lets face it DU IS DEAD!!!!

[shesemsmom]

I've never seen it so quiet in here. Is everyone overdosed on turkey, or are you out Christmas shopping.

[sportndandy]

1. the calm before the storm...

at least I hope... :)

[OneTwentyoNine]

2. Uh...what??

This is a holiday weekend,many DU'ers might not even be in town but...still seems busy to me.

[napi21]

3. I think there's just not much new out there right now.

Think about it. Over the last several days, there just hasn't been much happeing that's worth paying attention to. DU is going through the same thing the 24 HR news chanels do when there's nothing worth talking about, except we don't resort to celebrity trials and such.

Give it a few days. I heard someone on a cspan interview say the CBS investigation report on the "fraud" military documents is due next week.

[hippiechick]

4. Some of us who used to speak up regularly

... have been brow-beaten into submission by all the bile and the hostility here lately.

:hippie:

[shesemsmom]

6. What I hope you are joking

please tell me your joking

[hippiechick]

9. Speaking for myself, no. I am not joking.

:(

:hippie:

[Ernesto]

26. I gotta go with hippiechick on this one

After 3 & a half years and now 60,000 members, this place ain't the same. Of course 11-3 didn't help the DU morale situation.
So it goes.......

[H2O Man]

33. There has been an ugly tone

at times since the election. I've discussed this with a number of people I like on DU. To be honest, I've had a couple of times where I've been less than patient or polite, but it has been a reaction to people that seem to be aggressive in trying to provoke a quarrel. As a rule, I try to clarify differences of opinion for two posts (or more) and that usually works.

Still, a few people have called me names. To quote Howard Cosell, from his first book, "Arrogant, pompous, obnoxious, vain, cruel, verbose, a show-off: I have been called all of these. Of course, I am." It's good to have a sense of humor about it, I suppose, and to try to stick with a core group of either like-minded and open-minded people.

[indigobusiness]

40. Well,personally speaking, I have never been less than patient or polite...

*ahem*

But, your point about having a good sense of humor is a huge one.

Sometimes it is like a chinese fire-drill around here when someone flies completely off the handle OVER A MISUNDERSTANDING.

It's one thing to draw swords when the dispute is clear. But some are a little sword-happy.

[miss_kitty]

56. I agree with Hippiechick

And I am relatively new here. I've cut way back, and continue to do so

[Ardee]

11. Lately?

Surely, with someone whose post count is as large as yours, you have noted that political discussions always contain a bit of "bile and hostility"...Comes with the territory sadly...One either ignores it or drops out.

[shesemsmom]

13. I've seen a few but calked it up

to the way I've taken it or maybe they are having a bad day.

[hippiechick]

18. There is a difference between rigorous, healthy debate and

.. the hostility and venom I've seen here over the past several months.

To the point where if one is not part of the inner circle, and in 100% agreement with the meme of the week, one will be accused of being a troll, have their credibility attacked, and be summarily discounted, simply because they refuse to fall in step.

And regardless of whether I agree with any given perspective, I am by nature a critical thinker and will even question my own beliefs/information sometimes.

To many around here lately, that is simply not allowable.


:hippie:

[shesemsmom]

19. Once we were discussing the Kennedy assassination

and someone did get kind of nasty with me about my veiw... I believe that there is more than one shooter. They had there say and I didn't here anymore about it after my last comment. When you have this many people chatting. I guess personalities do enter in

[Ardee]

24. Am I missing something?

You have over 4400 posts and you think that things have somehow changed for the worse around here?

I suggest a case of the holiday blues, perhaps.....Remember the so-called 'Night of the Long Knives', when a number of the best and brightest were tombstoned? Some have never returned and this place is the worse for their absences. Remember the epic battles between the neocons and the liberals over the (despicable) betrayal of the Party of its fundamental principles(guess which one I am)?

There are any number of examples of hostility and stupidity, displays of close-minded thinking and petty accusations....this is nothing but political discourse as usual,imo.In fact I was under the impression that things had actually gotten a bit more civilized around here (I do tend to stick to a few topics and thus may miss much of what you speak). Even so I consider it par for the course.

[hippiechick]

43. I guess I don't understand

... what my post count has to do with it ? You've mentioned it twice.
If you're suggesting that 4400 posts in 3 years is ALOT, I'd refer to to people like my dear pal Khephra, who had over 30,000 posts in less than 2 years.

:shrug:

Yes, I'm an 'old timer', and have been around to see alot of crap. And I'll admit, although I generally tend to keep quiet unless I think I have something compelling to offer, I have been known to throw a cyber Molotov as well. Having been here from the beginning gives me the advantage (if one could call it that) of seeing the ebb and flow of positive and negative energy at DU, and the current climate in a couple of the other forums is "yer either with us, or yer agin' us - so STFU you troll" as opposed to previously being "ok, I think you're full of bull, tell me why you think that ?".

I'm sorry but I stand by my statement that it simply is not the same place it used to be. But that doesn't mean those of us who find it less than hospitable at present should leave - I just feel that some of us have clammed up to avoid the drama and will come back out of our shells once DU calms down.

Peace,

:hippie:

[miss_kitty]

58. It's changed in the few months I've been coming 'round

I agree with you. Places do change when they get big, have new members, but I am dumbfounded by some of the stuff that's happened in the last week or two. And I am just talking the Lounge.

[Ardee]

68. How come

you question my referencing your "seniority" and then provide the answer in the very next paragraph? I assumed that, with your length of time here you would have noted the continual lapses into "less than civilised" posts from time to time...It happens, isnt a symptom of anything more or less than the nature of political debate, unfortunately, and those who cannot refrain from such behavior either learn or leave sooner or later, for the most part......

[hippiechick]

73. Because you seem stuck on my post count

Sorry, not taking your bait, son.
I have better things to do tonight.


:hippie:

[Ardee]

82. unwanted glimpses into a personality

"When you stare into the abyss,the abyss stares back"..take what freakin bait ????? Oh and I ain't your son, I'm 62 years old.

You seem a bit headstrong and unwilling to consider that your opinion ,especially first ones, can be mistaken.

Last attempt I promise:

I used your post count only as an example of your tenure here, suggesting that you were qualified to take a longer and more abstracted view of trends here at DU...Have a nice Holiday season....

[indigobusiness]

25. hippiechick - I've got your back on this one

You make a terrific point re:

"...if one is not part of the inner circle, and in 100% agreement with the meme of the week, one will be accused of being a troll, have their credibility attacked, and be summarily discounted, simply because they refuse to fall in step."

I've noticed a similar mob mentality flare up. on occasion. It gets really creepy when us-and-themism finds root and a sort of crypto-elitism is evident.

This should be a place to debate ideas, but it often degenerates into personal attacks when ideas clash. Critical thinking is essential, and critical analysis is required. Woefully, this skill is lost on some. Bias and personal agenda have their place, but not in a debate of ideas.

[Ernesto]

31. A couple of weeks ago, I was called a freeper

For suggesting that the DU was becoming pretty negative. Perhaps we should skip the repetitive angry rants & try to deal with situation @ hand. Unfortunately, for some, it seems that many of the wave of new members are not past their personal "outrage" phase.
For this reason, I think many old timers are sitting on their hands these days.

[indigobusiness]

39. I don't mind rants. Unless it gets personal.

The mob mentality is especially egregious.

[Sterling]

55. If you are not outraged your not paying attention.

It's apathy we need to worry about, not outrage. Right now I am apathetic because I know we don't have any real chance of getting representation for our values in the current system.

I am apathetic because I know our elections are rigged and the party I thought represented me could care less.

My outrage was useful, it motivated me to work very hard to defeat Bush. Now I feel like a spectator watching a car wreck.

My apathy is taking me back to the days where things like football games and recreational time are a priority.

Let me know when you have seen enough to be pissed off, mayber then we can work together.

[Sterling]

51. Well if you are here promoting.

"getting over" the stolen election.
or
becoming more religious and dumping our core values. Then you probably earned the ire of the members how challnged you.

If anything DU should be a place where we work to promote our values and fight rather than where we learn how to fall in line with the great christian corporate crusade.

[indigobusiness]

74. How you dredged that up from what I said is a complete mystery

That doesn't compute, in any way.

[hippiechick]

75. I can't speak for Indigo, but I agree with your post. ...

But, DU'ers shouldn't be subjected to verbal assault from other DU'ers simply because they don't follow the rest of the herd over the cliff.

I am outraged, I am pissed at the election 'results'. But for the moment, I feel that my organizing energies will be better spent at a local level. And to be continually called a troll because I have chosen to make other issues priority over what some DU'ers feel are critical, is just ... really ... beyond justification.

Many of us are still working for "the cause" - on many different issues at varying levels - and to be vilified for that or for asking for some tolerance/acceptance of each Duer's own choice is undermining the entire progressive movement, IMO.


:hippie:

[Is It Fascism Yet]

80. no, DUers shouldn't be assaulting each other when they disagree

although, i remember one post, hippiechick, in which you told someone you didn't agree with to "bite you". Is that the sort of thing you think DUers shouldn't be exposed to? Me too. But, like I said above, everybody is about as tense as they can get, so, we must forgive each other for being ill tempered. It's the mood of the land, after all. Yes, humor would be the answer, but, which among us has found anything funny since "election pretense day"?

[hippiechick]

81. Yes I did - because this person does not know me

yet felt the need to tell me I was a 'disservice' to the word 'hippie'(as if there is one and only one definition of the term/lifestyle/thought process), because my view on a certain issue was different than theirs.

I would never jump on someone I do not know, have never met, and know nothing about simply because what I think they are 'supposed' to be about turns out to be different from what my current righteous indignantion of the moment happens to be. I thought as liberals and Dems, we were bigger than that.

:hippie:

[Is It Fascism Yet]

83. yeah, well, whatever, my point is

that EVERYONE has been rather ill tempered, that's the result of morbid disappointment.

[miss_kitty]

59. Critical thinking is essential

It is an art and something no longer taught in schools. I am not a meme embracer. I hate them. Either side's memes are stupid, because they require no thought or sourcing on the part of the parrot.

And I agree with the hippiechick point you point out. Let's make it OUR meme.

:P

[OldLeftieLawyer]

60. I'm a newbie

But I'm mouthy, and because I happen to have some theories - most of them legal, and having to do with the recount effort - I've caught some ugly and highly personal attacks from people who are now unabashed Kerry-haters. They seem to think he had a duty to address DU and tell everyone what his next steps would be. That's how it seemed to me.

When I allowed as how it might not be a very good idea to trumpet one's legal strategy to the world, I got called names, told I was probably a lousy lawyer, and stuff like that.

I honestly, perhaps naively, expected better from people who frequent a place called "Democrat Underground."

Am I missing something?

Thanks.

[miss_kitty]

63. well people see your ideas as a threat to theirs

they are watching mainstream media and picking up bad manners from it.

They forget, or are not even aware that dissent is the BASIS for democracy, not a THREAT to it. that's a right wing thing.

"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act"-G. Orwell.

On Edit: Punctuation

[Ardee]

67. self censored response

as a waste of time, most likely.

[Stinky The Clown]

28. Here! Here!

[Is It Fascism Yet]

45. sorry hippie

about your brow beating! Everyone is very on edge, sick with unhappiness about the death of democracy in America and all. Gee, I miss your comments!

[in_cog_ni_to]

5. My excuse. Stripping wallpaper and painting (put off for 4 years for

politics) AND Pissed off and lost all hope in our political process, our election system and am not going to do a damn thing having to do with politics until evoting machines are thrown in rivers, burned, sledge hammered and completely destroyed.

I don't go out to shop. I shop online. HATE crowds.

[shesemsmom]

7. Me too

I've got to put up the tree today. I did most of my shopping on line as well. Going to wrap today. Maybe......

[annabanana]

27. Hi in-cog!

So I take it you'd be up for a late-night trip to the East River with a van full of evoting machines? (sounds like fun) :hi:

[in_cog_ni_to]

70. Hi anna!

There's nothing I would enjoy more! :hi:

[Pepperbelly]

8. Turkey drunk or something ... I don't remember seeing this quiet since ...

I've here which is almost from the beginning ...

:shrug:

[zippy890]

10. Reading-- article on WIA - Worthless Intelligence Agency

Scary times in our country, and getting scarier.

http://alternet.org/story/20600/

[Aristus]

12. I'll talk with you, shesemsmom.

We had some laughs last night, didn't we? :-)

[shesemsmom]

14. Yes we did

did you see the post about the Bush baloney sandwich > came completely unglued

[Aristus]

17. Yeah. Perfect marriage of subject and medium, if you ask me.

:7

[UNIXcock]

15. Just relaxing and enjoying the Holiday a bit, we all deserve it ...

... be good to your loved ones and yourself

[RegexReader]

30. been gone on vacation

and needed it! Back ready for the holidays! ;-)

RegexReader
$USA =~ s/Republican/Democrat/ig;

[Arianrhod]

16. I've posted more today than in the entire year I've been here. :)

I guess nobody reads my stuff. . . .

[UNIXcock]

20. I do!

... :thumbsup:

[shesemsmom]

21. I read it and I'm glad your here.

I would hate to feel I couldn't come here. DU has been a lot of help to me mentally and I would hate to think I would not feel comfortable here

[Arianrhod]

41. Thanks, both of you. I like coming here, too. :)

I really meant that tongue-in-cheek, but it's nice to know that others are listening to my rambles.

:D

[October]

22. Nutcracker Season

Daughter in ballet company -- 8 shows coming up...

My husband and I volunteer a lot, as funding in PA is low for the arts.

[shesemsmom]

23. That sounds like great fun I wish I could see it

[October]

66. Well...since I'm an artist...

they recruit me for lots of different things.

For instance...I've been painting a "donations" box all week. We sit this rectangular tall wooden box in the lobby, and people place dollar bills in the top plexiglass box.

It was in bad shape, so they asked me to do something with it. So...I've painted it with pointe shoes and ribbons on a black background.

I've never painted a piece of furniture before...but then when I painted a backdrop, I'd never done that before either...

[timtom]

47. How weird!

My daughter, too. In south Florida.

[berni_mccoy]

29. I never heard of DU before the election

But I found out about it through forums.johnkerry.com. Obviously DU has been around a while and will continue to be around with people like me. I may not be as active as I was during the election, but that is only because I was EXTREMELY active during the election (and I have NEVER been so energized by politics in my life). I mainly posted at the kerry site, but that site has pretty much gone dead. I'm now a contributing member of DU.

This forum will continue and it's gained a few members. People talk of leaving the country or leaving the party, but I believe that's just huge dissappointment talking. The vast majority will stay and fight. This election as been a "red pill" (ala The Matrix) for many people, including myself, and I believe this is something that the republicans don't realize yet.

I'm ready to undo some of their damage during the next batch of congressional elections, and I believe the majority of the people here at DU are ready as well.

[Ernesto]

34. Well said, bernie

except "gained a few members". This joint has grown by 10,000 in about 2 months!

[opihimoimoi]

32. DU is NOT DEAD, Its healthy and thriving and one of the few places for

good discourse and debate. It is a place of sharing ideas and concepts, etc. It is a place to encourage learning, the inquisitive mind, and the passion to understand the complexities of the human mind and how it can be Fooled, Taught, Inspired, Conditioned....into whatever frame of mind to improve ourselves...or to delve into a submissive state and follow. It is our choice.

The pertinent questions for those who wish a Higher Level of Living

it starts with the simple:

How

Why

When

What Happens

Opi's sub rant

[timtom]

54. I agree completely!

I find it more exciting here than pre-election, because there seems to be an incipient stirring of viable strategies on how to fight this corrupt gang of maggots.

I find here a wonderful assortment of heightened and enlightened dialogue in many areas. Where things get derailed, in my opinion, is at the point where invective and emotion take over. When it becomes apparent that two or more parties are just "fussin'" it's time to stop the communication. No winners, no losers. In my opinion.

[Ardee]

69. Pearls of Wisdom

and from the usual source...Happy Holiday Opi......

[Evening Star]

35. Want to DU some Republicans in debate?

I exceeded my daily posts there..so have to wait until tomorrow.

Appears the Dems could use some help.

You can sign up for free and you get three posts per day


http://www.siliconinvestor.com/subject.aspx?subjectid=28880

I was attempting to respond to "Wayne" who says the Pres hasn't even recieved the latest bill from congress yet" after I posted Molly Ivins latest article "Three Ugly Weeks"

but I believe he, shrub, already said he would sign it (the pork)

Now they are hammering JK about shooting Vietnamese in the back

I was going to post the BCCI stuff about Kerry

Have fun!

[Evening Star]

36. They are also going on about the WMD's lab

alledgedly found in Fallujah

Maybe this will help mitigate

'Unusual Weapons' Used in Fallujah ......(poison gas)

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/1126-01.htm

[Minstrel Boy]

37. I've rediscovered the Ignore function

It's made DU seem much less bilious and caustic.

And I'd say, rather than dead, DU's going through a post-election bi-polar episode. Half-manic, half-depressive. And I think that's entirely appropriate. Equilibrium will return, but this isn't the time for equilibrium.

[blm]

38. I don't shop AT ALL the entire weekend after Thanksgiving.

I'll be damned if I add one dollar to their fucking tally.

[SpiralHawk]

42. been in central america for the last month

and so have joined cyberbrainwaves at du infrequently.

it is my unpleasant task to report that there exists a strong current of rage still in central america against the running yankee dog imperialsts. ahem. this is not gererally expressed overtly, but if you probe beneath the surface you find it in many a heart.

this rage is nothing new, of course, and goes back to at least the last 120 years of so of us corporate, political, and military machinations and ugly puppetry.

watch central america. rumsfeld has his eye on the region now. wants to send in more advisers and enforcers to staunch terrorism and all that.

many forces and powers coming into play.

central america to play a key role in the unfolding of our global destiny in the years immediately ahead. that's what i feel.

du is ready for the very next step -- we just need to see in which direction. all clear by the dawn of 2005 i feel.

pax, sh

[Is It Fascism Yet]

44. Starve The Beast Don't Go Out Shopping

Yes, DU is very dead. It is because we are demoralized and nobody knows wtf to do about the death of our democracy. We only had a pretense of an election, and now we are about to witness a pretense of an inauguration followed by a pretense of a presidency. We are like, not gone shopping, but sitting around being dumbstruck by the blatant audacity to usurp democracy in America. Everyone, okay, I understand you can't disappoint some people this Christmas, but, keep your spending down as low as possible, do not "be a good consumer now" it's the least we can do. I believe we should all commit to reduce our gasoline consumption by 10%, "Starve The Beast", stay out of the stock market, and unamimously honor "Buy Nothing Day". It's the very least we can do. Imagine that legal elections are a thing of the now distant past in America, and while we try to export democracy to Afghanistan and Iraq, we have none at home. Even the far right should be alarmed by this, it's better to lose a legal election than win a fraudulent one. Better for everyone. May democracy be preserved. Imagine that the Ukrainians defend their democracy more diligently than we do. What strange days we are seeing.

[CreekDog]

48. the new rules on posting a new thread may be part of the problem

The rule that stops you from beginning a thread unless you have 250 posts stopped me from creating about 10 threads that I wanted to post. I understand why they put in the rule, but it shut off a way for DU'ers like me to start threads and it seems like there are less threads than there were a while ago.

I'm just about at 250, so I should be able to start a new thread now, but this rule is definetely one thing that changed DU.

[Arianrhod]

77. I agree.

And I've already begun doing some things to STB. Actually, I've been doing things like this for several years now. I buy from small vendors whenever possible (the more mom-and-pop, the better I like it!), have quit buying anything from a US corporation that I can get somewhere else, put less than 8000 miles a year on my car (it's 6 years old and has under 50,000 miles on it), don't drive if I can walk, use candles instead of electric lights (except when cooking or reading), keep the house temperature around 68-70 degrees, etc etc etc. I give to local community charities instead of the high-overhead, corporate ones. I don't watch television; instead, I buy DVDs of those shows and movies that reflect Progressive values. My biggest sin right now is extensive Internet use, which admittedly runs my phone bill up every month. But I justify it by reminding myself that the vast majority of that use is on sites like this, where I glean ideas and participate in our rapidly deteriorating democracy. I never Net surf just for the sake of surfing.

These are actually small things to do, but it all adds up to a less self-absorbed way of life.

[Sterling]

46. I think people realize were are fucked.

I still come here out of habit and to read the news posted by our fine members.

However the party is clearly dead and I think many of us have not yet decided what to do about it yet. Maybe I will just stop paying attention and go shopping? Maybe I will move to another country? I know I can't logically support busting my ass trying to make a difference in the sham of a political process we now enjoy in the good ole USA.

It's hard to care when you know the election was rigged and the people you were supporting don't care about it.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

61. Please

Take heart.

Please keep in mind that the presidential election is not over yet. No one's been elected yet. I know that sounds nuts, but, consider the fact of the electoral college, and consider that the electors don't meet until December 13, when they cast their votes, and then the votes aren't opened until January 6, 2005.

A lot can happen - legally - between then and now.

Don't give up. Please. I still believe that John Kerry's far from finished with this matter.

[Ardee]

84. Party not dead

just on life support.
You will not give up, not if I know anything at all about your commitment....
I have turned my energies to the third party movement and community service, I'm certain you will find your center and continue to do the right thing.

[CatWoman]

49. Reminds me of a Simpsons Episode

Lisa: Mom, Dad, Bart is DEAD!!!!

Homer/Marge: OMG!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

Bart: That's right!! DEAD SERIOUS about going to Itchy and Scratchy Land!!!!

[NewJeffCT]

50. I post a lot more during the week

I'm bored at my job & have free time to post there... at home, i'm chasing a 21 month old baby.

[name not needed]

52. Yeah, it's dead.

DU now has 3 types of threads.

1. Don't buy from repuke companies. If you do, you don't support the cause and must be a freeper.

2. We're all gonna die. Whether it be bird flu, famine, peak oil, whatever, we're fucked. Stock up on tylenol and vodka.

3. Blame everyone for the election. Self explanatory.

[CatWoman]

53. and don't forget

HEZBOLLLAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Sterling]

57. Let us know how you see the world please.

You don't seem to want to do anything or acknowledge any real problems.

Should we just all get a bible and play along like our elections are legit and their will be enough fossil fuel to keep our consumer econ going.well into the next 50 years?

It sounds like you are one of those people that reality is just a little too real to take for you. Better to pretend everything is just as CNN tells you it is.

[name not needed]

64. No.

I'm just sick of seeing the same damned threads over and over again. There's a difference between being annoyed and blocking out reality.

[FizzFuzz]

62. seems to me we're going through a process, as a group

that perfectly reflects the process an individual goes through: Greif. You know the drill; Denial, Rage, Bargaining...etc.

I know I'm sure going though the emotional roller coaster. Some threads and/or posters here really scare the crap out of me, some give me hope, some remind me to take a step back and breathe, some make me think I better start buying some survivalism books.

Nothing is really clear yet, and we are flailing.

Its temporary. And yes, we are staring the unknown right in the face and its fucking fearsome.

:grouphug:

[Ardee]

85. a better process, thanks to a tombstoned former Du'er

Agitate, Antagonise, Educate, Organise

[FizzFuzz]

86. explain?

sorry I must have missed that part......

[shesemsmom]

65. It seems my moaning about DU being dead sure got the

place awake. I guess I didn't realize what all was happening or maybe to complacent. If I have offended anyone unintentionally, please accept my apologies. I would never hurt any of you on purpose. I enjoy everyones company.

[FizzFuzz]

71. I, for one, was not offended.

:D

[Arianrhod]

79. I wasn't in the least bit offended.

Actually, I thought your observation was amusing, because I had just spent about 1-1/2 hours responding to posts on here. :)

[Spiffarino]

72. Hurt my back yesterday

...and it hurts to type. I can sit and click the mouse OK, but...OW!

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

76. I have a theory that involves no conspiracy

if a lot of other DUers are like me, they got damn well burned out on politics over the last four years (I ate, slept and breathed the topic) and are now taking advantage of the holidays to take a little breather from it. It's a HIGHLY intense subject and can take a lot of emotional and mental energy.

I predict an injection of vitality in DU shortly after the New Year. I still come here because I am curious and like the place, but I haven't even touched either GD forum in ages, and I just scan LBN. That's VERY different from before the election.

That's my theory and I'm stickin' to it! LOL!

[mwdem]

78. It's totally brain dead!

Nothing's left to say, nothings left to do....

[Zomby Woof]

87. it's not dead - it just smells funny

All those hippies over in GD, pining for their pre-sellout days.

As U2's Bono said, "You glorify the past when the future dries up".

[pink-o]

88. It's not just DU that's hostile

I'm a regular on Smirkingchimp as well, and they're having the same problems

Maybe we should chalk it up to frustration. I say give ourselves till the end of the year to grouse and complain and grieve, then we all better get our asses in gear. Because only we can save our own democracy!!!!