So, why are actors/musicians usually liberal but sportsplayers are repuke?

[LynneSin]

Actors, Musicians and Sportsplayers are 3 groups of people who have the ability to make huge, obscene amounts of money based on their ability to perform a skill really really well. I mean, I played sports, starred in a few high school plays and could play the clarinet and yet I'm stuck in a job working with computers making an average salary.

And yet if you can hone one of those skills to the ultimate level you could win an Academy Award, sell out your concert tour to millions of people or end up in a Sports Hall-of-Fame.

So if you look at the celebrities of each field it always seems that the Actors & Musicians tend to end up liberal and yet sportsplayers, especially some of the most notable superstars end up being republican.

What gives - what happened that Tim Robbins can lead the charge against the Bush administration and yet a Lynn Swann thinks he can win the governor position in Pennsylvania?

[redqueen]

1. I think it might have something to do with intellect.

Just a guess.

[dr.strangelove]

7. Play that dumb jock stereotype up more

I'm fairly sure that superstar athletes have a very similar average IQ when compared to artists and performance artists. The education system may treat them very differently, but intellect has nothing to do with knowledge. I would suggest it has to do with tax rates over a much shorter earning span. The average athlete's career is under 4 four years for football and five years for baseball, don't know about basketball and hockey or other high paid sports, but I assume it is about the same. Athletes depend on making as much as they can over a very short period. Higher taxes tend to impact someone with a five year income potential more than someone with a 30 year income potential. I assume you are talking about the very best in these areas, as opposed to a "league minimum" athlete or a small part actor/struggling artist.

[redqueen]

9. Yeah cause it's so not true.

[dr.strangelove]

12. Exactly - it is so NOT true

Lumping star athletes together is insane. There are star athletes that are incredibly well spoken and very intelligent. While there are certainly star athletes who fall below average on the IQ scale, I doubt it is in any higher percentage than most blue collar jobs.

[redqueen]

13. And the blue collar votes go to repubs because.... ?

[dr.strangelove]

17. What are you talking about?

Every blue collar worker I know is a die-hard democrat. Also, if you are implying that blue collar workers are less intelligent than white collar types I think you are wrong. In fact if this is how you feel, let me know, so I can stop talking with you on the subject because such a position would probably anger me to the point where I would say something inappropriate and I don't enjoy doing that.

[redqueen]

23. You said the average is no different from blue collar workers

You think they're mostly staunch democrats, huh? Funny how union membership is declining... and how many of them vote for repugs.

[dr.strangelove]

35. So you are saying that blue collar workers are less intelligent

I just wanted to confirm that. A position like that is sure to be effective in driving up union membership and recruiting from the largest employment sector in the country. I really have to cut this conversation off now. Even suggesting that a plumber is somehow less intelligent than some college educated office worker panders to the right's stereotype that liberal are elitists. Though comments like yours make me understand how that particular stereotype has taken hold.

Please rethink your position. There are no statistics that I am aware of that suggest that the average IQ of those workers who wear a uniform is lower than those who wear business attire. Most of my best friends are blue-collar workers. You appear to be suggesting that because of their choice of employment it is socially acceptable to assume they are less intelligent than people who chose to work with a computer or sit behind a desk all day. This is such an offensive proposition that I am surprised one who considers herself a liberal can even type it out.

[mantrid]

62. Thanks Dr S.

Superb post. Dead on.

[dr.strangelove]

66. Thank you and Welcome to DU

[hfojvt]

80. also, it is somewhat strange, if you think about it

Almost every pro athelete has a college degree, certainly much higher than the national average.

I would point to the different sociology - actors and musicians are coming from either NYC or LA for the most part, and both of those are very liberal environments. Sports people are almost in the military, under the tutelage of hard-driving, disciplined and discipling coaches. Almost like 20 years of boot camp from HS until they retire.

[dr.strangelove]

83. is that true, do most pro-athletes have completed degrees?

I would have thought most do not finish the degrees, but that is just a guess based on the number of athletes who leave college early. I have ever seen any stats on this point.

I also don't believe its accurate that most actors and musicians are coming from either NYC or LA. They may have gotten to LA or NYC for the business end of their art, but would suspect the areas where performers grow up are far more widespread. I don;t think NYC or LA liberalism will effect someone who arrives in these places after establishing themselves as an artist and develops somewhere else. Also, I'm not sure NYC is really all that liberal. Very democrat leaning, but as we here on DU know, that is hardly the same thing.

I think you are probably correct with the discipline impacting an athlete.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

78. Wait a second.

People who make under $50,000 are the only group that a majority voted for Kerry. Most support for the rethugs come from the middle and upper classes.

[dr.strangelove]

81. That was my understanding, but not my point

There is no doubt that blue collar workers vote overwhelmingly liberal. Lower income earners voted for Kerry by a significant margin.

Now, my point was the insane proposition that wearing a uniform to work somehow makes you less intelligent. I come from a family of union plumbers, cops, firemen and a few painters and electricians. My grandpa was NYPD for 17 years before he was injured in the line, then he went to night school and became a middle school teacher until he retired. That blue collar worker was the smartest man I ever met.

I take a great deal of offense that just because someone wears a tie they are more intelligent then the person delivering his UPS packages or installing her new bathroom.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

40. I doubt that.

Yes, some of our school's athletes fit the dumb jock stereotype, but many others were some of our top students. Also, I've known artists and musicians who are some of the most self centered jerks on this planet.

[dr.strangelove]

44. Not to mention that artists and actors

are just as likely as any those who choose other career path to have a less than average IQ. There are actors and artists who are intelligent, and those that are not.

[Greyhound]

47. Have you known many actors? In my experience Geena Davis'

are the rare exceptions, Tom Cruises are the general rule. To quote The Producers "...but actors are people", "Have you ever eaten with one?". :D

[dr.strangelove]

50. Funny

Certainly playing on dumb-actor stereotypes is useful in comedies like the producers, but I still believe the stereotype is misplaced. There are actors and actresses who are "dumb as dirt" and those who could have made it as mathematicians, but went with the higher paying gig as television or film performer.

[Greyhound]

52. Thanks, are you in the biz? I ask because the overwhelming

majority of those I know are not among the brightest people I've met.

[dr.strangelove]

56. Not in the biz, as you say.

I am a lawyer with clients "in the biz," though my clients are more the "money people" and rarely (actually only once) the performers. The performers I have known are far more the struggling type that the big star type. Performers can go either way though. Just as athletes are often given a pass in school and social settings that allow them to use their intelligence in different ways than non-athletes, certain performance artists, mostly the beautiful people type, are given passes that give them the same benefits and costs. There are "smart" and "dumb" people in most fields. I know some dumb lawyers who may have graduated from a top law school, but I would not hire them.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

48. i agree and a lot of actors go to college too

and college education often makes people more liberal esp with the social issues (abortion, civil rights etc)

[Common Sense Party]

53. I hope you don't think actors are our best and brightest.

On average, they come across as intellectual lightweights.

[SoCalDem]

2. People in the arts do not compete against stop watches , yard markers

other pplayers, and keep scores..

Artistic people measure their worth by the attention they get from people who feel a GUT reaction, or a cerebral response . Artistic people elicit a response that comes from inside a person.. Repube sports celebs are voyeuristically and passively enjoyed by people who are at the same time, repulsed and admired by their fans.

very little brain power is involved in watching rich guys drive fast cars or big rich guys tackle or sweat all over each other while chasing a ball of some sort.

my .02

[dolo amber]

3. Because they're rich

now. Far more artistic types come from middle class upbringings than sports types.

[Spider Jerusalem]

4. Athletes tend not to be very intellectual, on the whole.

Or even very bright, for that matter. Just watch postgame interviews: 'Yeah, I think we're playing real well, just gotta keep running the ball and blah blah blah'. Not to mention that actors and musicians are more likely to march to the beat of a different drummer; athletes (especially those who play team sports)tend to be the sort of people who believe in rigid social hierarchies and need someone to tell them what to do. (There are, of course, exceptions in both cases.)

[redqueen]

25. Hey, where's the righteous indignation reply?

Someone's being unfair in doling out his lectures...

[Spider Jerusalem]

27. I noticed that.

Maybe he couldn't be bothered to read the rest of the thread? :shrug:

[dr.strangelove]

38. Well, you could stretch those fingers and read my other replies

and even comment if you would like. I replied to the first person who proposed this postion. If you want to jump in, feel free. But I am not going to start two sub-threads on this. You are welcome to reply to my posts if you disagree with me.

[Jokerman]

5. Obedience to authority.

You do what the coach says, or you don't play. You respect the authority of the referees, or you don't play.

They are trained not to question authority which makes them good little fascists.

I'm not saying that all athletes are fascists, but they ARE trained to follow orders without question.

[dr.strangelove]

15. Interesting thought - but it is far from true at the professional level

On the college level, athletes are as you say, trained to follow orders. However on the professional level (again limiting our discussion to the star athletes and not including the bottom roster league minimum salary players) they are far more independent, and often influence which coaches are retained and have a great impact on the design of the team and the strategy of the games they play. Athletes of the type we are referring do not follow orders, they are active participants in game planning. Few coaches are successful at the profession level who maintain an authoritative approach.

[Greyhound]

45. Jokerman was right, while the professional level athlete is

elevated to a position of pseudo-authority, it is only after a lifetime of submission to, often capricious, authority. The professional amerikan athlete is a unique product, trained from grade-school (usually) certainly by the time they reach high school, that if they do as they are told all problem will be taken care of. Can't read? You'll have a tutor and a cooperative teacher as long as you keep scoring touchdowns. Family can't afford to give you a car? Don't worry, as long as you keep hitting that jump shot this alumni will let you drive this new Beemer. Knocked up that girl? Win this tournament and you'll never hear about it again.
And we wonder why they *suddenly* go off and kill their ex-wife, or shoot the chauffeur, or become re:puke:.
OTOH hand all of the arts are de-valued in this 'culture'. The artist/musician is looked on as a shiftless dreamer with no real value to society. The arts are commercially controlled by tiny communities of talentless corporate hacks that dictate what is desirable or popular to us. They pluck these dime-a-dozen "creative-types" from obscurity, steal their work, and usually leave them broke and broken after using them up. The few that do "make it" end up becoming the thieves living off the work of the new ones coming up. The artist is the antithesis of the athlete.

[dr.strangelove]

I think your numbers are wrong

at least with the number of athletes you think fall in the category you describe. The number of athletes that get this treatment is far exaterated. In fact getting this treatment at the college level is considered a status symbol even at the big sports school. There are certainly a handful of athletes (5-10) at each of the 60 or so BIG sports schools who get this level of treatment, but that would place it at under 300-500 nationwide. Of course atheltes on the whole are treated better than any other group in schools, other than grant producing graduate students. Athletes who get that level of treatment are not typical of the college athlete. though you are correct, the athletes of this level ar ethe ones that turn pro, though even many pro athletes never get this treatment, only the superstars whose name even non-sports fans know.

[Greyhound]

51. I'm writing from my personal experience only.

I was one of those ignored scholarship students that got to tutor these arrogant, ignoramus. I've seen it countless times, grade school level work that gets a passing grade because he can throw a ball through a hoop or run the 40 in 4 seconds, when they even bothered to turn in any work at all.

[dr.strangelove]

54. True

I too was a tutor of athletes. I went to a large Pac-10 sports school and paid for some of my law school through tutoring math and science to football players and basketball players. I did the same in college. There was an elementary statistics/algebra/geometry class that the athletes took for their math core requirement and a 4 credit intro to bio class that they needed for science to graduate. These classes were set up not to interfere with practices and required very little work. At the same time, while I was there I met dozens of athletes who could have tutored me in literature or history. This one guy was a rap artist who may be the most gifted poet I ever met. Several were into politics and I always debated them on Clinton era issues. There was a group of guys who read history, and we would talk about colonial history frequently. as for the number of athletes who get that "free car" and envelope of money, it is not as widespread as you would think. The guys who were drafted to play in the NFL (I don't think any of the basketball guys got drafted to the NBA while I was there) certainly got that treatment, but there are only 20 or so "sports scholarship" guys on a team at one time. There are loads of "citizenship grants" as they were called in my school for recruited non scholarship players and walk ons, but these guys did not get the cars and cash. They did get play stations and leather jackets and got to go to great free parties, but not loads of cash and cars. Only the top few guys in each school get that treatment.

[Wapsie B]

6. Well if there are more repukes in athletics than the arts

one reason could be with the leaders athletes have to work with. There are more than a few college or pro football coaches who are staunch conservatives. Boosters of college programs are from banks, insurance companies, execs from korporate amerika, hardly bastions of Liberal thought.

[hippiechick]

8. Athletes = Neanderthal instincts

Compete.
Hunt.
Attack.
Fight.
Kill.
WIN.


And team-sports do tend to instill that 'group think' mentality that's so vital to the GOP.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

21. Years ago, when my brothers were in high school and the Vietnam War

was raging, my mom and a group of other mothers were talking about how they thought high school sports, especially football, were so heavily emphasized in America because their deep-down aim was to get boys into the militaristic mindset--as hippiechick so succinctly put it, "Compete, Hunt, Attack, Fight, Kill, WIN."

My school had compulsory pep rallies every Friday. I was pretty knowledgeable about history at the time, and I refused to participate in the cheers, because they felt like the Nuremberg Rallies.

There's a definite fascist undercurrent in sports fanaticism.

Think about it. We're told that sports build character by teaching teamwork and self-discipline, giving students a sense of accomplishment, allowing them to make life-long friendships, and keeping them busy and out of trouble.

We're told that kids absolutely MUST have sports. What's always one of the first suggestions for preventing juvenile crime? Sports programs! On the college level, who is most likely to have his bad grades expunged or to get special tutoring if he's as thick as a brick? The sports "hero"! (Just the use of the word "hero" is telling here. In my mind, a person who rescues a child from a burning building or does the right thing in the face of overwhelming opposition is a hero. A person who scores points is not a "hero.")

The performing arts provide many of the same benefits as sports: successful participation requires teamwork and self-discipline, gives students a sense of accomplishment, allows them to make life-long friendships, and keeps them busy and out of trouble. Yet when a school district has budget problems, the arts are the first program to be cut and few people complain, while cutting sports is a last resort, one which parents will protest vehemently. They will hold bake sales and car washes just so a few dozen students can stage quasi-wars against other schools. Too bad for the orchestra and the junior class play. Those things are just "frills." Football, basketball, and baseball are BASIC, in that worldview. Football, basketball, and baseball are the essence of what it means to be an American.

I'm not denying the need for physical fitness among young people, but frankly, the unfit kids would get more out of walking a mile each way to school than they currently do out of standing in the outfield while the natural athletes hit homeruns.

I think my mom and her friends were right. The cultivation of sports fanaticism in the American public is one of the underpinnings of our increasingly militaristic and fascist society. Must...obey...coach. Must...encourage...aggressive...behavior. Must...squash...opponent. Must...cheer...for...our...side...just...because. Must...think...Super Bowl...to...be...event...of...cosmic...significance. No...time...for...boring...politics. Must...kick...ass,...doesn't...matter...whose.

It all fits together.

[ghostsofgiants]

10. I think it's the value put on hierarchy

In sports, the point is to strive to be at the very top of that hierarchy. to prove that you are better than everyone else. Hierarchy is integral to conservative philosophy.

[LynneSin]

11. But don't actors and musician do the same thing

I mean don't they strive to win the top award for acting/music?

[ghostsofgiants]

14. Not really...

I'd argue that winning awards is just a bonus for artists. Expression is the primary focus of any art, whether it's acting or playing music or whatever. The primary focus of sports, however, is to be the best.

[LynneSin]

33. Yes but there is a big difference in salary if you're Julia Roberts vs...

being some starlet of the month.

[ghostsofgiants]

37. I'm not sure what your point is.

[StaggerLee]

16. Didn't George C. Scott reject an Oscar for his role of Patton?

I believe he did it because he didn't feel it was appropriate to compete in his art form. I could be wrong though.

I'm too lazy to google right now.

[ghostsofgiants]

18. You're right...

"Having declined an Academy Award nomination for his appearance in The Hustler, Scott returned his Oscar for Patton, stating that he didn't feel himself to be in competition with other actors."

[SoCalDem]

19. Sacheen Littlefeather collected it for him.....(edit.. that was Brando's O

:)

[Spider Jerusalem]

22. Anyone who's an actor or musician because they want awards...

needs to find another line of work. TRYING to get an award is, essentially, prostituting one's muse, and those who do so are little better than whores, and deserve no consideration as artists. The only true competition, for an actor or musician, is with himself; those we recognise as 'great' being those whose work transcends mere acting or songwriting, and gives some insight into the human condition that resonates, some glimpse of emotion that we've felt but couldn't articulate, or such sheer virtuosity that we are transported from our mundane world into one we could not imagine.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

29. If you know any really good musicians or actors, you know that

they would do what they do even if it meant living in their mother's basement. Their art just bubbles up out of them. They can't NOT do what they do. I've seen it in the many musicians I've known over the years, as well as in my niece the aspiring dancer or in a friend's daughter, who badgered her parents to let her appear in community theater beginning at age nine and has acted in local plays all through high school and college.

Sure, being a superstar is nice, but for most, the goal is simply to make a reasonable living with their art, being able to be a full-time musician or actor without having to wait on tables.

This brings us to another difference between artists and athletes. In most school districts, the talented athletes are treated as young gods and goddesses, and everyone smooths their way their system and gives them a lot of positive strokes.

Not so with the aspiring artists. They're prime targets for the bullies in school, they see their supporting academic programs cut, and adults tell them that they need to sign up for a soccer team so that they'll be "well-rounded." (Who ever told a football player that he needed to take piano lessons in order to be "well-rounded"?)

Come to think of it, that may be why artists are more liberal than athletes. They know what it's like to be marginalized.

[RandomKoolzip]

43. In hiphop, the dynamic is similar to that of sports.

The rapper is always striving for dominance over his peers; most rappers have boundless reservoirs of braggadoccio. They (mainstream rappers, anyways...in the underground, there's true artists and aesthetes) have basically invented a genre where the locus of intellect is in how to say "I'm #1!" in as many different ways as possible.

In the played music realm, that of the small band format, the dynamic is completely different. The rock band is a self-contained entity which strives not to compete internally (unless there's some serious egomaniac in there) but to produce something greater than the sum of its parts. It takes a great deal of humility, for instance, for the average drummer to submit his instinct to play tom rolls and difficult fills constantly to the will of the guitarist's rythym or the structure of the songwriter's idea. The fact that a drummer must tame those insticts (the guitarist and bassist as well) speaks volumes toward the idea of a rock band as ideal creative entity and as to why most musicians are liberal: they need to work as a unit to produce something good, something which doesn't "do battle" with other somethings, but stands on its own as a whole work of art. Thus in rock, you see package tours more than "battles of the bands," multi-band festivals and supergroups more than head-cutting contests. The concious musician may be critical of other bands in converstaion (or even wish them dead,) but he does not use his band as a weapon.

Football teams, etc. work with a similar dynamic, but channel each player's energy into a Manichean struggle with little room for comprimise or humility (witness the post-touchdown "dance" mnay players engage in). In reality, most sports teams are closer instructure to the rock band, but their overall onus is on destruction of other similar units, hence the propensity to conservatism, which is all about "survival of the fittest," just like in hiphop.

[LynneSin]

58. And outside of 50 Cents, how many rappers like Bush

I'm guessing zero would be too high of a number!

[RandomKoolzip]

59. That has less than nothing to with what I'm saying.

I'm saying the group vs. individual dynamic is similar. Most rappers are apolitical in lyrical content. The ones who are political are almost uniformly liberal, because they're from the underclass. However, except to note that the rapper's constant struggle to stay "on top," the King of the Hill (as an individual, not as a mobile political class), lyrical content is not the crux of my ARGUMENT.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

70. Bitches ain't shit but hoes and trix!

And you know it!

[asthmaticeog]

65. It's 50 Cent, not Cents. Just sayin'. nt

[cassandra uprising]

71. I thought it was Kyane wizzest?

:shrug:

[asthmaticeog]

76. Are you thinking Kyane Reeves?

Wyld Stallyns smokes Zeppelin's ass! Party on, Cassandra!

[JVS]

31. one would think that academics would be rife with conservatives then

[long_green]

20. People who go in for the arts tend to be more liberal

than those who don't. The people who run the businesses of the arts tend to be more liberal than those who run the business of sport. A sports audience is generally more conservative than an audience at a concert. If a pro athlete is a liberal, he is often surrounded by conservatives; therefore he is far less likely to be candid about his politics. A person who is apolitical on entering the big leagues (or earlier) has a good chance of being influenced by the conservative environment around him. Does the same thing apply (in the opposite direction) to the arts?
I'm a big football fan who lives in the south and I have a lot of trouble with the environment at games. I hope things change in this country before I have to walk away from something I love, but I'm not hopeful.

[dr.strangelove]

46. Very True

Also, I see a value to "the arts" and have used my votes to express support for the arts. Public office candidates who express a willingness to devote public funds the arts (such as increasing school funds for art education, support artists communities and public theaters with funds and public comments assisting these groups and devote public financial support via tax breaks for investors in the arts) are usually liberal. It is natural that people in these areas would move to the groups that value their contribution to society and seek to reward that contribution with funding. Sports and sports investors do not enjoy this support from liberal groups. It is easy to understand why they would move to the right, where there is support for there business and tax needs.

[kmla]

24. Wow. Alot of animosity coming out in these posts...

Athletes are people. Some are Democrats. Some are Republican.

Do we have any statistics on this, or are we just assuming that a bunch of stereotypes are true?

Like..... Jocks are dumb. Easily led. Especially the professionals. They're all Republicans. They aren't worthy of the money.

Athletes have a job. Just like most of us. And just like most of us, the ones who study the game, and are smart, will last longer at it. Just as a clueless salesman who doesn't know his target customer will not prosper, the 'dumb jock' who doesn't know the playbook (or the tendencies of the other players) will not last long at their job. (i.e. Peyton Manning vs. Ryan Leaf).

And I doubt anyone who posted on this thread would turn down the money if offered the same amount provided they were lucky enough and worked hard enough to be offered that much....

Just my $.02.

[redqueen]

28. Dumb sales people and all other kinds of people succeed all the time.

Dunno where you got that they couldn't, cause they do. A lot.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

32. Especially if they play golf with the right people

:evilgrin:

Oh, and understanding the rule book of a sport is not exactly rocket science, you know.

[redqueen]

36. Watch it now... less edcucated people are not less intelligent!

:eyes:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

39. I was replying to the other poster's contention about the

great "intelligence" required for being a professional athlete.

I know that there's not a direct correlation between education and intelligence. You wouldn't believe some of the stupid Ph.D's there are running around in academia.

[dr.strangelove]

41. I think there was sarcasm in the post you are replying to

I think the position in that post is that less-educated people are in fact less intelligent. I think I am correct in this, but if I am reading that post incorrectly, please let me know.

[mantrid]

64. Stating the truth makes for poor irony.

[fishwax]

69. bush is more educated than many people I know

with his prep school ed, an ivy league degree--even a graduate degree--but I'd consider most of them more intelligent than him.

[dr.strangelove]

82. Exactly

My electrician's apprentice brother-in-law did not make it out of high school. He is way more intelligent than bush is.

[ET Awful]

26. Two words.

Head Trauma.

:evilgrin:

[JVS]

30. I think it has to do with money and how they are concerned about it

here goes

I believe that the reason that Athletes tend to be Republican is that it is very often in their best interests. Consider the career path of an athelete. Earning ability peeks at a fairly young age and injury could end it at any time. Even without injury the number of years that, say a running back can work is quite small. Thus it should come as no surprise that a guy whose career is going to be 10 years maximum has no desire to see the top income tax rate go from the mid 30% range up to 90%. This guy needs to pile up a massive amount of money in order to be able to retire in comfort for quite a long period ahead. If the career ends in injury the situation is even worse. Thus the cardinal rule of sports is get as much as you can as fast as you can so you don't end up old and broke like Joe Louis.

An actor on the other hand can count on a career lasting decades unless they make a bunch of real bombs. If you're getting millions of dollars for each movie at the age of 29 then chances are that you will continue to do so as long as you are mentally capable of remembering lines. Even as you get older your experience and contacts pay off. The fundamental difference is that the more you work the better off you are in acting while in sports the more you work the more worn out you become. Thus the actor has no need to hold onto such a large amount of money and doesn't consider a higher tax rate much of a burden. Also an actor might remember the time before the "big break" during which he worked a number of shitty day jobs, while the athlete of promise often has no experience outside of the feeding system for the pros (minor leagues, college programs, etc.) Thus real world experience has been forfeited to develop expertise.

[dr.strangelove]

42. I think you nailed it

Well put. Athletes also depend largely on long term investment income, and are huge supporters of the right's position that paying tax on income and then paying tax on the investment income that income produces later is unfair. While I disagree with that position, I certainly understand the logic behind it. I just think that the need for the tax dollars from people who can afford the taxes more than other outweighs the unfair nature of paying tax two times. The money is taxed twice, but so what, many of us pay tax on the same money multiple times. Income tax, sales tax, property tax. My issue is how the tax money is used, not how many times I am taxed. Which I think is one of the key differences between fiscal conservatives and fiscal liberals.

[Bill McBlueState]

34. I've got some ideas about this but...

I'm worried we're all dealing in stereotypes. Franco Harris was the running back for the greatest NFL team of all time, and look at his campaign contributions.

How could we establish factually that actors and musicians are more liberal on the whole than athletes?

[long_green]

49. thank you for that link

It made me smile to think of Franco playing for my team.

[Telly Savalas]

72. So you're saying this thread should be moved to

the DU Make An Unsupported Claim and Speculate on Why It's True Group?

[Bill McBlueState]

75. we should totally have that group!

Want to start a petition? :evilgrin:

[Sanity Claws]

55. Actors must have a sense of empathy

in order to get into roles. They have to be able to feel and live as though they were in another person's shoes. I think that makes them more likely to be progressive and understand different perspectives and challenges that individuals face. Yes, they are some actors that are always themselves in every role; Tom Cruise is one and guess what? He's a Repug.
Athletes have a great deal of physical prowess by definition. They are used to getting what they want through exertion of physical strength or prowess. They feel everyone else should do the same and are totally unable to understand people who cannot do the same.
I think the longer people are in an occupation, the more they become their occupation. Their thought patterns become more entrenched.
My two cents.

[leftofthedial]

57. because becoming an actor or musician is a struggle

jocks are pampered from grade school on. they are bred to be elitist, classist, narcissistic jerks, even if they never succeed at a high professional level. Nothing about what they do connects them with the rest of society. Quite the contrary, most athletes exist in a bubble.

Actors and musicians are not valued in our society until and unless they achieve extreme success. To be good at what they do also requires that they maintain a connection to real people and the real, human issues they confront.

[KamaAina]

60. There are more Dem athletes out there than you might think

a thread in the Sports forum discusses this in detail.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=215&topic_id=31199&mesg_id=31199

They seem to be most prominent in the NBA, but you will no doubt be pleased to learn that many of the Eagles players are known to be good Dems. (post #15)

You don't suppose that sports media, which tilts so far right it practically throws the Earth off its axis, might have contributed to this perception by prominently featuring the right-wing jocks (cf. the unpaid campaign commercial for Swannie the other night) and giving short shrift to the liberals, and especially the outspoken war opponents like Stevie Nash, now do you? Nawwww. Can't be! :sarcasm:

edit: deatil? Isn't that what Rush uses when he can't get Oxy?

[XemaSab]

61. Many athletes are African American.

Most African Americans are democrats. Also, many African Americans grew up poor in a system that wasn't designed to help them succeed.

Most actors are white. Many white people are republicans, and many actors grew up middle class or wealthy in an environment that nurtured their skills.

Where is your evidence supporting the claim that athletes tend to be more conservative than actors? :shrug:

[DinahMoeHum]

63. Most athletes are into conformity - a Republican trait. . .

Most actors and musicians are into deviating from conformity - that is how art (and progress are made)

This is simply the nature of their professions.

:shrug:

[mvd]

67. There's a certain degree of jingoism involved with..

athletes. Like you always have to "play for the team." Conformity is another reason more Repukes are athletes. Also, when they concentrated on their physical skills, some athletes neglected the intellectual ream and didn't spend time on politics. Actors and actresses don't have any of these conditions. I sure am glad that so many actresses are liberals, since I do get celeb crushes. Alison Lohman, a Kerry supporter (wore a Kerry shirt in a picture) is my new list entry.

[Oeditpus Rex]

68. It's more the society of sport than the individual athletes

Former Yankee (among other clubs) pitcher Jim Bouton addressed this in his first book, "Ball Four." He wrote that baseball players are discouraged from talking about politics unless they had conservative views. If a ballplayer thought the U.S. should get out of Vietnam, Bouton said, he was told to keep it to himself because he was "wrong."

The book was written during the 1969 season, but I haven't noticed many athletes espousing liberal views since. As KamaAina noted, the sports media doesn't foster them, and indeed often mocks liberal athletes while lauding conservatives.

I can't speak personally to other sports, but I've been around a lot of baseball players (minor leaguers, but quite a few who went on to major-league careers, and at least one "star" among them — Omar Vizquel). It's been my observation that liberal views in the sport are few and far between. That doesn't mean they don't exist, but merely that they aren't expressed.

I'll leave the "why" to speculation.



Edit: Misspelled "KamaAina." I hate when I do that. :grr:

[Rabrrrrrr]

73. Because sports and repuking are win/lose, black/white - the arts are

more intellecutal, nebulous, about seeing where you can go with an idea or concept without any need to declare a winner and a loser. Liberalism and the arts live in the ambiguity and the nebulousness, and they are about nuance and creative interplay and exploration.

Sports and repuking are simply about win/lose.

The democrats/liberals/arts people want everyone to win by playing together, and colming together in a way that is greater than the sum of the parts.

Repukes and sports people will play together with their team, but couldn't give a fuck about anyone not on their team; raising everyone up together is anathema to them, because that means no one wins.


And obviously, I'm speaking in the basest of generalities on both sides - there are repuke arts people (though their art tends to suck) and there are liberal and good sports people, and even some people who do both arts and sports who are liberal. I'm talking only as a general rule.

[fishwax]

74. For one thing, athletes are more susceptible to employer discipline and

public outcry, particularly the former. Historically, active athletes who have taken liberal stands have been severely castigated in the arena of public opinion. I'm thinking of Tommie Smith and John Carlos at the 68 Olympics, Muhammad Ali, and a handful of college and pro basketball players who have, in recent years, declined to stand for the national anthem or wear a flag emblem on their jersey.

In a certain sense, I think the public is less willing to accept a strong political stance from athletes because they see as athletes as "representing" them, their cities, their schools, and/or their countries. That's a different relationship than people generally have with entertainers. (Incidentally, I thnk this also works to keep conservative athletes under wraps, too. Thinking back to the John Rocker situation, I knew several people who didn't necessarily think he was WRONG, just that it was wrong to say it. He should have kept his opinion to himself, not just b/c of the bad publicity, but b/c sports and politics "don't mix" in the public mind somehow. I'm seeing similar reactions to the current Paterno situation.)

That said, I know that many of the former athletes turned politicians have been GOPers, but there are a lot of good Dem/liberal athletes out there. :)

[jakefrep]

77. George Carlin described it best...

..."The football team is the right wing's last line of defense on college campuses".

[Burma Jones]

79. I'm not so sure you're right

I figure most people, and that includes athletes and artists at the apex of their professions, are neither real strong Lefties or Right Wingers.

A few of them have strong convictions and end up active. I may suggest that the Republican Party, having embraced hack actors Reagan, Sonny Bono, Fred Grandy and Ah-nold Schwarzenegger as well as athletes like JC Watts, is seen as easier to work with for those seeking office based solely on their celebrity status. The Democratic Party prefers to let its Celebrities play supporting roles.....

Or in short, the Republicans are looking for spokesmodels and the Democrats are looking for people that give a shit.

[kwolf68]

84. Well

I have the unique opportunity of having played both sports and music.

Here is the rub. I loved sports and competing. I loved baseball, but I wasn’t part of the “jock crowd”. I was harassed when I went out for baseball, not bad, but picked on. I wasn’t “the cool kid”, but I could play my ass off in baseball and decided to go for it.

I played my 9th and 10th grade years. I was even put on the varsity during my 10th grade year. I played a mean infield, but somewhere along the line I quit having fun. I never knew why or where this came from, but it was clear the “fraternity” of athletes wanted nothing to do with me. I never really tried to “be one of them”, I just wanted to play ball.

Enter music. I learned how to play guitar and drums and all of a sudden all these different people with different backgrounds, and different interests started popping up in my life. Guys I had walked past in the high school halls were now asking me about my drum set and what I played. It was never a competitive endeavor.

I played in mostly garage bands in my day and of the thousands of hours my bands and I played I never once remember anything bad happening. It was 100% fun. Only one time did our bass player and guitar player get into a argument about a song. The guitar player whacked him, the bass player left, and 30 minutes later we were jamming again.

Musicians are marginalized. LydiaLeftcost nailed it on the head. Jocks are some of the biggest pricks on high school campuses. I would like my boy and girl to play sports should they decide, but they will be taught (by me) on how to approach competition. I also see the musical abilities in both of them. My 1-year old is already trying to play drums and my little girl of almost 4 loves music and she has uttered these famous words that tear me up, “Turn it up daddy.”

But if they become the artist “freaks” they’ll be marginalized and ostracized and I need to educate them on how to deal with that and be proud of what they are.