you feel you must, but do not profane my parents' memories with yet more bloodshed. In no way does that equal 'justice'.

[forgethell]

45. Well,

I'm sorry for your loss. But I fail to see any 'profanation' is taking the case through the justice system, and executing them if found guilty. And in any event, others do NOT feel the same way as you do. They feel that anything less than the death penalty would profane their loved ones death. Perhaps we should do as they do in Saudi Arabia where the convicted person can be pardoned by the victim's family??

But remember, according to our legal system, it's not really about the victim. If you don't believe me, just get yourself caught up in it sometime. It's about society. It's always the 'State of XYZ' vs. 'Accused Murderer'. So how you feel, or how I feel, doesn't really matter to the state.

[ulysses]

51. ...

So how you feel, or how I feel, doesn't really matter to the state.

We, the whole lot of us, *make up* the state.

[forgethell]

52. True,

but do you care what your red corpuscles are thinking at any given moment. We are the state only at election time, the rest of the time the politicians and unelected judges and beaureaucrats are the state, or at least the working part of it. and they don't give a damn about how we feel. It's set up that way, so they can approach these questions from a non-emotional direction.

[ulysses]

58. my red corpuscles?

My body is not a democratic construct, and neither is yours.

We are the state only at election time

I would deny that. The levers of power are necessarily put at a remove in a representative democracy, sure, but we do not constitute the state only at 2- or 4-year intervals. Thus the "representative" portion of the deal.

[forgethell]

62. OK, You

let me know the next time the judge cares whether or not you're feeling comfortable with your $200 speeding ticket. Or the IRS gives a damn about you, period. Or the lawyer of the guy suing your socks off is worried about how you are going to pay your bills. All I am saying is that the people in control don't care about you. It doesn't matter if they are Democrat or Repuke. they're really all the same in the end. They're in it for them, not us.

There seems to be a large supply of literal-mindedness out there today.

[ulysses]

65. one lives under the law

but the law is not sacrosanct. No, I obviously don't have control over that judge, nor should I. That doesn't make me any less a part of the state.

All I am saying is that the people in control don't care about you.

Much agreed. They care (or should care) about the state, of which I am a part.

[Frangible]

40. I don't agree

First of all, there's no proof of God, let alone one in particular, so quoting religious stuff isn't gonna win an argument with me.

Next off, morality is defined in a societal context, and yes, capital punishment is something the majority of Americans view as morally acceptable.

Forgive? Could you look Adolf Hitler in the eye and say "I forgive you"? Oh hell no. It's not like he'd ever be repetent; he deserved death and that's all there was to it.

Oh, and I've got one for you; why is it that people who oppose the death penalty always support abortion so vigorously?

So lemme see if I've got this straight... killing human scum who's mass murdered people = bad, killing your own flesh and blood as it's being born because it might be "inconvient" to you = good?

That's messed up.

But hey, my opinion doesn't matter. As I said, morality is defined in the context of a society. And society views both the death penalty and abortion as acceptable. Who am I to disagree?

[Padraig18]

46. I've neber mentioned abortion.

Frankly, you don't know what my views are on that subject, so I would ask you not to assume more knowledge than you actually have.

[Frangible]

50. Did I state they were your views? No.

So why are you inferring something I didn't say? I was speaking in general, you know, talking about society and all.

[Padraig18]

53. Glad you cleared that up. n/t

[Frangible]

56. Can I ask you one question though?

What happened in your past that makes you have so strong of an opinion about this? If you don't want to answer that's fine, I understand.

[Padraig18]

57. My parents were murdered in a bombing in Ulster.

I understand both murder and terrorism in a very personal way.

[Frangible]

59. this one?

Northern Ireland suffered its worst-ever terrorist atrocity yesterday when a car bomb ripped the heart out of Omagh as the small Co Tyrone town prepared to celebrate its carnival. At least 27 Catholics and Protestants were left dead and at least 190 injured, tearing a bloody hole in the peace process.

The toll included at least 15 women, one of whom was pregnant, and an 18-month-old toddler, torn apart by the blast.

Well, you certainly have conviction of belief then-- I wouldn't be so forgiving as you of the people who did it.

[Padraig18]

61. No, it was several years before Omagh.

I didn't come to forgiveness easily or quickly. It took a lot of time and soul-searching to get to that point, but for both my own peace of mind and for the good of my soul, I had to let go of the hate. Hate is what killed my parents, and to cling to it would be an insult the memories of the peaceful lives they themselves lived, and sought to help others to live.

[Champ]

63. Nevermind

[Padraig18]

44. Something to think about...

One of my favorite books is "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance", by Robert Pirsig. A quote from the introduction will forever remain with me; it was written by the author after his son Christopher was stabbed to death on a street in San Francisco:

"...What had to be seen was that the Chris I missed so badly was not an object, but a pattern, and although that pattern included the flesh and blood of Chris, that was not all there was to it. The pattern was larger than Chris and myself, and related to it in ways that neither of us understood completely and neither of us was in complete control of.

Now Chris's body, which was a part of that larger pattern, was gone. But the larger pattern remained. A huge hole had been torn out of the center of it, and that was what caused all the heartache. The pattern was looking for something to attach to and couldn't find anything...."

By habit, Life wills itself to continue--- this I know for a fact. We, the living, are in the miraculous position of being able to shape *how* it is to continue. As we do--- as we reweave the rent patterns of our lives--- might it not be best to put aside the terrifying images and the numbing, unfathomable horror of that day?

As for myself, I can not fill the hole that remains in my life with anger, with hatred, fear or suspicion; the wound in the pattern of my life will not be mended with the glue of warm, red blood, nor the void in it filled with the broken and shattered bodies of the men who murdered my parents.

Bloody revenge will not bring back the light to that dark place their murders branded into my soul. Hatred is the poison which created that such an enormous, gaping hole in my life; therefore, I will let its bitter cup pass from me untouched, its contents vile, nauseating and unworthy of the lips of civilized men and women.

[ulysses]

48. rant on, Paddy.

Rant on. :thumbsup:

[Padraig18]

49. I will.

:hug:

[EstimatedProphet]

54. Very well put

I am going to bookmark this one. I have always been opposed to capital punishment on the grounds that the government can never be truly sure that the accused party is responsible, and if someone is executed that is innocent they can't be brought back.

[Champ]

55. I agree

I'd rather be killed then spend the rest of my life in prison. Plus 1 person that is executed for a crime s/he didn't committ is one too many. Who wants to sit in a cell for 20+ hours a day only free time you have is time to exercise and other stuff(I'm not exactly sure when you get free time in prison) for the rest of their life, if I wouldn't even appeal. I'd say pull the switch. Prison is hell, I know many people who have been there. Florence to be exact.

[Deja Q]

60. Hot pink shirt?

Michelangelo was gay, but I digress.

Under certain, rarified, circumstances, do I support the death penalty. And one has to be 100% spot-on, otherwise I'm against it.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

64. Like you, murder has touched my life

I was witness to a murder of my best friend when I was 17. I still do not and will never believe in the death penalty.

I get it. The state becomes as uncivilized and barbaric as the perp when the state murders.

[Padraig18]

66. I'm sorry, lass.

You DO get it. :hug:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

68. Funny thing is he was shot with a sawed off shotgun

And while I don't and won't own a gun and do get a bit preturbed by fanatical RBKA's who can't then tell me why the second amendment wouldn't let them own a nuke based on their logic, I don't have an issue with law abiding gun owners either..although I haven't shot one since he was killed.

BTW my belated sympathies regarding your parents. I never knew they were murdered. I can't think of a more shocking loss.

[Padraig18]

70. Thank you.

:hug:

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

71. I actually don't feel that strongly towards people who support D.P. ...

...until they start referring to countries/states that do NOT have D.P. as some kind of aberration, like "Spain denies justice to its citizens!" or some such drivel.

Either that, or the ones who like to party over executions. THESE ones are truly sick.