I just don't GET Anarchists or Economic Libertarians!

[JanMichael]

To me? Same (mostly) shit different (mostly) label.

Neither has a rat's ass idea how to run sewer & water to all residents. Maybe they do but it's pure theory.

Nor have they a clue as to the importance of Flood Mitigation or Public Safety.

Better yet, food, where's it come from? An independant relationship (ONE PERSON) between grower and buyer? Riiiiight. Try to make a great bisque with those limitations!

Roads? Public Transportation? How do they get built, and maintained, osmosis? Magic?

Ooooh....Healthcare? Barter?

[HEyHEY]

1. I totally agree with you

I think it is a phase many go through...we once had anarchy. Ever seen the beastmaster...that's what it'd be like.

[THUNDER HANDS]

2. libertarians

I consider myself a left-leaning libertarian. I don't mind paying taxes but I think privacy is a very good thing.

[JanMichael]

3. Semantics. I'm a Personal Libertarian.

Just not an Economic one.

Perhaps I should make that clear...Ooops! Just did:-)

[JanMichael]

4. Better yet since I'm contemplating Miami next week...

...I'm an occasioanal Anarchist. But not after the final smoke clears:-)

[leftyandproud]

5. um...you have MAJOR misconceptions..

anarchists are just whackos...Libertarians, I have more respect for. I believe the are WRONG, but at least they can back up their biliefs with relatively well-reasoned arguments. Simply..they tend to instinctively favor market based solutions over government based solutions. Get government out of the way...let supply, demand, and the profit motive take care of things. That about sums up their position on economic issues.. ..And on social issues/civil rights, etc, they simply see no role for the government to play in those areas either...They see it as an infringement on personal liberty...abortion...drugs...prostitution...whatever you want is fine, so long as you don't hurt others or use force in the process. They do advocate a minimal military on the federal level and have no problem with state police/ems/fire forces on the local level. Anything outside roads, courts, and basic services like the ones mentioned however, they tend to disagree with. Does that clear things up a bit?

[JanMichael]

6. I disagree with just about everything you described, sweet.

No misconceptions whatsoever:-)

I limited my dismay to "Economic" Anarchists...Ooops...Libertarians:-)

[JanMichael]

7. Forgot to add how ignorantly beautifully the Economic Libertarians are...

....it's a gas, really.

I've debated these people for what seems years, no it WAS years, and the best I can say is that the 8 hour day and anti-trust laws are their enemy.

Brilliant stuff, really.:eyes:

[SlavesandBulldozers]

8. certainly

but the founding premise amongst anarchist/libertarian philosophy that is inherently suspicious of power is definitely ingrained in American culture. there is an undercurrent of anarchism in the Declaration of Independance, and likewise in all Americans, no matter which way they lean politically.

i don't see why anarchism/libertarianism would prevent the proverbial sewers from being built, as both of these philosophies deal more with government than with economics. For instance, it is just as possible to have a social security system under libertarianism as it is under our current situation (which is, just what again?) And as every social-libertarian will tell you, there is a vast difference between a libertarian and a Liberarian (as in the political party.)

[SlavesandBulldozers]

9. clarification/sp correction

there is a difference between social libertarians and Libertarians (as in the politcal party, with caps).

[JanMichael]

11. Please enlighten me!

"i don't see why anarchism/libertarianism would prevent the proverbial sewers from being built, as both of these philosophies deal more with government than with economics."

Please explain how they'd criss-cross the country without certain property tax revenue tools:shrug:

Seriously. What environment are we talking about? The Federal, State, Regional Authority, County, Municipality, MSBU (or many others:-) ), Deed Restriction, Et Freakincetera!

Most people are completely unaware of the amount of government that invisibly lays over them...


PS~ In Michaels World (Crazy Socialist), not a problem:-)

[KG]

10. ya know, i don't 'get' a lot of things.

but i don't spam the lounge with whiney threads about them, dammit! :)

[JanMichael]

12. Oh go have sex!

Sorry...My wife is 650 miles away so I "feel" for ya':-)

PS~ Monday will kick some serious ass...Question: Wanna hit Miami Tuesday?

[KG]

14. wtf is in miami?

gonna hit the dog tracks?

[Skip Intro]

13. Libertarianism

lib·er·tar·i·an ( P ) Pronunciation Key (lbr-târ-n)
n.
One who advocates maximizing individual rights and minimizing the role of the state.
One who believes in free will.

---------------------

I like the sound of that! I guess libertarians apply the same minimalization of the role of the state to economic activity as well, which is your question.

My view is, if infrastructure is maintained, and the needs of the less fortunate are seen to, and environmental needs and defense needs are seen to, I have no, no, no problem with libertarianism. I do have a problem with excessive laws and authority, from any political force.

I do think government should be held accountable to the people they SERVE, as should corporations. But freedom should be a driving force in our society, much more so than it is.

I see, eventually, a melding of Democratic, Libertarian, and Green principles into a new political party.

I hope I'm not seen as any less a Dem for holding those views.

[Ellen Forradalom]

15. DUer ProfessorGAC hates 'em too

The Professor knows his shit when it comes to economics. He says it best when he says that the basic problem with libertarians is that their understanding of economics ends with its rudiments. They worship supply and demand, but supply and demand, he says, is just the beginning of economics, not the end-all and be-all.

You should PM him for a very interesting conversation indeed.

[amazona]

16. well, it's just naivete really...

The same people who complain that Don King is allowed to promote boxing matches will then turn around and not want any government to act as a referee in their dealings with large corporations.

It took a few years but I figured out that, to be a libertarian, and to support a small government, meant that unless I was already born at the top, I would never have a chance at being anything except a victim. You need a referree in this wicked world. Every suburb would already be Love Canal if not for the courts and the government, led kicking and screaming to enforcement by the people. We need a government as large and as powerful as the big corporations.

You are right to ask if they believe in magic, for that's exactly what they do believe -- that market forces will "magically" create the best of all possible worlds based on self interest. Now, a bit of observation should tell you that 1) it is impossible to know the future to such a degree that you would always even know what your own self-interest is -- hell, often you can't even know in advance which movie is better worth your $8, and 2) we see people acting against their own self-interest every day -- racist boobs voting to harm their own social safety net and free schooling for their kids because a black kid might be educated is the prime example that always springs to my mind. So it should be obvious that the whole concept of people acting in their own self-interest is a joke and an oversimplification of how life works.

But what can I say. Libertarians are idiots, and when I was libertarian, I was an idiot too.

[Nikia]

17. Libertarians are idealists

They forget that most of our current regualations and government programs are reactionary. They weren't just made up to increase the size of government. Some were reations to some very serious abuses by corporations. Current corporations are even bigger and more powerful than they were 100 years ago when many of these regulations came into being. Sure, it would be nice if consumer pressure kept businesses self regulated and business and people would give to worthy people in need, but we already know that does not happen to the extent that it needs to in order for things to be no worse than they already are.