If a republican asked you out on a date would you say no?

[rhino47]

Just based on the fact they were republican?
My husband where having a discussion about picking a new spouse for each other who would we pick.His first choice was a republican.My reaction was no freaking way.Just based on the rethuglican thing.
(hubby is a republican though he did work for kerrys campaign)

[ScreamingMeemie]

1. No. I mean yes...I mean No, I wouldn't say no.

;) :hi:

[Mr. Flibble]

77. Oh raspberries, you beat me to it!

:cry:

:D :D :D

:hi:

[lenidog]

2. When I was dating I really never asked to see their voter registration

card and I figure if it works for Carville and his wife maybe it will work for me.

[dbonds]

3. Friends don't let friends date republicans.

[Silverhair]

That sounds like a question a girl would ask.

Guys usually have other concerns regarding the datability of a girl.

[GiovanniC]

39. I'm a Guy

And I dumped a girl once for being a Republican. Well, scratch that, I didn't dump her for being a Republican per se, I dumped her because she thought that Bush was great.

[Silverhair]

49. That's AFTER the first date.

The thrust of the OP seemed to be toward first dates. Most guys don't worry about a girl's politics for a first date. That can indeed come into play when a relationship starts to be considered.

[GiovanniC]

51. If I Had Known Ahead of Time

There wouldn't have been a first date.

[Silverhair]

63. When I was single, I had only one criteria for a first date.

What did she look like?

Shallow - yes. But at the time I was young and immature, and my attitude was shared by ALL the young men that I knew. And I really don't think that today's young men are any different. If they were different then Sports Illustrated would not bother to publish a Swimsuit issue, and Playboy would have gone out of business long ago.

[GiovanniC]

65. Well Not All Young Men Are The Same

I dated for a specific reason... I was looking for someone I was compatible with. If a girl was rah-rah for the war, that makes my stomach turn. If a girl is racist, homophobic, anti-choice, et cetera, that makes it pretty difficult for me to find her attractive no matter how she looks on the outside.

I simply never really was interested in wasting my time with girls whose beliefs turned my stomach.

[fudge stripe cookays]

67. Way to go Giovanni!

If I waasn't married and I was a few years younger, we'd have been perfect!

FSC

[GiovanniC]

70. Well I Finally Found What I Was Looking For

Getting married December 31 of this year.

All this sheer awesomeness was bound to get snapped up sooner or later.

[fudge stripe cookays]

72. Congratulations!

I wish you much happiness.
:party:

reprehensor and I are coming up on 5 years in July, and we have a wonderful progressive marriage. Hope you have the same.

Breed some more liberals for us, ya'll!
FSC

[Silverhair]

75. Your were mate shopping, not just dating.

Most young men put those two in different categories. In fact, I suspect that most young men aren't mate shopping, but it sneaks up on them.

Most young men are date shopping, and are more interested in the packaging than any other aspect, except bedability.

As I said, if that were not so, Playboy would have gone out of business long ago.

[GiovanniC]

76. Well, To Me, Dating IS Mate Shopping

If I'm only interested in sex, hookers are cheaper in the long run.

If I'm only interested in cool conversation, my friends are cooler.

If I'm only interested in a kind and caring companion, I'd get a dog.

If I'm only interested intelligence, conservatives are disqualified.

If I wanted all of the above and more, I'd get my fiance... so that's what I did!

[Silverhair]

79. Congratulations on finding her.

I understand how important that is, for I long ago found the same for me. But when I found here, I wasn't looking for her, if you understand what I mean. For me, it was like a bolt from the blue, a total sudden wonderful surprise that I wasn't looking for. And at the time, I didn't care about her politics, which it turns out, were identical to mine.

But at the time I was single, a date was a date was a date. I wasn't looking for a relationship, just a hot date. Back then, each day was lived for itself. My primary criteria was looks.

And I will maintain that for MOST young men, it is still that way. Not only still that way, but has always been that way. Very few of the ancient plays or dramas mention anything about a heroine except her looks. How much do we know of Helen of Troy, or Cleopatra? They had to have been strong women, especially Cleopatra, but the main thing we know is that they were drop dead gorgeous. Men lost their minds over them because they were HOT !!

[Wilber_Stool]

4. If she takes me to a nice place

and pays, why not. As long as I don't have to sleep with her.

[purr]

5. Nope..

Never brought up politics with a date.. its a disaster waiting to happen. Once I feel comfortable enough I might but until then, I dont want to know and just to enjoy myself.

On the other hand, I married a republican :)

[Technowitch]

6. I'd say no, if I knew.

As far as I'm concerned these days, they're the party of legalized torture, wars of aggression, breaches of civil rights, and the bankrupting of the country.

But that's just me.

[rhino47]

8. Exactly how I feel Technowitch

I am not trying to make a blanket statement but most republican males in my area ( the huge mouthbreathing T of pa ) are racist small minded and closet freaks.
If they feel torture,unjust wars,stomping all over civil rights is ok thats not a values system I want in my life.

[Dhalgren]

7. Right now, at this point in our history?

Yes, I would say no. At a time in the past, maybe (hard to believe) and at some point in the future (harder still to believe) I might say yes to becoming close to a Republican; but here and now, with the Republicans trying their damnedest to destroy our nation and doing so with a snarl on their lips? No - and hell no!

[saracat]

9. No. Most are traitors to this nation.

How could you even have a conversation with anyone who was either stupid or evil? Which is what it takes to vote for Bush! the ONLY exception would be a Rockefeller liberal Republican who worked for Kerry! The others should all be raptured!:)

[progmom]

14. that's harsh

To say that half the country is stupid or evil? What about misguided? Gullible? Motivated by fear? There were a lot of elements at play leading up to the election. To dismiss so many people out of hand would be a shame.

[saracat]

15. What part of those descriptions don't fit into

stupid or evil? For instsnce,"misguided? Gullible? Motivated by fear" all are stupid. Others such as security , wealth, and imposition of morality all translate as evil. I am merely being simplistic. There are obvious levels but they still are offshoots of the same elements. I have hopes that some may repent now that they see what they have wrought! :)

[Lone Pawn]

38. You're REALLY oversimplifying.

First of all, there are stupid parties on both sides. Hang around GD long enough, and you'll see our idiots. Hang around FR for, oh, one thread, and you'll see theirs. Both are motivated by pure ideology. Both define 'goodness' and 'intelligent politics' inside their ideology. In reality, both are kinda silly. To claim "They're all out to get America!" is stupid. To claim "War is always evil, and every war we've ever fought in is evil!" is stupid. Both are incredibly simplistic ways of looking at the world.

As for evil, we hold some things dear, and they hold some things dear. Taking their assumptions of what is highest good (tradition, fundamentalist Christianity, America as a world power), they're good and we're evil. Taking our assumptions of what is highest good (equality, compassion, do-no-harm), we're good and they're evil.

For instince, the abortion debate. If you believe that fetuses are actual, living human beings on the same level as you or I, then you cannot logically and morally believe abortion is not murder. Their religions teach that from conception, all humans are naturally worthwhile. Therefore they are against abortion. We take a more refined, nuanced stand on the beginning of life on par with yours and mine, and take in more factors than just the fetus. Therefore, legal abortion, by most of us, is acceptable. But neither side can be called evil for the assumptions they hold.

Some Republicans--many of them, actually--think that our venture in Iraq, though counterproductive at the moment, will truly lead to a stable Mideast. With this belief, how could one be opposed to the war? With this belief, OPPOSITION to war is evil. With our beliefs, opposition to war is the only possible recourse.

No, they're not stupid and they're not evil. Some are. Some of ours are stupid, and some of ours are evil too. Perhaps they have more idiots. But that doesn't mean all of them are idiots. And pretending they're all evil or stupid can only lead to underestimation--always a bad idea in war of any type, political or military. Not to mention turn off quite a few moderates.

[saracat]

43. I stick with my original contention. The "stupid appellation" has plenty

room in it for such phrases as "willfully uninformed " etcetera. I am not talking about "war' per se. I am talking about anyone who would vote for Bush. The information available proving that he is both a war criminal and a liar is overwhelming. Not a day goes by that something new doesn't surface about this administration. The fact that anyone could overlook all of this information, even allowing for the fact that they didn't WANT to see it , put s them in one of the two categories. I say they are traitors because for the most part they continued to support o President who LIED to take this nation to war. If they don't believe he lied they ARE just stupid. And if they Know he lied , they are evil with there own agenda. Sometimes things are that simple.
As far as some of your other statements, I never brought up the abortion issue or the issue of the war. I also never said "all wars are evil" . I maintained my point of view only in regard for people who voted for Bush.

[Lone Pawn]

44. Were you paying attention?

I never said anything about you. I said that DUers could be just as 'stupid' as Freepers in their points, and I mentioned abortion to show how your assumptions determine your choices. You assume Bush is basically evil. That paints his career in a different light than a Freeper who assumes Bush is basically good. If you respond with the words "But Bush IS evil" I will not respond, by the way. I don't know how many ways I can make a point about basic psychology on this god-damned forum and have it misinterpreted.

Moreover, there is NOT overwhelming evidence that Bush knowingly lied. There's overwhelming evidence that the intelligence sucked. There's lots of antecdotal evidence, circumstantial evidence, innuendo, accusations, and suggestions that Bush knew. But certainly there isn't so much that faith in the government is impossible. Unless, of course, you think that Bush is some intellectual giant that could somehow interpret the ground situation even better than all of his advisors.

Moreover, I know quite a few Republicans who think he lied and thought he was lying at the time, but still support the war for other reasons. Two were part of the Democracy To The Mideast crowd even back in '96. They think, "What the hell. The government has lied about literally every single war we were in up to and including the American Revolution. What makes this one any different? All that matters is the end result, and if we keep it up, we'll likely spread democracy and free-market economics, both of which will improve the lives of millions upon millions." Do I agree with them? No. But it's certainly not evil. And claiming "OMG the republacans are EVIL!!!!!!!" is not remotely helpful towards defeating them.

Bush-voters are not evil, and are not the enemy. They are people--real, intelligent, good people--that are misguided by extremely intelligent people with moral beliefs opposite ours. That's how we should approach them. Find a middle ground, then show how our beliefs best flow from that middle ground. You won't win a single vote by calling a voter you haven't won over yet 'evil.'

[saracat]

48. Paying attention? You said "I " was oversimplifying..

My response was that it was simple. And I don't give Bush personally any credit for anything. He is a puppet. His misadministration is evil. And yes, there is "overwhelming evidence" that Bush lied. And the faith in this misadministration should be "impossible". I also take issue with the contention that Bush voters are"--real, intelligent, good people--that are misguided by extremely intelligent people with moral beliefs opposite ours." This is baloney. If they were intelligent they wouldn't be misguided. And as far as their votes go, they are NEVER going to vote for us, and those that think they will, are misguided. There IS NO middle ground. If one thinks there is, one didn't pay any attention during this last election. I am uninterested in prostituting our party in order to pander to those who do not represent our values. Yes . Democrats have values too, and one of those is not "selling out " to the other side ,in order to get a vote! The very fact that one would NOT consider the actions of this regime and those that support it as evil .totally appalls me. The wipe out of our middle class, the people dying without medical care, and the soldiers dying for nothing, stand testament to the evil of this administration and those that "willingly" support it .
We need to inspire the 79 million who did not vote. we don't need to troll for votes on the other side!

[fudge stripe cookays]

68. I understand what you're saying, saracat.

To me, "willfully uninformed" in this day and age translates as "stupid."

To keep yourself ignorant when our nation is in the throes of what could be its death march, is really stupid or really tragic.

I'm glad I'm married and paying attention. When I was single, I was ignorant of everything for a long time. I hated politics. But it gets to a point where you can't ignore everything going on around you. That time is now.

I could never consent to date a Republican. To anyone who points fingers at us and says "That's really shallow," there is absolutely no way I could sacrifice everything I believe for a little physical pleasure with someone. There would be absolutely nothing for me to talk to the person about in the meantime.

My husband has been wonderful as I've gone off and volunteered for Dean in Iowa, marched in Washington, worked at local events getting out the vote. You think a Republican would support me when I do that stuff? Hell, no.

I spit on them all.
FSC

[murielm99]

10. I have been married to a fellow Democrat for a long time.

I ask my kids though, when they date someone new. I can't force them to do anything, but they know I do not approve of them dating repukes.

[rhino47]

12. Murielm99 what would you do if your child decides to date a repuke?

I think I would be disappointed with my daughters dated one.
The reason being they are in so many ways against womans issues.Though in the repugs defense they might be voting one issue such as guns or small goverment.
I saw a survey once that repukes outnumber liberals 4 to 1 on being abusers.I will see if I can google this.
It has been like 7 years since someone had sent it to me via email.

[murielm99]

19. Disappointed is a good way to put it.

I would tell my girls, and my son, that I was disappointed.

I would tell them that they could end up having problems in a relationship where the values and viewpoints are so opposed. But I would not stop them from dating a repuke.

I would use reasons like the ones you used for my girls.

I would ask my son what he wants in the mother of his children. How does he want them raised? Does he want them to learn to think for themselves?

So far, my kids have not disappointed me. My oldest daughter is in a relationship with a woman who is a solid Democrat. Her mother and I met, and were talking politics within thirty seconds. She is a Democrat, too.

My son dates a girl who is more progressive than he is. My youngest is involved in feminist causes, and with her college Democrats. I am not worried.

[Lisa0825]

22. Here's a scenario....

Mom, Dad... I have something to tell you. I'm dating a Republican. *gasp* (Mom nearly faints). Mom, I'm sorry. It's OK. The truth is, I'm gay (or dating outside my race). Mom cries tears of happiness, and hugs her baby.

:evilgrin:

Honestly, I think people of all races and sexualities are just great, but I'd rather have nothing to do with Republicans.

[Bouncy Ball]

30. LOL!!!

That was funny!

That's about how I would react, too!

[Rob H.]

11. I work with a single, Republican woman

and some of the condescending things she says about liberals irritate me, to say the least. For example, whenever any liberal criticizes Bush, it's because "they're all a bunch of whiners" while conveniently forgetting the Don't Blame Me, I Voted for Bush bumperstickers that were slapped on cars all across the country the split-second after the election was called for Clinton in '92, followed by eight years of RW dirty tricks and four more years (and counting) of Clinton jokes when he isn't even in the White House anymore. (Honestly, how is it humanly possible to be so pompous and ignorant at the same time?)

It might be less based on politics and more based on the fact that there'll be ice-skating in Hell before I go out with someone who looks down her nose at me based on what my politics are.

[redqueen]

13. Depends.

If they support the current crop of republicans, then by all means yes. If they were principled, I might say yes.

[txaslftist]

16. I would absolutely say no..

because I'm married.

[LynneSin]

17. Hell yes!!

I've done enough dating in my lifetime to know that I could never EVER date a repuke idiot!

[Anarcho-Socialist]

18. I couldn't absolutely rule it out...

...but it would be a major sticking point. A prospective partner who is left-wing is a huge attraction for me.

My partner is a major liberal and feminist. It does make me happy. Even though we don't agree on everything politically.

[DrDan]

20. absolutely not!

It would really anger my wife

[Lisa0825]

21. Yes.

I'd say no. I was married to a moderate Republican, but I wasn't involved in politics back then. Now politics is too important to me, and I honestly don't think I could possibly be close to a Republican.

Now if it was just a fling, maybe, but not a real date;-)
:blush:

[NoSheep]

23. Pleeeeeze, do you have to ask?

:wtf:

[noonwitch]

24. It depends on how much money he plans to spend on me!

Just kidding-personality is more important. If he's nice, and not a Hannity-type, yes.

[skygazer]

25. This begs the real question

Why are you and your hubby picking new mates?

Seriously, I can't say either yes or no. It would depend on the person. The qualities I look for in a person tend to mean that the person will be a progressive. I have dated a couple of republicans in the past - the two I can think of were extremely moderate and had little interest in politics anyway. They didn't last but I don't think that was the main reason.

[rhino47]

26. We were just talking and the subject came up

It was kinda of interesting to see how he his taste and mine are really quite alike.
Outside of his second choice for me (the republican wingnut)

[Huckebein the Raven]

27. With the current breed of lizard people posing as repukes, no fucking way

Now one like the Adam Alda character on the West Wing and maybe...

[Bouncy Ball]

28. I would say no.

Even if I were single, I would still say no. ;-)

It's a question of values, ethics, morals. Theirs are so off-base it's frightening.

No way in hell. I don't care WHAT they look like, either. What the hell would we talk about? The weather?

Ick. Shudders. And FWIW, I feel perfectly ok discriminating against someone for their political leanings because you CHOOSE that. You can't choose your skin color, ethnicity, sexuality, gender, etc. I don't discriminate against people for things they can't help. But for choices they make? Heck yeah. We all do.

[GOPBasher]

29. No, I wouldn't date a Republican seriously. n/t

[Deep13]

31. The first time I talked to my wife ...

... it was on the telephone. When it seemed like we had compatable personalities, I had three questions for her that were pretty much non-negotiable for me.
1. Was she a nonsmoker? (yup.)
2. Did she not want to have children? (yup. Or is it nope? Anyway, she did not want them.)
3. Was she a Democrat or willing to become one? (Not a citizen, but supported D principles.)

I felt these matters were so central to my thinking that there was no point continuing if we disagreed on any of them.

[Demonaut]

32. of course, how could you possibly date a supporter of bush*

it goes against all logic

[huskerlaw]

33. If he was enough of a repub

that I actually knew he was a repub, then I would likely say no. I won't date people I have nothing in common with...or rather, completely disagree with. What's the point?

[bertha katzenengel]

34. No, I wouldn't say no for that. (But I would say no because I'm married.)

:bounce:

[Lone Pawn]

35. Depends on the Republican.

It's a strike against them, but not a killer.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

36. It depends

If they were a radical wingnut like Limbaugh or Falwell, then hell no. But if they were Republican based on the idea of fiscal responisbilty then I wouldn't have a problem. To tell the truth, my favorite girlfriends have been centrists, depite the fact that I, myself, am very liberal.

[InvisibleTouch]

37. I might accept a date...

...if he was buying. ;) But I'd not get emotionally involved, and I'd not stand for disparaging remarks about liberals or Democrats. Who knows, maybe the guy could be educated, so it's worth a shot - but if it becomes apparent that he's a hopeless case, I'd be outta there. It's not my responsibility to rescue him from his own ignorance.

[Misunderestimator]

40. Definitely. No way could I live with that much argument.

And I couldn't help but argue with a Republican, especially a modern-day one. Besides, I already have a perfectly suitable liberal. :)

[Catchawave]

41. Of course there are more important reasons than political leanings...

otherwise I wouldn't have stayed married to one for 36 years! He also supported Edwards during the primaries, but dropped out after Kerry was the nom....that Vietnam thing, alot of vets won't forgive JK for that.

[BiggJawn]

42. If she was a Fair-Dinkum ReTHUGlican, then she'd be shit in bed.

And I'm sorry, but as long as I can still laugh at the cialis commercials, that's very important to me.

I can't imagine a ReTHUG woman being comfortable enough in her own skin or adventurous enough out of her clothes to thrill me.

Hell, some wonderful Liberal women have problems in that department.....

[Left Is Write]

45. Yes, I would say no, because I'm married.

:D

[Book Lover]

46. I would never date a republican

But I'd have fun fucking him over...

[crispini]

80. Hahahahahahahaha!

Niiiiice. :evilgrin:

[GalleryGod]

47. Why Of course

:rant: No Retreat. No Surrender:patriot:
Remember?:dilemma:

[RetroLounge]

50. I would never date a Repug, ever.

I'm already writing off life-long friends and ready for family members too.

Traitors to this country are no friends of mine.

RL

[Dukkha]

52. Not a chance in HELL!

No way would I date the enemy unless my intention was to give her an STD which I don't have.

[Cobalt Violet]

53. I could never be desperate enough to date a republican.

[R. A. Fuqua]

54. I HAVE dated

women with political views all across the spectrum. Although I have tended to have the best long-term relationships with people who have political views similar to mine (probably because politics is very important to me) I have not had any problems dating people who had different political beliefs. (also different religious beliefs--ethnic backgrounds etc) Hey--I am a LIBERAL man--I have an open mind. And in some cases, I believe that I have opened THEIR minds up a little bit.

*I have dated MANY woman--and my dating experiences have been mostly positive--with no political problems of any kind.

[WindRavenX]

55. I have the following criteria:

I am a political person, and I cannot deal with:
-homophobic, racist, misogynist men
-any man that is threatened by me being a politically active feminist
-APATHY OF ANY KIND.

I highly doubt a Republican could escape these criteria.
I just CANNOT. DEAL. WITH. THEM.

[Scout1071]

56. I have turned down dates because of it.

I wouldn't rule it out altogether because part of me really enjoys the debate. If someone is knowledgable, then why not? I draw the line at the Kool-Aid drinkers.

[JVS]

57. No. If our Democratic leaders are chummy with Republicans, why...

shouldn't we be?

[tjdee]

58. No--I'd have to find out how Republican they were first.

I'd go, and if it's a Rushbot freeper, buh-bye.

I would never have that problem, though, as most Rushbot freepers aren't dating black chicks.

[6000eliot]

59. No

because my SO (registered Republican) would not like it. He's never voted repub since we've been together, and I keep bugging him to change party affiliation, but he doesn't think it's that important.

[LisaL]

60. No, I would say YES, but make his life HELL.

:evilgrin:

[tammywammy]

61. No

I live in the DFW area, and I find there's a lot of people my age that say they're republican, but more like moderates. Or they say they're republican, but once you start talking about things, they'll end up agreeing with you.

Plus, I don't classify myself as a democrat, but as an independant. I say that, because I like to research each position. This is for me only, I don't want to become a "label" and then feel the need to shut myself off from what the other side really thinks. I want to understand why. And I feel if I label myself, I'll be setting an unconscience roadblock in my general knowledge.

And I've dated a true republican. He had come back from being a helicopter contractor in Iraq. Even if we didn't disagree on things, we always had a good time. And the last time I hung out with him, he was really disappointed with the current administration. So, there's always a light at the end of the tunnel, even with republicans.

[pres2032]

62. no, politics don't matter

what matters is the person. whether or not we connect, whether or not she has a good personality. As with politics, I am perfectly capable of making fun of my party and if she can do the same towards hers, or doesn't take it so seriously that it creeps into everything, then we will be fine together.

[saracat]

81. Uhhh. How could you connect if the person doesn't share your basic values?

And if politics isn't important I sure home your screen name is wrong!

[Skittles]

64. I can no longer tolerate republicans

they are supporting an agenda that is absolutely trashing America - I do see them as either uninformed or assholes and either way I would not care to date them.

[Zorra]

66. Basically, you have to be a nasty rotten human being to be a republican,

so what is the point of dating someone you already know is a creep?

Being a republican is a choice.

[LostinVA]

69. Yes.

[El Fuego]

71. It depends on how right wing they are

Some Republicans are just misguided because they haven't yet realized that their party left them.

I certainly would not date a republican of the TRULY EVIL variety, like our Office Freeper.

[luvLLB]

73. No Repug would DARE ask me out!!!!

[marions ghost]

74. Would not consider it for a second...

I like people who
--are flexible, generous, tolerant
--are unconcerned with appearances and status, non-materialistic
--are cooperative rather than highly competitive and exploitative
--who understand that there is a kind of morality that transcends whatever can be made to seem "legal"
--who do not operate out of fear and suspicion and insecurity
--who have a beauty that radiates from within

"Republican" is not generally consistent with these qualities I have found out the hard way.

[alarimer]

78. well it depends on the Republican

A very conservative one (or Tom Delay), not if they were the last one on earth!

[Bok_Tukalo]

82. Of course not.

That's a bit silly.

Are so many that close minded?

[tammywammy]

84. I think there's plenty of people that won't date someone that's on the

other side of the political spectrum (either way).

I myself wouldn't date an anti-choice, racist or homophobic. But, I know a lot of "moderates" that may classify themselves as republicans..but they're not really.

Plus, many people are fiscal conservatives and social liberals.

[Bok_Tukalo]

85. Homophobia and racism aren't the same as party affiliation

And neither is a person's belief in the rights of the individual in the womb vs the rights of the individual in whose womb they reside.

[tammywammy]

89. I agree with that

I wasn't meaning to imply that republican = a homophobic racist anti-choice.

I'm stating that those are people that I wouldn't date, regardless of who they vote for.

[JohnKleeb]

83. I dont know

I'd probably acecpt, if someone is decent enough to see the good qualities in me to ask me out, I'd be happy. I sort actually have a crush on a republican now, and you know what, I have no problem with that since she respects me and my views alot.

[WMliberal]

86. Fundie or Rockefeller Republican?

I could do it. Wait. Bad word choice :blush:

[magnussun]

87. NO!

I say no to any partisan, democrat or republican. I prefer free thinkers. Those who can't think beyond the party line cannot possibly be intellectually stimulating.

[HEyHEY]

88. Depends how easy they were known to be