I'm a Christian and a Progressive - You have a problem with that?

[LynneSin]

My faith is not some "Fantasy Makeup Story". It's who I am and what I believe in. My faith and my understanding of the bible including the life and teachings of Jesus make me the progressive that I am.

Christianity, on a whole, has been dragged through the gutter thanks to a small but powerful group of Fundamentalists who have manipulated the bible in order to control the masses and create power. This is an EMBARASSMENT to Christianity. But they are NOT Christianity and we have a large population of Christians that are neither fundamentalist nor progressive but your next door neighbor who just believes in Christianity and doesn't question these fundamentalists because it's not their place to do it or they just don't know better.

I've never once come on this board and tried to convert anyone to my religion. I believe we all have basic faiths, beliefs and tenets (or a desire to have none of these) and I also believe we should have respect for one another. We need to fight the PEOPLE like Falwell, Robertson, Moore, et al instead of fighting the faith. We need to expose these people as the hypocrites that they are! These are the modern day "Pharisees", the Religious leaders that persecuted Jesus for not fitting what they "believed" to be a real messiah. Can you imagine Jesus coming back to earth today and being expected to hang out in these expensive churches and hangout with the likes of these fundamentalists?

So I'm a Progressive Christian and I'm proud to be that. Who wants to throw this Christian to the Lions first??!!!

[NightTrain]

1. Not in the least!

Blees you and be on your way! :-)

[commander bunnypants]

2. Not I

And I agree with you

DDQM

[FlashHarry]

3. Good for you!

So am I--well sort, of. I guess an Episcopalian isn't exactly a hard-core Christian.

[LynneSin]

4. they allowed a gay bishop

So they're ok in my book!

[Blue_Chill]

5. Jesus is on earth

Can you imagine Jesus coming back to earth today

He is every poor person on the planet that is asking for help that gets ignored. He is every insane druken homeless man that society refuses to help. He is every sick human that can't get the health care he needs. He is every prisoner that is tossed into the system and forgotten. He is the victim of wars having nothing to do with him, the children that lose limbs and parents and are left wth nothing.

Jesus is everywhere but he is ignored because in him we see our own faults.

BTW - I'm glad to see you posting your feelings. You have my support.

[LynneSin]

11. This was the most profound statement I've read in a decade

I want to print it out and hang it in my cubicle at work.

Did you write this yourself or is it a quote from someone.

[Blue_Chill]

15. thanks

No one that I know have said those exact words but priests I have heard similar statements from religious leaders who 'get it'. Sadly there aren't many of them.

[GainesT1958]

18. That is AWESOME!

BLUECHILL--And the only thing I could think of to cap off those never-truer words would be what was said at the March on Washington 40th Anniversary Rally:

"America, Bless God--AMEN!" :D

B-)

[sujan]

49. Jesus is on earth

Look at GWB.

[Blue_Chill]

72. You think GWB is Jesus?

Thanks for sharing.......bye now.

[Darranar]

123. I think it is an anti-Jesus post...

not a pro-Bush post. Either that or it is sarcastic. I'll give the benefit of the doubt.

[Bake]

89. Inasmuch as you have done it to the least of these my brethren

You have done it to Me.

Powerful words.

Bake

[drb]

90. Here you go....

"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed."
-- Dwight D. Eisenhower, April 16, 1953

---

"Don’t the Bible say we must love everybody?"

"Oh, the Bible! To be sure, it says a great many things; but, then, nobody ever thinks of doing them. You know, Eva, nobody does." -- Harriet Beecher Stowe, Uncle Tom’s Cabin

[blondeatlast]

118. Wow--so true.

I really believe this, and though I won't give money to the homeless that hang out at the library (my workplace; we are strongly told not to) I know them by name and carry on little conversations with them. the other day, one of them asked me how my son was doing in 1st grade; she had to have remembered from last year. Made my day!

If that isn't a part of the Spirit, I don't know what is.

[WoodrowFan]

6. It Depends..

Are you a PRESBYTERIAN? :P

just joking, I agree with you (unless youre not a Presbyterian, then I MOSTLY agree with you!! LOL)

[leftist_rebel1569]

7. I'm also a progressive christian...

and I'm also proud of it!

[Aristus]

8. Not me, babe. I'm proud to be a liberal Christian.

And I'm proud of you, too! :-)

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

9. Same here LynneSin

good for you, ignore the bigots on DU who constantly attack the religious. Their anger will fade as they get older :)

[rogerashton]

10. It is often forgetten

that evangelicals were progressives at the beginning. They were among the leaders in the struggle against slavery and for educational opportunities and better conditions for workers, and many of them were Christian Socialists. Of course, this is 150 years and more ago.

[Liberal Veteran]

12. I have no problem with Christians per se....

...but proselytising fundamentalist judgemental "everyone should be required to worship like me" types I would just as soon wish godspeed to their maker, and may their god find more pleasure in their company than I do.

[caledesi]

47. Yes, that is where I have a problem.

[blondeatlast]

119. He won't, L_V, but if there is a Satan, I'm sure he will enjoy their compa

right much!

[Fovea]

13. Not if you don't have a problem with progressive Pagans.

But I will say this.
My religion has some embarrassing public figures too.
But by and large, we don't send them enough money to start their own TV networks.

I am not for throwing Christians, or Moslems, or Jews to the lions, but I am all for spanking a few of them and making them sit in the corner until dinner... no talking, either.

[GainesT1958]

14. You embody the TRUE spirit of Christianity...

The version that, indeed, those early CHristians who were thrown to the lions embodied--not the perverse, non-Christianity embraced by people like Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson.

Frankly, I can't even stand mentioning their names and "Christian" in the same paragraph!:puke:

"Just as a good tree bears good fruit, so an evil tree bears evil fruit. By their fruits you shall know them." --Jesus in Matthew.

I tend to think He and Thomas Jefferson were speaking along the same lines when Jefferson made his statement about "Parties that serve the common man and the common good, and parties which serve only to preserve the status and wealth of the wealthy."

And, yes, like you, my belief system, while not "fundamentalist" in any way, IS Scripturally-based. It's what led T.R. to institute the Square Deal and his cousin F.D.R. to give us the New Deal when this country needed them most. Jimmy Carter said--and says today--that it's what drives him. And I'm convinced it's what drives our candidates to offer themselves and their ideas as the alternative to the institutionalized arrogance, greed and selfishness embodied by Dub and his Neo-Con disciples today. We, too, can differentiate the good trees, and their good fruit, from the bad trees, which look a lot like Poison Sumac and Poison Ivy right now!:eyes:

And if anyone thinks we're being "exclusionary", "arrogant", or "religio-centric" in that belief system, I agree with you--let 'em fire away. Because we're not--and those who would take such pot-shots need to try and understand that.

B-)

[The Stranger]

16. Only if you speak out and become active against those whom you consider

to be "Fundamentalists who have manipulated the bible in order to control the masses and create power."

If you remain silent, you are complicit in their wars, their hatred, their anti-Christianity.

[ChesWickatWork]

91. oh crap

that is ridiculous. First of all we are all responsible for the troubles of the world and believe it or not even fundamentalists have a right to their religious beliefs. If you or I do not like where that takes them politically, then we are equally responsible for doing something about it.

[The Stranger]

107. Then we have a problem with your notion of Christianity.

You can't sit in the back of the pews and silently approve of the mindlessness, the hate, and the warmongering, drop some dollars into the tax free offering basket.

If you do, you are complicit in all that is bad that they do.

[Cheswick2.0]

133. sorry read my post and try again

people have a right to beleive what they want. You are trying to lable all fundamentalist christians as hate mongers etc...etc.... a lame supposition to begin with.

Like I said before, and try to follow: If you have a problem with were someone's religion takes them politically then you are as responsible for fighting their politics as I am. You are not going to set up a little death festival where different groups of christians attack each other for varying views on morality and society. So sorry to disapoint you.
What you are trying to do is pin people with guilt by association and that my friend is bullshit.

[The Stranger]

135. Let's do it like this:

people have a right to beleive what they want. You are trying to lable all fundamentalist christians as hate mongers etc...etc.... a lame supposition to begin with.

When they support pre-emptive wars based on lies or, worse, based on the hate for those of other religions, then they likely qualify as hate mongers. You cannot support them and call yourself a progressive. This distinction was made clear in my first reply post above. You seem to keep missing it. Now, does that help?

Like I said before, and try to follow: If you have a problem with were someone's religion takes them politically then you are as responsible for fighting their politics as I am. You are not going to set up a little death festival where different groups of christians attack each other for varying views on morality and society. So sorry to disapoint you. What you are trying to do is pin people with guilt by association and that my friend is bullshit.


I would say nice hyperbole, but you have it backwards. The ones standing up for the death festival are the ones calling for a war for civilization, a war against Muslims, against Islam, and the mass, forced conversion of Jews (if you catch them on the right night), are Fundamentalist Christians.

They believe that there must be a war to precede their Rapture and the Second Coming of Christ. For them, this a Holy War, and all of it has extensive historical roots, going all the way back to Urban II's call for the First Crusade. (Read Karen Armstrong's Holy War: The Crusades and Their Impact on Today's World, which was on the NY Times bestseller list in the late 1990's.)

You cannot support this and call yourself a progressive. Or, in truth, a Christian for that matter. I hope that all of this helps.

[jody]

17. Good for you, whether one accepts orthodox Christian dogma or

some other form or just the precepts that Jesus taught is enough to make society a better group.

As to religion itself, IMO religion is all about dying and eternity is a long time. Blaise Pascal argued a rational person should believe in the existence of God.

[roughsatori]

19. I once replied to someone that I would pray for them

over an illness a member of their family had. I wrote that I hoped they were not offended but that added them to my pray list. The original poster sent me a PM thanking me and told me that though they were an agnostic it made them feel better to hear I was praying for them.

However, in the thread someone replied with a: "Keep the fairy tales to yourself, Jesus was just a man, and probably never existed."

My own beliefs are those of a non-theist Buddhist. (And yes I pray in the name of Jesus. Belief and our ways of knowing the universe are more complex then some of us allow.)

I try to remember the line from the Saint Francis Prayer: "Help me seek not to be understood by others, but help me to understand others."

My heart goes out to Christians who practice the teaching of Jesus. They seem to be losing to the Christians who blindly follow the Gospels of the Republican party and Mammon.

And then they are attacked by those practicing the Gospel of Atheism.

[Rowdyboy]

20. Thanks, Lynne...

You speak for me too. I'm also Episcopalian and have NEVER tried to convert anyone here-we don't do that shit. Sorry some have been offended by fundies that do but they do NOT represent real Christianity......

[Coffee Coyote]

21. nope

Just don't be mad at me because I am posting under my other name. :-)

[LynneSin]

29. YOU are being tossed to the Lions

just because

:wink:

[Coffee Coyote]

54. hehe

Don't worry - the ol' ZombZomb will turn up just for you when you least (or most) expect it. :D

[dawg]

22. I think there are lots of us ...

I'm a Christian, and it seems natural for me to support policies that help the poor, heal the sick, and feed the hungry. To some degree, I see the conservative movement as an attack on Christianity.

[Blue_Chill]

23. I agree

I've never once understood how exactly a Christian in good faith could support the conservative movement. I mean for all the morality they claim to represent one can not ignore thier actions.

It seems to me that too many Christian ignore Jesus completely.

[gully]

25. So true...

[LynneSin]

28. not conservative, neo-conservatives

There is a difference. My family has many conservative members and they think Roy Moore is off his rockers. It's the neo-conservatives that include the Bush Regime and these Zealots that has me worried!

[gully]

24. Me too, Thanks!

[dawg]

26. I thought this article was interesting, and bears on this topic ...

http://www.conservativewatch.com/coming_out_of_the_closet.htm

[Kamika]

27. Same here !

weee :hi: dont let anyone trashtalk you because of your religion!!!!!

[jody]

30. From a current thread, The Golden Rule is common to most religions.

Jesus taught that there are only two laws, love God and love others. For those who reject the notion of God, we can still find common ground by loving others which means simply that one should practice the Golden Rule.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=228228#228504

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kamika]

34. THATS WEIRD

Because JESUS was progressive !!!

[sujan]

36. If Jesus really existed

that is

[LynneSin]

67. Is that a question that really matters

"If Jesus existed"

In 2000 years, society (if they survive) will question if MLK, or Gandhi or (fill in the blank) existed.

My faith has nothing to do about 'existance', it has to do with the fact that there is a book out there that has 4 really great chapters that we can all heed to when it comes to how we treat one another. Gandhi was a great admirer of Jesus Christ and incorporated many of Jesus's teachings into his own practice of civil disobedience and the struggle to free India from England.

Stop thinking with such a closed mind and instead show respect for those who might think differently (although no better or no worse) than how you think.

Whether or not Jesus was real, this message about Jesus is real. We should be reaching out to help others who need help. I defy you to read the Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) and point out one area where Jesus was a greedy capitalist pig. I think you'll read these 4 chapters and recognize his struggle is no different from the progressive struggle of today.

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Character Assassin]

109. I see the terms 'metaphor' and 'connotation' are utterly lost on you

But you are just as stuck on denotation as the fundamentalists you decry.

Why am I not suprised?

[Az]

110. Do you think

repeatedly telling someone that they believe a fairy tale will wake them from it? You may have to work a bit harder to find out why they believe the things they do and proceed based on that rather than attempting to use a simple argument from authority. Particularly as they do not recognise you as an authority.

[ChesWickatWork]

92. I wonder if I will ever read a post from you on this subject

that adds anything but hate to the debate.

[LynneSin]

37. Nice closed mind

I'm glad most folks at DU don't think that way!

[Hell Hath No Fury]

39. Wrong-o...

Three of the most progressive folks I have ever known were (respectively) a Franciscan Father, a Jesuit, and a Dominican Sister.

[jody]

42. Please cite verses from Matthew, Mark, and John to support your assertion.

:-)

[Blue_Chill]

43. Anyone ever call you a smacktard before?

Just wondering. :D

[sujan]

45. lol

weren't you the one claiming that TC was a form of art?

Justice Moore lost....

Rationality 1, Dogma 0

[Blue_Chill]

50. lol

Had you read all my posts you would have seen that I wanted him to lose. The art thing was on the topic of should any religious 'thing' be allowed in publicly funded buildings.

Rationality 1, Sujan 0

[sujan]

53. lol

and weren't you the one claiming that images of crucifixion in public venues be considered art too? oh wait, you also said since majority of americans are christians then it is fine to use public funding to promote art with heavy religious association (subtle for christianity)

Rationality 2 Dogma 0

[Blue_Chill]

61. So you want works Dali, Michelangelo, etc etc tossed out of museums?

and weren't you the one claiming that images of crucifixion in public venues be considered art too?

SO you still saying works Dali, Michelangelo, etc should be tossed out of museums that recieve public funds?

Incredible.

oh wait, you also said since majority of americans are christians then it is fine to use public funding to promote art with heavy religious association

Nope sorry. I always said that if any religious work was to be displayed then it would have to be privately donated. I never stated the goverment should pay for it's creation or purchase.

Honesty/Tolerance 1, Sujan 0

[sujan]

66. no spin zone

SO you still saying works Dali, Michelangelo, etc should be tossed out of museums that recieve public funds?

Incredible.

> Absolutely. No funding to buy your religious over indulges.

Nope sorry. I always said that if any religious work was to be displayed then it would have to be privately donated. I never stated the goverment should pay for it's creation or purchase.

> Nope you said 'public' funding. Even if I were to take your words, The TC monument was privately funded, so if I induce your logic there, you supported it too. Private or not, no religious influence in governmental affairs.

Rationality:3 dogma: 0

[Blue_Chill]

70. Just like O'Reilly's huh?

Absolutely. No funding to buy your religious over indulges.

Once again who is asking you to buy anything? These works travel around the world and are displayed.

You really have no clue how much of art history you would toss out of museums because of your intolerance do you?

> Nope you said 'public' funding. Even if I were to take your words, The TC monument was privately funded, so if I induce your logic there, you supported it too. Private or not, no religious influence in governmental affairs.

I said they could be displayed in buildings that recieved public funding, yes. Like museums. If you want art in a courthouse fine, but make it tasteful and diverse.

That is my stance. As for your "I induce your logic" statement - you don't need to induce anything. I stated that I supported the removal of that thing. Futhermore I stated that I wanted that judge fired.

Honesty/Tolerance 3, The Sujan no spin zone 0

[sujan]

78. lol

Once again who is asking you to buy anything? These works travel around the world and are displayed.
> right, but no public money to display them.

You really have no clue how much of art history you would toss out of museums because of your intolerance do you?
> i am all for tossing them out if they are being paid for by public funding.

I said they could be displayed in buildings that recieved public funding, yes. Like museums.
> I am for it...but no public funding to display them.

If you want art in a courthouse fine, but make it tasteful and diverse.
> My position has always been no public funding on religious artifacts

That is my stance. As for your "I induce your logic" statement - you don't need to induce anything.
> You later claimed 'private' funding. Up until that moment, I repeatedly asked you if TC was a form of art and you tried to argue bringing up ridiculous items like crucifixion and asking if it was religious. of course it was. Just because some religious item has historical significance doesn't mean you now go print the bible or koran now with public funding.

[mcar]

32. Amen, LynneSin

You said it very well. I have been disheartened recently by all the anti-Catholic, anti-Christian bashing on this board. This thread is a breath of fresh air.

[SOteric]

33. You go girl!

I'm warming up a good rant about how "Anti-Theists" are to Athiesm what "Fundies" are to Christianity.

[Skittles]

35. I'd have no problems

if people's "faith" wasn't constantly shoved in my faith. I'm SICK OF HEARING ABOUT IT.

[Kamika]

38. lol

Well atheists constantly shove their "beliefs" into our throatsl.

And they are quite mean let me tell you

[matcom]

41. WOW nice generalization!

i don't recall shoving my non-belief down YOUR or ANYONES throat!

and i'm really a nice guy. ask anyone!

[Skittles]

58. sweetness, YOU don't

but I see it on TV, hear it on the radio, have people coming to my door; every one of the 500 freaking churches in town has a message for me. It's F***ING ENDLESS.

[sujan]

44. lol

shoving rationality is better than superstition

[Kamika]

48. if you say so

Im sure its as annoying though

[sujan]

51. well take your pick

[SOteric]

56. No actually. It's the same.

There is a negative value judgement associated with the assertion that anyone who believes in a Supreme Being does so out of superstition.

You feel the need to judge and condemn people of religious faith. That's very much like the worst of the Fundies, but with the religious being the target of your personal judgements and condemnation. You feel the need to 'convert' those with faith to an Atheistic approach - why? In order to validate your own decisions with regard to belief?

[Blue_Chill]

52. They are not all mean

Az is pretty cool and there are a few others. Then again I would assume many of them just don't care enough about the topic of religion to ay anything.

Most atheist seem like cool people to me. I would say less atheists are asshats then Christian in the US.

[Kamika]

55. I didnt mean that

But (almost) every time i talked to some atheist hellbent on arguing i had to hear how stupid i am or im brainwashed, or they start to insult my religion and so forth. Id never say stuff like this to an atheist if i would debate

[Skittles]

59. talk about generalization

who the f*** EVER SAID I WAS AN ATHIEST?

[Kamika]

63. not sure?

You tell us

[Skittles]

57. oh really

I am not an atheist but do they come to your door each weekend quoting the non-bible?????

[SOteric]

60. No, Skittles. You have a point there.

But they do come to DU threads on a daily (and sometimes more frequent) basis calling those of faith every manner of vile and insulting name, accusing them of weak mental faculties, casting aspersions on their ability to eek out rational thought and falsely asserting that God has been 'proven' not to exist.

[sujan]

62. dont use your bible as a biology book

you will be ridiculed

[SOteric]

64. Why do you *presume* I would?

[SOteric]

65. And here's a better set ofquestions?

Why do you feel the need to *ridicule* anyone...? Who made you the 'thought police?' Why is this your personal vendetta? Why is sujan Johnny-on-the-Spot for all religious or faith based statements asserting a contrary opinion? What's it to you?

[sujan]

68. 'faith based'

lol...another word for fascism.

Why do you feel the need to *ridicule* anyone...?
> well using bible to teach biology is pretty funny, wouldn't you think?

Who made you the 'thought police?'
> better question is, who made you? ah...self appointed like always. Ditto for me too.

Why is this your personal vendetta?
> personal crusade to tear down all form of tyranny...starting with religious dogmas.

[SOteric]

71. You're not an Atheist. And You're Not a Progressive.

I submit you are no Atheist. And you are no progressive.

If you were progressive you would accept that people differ in their beliefs on this matter, and their differing from you does not make either opinion less valid. If you were truly either an Atheist or a progressive, you'd let those of religious faith believe in peace, and go on about your business in the certainty that they're wrong and you're not.

You don't do that. You're on a mission. You're an Anti-Theist and your mission is to spout as much condemnation of those of faith as you can muster.

[Az]

76. Is your methodology effective?

Just asking.

[SOteric]

77. Dude, I'm not door to door trashing Atheists.

You *are* going thread to thread trashing Theists. Somehow, that doesn't strike me as my assuming the role of 'thought police.'

Why do you feel the need to *ridicule* anyone...?
> well using bible to teach biology is pretty funny, wouldn't you think?

No, I don't think its 'funny.' I think it's the right of an individual to do so if they think it valid.

Why is this your personal vendetta?
> personal crusade to tear down all form of tyranny...starting with religious dogmas.

The people who post to these message boards aren't 'religious dogmas.' They are people. They are individuals. They aren't behaving in a tyrannical fashion, in fact, -if anyone is, it's you and those like you who cannot let individuals believe in peace.



I

[sujan]

79. on the contrary

I will try all in my power to get rid of these outdated dogmas that have done nothing but impede human progress.

No, I don't think its 'funny.' I think it's the right of an individual to do so if they think it valid.
> Valid, yeah right....

'believe in peace' - lol, religion is peaceful?

[SOteric]

83. Religion is comprised of individuals.

So, too, is Atheism.

Many individuals in any religion are peaceful; perhaps even the majority. Some are not.

If you wish to play the role of "Fox News For All of Human History," you can catalogue only mankind's atrocities and high-profile weirdnesses. Then you can blame those atrocities on whatever group you like least. That would be good science and an excellent example of rational thought.

[Az]

87. Ever tried to remove the security tape from a CD cover?

You know those strips they put on there to keep the shoplifters from popping open the container and stealing the CD. You could get to the CD by smashing the case open but you run a risk of destroying the CD too. You could pick at the tape and try to peal it off which is the way they expect it to be done but it comes apart and leaves bits here and there. Or you could unhinge the case and open it along the axis the tape is holding and leverage it off using the disconnected covers. This is probably the most effective way of going about it.

Consider the task you have appointed to yourself. How are you going to achieve it? Are you going to smash the case and probably destroy everything in sight? Or are you going to pick at it and not necissarily get every bit of it? Or perhaps you will find a way that is even more effective and causes as little destruction and nuisance as possible.

[Kamika]

73. soteric

Dontbother talking to him, hes the stereotypical guy who just insults etc when you try to debate

[Blue_Chill]

74. shhh let Soteric do her(?) thing .

Trust me.

[LynneSin]

81. Sujan

why must you be so close-minded??!!

I'm glad you're the not person standing outside the big progressive tent with the yardstick to see who can measure up. It would be a very empty tent.

Or maybe you have a religious horror story from childhood that has left you with such hate in your heart. I mean, I know what it's like. I've always been a Christian and yet I was ridiculed by other Christians at my PUBLIC school because I wasn't "Christian" enough. They called me a Satan-Lover since I listened to Led Zeppelin. Mind you the one girl was sleeping around with anything with a penis in his pants and she had the audacity to call me a bad christian (usually in front of a crowd of others). The problem was they were members of the afterschool clubs that I enjoyed being a part of - mainly anything music related. It hurt at first, but it was my progressive Sunday School teacher who helped me through some of these terrible times. Also, imagine being 14 years old, your father just died and these other kids are telling me that either A It was my fault because I was a Satan-Worshiper (again, cause I listened to Rock music, heck I never smoke, drank or did any drugs) or B God has bigger and better plans for him (how about keeping him here on earth with his kids who need him???).

Ignorance will not solve our problems with the Fundamentalists. Who better to get these people out of power than those who understand the faith and are willing to spread the message that Jesus was not a rich man in a fancy church, but a humble man who gave all of himself to make the lives of others better.

I know you'll just ridicule my post, call me insane for my "fictional" beliefs, but instead, why not just accept who I and many of us are and we can all embrace each other for who we are and what our common goal is - which is making our country a better place for everyone which includes getting George W. Bush, a man who doesn't even come close to understanding or representing Jesus, out of office.

- lynne

[goobergunch]

116. Prosetlyzation (sp?) is wrong...

whether it is by someone who believes in God or does not believe in God.

[LynneSin]

75. It's irritating isn't it???!!!

Heck I'm a Christian and I hate when I get the door-to-door Religious Salespeople. I'd rather they come sell me a vacuum cleaner. I still won't buy but at least they're out there trying to earn a business instead of harassing people.

Last people that knocked on my door I left speechless. They asked me if I knew Jesus. "I said he's hanging out at my place drinking a beer with me, did they want to come in and give him a message??!!" I think the beer thing threw them for a loop.

[LearnedHand]

108. BWA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA!

GREAT line! May I steal it? I also heard a similar one:

Religious Salesperson: "Have you found Jesus?"

Person At Home: "Why, yes, I did. Turned out he was behind the sofa the entire time!"



P.S. I loved your original post. We need more people like you around here. Thank you for a lovely, thoughtful reminder that not everyone who follows Christian teachings are like the fundies.

(Oh, and I'm neither Christian nor religious. I simply value tolerance, lovingkindness, and open minds.)

Thanks, also, to the person who posted that Jesus is every homeless, poor, sick person we turn away. What a beautiful reminder!

[Blue_Chill]

112. hehehe

The people that come to my too damn early on the weekends. My favorite so far......

Annoying guy: Do you agree the world is getting worse year by year.
Me: Yes more of you keep showing up at my door.

*slam*

[jody]

40. Suggested links for those who may not have read "Humanist Manifestos"

Humanist Manifestos I and II

A Secular Humanist Declaration

[Lydia Leftcoast]

46. I'm in the club, too, Lynne Sin

I don't try to convert people (I offer explanations if asked, but only if asked), and I'm as far from being a fundamentalist as you can get, so it's really annoying to be lumped together with the Falwells and the Robertsons by knee-jerk atheist missionaries who are probably dealing with issues of abuse by fundies rather than with the mainstream churches as they actually are today: socially progressive, not literalist, and accepting rather than condemning.

If you're happy as an atheist, fine, but if you were really happy, you wouldn't feel the need to go out of your way to dump on believers. Think about. Why does it threaten you so that some people, who wish you know harm and who are even angrier at the fundamentalists than you are, don't agree with you?

And yes, I have read the Humanist Manifesto.

[Az]

69. Someone tosses you into the lion pit

and I am just going to have to go in there and get you back out. I may not agree with what you believe. I may even believe that it is based on something other than the truth. But in one such as you I see nothing other than a fellow human who deserves the right to believe as they choose.

There is a battle going on in this world between doubt and certainty. There are those who wish to proclaim that they know. That they have the answer. That there can be no questioning of their answer.

We all wish to be certain about the things we believe we know. Those that strip away that certainty are seen with disdain and mistrust. Doubt is a unsettling condition to be in. Yet it is the very thing that made our country stand out over 200 years ago.

Our founders had doubts about how to run a country. They were in the middle of cutting themself off from a nation that had certainty on how to rule. Kings were anointed by god and that was absolute. We set forth on this land with a grand experiment. We do not know the path. We do not have certainty about the future. This is the nature of freedom.

Those that recognise the craggy uncertainty of freedom realise they must defend it for all. Even those they disagree with. Thus it is that Benjamin Franklin stated, "They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security".

[LynneSin]

84. Thanks hun

those lions would find my meat a little too fatty for their tastes

BTW, I also believe in Evolution.

God may have created the Heavens and Earth in 6 days, but no where in the first chapters of Genesis did it say that each of those days lasted 24 hours exactly. My impression was that each of those "days" were probably an evolutionary period which is why humans didn't really show up until the "sixth" day!

[blondeatlast]

124. Az, I believe you may be the smartest person I have ever encountered.

Thank you for your perpetual wisdom; DU would be a poorer place without it.

[ibegurpard]

82. No problem here.

:hi:

[Kat45]

85. I'm with you, LynneSin.

I don't understand how anyone who truly believes the words of Jesus can be anything but progressive. The fundies may talk the talk, but they sure don't walk the walk. (Example: * calling himself a 'compassionate conservative' and invoking the name of God every chance he gets, yet cutting benefits and services to...just about everyone who isn't rich.)


"35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.' 37 Then the righteous will answer him, "Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry and gave you food, or thirsty and gave you something to drink? 38 And when was it that we saw you a stranger and welcomed you, or naked and gave you clothing? 39 And when was it that we saw you sick or in prison and visited you?' 40 And the king will answer them, "Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family, you did it to me.'"
- Matt 25:35-40

[Barry Lyndon]

86. For Christian Progressives

Generally, socially conservative Christians consider the following to characterize the general themes of socially progressive Christian thought.

I would be curious as to how accurate you think this is.

Thanks for your response.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

We believe that everything's getting better
despite evidence to the contrary.
The evidence must be investigated.
You can prove anything with evidence.

We believe there's something in
horoscopes, UFO's, and bent spoons;
Jesus was a good man just like Buddha, Mohammed, and ourselves.
He was a good moral teacher although
we think his good morals were bad.

We believe that all religions are basically the same,
at least the one that we read was.
They all believe in love and goodness,
They only differ on matters of
creation sin heaven hell God and salvation.

We believe that each man must find
the truth that is right for him.
Reality will adapt accordingly.
The universe will readjust. History will alter.
We believe that there is no absolute truth
excepting the truth that there is no absolute truth.

We believe in the rejection of creeds.

[LynneSin]

94. It's ironic you've posted a creed

I'm a Quaker - we're not big into the creed/oath thingie.

[Festivito]

96. A big dumb Festivito accident. Ignore this Please!

I wondered why everyone was upset with me. I goofed, big time, my post had no answers.

I case someone responded, Here's what was here:
A creed? Huh? Did you accidentally post this to mine?
I may hold my opinions strongly, but, it hardly reaches a statement of belief, let alone one that would find wide acceptance.

If not a mistake, would you explain what it is you deem a creed.

[Barry Lyndon]

100. How do Quakers defend the Faith?

Thanks for your response.

I've only been to one Quaker meeting.

Do you or any Quakers you know find yourselves discussing, Martin Luther and John Calvin like, weighty metaphysical issues over cans of beer at the dinner table or on the computer?

I'm talking about stuff like this, which I recently emailed to some atheist friends critical of Biblical passages describing folks rising from the dead.
-----------------------------------------------------------



Since orthodox, historical Christianity preaches the resurrection of the body and not reincarnation, we can safely presume that it is entirely consistent to extrapolate that Biblically sound doctrine posits that we are matter which thinks, and not thought which inhabits matter, as some pagan belief systems do.

This understanding, taken with a survey of the instances God rewrites the laws of physics in the Bible, purges notions of magic and mysticism from our belief system.

Briefly, God performs miracles only to underscore the Divine authority of His appointed representative teaching new doctrine.

For Christians this means that miracles stopped as a matter of course with the death of the last apostle.

Valid skepticism produces valid criticism. To be valid, such skepticism must be founded in reason and analysis, not in defiant and oppositional indignation.

A humorous example of valid criticism, which has been going around the net for a few years, of the logical conclusions to the "thought inhabiting matter" explanation of the human soul, follows:


'A thermodynamics professor had written a take home exam for his graduate students. It had one question:

"Is Hell exothermic (gives off heat) or endothermic (absorbs heat)? Support your answer with a proof."

Most of the students wrote proofs of their beliefs using Boyle's Law (gas cools off when it expands and heats up when it is compressed) or some variant. One student, however, wrote the following:

"First, we need to know how the mass of Hell is changing in time. So, we need to know the rate that souls are moving into Hell and the rate they are leaving. I think that we can safely assume that once a soul gets to Hell, it will not leave. Therefore, no souls are leaving. As for how many souls are entering Hell, let's look at the different religions that exist in the world today. Some of these religions state that if you are not a member of their religion, you will go to Hell. Since there are more than one of these religions and since people do not belong to more than one religion, we can project that all people and all souls go to Hell. With birth and death rates as they are, we can expect the number of souls in Hell to increase exponentially. Now, we look at the rate of change of the volume in Hell because Boyle's Law states that in order for the temperature and pressure in Hell to stay the same, the volume of Hell has to expand as souls are added. This gives two possibilities.

1. If Hell is expanding at a slower rate than the rate at which souls enter Hell, then the temperature and pressure in Hell will increase until all Hell breaks loose.

2. Of course, if Hell is expanding at a rate faster than the increase of souls in Hell, then the temperature and pressure will drop until Hell freezes over.

So which is it? If we accept the postulate given to me by Ms. T------ B----- during my Freshman year, 'That it will be a cold night in Hell before I sleep with you,' and take into account the fact that I still have not succeeded, then #2 cannot be true, and so Hell is exothermic."

The student got the only A.'

[LynneSin]

111. If we talk at our Quaker Meeting

it tends to be about current events. Ours seem to be more of an "hour of meditation" and social stuff afterwards

[Festivito]

113. Cute, cute story. Just cute.

You asked me to check on this post in my errant post further down.

First, I am not a Quaker. I haven't even attended one meeting. I can imagine that they can defend their faith by speaking. And, they can call to faith by their example.

My Uncle was a Michigan Mennonite minister's son. The son didn't attend church. We feared the Uncle as much as God, and I have examples. But, not here.

He had beers. I don't drink. Discussions occurred in the Parlor with him. Discussions of metaphysics were tolerated until the subject could be changed.

Rather than my blathering on about physics and mysticism in Orthodox Christianity, perhaps I could overview my concept of religion.

Religion is a connection between our temporal lives and the absolute. Often accomplished by repetition testing belief and faith in attempt to emulate the absolute in our temporary lives. (I'm just doing this off the cuff so forgive me in advance.) It's a process.

My studies in metaphysics can be summed up in the image of a mouse, called man, running in and out of every hole in the cosmos, hunting absolute cheeze. Stolen from DeCarte, then mangled by me.

That's an obsession.

The logic of the arguments you list are fun, again cute, but, it's your connection and your logic. I wish you well.

BTW: If we were indeed matter that thinks, that does not mean we cannot have thoughts that inhabit.

[Uzybone]

95. where did you get that

I think conservative "christians" simply think liberal Christians are not christian enough. None of that stuff above means anything to me at all.

[Festivito]

101. Another big Festivito mistake, sorry. Please ignore.

Please ignore. I feel so dumb.

I also think that conservative Christians find liberals as lesser Christians. I also think they are wrong. There seems a trend toward more literalism and more tangibility while ideas are dropped.

Someone posted earlier in DU about the ten commandments being a golden calf of modern Christians. It doesn't fit exactly, but, it's close. These people are grasping for something they can see and grasp.

Politically the flag issue that I put in my signuture indicates that some people work to preserve the icon, the tangible flag, rather than preserving the intangible idealism of free speech.

As to what you don't understand, couldn't you be more specific.

ignores
bad apples
arrogance
absolutism
self-loathing
disruptors

Anything of these? I studied engineering to avoid writing, so sorry if you have trouble with my grammar. But, at least point me to a particular sentence or explain one as an example.

[Barry Lyndon]

106. Physics problem

"I studied engineering to avoid writing..."

I'm interested in your thoughts on post #100.

Thanks.

[Barry Lyndon]

103. It's a caricature

"I think conservative "christians" simply think liberal Christians are not christian enough."

I quite agree. Correct beliefs do not insure correct behavior.

Down my way we've had a couple of Bible thumpering preachers who got arrested, one for prosituting himself in drag, and another for seducing a 14 year old girl in his congregation. This guy had a prior statutory rape conviction.

Need I add that these congregations are also among the loudest to decry "liberal" theology?

[Kat45]

97. I'd say it's totally inaccurate.

Also quite simplistic and condescending. Who/where did this come from?

[Barry Lyndon]

104. It's a caricature

It's a condensation of some liberal theology I've heard, and of how some conservatives respond to it.

How do you find it inaccurate?

[Festivito]

105. The last mistake, so far, Festivito made, Ignore please.

In case someone responded, my shame is still below. I thought it was my branch. Oh, the shame.

Guilty of condescention! My anger spoke up.

But, "totally inaccurate?" Isn't "totally" a little simplistic. Perhaps you could give an example.

I did feel that the responses being made to LynnSin were low attacks, simplistic and arrogant, not meant for discourse. And, I do consider discourse as a higher form than attack. Then I did descend to that level and attack the attacker in a non-direct manner (without naming names as DU rules suggest). DU isn't good for responding to someone who attacks like that on many posts, so I did condescend, but, I do feel a little justified.

[Festivito]

88. No problem here, I agree with you and then some...

Some of the simpletonesque posts on this thread are easily ignored even without the ignore function. The bad apples around here are few but prolific, although their lack of intellect shown with their arrogance.

Ironic, the absolutism of won/lost posting (e.g. my-way: 1, yours: 0) indicative of their connection to the very thing they say they hate: the absolutism of the fundementalists. Projected self-loathing if you'd ask me.

Christianity, progressivity, liberalism all fit neatly into good Christians. The bad christians, well, can be a measure of how good Christianity really is. DU will never be without disruptors, neither will Christianity. Both are pretty good. We still need to work at making them both better.

Thanks for helping.
-Fes

[Bake]

93. If you need company in the lions' den

I'm there.

Bake

[UrbScotty]

98. Do I hear an AMEN?!

And check out www.liberalslikechrist.org to see why Christians should be Liberals, and vice versa.

[ChesWickatWork]

99. not to worry Lynne

I think it is upsetting or surprising to a certain faction on the left to find that they in the minority in religion. Somewhere along the line they made the dumb assumption that lefties tended to be atheist or agnostics and that religion is a right wing kind of pursuit.

We know that is not true and for those who felt safe a year ago bashing (here on DU) Christians and religion in general, they are learning a valuable lesson in learning not to define people by narrow measures.

[Breezy du Nord]

102. I agree

Being an agnostic, i know perfectly well what you mean when you say the fundies have made Christians like a bunch of whiny conservative idiots.

Really, I don't even think Pat Robertson is a Christian at all.

[goobergunch]

114. No problem here (n/t)

[BlackRhino]

115. Yes, but I can look past it!

"My faith is not some Fantasy Makeup Story. It's who I am and what I believe in."

The two are not mutually exclusive.

Cheers!
Jerky

[MaryBear]

117. Goes together like

a horse and carriage.

[geniph]

120. While I am not myself a person of faith,

I have no reason to disrespect those who are. I'm sureashell not going to attack anyone who actually follows the tenets of Christianity - it's a pretty darn progressive religion, if you go by the Gospels.

It's these ConCINOs, these Conservative-Christians-In-Name-Only that give religious folk a bad name, these people that want to tell others how to remove the mote from their eyes, without removing the beams from their own.

[Darranar]

121. Not me...

As long as you're progressive, I don't care whether you're Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, Agnostic, Jew, Atheist, Astrologer, Pagan, Wiccan, Hindu, or some combination of the above.

[MiltonLeBerle]

122. My progressive liberal attitude comes from my religious upbringing too-

But the whole "faith" thing just didn't stick. There are way too many holes in the stories.
As a Supreme being goes, God seems to have an awful lot of human shortcomings- he's Jealous, Vengeful, Insecure yet Arrogant, Petty, etc...It seems more likely to me that men created god in their image, rather than the other way around.
Why would a loving, understanding deity force you to take on faith the flawed words of flawed men who have been dead for nearly 2,000 years? Wouldn't some kind of unambiguous incontrovertible sign be more in line with "fatherly love"?

[foreigncorrespondent]

125. No problem what so ever LS.

Infact I am going through my own little crisis of faith thing at the minute.

All my life I have never really followed any religion. I was raised in a Church of Christ household, but never really followed religion.

But I am at a point in my life where I feel I need some form of religion, and am now seriously thinking on joining the MCC here in Melbourne.

My partner has been given the chance to visit me (thanks to an annonymous benefactor who is paying for the trip etc), and will be here next week. So we have decided to attend a church service together while she is here. If I like the chuch and am comfortable, then I will probably begin attending on a regular basis, and eventually join the church and get myself baptised. :)

I have chosen the MCC as my first port of call because being an out lesbian, I do want to attend a church that is going to accept me for me.

The little crisis of faith I am going through at the minute is, how can anyone deny the love I share for Sapphocrat? Meaning, we have the Jerry Falwells of the world saying that homosexuality is wrong. Yet I don't feel it is wrong, infact Sapphocrat is the most right thing ever to happen in my life. I know God would not have let us fall in love three and half years ago if he thought it was wrong.

[Cheswick2.0]

134. FC, I on occasion attended an MCC church in Miami

I had some friends who went to the Episcopal church in the morning and to an MCC service in the evening. My choir director and organist was also played the piano at MCC. So sometimes I would go along and sing with them. It is a wonderful church. The services were always full of love and acceptance.

I hope you have a wonderful time while your partner is here.

[Deja Q]

126. I'll agree with that

I respect what organized religion tries to do, and as long as you don't hate me for who I am or my beliefs (some of which are tie-ins to each other), I will be as civilized toward your beliefs in return.

Indeed, as many religions speak of Jesus, I'm inclined to agree there was a philosopher or indeed messiah named Jesus.

And you're right about Robertson and the rest, they're nothing more than career-minded opportunist sacriligous heathens.

The only issue I won't ever budge on though is homosexuality. Organized religion (it's not all a Christianity issue) has made total scapegoats out of us because it couldn't find anyone else to berate or lay blame on and as a result we're ridiculed, maimed, beaten, and even murdered on a regular basis, though it's been comparatively better over the last decade, but even still... That is intolerable. The very fact that some versions of the Bible don't home in on homosexuality whereas others do makes the whole institution suspect. (the Sodom & Gommorah story being my absolute favorite, the truth is God destroyed the cities because its inhabitants were essentially vain, egocentric, arrogant, and hostile towards guests and neighbors. Sadly, that very description sounds rather like a certain superpower of modern times...)

Indeed, how do I "lie with a man as I would a woman" when men don't have the bits that women have, so therefore it's impossible? The Bible doesn't even begin to go into any specifics, it could be wrong for two men to merely lie down on the same mattress pad separated by 3 feet and a large wooden plank for all we truly know. Just a line in Leviticus which has as much credibility as "What'chou talkin' about, Willis?" apparently justifies the so-called "sin" of homosexuality. Which is unfortunate, really, as its being shy on the issue has led to the horrific and absolutely scary idea that the Bible may be wrong and all these years we've been wrongfully victimized! :wow: And when credibility breaks in one aspect, the rest of it then gets questioned as if the Spanish Inquisition was nothing more than a Tupperware party.

Not to bash Christianity itself, there's a lot of it which IS good, much like all religions are meant to be good.

Would you throw me to the lions?

[GoddessOfGuinness]

127. I believe if there were more Christians like you,

there'd be more Christians.

I have a problem with regressive, repressive "Christians" like Robertson and Falwell, who practice that brand of arrogance and power-lust in the guise of religion.

I pity those who have been duped by the false prophets. May their eyes soon be opened.

[donco6]

128. Jesus and today's fundamentalists

>>Can you imagine Jesus coming back to earth today and being expected to hang out in these expensive churches and hangout with the likes of these fundamentalists?<<

I'm not a Christian today because of these people. What's that verse - Woe to you Scribes and Pharisees, you work to make a convert and he ends up twice the son of hell that you are yourselves . . .

Or something like that.

[AntiCoup2K4]

129. Count me in!

Another Progressive, Liberal Christian here and proud of it!

I applaud Lynne for starting this thread and most of the responses with a few obvious exceptions from the usual God haters.

Now for a little confession (they say it's good for the soul.....)

I was the one who arranged for Jesus Christ to visit this board for a day or two last week. It was a response to all the anti-God threads that have been, and continue to multiply around here. It's really ironic that some people who consider themselves to be open minded liberals can be so hostile to a faith/belief system/religion (pick your favorite term), just because they don't believe it.

Actually, I was surprised that the Lord's visit here went as well as it did. And if any believers missed the point in what I was doing and were somehow offended, then for that I truly am sorry, for I had no intention of "causing a brother or sister in Christ to stumble".

The right wing theft of Christianity pisses me off in a way that few other things can (at least until the current Fraudministration). I myself used to attend a fundie Baptist church where the Gospel according to Ronald Reagan was preached far more than Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John. Naturally, I never bought into it, and while I admit to owning Stryper and Petra albums, that doesn't mean I burned my Ramones and Black Sabbath records.

Given the sickening impression of Christianity that many people have because of the reich wing, it's a good thing that we have Liberal, Progressive Christians to set the record straight. Let's not forget how many churches were active in the civil rights movement. And let's not forget Jimmy Carter, who campaigned as a Christian, and served in the White House as a Christian - unlike the hypocrites who came after him.

[44wax]

130. I am with you

Thanks for speaking up.

[MoonGod]

131. Many of America's great progressives were also Christian...

Sorry, I haven't taken the time to read all 130 posts in this thread, but I wanted to add my 2 bytes.

I'm not Christian myself, but I do recognize the link there has been between Christianity and progressive movements in America.

Martin Luther King is one great example. Another is Dorothy Day, who started the Catholic Worker Movement: http://www.catholicworker.org/ ... Jimmy Carter was a well known Southern Baptist (even a Sunday School teacher at one point) until he disassociated himself from the SBC a few years ago.

[Tom Kitten]

132. No Problem

I consider myself a Christian also...

[PopSixSquish]

136. Checking In - Sorry I'm Late to this Thread

Christian and Progressive daughter of a retired Episcopal priest and self-proclaimed "Roosevelt Democrat" from whom I got all of my faith, tolerance and compassion (Mom helped too of course)

Decorum prevents me from repeating what my father says to say about Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell.

Whenever I hear folks like those go off on a rant about something, I am reminded of Matthew 5, verses 3 - 10. If PR and JF want to quote scripture from the Bible to back up their intolerance, I can quote scripture to show them where they are wrong.

The whole is usually greater than the sum of it's parts.