The myth of some "nice guys"

[Tallison]

After 32 years of being a single female and a particular experience tonight, I've decided to have it with that nice guy-type who is soooo kind to and sensitive around a woman, figuring that surely her recognition of such will result in the reward of a romantic relationship, until it doesn't, at which point he adjudicates her an ungrateful bitch. Nice. Real insidiously nice.

Makes me <i>almost</i> nostalgic for those types who are at least up front about being assholes.

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

(For what it's worth, I realize that the same manipulative dynamic may occur in reverse direction between genders, but conventional male/female role power differentials in this culture make that scenario <i>way</i> less common.)

Thanks for letting me vent, folks.

[RevCheesehead]

1. You mean like a nice guy who doesn't see you?

Been there, done that.

Now I have cats. They're lower maintenance.

[Tallison]

4. My experiences consistently sour my hope for finding genuine

platonic friendships with straight, single guys. It's like there's always this hope for sex/romance in the back of their mind, and when they find out you don't share it, you're suddenly a fucking bitch and a tease.

Am I jaded? I don't want to be jaded. I'm only 32 and already have 4 cats and only 1 long-term sexless/romanceless male friendship. Otherwise I've learned to just stick with the women for friendship. I think I'm jaded.

:cry:

On edit: Not "always" this hope, but very, very, very and way too often...

[Cruzan]

34. Well, let's think a little about what it is you're looking for

1. You say you're trying to find "genuine platonic friendships with straight, single guys."

2. And then you lament that any "straight, single guy... always has this hope for sex/romance in the back of their mind."

3. "And when they find out you don't share it, you're suddenly a fucking bitch and a tease."

In other words, you want a guy who isn't in a relationship but is attracted to girls ("straight, single"), and so one might reasonably presume is looking for a relationship, to be only attracted to you in a platonic sense. (I'll further presume you have a reasonably decent personality and are attractive since you've been approached by men a number of times before.)

I'm sorry, but what you're looking for doesn't exist. Biology just doesn't work that way. If a human male is looking for a mate and is approached by an attractive and seemingly available female, he will by simple hormonal response pursue a possible romantic relationship. For it is also clear that since you're looking for friendship from a man, you have to be seeking it out by initiating some kind of contact, e.g. smiling, being friendly, talking to, etc. (unless this is all happening online). And since you said "when they find out" I'll take that to mean you're not immediately right at the start saying you're just looking for a platonic relationship. In other words, at least for some short period you're either consciously or unconsciously leading them on. Perhaps because you think there's no other way to get them talking to you or entirely (and maybe more likely) as just your own female hormonal response towards being attractive to males. And if it turns out, contrary to all signs you've previously given, you say romance is not what you're interested in, the guy will obviously feel not just disappointed but at least partially misled if not outright deceived.

A couple of questions I have is if you are truly and solely after male platonic friendship, (1) Why is it important that the guy be straight? If you wish to have a nonsexual relationship with a guy, why is his sexuality so important to you as to be a requirement for the relationship? And (2) Why must he be single? Again, if the friendship is strictly platonic and you make a fair effort not to make his significant other feel cause for concern or unease about your interest in him, why should it matter that he has a girlfriend or wife?

[RedCappedBandit]

50. Excellent Post nt

[dysfunctional press]

55. SPOT ON!!!

nothing like cutting straight thru the bullshit!

i hope the OP has the strength of character to answer you.

[txwhitedove]

56. She was truly grieved over a man she thought was a friend...

so that is NOT bullshit.  Some women, like myself, enjoy
conversation with a man more than a woman.  Unfortunately, it
sounds like the conversation turned to him wanting more
intimacy, but when she declined he got ugly about it.  Most
women who would like male friends do not just want them to
move things.  

[dysfunctional press]

57. bullshit...

Unfortunately, it sounds like the conversation turned to him wanting more intimacy...

no...it sounds like she wasn't honest with him about her desires/intentions from the get-go. it doesn't sound to me like she's describing a single conversation with the guy- but the begining, over time, of what she saw as a friendship, and he(because she wasn't honest from the start) saw as a courtship.

but i'm probably mistaken, because everyone knows that women are NEVER at fault in a relationship.. :eyes:

[txwhitedove]

58. Okay, B-S- is the word of the day...

There are definitely many faulty women out there, Barbie
posers and users.  Good woman or bad, just because a woman
talks with a man, is friends with or even dates a man, that is
NO justification for him to be surly or derogatory if the
woman turns down ANY further advances.  The woman should, of
course, know how to decline gracefully.

[dysfunctional press]

60. you aren't privy to any of the actual details...

having read only snippets of one side of the story, so your proclamation of "NO justification" rings extremely hollow...for instance- if a woman is a cock-teasing bitch(and i'm NOT saying that anyone was)- depending on the circumstances, surly and derogatory can be a perfectly justified and acceptable response...you have to give respect to get it.

[txwhitedove]

61. Was it YOU? I just read her posting about being upset...

when that so-called Nice Guy turned ugly on her.  If a woman
must know how to turn a man down gracefully, then he in turn
must acknowledge gracefully.  It's called maturity.

[dysfunctional press]

63. and you KNOW that this particular man was turned down "gracefully", how?

perhaps his response was justified and acceptable.

[txwhitedove]

62. Delete Dup

[Tallison]

85. As I only post things in pursuit of constructive dialect

I answer everyone. Please see below. Enjoy your :popcorn:

[Tallison]

84. The point is not that I'm looking for straight male friends...

the point is that when I happen to meet one who is appealing as a friend but not as a lover, platonic friendship is usually elusive, I'm theorizing for the exact reason you cite. It's disillusioning is all.

[Radical Activist]

86. It sounds like

you want a straight man who will essentially fill most of the roles of a boyfriend, but with the constant reminder that he isn't your boyfriend because you aren't attracted enough to him to have sex with him. hmm...yeah, I can see how someone could feel pretty insulted by that, maybe more insulted than what can be said in a few ugly words.

[Tallison]

93. So you think it's normal for a guy not to be able to psychologically

handle a woman not wanting to have sex with him? And the only difference between a friend and a boyfriend is the sex? I always figured there was a bigger psychological boundary between the two, and that healthy people can handle and respect that boundary.

[Radical Activist]

95. Some people

create walls that categorize friends as people who could never be boyfriends, while others do not. And others have boy/girlfriends that they never become psychologically attached to beyond sex. Maybe his personal boundary between friend and girl/boyfriend is smaller than yours.

I think its normal for someone to feel hurt and insulted when they are essentially told "We're compatible enough to get along and function like a couple but I don't find you sexy/desirable/manly enough to have sex with you." Yes, that will injure a mans self esteem and some people are going to react badly to that.

It sounds like the guy probably needs to gain more confidence. He might not have taken it so badly, and he may have made his intentions known sooner.

[JVS]

98. The "creation of walls" of which you speak forms the core of Ladder Theory

Check it out

http://tinyurl.com/7l1m

Click "construction of the ladder" on the left hand side

[Radical Activist]

99. This is hilarious

and brutally honest.

[anarch]

163. haha

This "answers to the critics" section rules:

Criticism:I have lots of male friends who would never think of me that way blah blah blah.
Answer:Your friend doesn't find you attractive, or he's currently doing better, or he's gay or you're wrong.

Criticism:That's not true
Answer:Yes it is.

[Cruzan]

100. Well then you're changing the meaning of what

you wrote here where you said "my hope for finding genuine platonic friendships with straight, single guys" sounds very much like an active search on your part rather than a chance "happen to meet." But whichever it is, how clear are you upfront that your interest is only platonic? Because the degree, extent, and length to which the guy feels otherwise led on that your interest goes beyond this is really the crucial matter. Maybe in your mind you're simply thinking 'Well I want to keep my options open until I decide how I feel about him.' But how long you continue that is strongly related to, if you turn him down, how much he will end up feeling misled or even deceived.

[gordontron]

97. nicely done

excellent post

[hunter]

181. What the hell is "leading them on," Cruzan?????"

That's where your BULLSHIT starts and ends.

I've always had about an equal mix of male and female friends. Of course I've been sexually attracted to female friends, and I'm certain they've been sexually attracted to me. I have male friends who have been sexually attracted to me, and intellectually at least, I can see how I might go that way. Yeah, I'd flirt with Johnny Depp. I can imagine myself thinking, "Wow! That guy is hot..."

But what next?

Since I am very happily married, it's an easy answer. I will be faithful to my wife. Any friend who wants to have sex with me is just plain old out of luck. I'm taken, and taken hard. My life is very much less complicated now then when I was single.

But even before I met my wife I had friends who were secure in our relationships as friends. There was never any danger in these relationships that one of us would demand sexually more of the other than we'd be willing to give.

When I was single there were maybe two times female friends approached me sexually for fear of losing our friendship, and not because they genuinely desired a sexual relationship. By some good fortune I recognized what was happening and kept the friendship -- kiss, touch, and heart-to-heart. Quite honestly, I was no prize as a young man, except as a friend. I had mental health issues that would send any rational person running. And once, when it happened the other way around, and I thought the only way I could keep a friend was by having sex with her, it was my very good fortune she recognized what was happening.

The only relationship I ever had that crashed and burned was with a woman who didn't want to admit to herself or her family she was a lesbian. Later she married a female friend of mine, and it was happily ever after for them.

So just what does this "leading them on" mean?

I have female friends I've seen naked. They've seen me naked. Is casual nudity among friends a demand for sex? No.

You draw the lines where you draw the lines in a friendship, in a mutually agreeable place, and then you never come to that place where "the guy will obviously feel not just disappointed but at least partially misled if not outright deceived."

If the guy feels like that it's his own damn fault. When your partner says "no" in a relationship that's where you stop.

[Random_Australian]

36. Well, something you are doing is telling them you are interested is the

most likely explanation. Guys do, however, always always have that at the back of our heads, unless certain circumstances are met.

[Tallison]

87. I'm examining my part in this and similar past scenarios

to see if you're right about the, "Is it something I'm doing"? It's possible. In the meantime, I suppose no signals (i.e., walking the other way) are better than potentially ambiguous ones?

:shrug:

[hfojvt]

65. that seems like an odd thing to hope for

Doesn't it work with married guys?
I think I have had platonic friendships with other people's wives.

But I have to give you this:

:nopity:


Boo hoo hoo. I cannot find platonic female friends. Boo hoo hoo. They all just wanna have sex with me. Guys, can you relate? It is awful. (Actually my brother does have that problem, which is only a "problem" because he is married.) It does not sound very heartbreaking or lonely to me.

Sorry, but those are just the facts of life. No guy, no matter how nice he is, unless he is getting regular sex somewhere, just wants to be platonic friends with a woman. I don't think that proves that they are not really nice guys.

[Tallison]

88. "No guy, no matter how nice he is, unless he is getting regular sex...

...somewhere, just wants to be platonic friends with a woman."

Exactly what I fear. Surely this can't be true. Surely there must be guys out there for whom niceness isn't simply a subtle form of manipulation toward the sack.

[JVS]

89. Believe it already!

Why do you see some kind of dichotomy between friendship and "the sack"? If a guy finds a woman attractive he will want to take the relationship to the "sack", end of story. Unless taking this measure would destroy the sacking relationship he's already involved in, even then remember that he's still thinking about it.

[Tallison]

91. Of course friendship and sex can coexist

In fact, the best sex occurs between lovers who are also friends. My concern is whether friendship and sex must NECESSARILY coexist for guys.

[JVS]

92. They don't coexist they are one entity.

Friendship with those one finds sexually attractive is inextricably bound to pursuing sex. Unless one is otherwise commited, and even then lapses have been known to happen.

As I said before:
If a guy finds a woman attractive he will want to take the relationship to the "sack", end of story.

[sendero]

131. Trust me...

.. it must. How old are you? Your understanding of men is truly lacking, truly.

I always make a big point of trying to understand where women are coming from, and it took me a long time I have to admit. But your attitude suggests that you really REALLY don't understand men at all.

You need to do what I did, stop believing the bullshit myths society creates about the genders and learn how they really are. While I personally believe that there are a lot more bullshit myths about women than their are about men, how would I know, I've only seen it from one side.

Society generally accepts that men are pretty much in it for the sex, what about that is so hard to get?

[hfojvt]

129. who is the cynic here?

Why should it be manipulation, unless the person is a manipulator? Isn't there a huge difference between a) someone who is pretending to be nice in order to get you in the sack b) someone who is nice to you but hopes that the friendship can be more? Do you see everyone as a pretender simply because they do not react well to being rejected?

I think that for most people who are not after serial casual sex, finding a spouse (and permanent sex partner) are simply way higher priorities than finding platonic friends. I am not sure why you have your priorities reversed. Truly, it seems inexplicably bizarre to me and having too many people who want to be your lover instead of your friend seems like so far away from a problem that it is not even funny. Certainly not to people, like, for example, ME, who has neither friends or lovers. It is like somebody starting a thread saying "woe is me I love my job too much and it pays too well" or "my boss is too understanding and decent" or "I have too much money and free time".

[Tallison]

160. Life ain't sweet at all right now

which is why this experience was such a blow. Someone I thought was a friend came to my aid at a time of serious crisis. When it became increasingly obvious that there was an agenda behind his help and I asked him to cool it with the forms of help that made me feel uncomfortable (i.e., buying me a bathrobe/nightgown in case I wanted to spend the night at his house, always sitting too close, always touching and touching and touching me when I looked the least bit upset), he withdrew all help and 'took back' all the nice appropriate ways in which he had been there.

That kind of shit can seriously hurt people when they're already down.

[hfojvt]

167. that does not sound very nice or appropriate

Although I cannot, off the top of my head, think of a crisis where some loving would not help. Alot.
But that's just me, maybe because celibacy is on my back like a 5,000 ton monkey.
One time I was biking around and I saw a woman I knew who had made it clear that she would not go out with me (before I had even asked). She was outside on a hot day trying to start a lawnmower. She looked pretty peeved, hot and bothered, blowing her hair out of her face. I did not stop to help. Hey, I'm a nice guy. I'm not Santa Claus.
I am sorta always down. Why? Because nobody loves me. Nobody ever has (okay, once, some really annoying goofy woman claimed to, but had an uncopacetic way of showing it), and apparently nobody ever will. Being rejected seriously hurts too. It sure don't feel good.

[JVS]

168. Kudos on the not helping with the lawnmower

[WCGreen]

77. Guys are wired to want sex.....It is the mature one's...

who finally realize that not every woman has to be conquered....

[Radical Activist]

80. lol

Yeah sure, sex is wierd. Funny.

[Radical Activist]

81. dupe

[Tallison]

90. Exactly...

...and one possible moral to this experience is that such maturity is rare. Manifestations of women's immaturity (perhaps as prevalent) are of very different form.

[sendero]

130. All I can say is..

.. duh? I'm not trying to be flip or rude, but if you are looking for a platonic friend, find a gay guy. The rest of us are not capable of it.

[Tallison]

142. "Rest of us are not capable of it"...

Wow, that's disillusioning. While I hope you're really only speaking of yourself, to be able to say as much, if in fact that's the case, is huge. I wish this guy who burned me had sooner.

[RagingInMiami]

187. Post a photo of yourself

Maybe you are just extremely sexy and they can't help themselves

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tallison]

7. It certainly can go both ways

But the "tease" label is pretty exclusively applied to women and is wildly misused and abused as a burst ego poultice by many who amazingly consider themselves "nice."

[IChing]

23. Was Bill Clinton, mister nice guy, treating Hillary wrong again?

Couldn't help, but your avatar, I think said it.
No slam, but I thought it was odd.

the ego is so over estimated as compared to The archetypes in comparative analysis.

[Tallison]

28. Uh, I like Bill and Hillary's politics and don't get your segue...

How does having an avatar of Hillary necessarily constitute a subtext for the original post?

[Heidi]

3. Then he wasn't _really_ a nice guy, was he?

You're better off without him, in that case. :pals:

[Tallison]

9. Thanks.

And you're right that I'm better. I just hate the increasing suspicion I have that genuine platonic friendships between straight men and women are fairly rare. Maybe I'm completely wrong. I hope I am.

[Heidi]

10. I don't think that wanting a sexual relationship makes a person,

male or female, "bad" and more than wanting an genuinely platonic friendship necessarily makes a person "nice." I guess it depends on what you're looking for, and I'd be crystal clear about that up-front, regardless of what I was looking for. Take good care of _you_, Tallison. :hug:

[Tallison]

13. No, not bad at all

Hell, I've wanted sex and romance from a lot of guys, and I'm glad that those guys have wanted sex and romance from me. I guess I just appreciate it when a person is up front about an attraction and about how that may compromise the potential for an objective friendship.

Taking care of me will involve getting to bed soon! :hug:

[regnaD kciN]

101. Well, here's a idea...

I guess I just appreciate it when a person is up front about an attraction and about how that may compromise the potential for an objective friendship.

...what about YOU being "up front" that there's no chance for anything more than platonic friendship? It's a two-way street, you know.

[MissMillie]

42. I think it's more of the ulterior motive thing

It's like "I can be really nice to you as long as I think there's a payoff"

no thanks.

Be yourself. If I like who you really are, the payoff is even higher. If I don't, then at least the relationship failed for the right reasons.

[AngryAmish]

52. And females in platonic relationships don't have ulterior motives?

Someone who is "safe" and can be a companion on a night on the town? Someone to help move heavy objects? Someone who might have cute friends that one can date? Someone that can expand a social network? Gimmie a break.


I think that platonic relationships when both parties are single are near impossible.

[MissMillie]

104. That itsn't what I said, or inferred

The statement I replied to was about someone who was looking for a relationship, and all I said was that I didn't like it when someone played nice just to get something that they want.

I don't think I placed blame on anyone.

But for the record, I've been w/o all those things for a VERY long time now, and I wouldn't misrepresent myself to get any of it.

[bettyellen]

150. i have done every single one of those things for my platonic male best

friend! your post assumes sex is all women have to offer, and men are so much more useful in other ways? so sadly oldschool.
he like every other man that stayed a friend, he hit on me, and was cool when ultimately things didn''t pan out. imagine that!
i prefer men that can cope with the company of a woman, i think it's a real bad sign if they have no women friends.

[NashVegas]

157. They're Possible If One or Both Have "Issues"

That keep them wanting to be around the conveniently unavailable.

Until two years ago, I probably thought a bit like the OP. I have had many wonderful platonic relationships with men, both single and attached. The singles were never single for long, though.

Close, platonic friend: close, but not *too* close, and no one has to take any risks.

I'm glad I finally got past that. The ladder theory, above, is a great theory. However, I have found at least one guy who had a "friendship" ladder, unbeknownst to me, and it sucked.

[Heidi]

54. I don't disagree with you, Millie.

That's why, in my adult life (say, 32 and on) I've always been 100 percent up-front in my relationships. Those who can't bear to hear us speak frankly about what we do and don't want/need in our lives are best forewarned. :thumbsup: (And the same goes for us: we shouldn't assume that every guy wants what we want or, when the guy makes clear what he wants/doesn't want, that we can/should convince him to change his mind.) We have to take care of ourselves. It's our job, and nobody can do that job better than we can do it for ourselves. :pals:

[Tallison]

94. Exactly, exactly, exactly!

Thanks for getting it, Ms. M. :hug:

[billyskank]

5. Way less common my arse

This is just another "people are shits" situation conflated into a "men are shits".

There's loads of guys out there who never get looked at by women. Some of them really are nice guys, some of them just think they are. The reason they never get looked at is because women are just as venal, shallow and self-absorbed as men are. Stop blaming one gender for everything.

:nuke:

[Starbucks Anarchist]

6. ...

:popcorn:

[Tallison]

11. What "everything" blame?

I thought I was pretty specific in my criticism. As your post illustrates, generalization sucks.

[billyskank]

25. Please ignore me - I'm just an idiot who went off half-cocked

[Tallison]

30. No, a real idiot would never admit as much

Nice save! :thumbsup:

[LaurenG]

38. ...

:yoiks:




:hi: :loveya: :hug:

[edwin]

8. Feel sorry for you

But glad you see that it is *some* "nice guys"...

[Tallison]

17. Absolutely, there are the genuine ones out there

and should I ever marry, damn straight he's gotta be one through and through and able to patiently do the platonic thing first.

[Tallison]

152. And I say "able" in a theoretical way

If I think he sincerely possesses such a quality, chances are I'll jump his bones first! :D

[HEyHEY]

12. AS former nice guy - let me say - give nice guys a chance

Or else you're just creating more assholes.

[Tallison]

15. I hear 'ya, but...

I refuse to take responsibility for anyone's propensity for being an asshole except my own. And, yes, I have the propensity sometimes.

I plan on continuing to give guys who seem nice a chance. I just got badly burned by this last one.

[BlueIris]

22. Yeah. We're all responsible for our own behavior and no one "creates"

assholes all by themselves. Ultimately, the asshole chooses to be that way him or herself, typically by not repairing the damage done by another person's abuse and betrayal. Which--well, I don't know why anyone would want to literally become and then remain the kind of person who hurt them enough that they'd want to behave like a bastard. When I realized I was in danger of becoming like my abusers, I freaked, got therapy, and both relieved myself of a lot of serious pain and wanted to treat others with more kindness. And yes, most of us have the power within ourselves to effect similar changes. If more people could recognize the control they do (and should) have over their own emotions, psychology and reactions to painful, unhappy occurrences, there would be fewer assholes. That's something I think about a lot.

[JVS]

40. Do assholes really choose to be assholes, could it not be predestined?

I would have no problem thinking that some people are simply born to be assholes.

[ridgerunner]

51. ever listen to the I-95 song?

I don't think it's actually a Buffett tune, but it's an apt tune to play for that special someone.

"Were you born an asshole?
Or did you work at it your whole life?
Either way it worked out fine
'cause you're an asshole tonight."

http://www.lyricsandsongs.com/song/319473.html

[redqueen]

135. Love this post!

:hi:

[Monk06]

19. I'm not sure whether I am agreeing or disagreeing with you HEyHEY

But my experience has been that women are not attracted
to nice guys. Not only that they don't seem to have very
good asshole radar.

As a female friend said to me once, "You're an asshole.
I like you but you're still an asshole."

She didn't say that because I was misogynist. She said
that because refused to buy into the passive aggressive
myth of the post feminist mythology of "I am woman here
me Roar but accept my privileged tenderness"

Show me a women who's living with a sensitive man and
I'll show you a woman who is bored, resentful and looking
for better sex.

[Tallison]

26. Show me a woman still living with an insensitive man

and I'll show you an even more resentful woman who's having no sex, is open to outside offers, and with therapy will get the hell out. The one with the sensitive guy? A good therapist will help her overcome her perceived boredome.

See? Therapy is good. Even helps some guys get over their insensitivities.

[Monk06]

33. Ok you are on the sensitive side. For the life of me I don't know ....

what that means.

I had an affair with a woman once. It
was the first and last time I cheated.

To cut to the quick I was caught out.
I had to make the choice between someone
I had spent seven years with and who said she
didn't love me and a woman I spent six months
with and said she did.

I went with the security of old habits and broke it off.

I lost them both.

Several years later my long term relationship ended when my
supposed lifetime spouse started up an affair with a lawyer who had
just fathered a child by another woman.

But that was OK, he was depressive, in therapy, the product of a
loveless family and he couldn't deal with commitment. Meaning, he
had a high sensitivity quotient. He was also a prick.

Meanwhile a couple of years later I ended up touching base
with the woman who I should have stayed with. She had just
finished with a relationship with a mutual friend who was a
classic sensitive guy.

We got back together and I thought, "I get to make up for my
previous mistake and end up with the woman I really loved but
didn't know it."

That turned into a disaster as she confided that she wanted
to pursue a relationship with a friend of mine who I introduced
to her after we got back together.

When I asked her why she got back together with me if she wasn't
interested in something serious she said, (and I quote)

"I'm in love with a person I'm not sexually attracted too."

(our sensitive, mutual friend guy).

"I don't want a committed relationship with you or anyone else
but I'm sexually attracted to your best friend."

and here's the clincher,

"I was only interested in you because I liked fucking you."

So much for woman as victim.

[Tallison]

78. Sorry, I'm having trouble keeping up with all the pronouns

in your narrative. As to what I guess is your post's jist, of course men can be victims of insensitive behavior on women's part; however, that wasn't the OP's point. What's interesting among many responses here is men's equation of "sensitive" with "weak" or "fucked up." I've always thought the opposite.

Sounds like neither you nor the "sensitive" guy were right for the latter woman. I would tell her to keep looking for a sensitive, fuckable guy. In fact, she won't really know fuckable until she's found him.

[MissMillie]

44. I have lousy asshole radar

I've been dating for nearly a quarter of a century and didn't seen any of the assholes that I spent time with, and even if that's only 1 per year, that's a lot of assholes.

Enough to destroy once confidence, I should know.

[Tallison]

79. I was 25 before I got into nice guys

and what I found out is that they're a lot of assholes masquerading as them. I no longer reward assholes with a shot at sex (much less a relationship!).

[MissMillie]

136. I've always been into nice guys

I just don't seem to be able to spot the fakers.

[redqueen]

138. YES! There's a LOT who do a good job of pretending to be nice.

Way too many.

[GirlinContempt]

59. My experience is

many women are attracted to REAL nice guys. Not the nice guys who go around talking about what nice guys they are, or expect something for being a member of the human race with a little compassion.
Many of my friends are married to incredibly nice, sweet guys who treat them like gold, and who they in return treat that way.

The issue isn't that 'women' like 'assholes', but that men who generally think that way are generally looking for something unattainable and/or in the wrong place. The same can be said of women who think 'men' don't like 'x-type' of woman.

Acting like a jerk might get you laid, but is it going to find you the kind of relationship you WANT as a supposed nice guy? Do you WANT to be with a self-abusive person who doesn't like you for who you apparently are?

I'm sick and tired of this idea that everything that happens or doesn't happen is a result of some eternal force out of peoples control. Suck it up, do a little self reflecting, and acknowledge that maybe you're unreasonable or wrong in your search and THAT is why you're being rejected.

[redqueen]

137. I am!

I am definitely attracted to nice guys.

Just wanted to throw that out there. Your first sentence included a very incorrect generalization.

:hi:

[Spaceman Spiff]

14. I used to be a "nice guy"

until one day I came to the realization that nice guys are the ones who sit around listening to women complain about how their boyfriends treat them like shit.

[Tallison]

16. Don't sound like the women you should be wanting to date...

See my point?

[Spaceman Spiff]

18. Yes, I absolutely see your point

I've learned my lessons the hard way.

[Tallison]

21. Sorry to hear you're a "former"

Maybe you could reconsider? If you gave it a genuine shot, I bet you'd get the geuine attention of some quality women... :hug:

[Spaceman Spiff]

53. Actually

I've been with the same woman for almost 12 years now so I'm good. (Been monogamous (sp?) the whole time BTW.)

[Tallison]

82. Whew!

Congratulations to the both of you. :thumbsup:

[BlueIris]

20. Any man who would label you an "ungrateful bitch" isn't a "nice guy."

I think it's unlikely that he ever was.

I can't remember the last time I met a genuinely "nice guy," but I'm sure they exist out there somewhere. If you're going to keep looking, I'd advise you to continue to be prepared for major disappointment. It's just something I've had to accept, that they're rare, and it's even rarer to find one who is either a) single and looking or b) single, looking, and totally free from the psychological damage of having been screwed over by one too many women who either didn't or couldn't believe he was genuinely the proverbial "nice" type, (usually abandoning him in some hurtful way at some point) or actively used him as they had been used many times themselves. So, good luck, I guess, but...Patriarchy kills, hon, as I'm sure you probably already know.

[Tallison]

24. Thanks for getting my point

And I want to maintain the ideal that all men and women have the capacity, the potential to be very genuine in their relational representations.

I have one very good, platonic male friend who was at one time very up front about his attraction to me and has maintained his boundaries and objectivity in our friendship extraordinarily well for four years. With time his quality of character becomes more and more apparent. Increasingly I can see maybe going for it big time with him when I'm in a better place with myself, but I think it's cool he doesn't consider assurance of that a condition of our friendship. Makes me even more attracted to him not as a man, but as a person, and then as a man, if that makes any sense? :shrug:

[BlueIris]

27. It makes sense, and if he meets your criteria for a "nice guy" and can

therefore serve as your reminder that they are not totally mythical, even during these bitter times, that's great...but...your guy sounds like my last two long-term boyfriends. I don't know your guy or you, of course, so I can't tell if he fits this "type," but sometimes the men who are the biggest jerks in their adult relationships mask themselves not in the role of the "nice guy" who wants to date you, but in the role of the "good friend" who is "willing to wait." Who actually isn't either of those things. He might continue to be great (or at least good) for you as a friend, though. Maybe. Potentially. Just for the record, the worst mistakes I ever made were trying to make relationships out of "friendships" because the friends seemed so much more normal and congenial than the men I met on the dating circuit. I realize you didn't ask for advice here, but--if I were you, I'd tread carefully in this area. Especially at this point, when you may feel like giving up hope of ever meeting anyone you like in the non-platonic way ever again.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BlueIris]

32. Charming.

But it made me think of something else that rattles around in my brain a lot whenever the subject of asshole men and the women who try to get involved with them comes up. It must be such a comfort to the assholes of this world, knowing that the women they con into sleeping with them are unhealthily and unwisely choosing to do so only because they've responded to inappropriate treatment from said assholes as behavior the women process as "attractive." Must be a good self-esteem booster for the assholes, the awareness that they're getting laid with women who fuck them not as a result of those ladies' positive, life-affirming, self-respecting choices, but as the result of having been manipulated by a man who decided to wield a consciously-molded asshole persona in order to access the damaged parts of their psyche that interpret abuse from men as a form of kindness or love. Oh, wait...

[CanuckAmok]

37. I know you're being sarcastic, but it is!

Hey, I was a very nice guy for a long time, and got walked all-over because of it. Now I'm more of a jerk, quite comfortable with it, and to quote Monty Burns, "that fits me like a Speedo".

Our society is sick. Waiting to find a man or a woman with no emotional baggage, gender-hostility or self-esteem issues (it goes both ways; google "Adonis Complex") is like waiting for God to come around with a pan of fresh from heaven's oven brownies; it ain't gonna happen.

So there are two ways of proceeding:

Don't get romantically involved with anyone.

Get involved with someone who appeals to you on any number of levels, but go in to that relationship knowing you have to protect yourself in all conceivable ways, that the relationship is most likely not going to be enduring, and act accordingly. If that sometimes means building a wall of mild hostility/disinterest/sarcasm, then so be it.

How do you think I get along with you so well?

[Iniquitous Bunny]

70. We all have baggage.

I don't know anyone over 20 that doesn't. Seems to me being aware of one's own baggage and where we can go wrong ourselves as well as knowing what kind of baggage we want to deal with is the key. For example, I knew I never wanted to handle again the "addiction baggage". Somone could be a great person in recovery for years, but for me, BTDT, and I'm not going again. Certain other kinds of baggage that may bother some people, I can deal with easily.

[Tallison]

103. So just lower your your standards?!?

No, I've seen good relationships. What I fear is that they're the upshot of dumb fucking luck.

[Tallison]

102. I have always wondered the same thing

and try to articulate as much to self-professed nice guys who lament losing a woman to an asshole. Well, gee, on what is he really missing out? A shot at a long, loving relationship with a woman of damaged psyche who interprets abuse as a form of kindness or love, as you say? If he's so nice, he should consider himself spared, not cheated!

[Oeditpus Rex]

31. Speaking as one who's tried to be a Nice Guy all his life

I can tell you it didn't really kick in until I was well into my 40s. By "kick in," I mean... well, I stopped trying to be a Nice Guy and started being one. I stopped thinking stuff like "If I do this, then she'll do this, and I'll get what I want." I guess I just decided I didn't want relationships to be competitive anymore, because when you "win," you haven't won anything.

After one long-term relationship ended in an utter blind-side (she left without warning), I had to step back and take a hard look at what I was, what I'd been doing wrong and how I could correct it. Here're some of the highlights of what I learned:

•To get, you gotta give. That doesn't mean flowers, that means you.

•Giving is a whole lotta fun when you give to someone you truly care about. Making her or him happy means making yourself happy.

•If one isn't happy, neither can be.

•Being an asshole is harder than being a Nice Guy. Trying to be a Nice Guy while failing to acknowledge and deal with your assholery is even harder.

[RevCheesehead]

41. Guess what?

You are a nice guy! (and sexy as hell, too!) :hug::loveya:

[MissMillie]

43. Will you marry me?

I think you just summed up what I'm looking for in a relationship with a life-mate.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

45. AMEN! You have learned the secret!

The trouble with self-styled "nice guys" is that they try to bribe the woman into being attracted to them.

They're not really nice inside--they're desperate, and so they do all kinds of grovelly things as if to say, "Will you go to bed with me now? No? Well, how about if I take you to a fancy restaurant? How about if I listen to your troubles (while my mind is somewhere else)? No? How about if I repair your car? Still no? You nogood prick teasing BITCH!"

Falling in love doesn't happen through effort. It happens, and if you're lucky, it happens to both people. In many cases it happens to only one person and not the other, and there's not a whole lot you can do about it. Trying too hard will only make you loathsome to the other person.

Assholes can be superficially appealing because they don't care what women think of them, and because they counterfeit the qualities that women like. That comes off as self-confidence, and to a young woman who hasn't developed her bullshit detector, that is superficially attractive.

My advice to self-styled "nice guys":

1. Lose the martyr complex. Nothing repels like desperation. If you're clinically depressed, get help.

2. Maybe you're not nice. Maybe you're boring and bland and less interesting to be around than the average cat. Develop some new interests, especially ones that a lot of women share. Get out of your comfort zone.

3. Don't try to find a woman for a while. Work on becoming a genuine nice guy, as in being nice to people whether you're trying to get them into bed or not. Be friendly to women, even if they're not "your type" or are unavailable.

4. Become aware of other people's emotional vibes. I can tell if a man is attracted to me or, on the other hand, if he is completely uninterested in me. (I think most women have this skill, and it is an extremely valuable one.)

5. Look beyond the women who are superficially attractive to you. Too many men say, "I only go for a certain hair color" or "I only go for a certain figure type" or "I only go for a certain ethnic type." There may be a woman who is crazy about you but who doesn't fit your fixed image of the ideal girlfriend.

6. ONE I CAN"T EMPHASIZE STRONGLY ENOUGH: Have a platonic female friend assess you in terms of how you come across to women. Only a woman can tell you what vibes you're sending out to woman. Forget anything other young men tell you, because they don't have a clue.

[txwhitedove]

46. Thanks, O.Rex. You express “trying” to be a Nice Guy very well.

As a Nice Lady, I’m concerned about internet personal ads by mature men who NOW know what a real romantic relationship is and want it so badly. As a disillusioned Nice Lady who always knew what she wanted, I’m wary. I don’t put up the best pictures and don’t put out teasing lines, so am finding that even the mature guys are still primarily visually oriented and drop off quickly when you want to discuss issues of life rather than flirt. This attempt on-line is the equivalent of going on a date wearing a jacket vs. tank top so the guy will look me in the eye when he’s talking to me. See, that’s why I love DU, a mutual male-female verbal interaction with no expectations.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

47. I know what you mean about the visuals

When I had my photo online, along with a highly verbal description of what I was looking for, which made it clear that I was looking for someone who was very bright and very liberal, most of my response were from barely literate caveman types.

Actual example: "I am a fifyt year old employed male that likes hunting and fishing. I know how to treat a lady. Please write to me."

They can't possibly have read my profile. :shrug:

[txwhitedove]

48. Could you relate to this guy??

oohhh, scary...., not just the picture but what he says.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

76. Uh....pass!

:scared:

Besides, I'm neither young nor from Russia. :-)

[NewJeffCT]

49. good point!

I was in a similar situation. All through my teens & 20s, I was the proverbial "nice guy", as in "you're a nice guy, but not my type" while I listened to them complain about boyfriends that treated them like garbage. I tried to be modest, and seemed to notice that women went for the arrogant types ("I like a man that is confident, but not arrogant" But, then given a choice between an arrogant man and a nice guy, the arrogant ones seemed to always win out) ...I was depressed a lot of them time.

Finally, I met a woman that appreciated me for being a nice guy... she had actually gone through a really bad cycle, having met a guy that turned out to be married, and then when things got worse, she actually had to get a restraining order against him. So, I think it may have been like a pendulum swinging from one end of the spectrum back to me.

We got married, but had some bad luck right after we got married and things quickly deteriorated. She refused any sort of counseling, and if I tried to comfort her, I'd be accused of smothering her... if I gave her space, I was accused of being distant. Her method of trying to cheer herself up was to spend money on herself like George W. Bush showering his cronies with money. She also did almost no housework despite having only a part time job while I was working 60-70 hours a week at times. And, I had to do most of the work taking care of her dog. But, because I was a nice guy, I decided that I should do as much as I could to make her life easier... even if it meant sleeping only 3-4 hours a night.

Needless to say, that didn't work and she filed for divorce less than a year into our marriage saying I was lucky she didn't max out all my credit cards (never mind that I had to take out a 2nd mortgage on my home!) I even had to pay no alimony because of the debt she left me in... even though my job paid about 3 times what her job paid.

Thank goodness we had no children.

But, in turn, I decided to just not care so much about whether a woman thought I was a nice guy or not and just decided to go out & meet as many women as possible, from college students to women around my age & older going through similar situations. I was up front about my divorce and was always nice to them, but didn't get so worked up if things didn't work out after 1 or 2 dates... and, I also didn't invest so much emotionally into every woman I met (I used to have a habit of plotting out my entire future with a woman if she seemed like she'd make a good wife after our first date!)

For about 18 months or so, I dated at least 1-2 women every week, and usually more than that (heck, I had 3 dates in one day a few times!)... and this was despite having to take a 2nd job to help pay down my bills. So, I was working my first job, and a 2nd part-time job, but still managing to date a lot of women and also had time to play D&D with my guy friends on a weekly basis.

But, I managed to realize what I wanted in a woman and to recognize what would work in a long-term relationship (hint: it wasn't really big hooters & a high sex drive) and found a terrific woman and have been happily married for 4 1/2 years now, and have a beautiful 3 year old daughter.

[Iniquitous Bunny]

67. You need to write an advice column for men.

"•To get, you gotta give. That doesn't mean flowers, that means you.

•Giving is a whole lotta fun when you give to someone you truly care about. Making her or him happy means making yourself happy."


I can sum of the end to every relationship I've had in these two sentences (I'm a woman). I had kids with my ex, so we see each other on a regular basis. We're just business now, but I continually get this "victim vibe" from him. I've had a successful new new relationship. I don't think he is able to because he doesn't see it and doesn't even know how to give of himself. Sometimes I feel bad for him, but usually I'm just content with the fact I don't have to rely on him to meet my emotional needs any longer.

[Oeditpus Rex]

71. Good on ya

Humans shouldn't rely on other humans for their emotional needs — at least, not completely. Unless we're stellar communicators — and how often does that happen between men and women? — we aren't gonna understand all of the other's needs, and likely as not we're gonna misinterpret them. Either way, we're gonna respond in disaccordance a lot of the time. So it's much better if you have other sources, especially yourself, for your complete emotional well-being.

As for an advice column... who'd read it? Most guys don't think they need fixing. :shrug:

[Iniquitous Bunny]

74. I know.

I don't mean making someone else 100% responsible for someone else's emotional well-being. I'm talking about being be a supportive, empathic person vs. well, someone who isn't. There are people capable of loving interpersonal relationships and unfortunately, there are some who aren't. People, first and foremost, have to love and understand themselves in order to communicate what their needs are.

[StellaBlue]

69. Yep. That's the secret.

Too bad most men are too shallow to realize it.

:hi:

[Tallison]

122. If I could nominate a post for 'greatest,' this would take it

Time and difficult self-examination sound essential to your process. Congratulations on getting it. I'd say 'thanks,' but I bet that getting it is reward enough. :applause:

[redqueen]

139. Please WRITE A FUCKING BOOK!

YOU GET IT!

:bounce:

:hi:

:loveya:

[Random_Australian]

35. Awwww!

:hug:

(Just so long as this is not generalised to all nice guys)

[JVS]

39. This is boring without the juicy details of what happened and why you're..

angry.

[Tallison]

83. Fat chance

I posted in hopes of drawing a larger lesson from the petty, gory details. Nice try, though! :thumbsup:

:hi:

[LoZoccolo]

64. .

(For what it's worth, I realize that the same manipulative dynamic may occur in reverse direction between genders, but conventional male/female role power differentials in this culture make that scenario <i>way</i> less common.)

:rofl:

[Tallison]

96. What's so effing funny!?!?

I'M SERIES!!11!1!

[LoZoccolo]

105. I don't think I could really post it.

I'd need permission from the mods to speak freely or something because I've seen all sorts of weird stuff go down here in this area. I told it to a woman before and she didn't think it was sexist, and I feel it's a very compelling argument against power differentials, but someone would find a way to bash me over the head with it were I to tell it no matter how many people agreed with me, or even if you agreed with me (which I think you might).

Like I would defend your right to make the accusation against men...it helps me understand what some women think of men. I'd rather know that rather than not know it because you'd still think it either way. And you might even be interested in what I'd have to say. But some people aren't interested in knowing what I think regardless of the fact that I'd still think it no matter whether or not I have permission to say it, and because of them, no one can know enough of it to set me straight even if I were wrong.

So I don't think I can say. Suffice to say I don't agree with a part of your statement.

I see my primary purposes here as to get people to think more practically, and to get people involved in real-life politics. It would be a disservice to our common cause for me to risk my efforts there to post how I feel about something tangential in the DU Lounge.

[Tallison]

109. The dialogue here has been pretty fascinating

And for the same reason you say, to the extent that people are going to think things we disagree with anyway, we might as well know what those thoughts are. I think it's amazing that for a topic this sensitive I only count 1 deleted post so far.

I wish you felt more comfortable speaking freely. This dialogue is so important to establishing common understanding of one another's positions. I hate flame wars and am so glad to see a general absence of them among subthreads here. Damn, I wish I knew what you thought!

[LoZoccolo]

116. I guess I'll just say it.

I think women are generally more manipulative because it's one of the only available adaptive behaviors in a cultural system with a power differential that disfavors them.

Now I want people to take note that I didn't say that this is the way it has to be, or that all women are like this. Almost everyone is manipulative to some degree male or female.

What I've found is that the more dispempowered a woman is, through their circumstances or even just their perception of their circumstances, the more manipulative they are. I've known women who don't have much going for them by themselves (or who think they don't) who get much of everything done for them by messing with other peoples' emotions, especially lust and compassion. I know very independant women with good careers, education, and the initiative to get what they want by themselves who manipulate very little. Before anyone goes and accuses me of sexism, let me state right here and now that I much prefer to be in a relationship with the latter (they are way easier to relate to, so you can see I have my own selfish reasons for this and I'm not just paying lip service to it), and by extension, my preference is to empower women.

Now I think there'll be women who read this and agree that what I point out is a symptom of the power differential and will want things to change so that women don't resort to behavior that men often pick up on and recognize whether or not it's acknowledged publically. And I think there'll be others who'll want to supress recognition of this because they think it will allow them to hold on to this manipulative power in addition to the cultural reforms taking place to empower women materially.

[Tallison]

144. Damn...

Did you arrive at the first conclusion (about manipulativeness) yourself, through your own private reflection? It's pretty astute, is why I ask.

Since I'm a past psychiatric RN, what you're saying also provides some explanatory power behind borderline personality disorder, the key symptoms of which is compulsive manipulativeness. The disorder is almost exclusively prevalent among women, and those who were sexually abused as children at that.

It's pretty compelling. Going to have to reflect on this a bit, maybe consult my Camille Paglia and critical theory book.

If this theory is correct, the nostrum is to empower women more, as you said.

Seriously, thanks for sharing. Like peeling away an onion.

[LoZoccolo]

161. Not really.

The thing about it being adaptive in a male-dominated society was something someone else came up with when watching a nature documentary about chimpanzees or something, but then I started carrying it around and noticed that the women I like tend to be more self-confident; I don't get along with manipulative people in general very well so I notice whether or not people are pretty easily.

I'd thought about that borderline angle too but don't know much about the basis of it to really say much. Another thing I just kinda noticed is that borderline is more common in younger women; maybe people who have it sometimes learn to be more confident of their own abilities as they get older and shed the manipulative strategies.

Sorry if I came off real cocky at first; I think I was blowing off some steam from some bad experiences I've had (including a borderline ex-girlfriend - her admission, not my amatuer diagnosis) which was unfair.

[LoZoccolo]

133. So like, what do you think? n/t

[redqueen]

140. Dunno about Tallison...

but I think you made some very astute observations!

[Tallison]

145. See above under "Damn..."

I responded to the wrong post when I meant to respond to yours, oops...

[Ellen Forradalom]

66. Nice isn't always nice

Sometimes it's just manipulation and self-pity. I run in the opposite direction when I see that. Who needs it? I'd rather hang around with people who are simply themselves.

[Tallison]

113. "People pleasing is the subtlest form of manipulation"

...a very prescient friend of mine once said. I think that's pretty operative among what came to a head Friday.

"What, your're not so pleased you want to screw me? Screw you, bitch, I take it all back," was the upshot. The kicker was that I've been in a pretty vulnerable place lately, and his form of helping at least appeared to be what I needed at the time. Who knew it was all for the wrong reason? People can get pretty hurt under such circumstances.

[StellaBlue]

68. 26, one cat, lots of male friends, 50/50 straight/gay

Have only ever hooked up with one of them, stayed together four years, ended miserably.

It can happen. You are obviously just meeting typical, shallow, macho guys.

I was born a cynic. Intend to be a spinster (not old enough yet - I am still marriageable hahaha - though according to my aunt I will be "old" when I turn 27 later this month :shrug: ).

[Monk06]

72. All pretend sensitive guys must die. No I'm not faux sympathizing in order

to get into your pants. I've met guys like that
at parties. They hang around you until you say
something vaguely 'insensitive' or worse, 'sexist'

They make sure the ladies are within earshot of
their withering critique, hoping to impress
said ladies with their chivalry and courage.

Their ultimate aim however is to get laid at
the end of the evening. Sometimes it actually
works...or so I'm told.

[Name removed]

106. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tallison]

112. Sounds like you've had some bad experiences, yourself

Please feel free to share. I won't flame, but I will give you all the thoughtful, critical feedback you can stand. Tell me when to stop. I want to understand what happened, know how I can possibly behave differently in the future, to minimize the potential for such all-around grief in the future.

[dysfunctional press]

115. not really...

i've tended to recognize them for what they are, and steered clear.

[Tallison]

119. The term "cock-teasing bitches" belies

some suspect deep resentment. Rarely does a degree of such develop without some real personal experience, which is why I asked. I'm detecting many red flags given your posts both here and above, but go ahead and feel free not to share, too. I'd like to understand you better, is all, with the hope of minimizing bad feelings all around.

[dysfunctional press]

179. i calls'em like i sees 'em....it doesn't mean i've been taken in-

i'm an observant person, and i've seen them in action- they are loathsome creatures...and every one of them that ends up date raped most likely deserves it.

[Iniquitous Bunny]

73. Hmm...

Wainting to pursue a romtanic relationship?

Not wrong.

Name-calling?

Complete louser who won't be getting much of anything from anyone.

[Tallison]

114. Thanks

I'm trying to concentrate more on the lonely place from which he must be coming. God knows, I can related to loneliness and a sense of vulnerability! I prayed for him last night and felt a little better. What's insidious is that it wasn't until I was in a quite lonely and vulnerable place myself that he lept on with his specious gestures of help.

[Iniquitous Bunny]

126. I've been in places like that.

It's hard when a friend isn't much acting like a friend.

p.s. Sorry about my horrid spelling there before. I'm a bit burnt with work/school and somehow proper spelling (and even spell check) went right over my head. :hide:

[Mikimouse]

75. Practicing celibacy can be a real enlightening experience...

One of the most fulfilling relationships I ever had was one with a wonderful young woman back in my Lubbock days. I met her in 1993, but did not approach her until later in 1994, when I encountered her in a class I was taking at the time. I had also decided, after a hospitalization for depression, to chill for a while and try to modify some thinking patterns. I had never had a platonic friendship with a woman and was determined to find out if it was indeed possible for me to do so. In a nutshell, we dated off and on for two years. I never touched her in a sexual way, and only kissed her once, on the cheek. It broke my heart when she went in another direction, but only in a selfish way, as I had fallen in love with her. She was looking for her own path, and never said that it couldn't be the same one I was taking, but I left Lubbock shortly after to pursue my degree elsewhere. I ended up being happily celibate for 5 and a half years and leared a great deal about myself. When the spectre of expectation is always present, relationships suffer. The things that I did with her and for her were the most satisfying because of her response to them. When I sent her flowers, her eyes would light up, and she was clearly very happy. Even when we went skeet shooting (something she enjoyed and was good at as well), it was her success that gave me a thrill. As far as I am concerned, that relationship was the very best experience I have ever had.

[Tallison]

110. Spectre of expectation...

So well put. You remind me of my friend, Ian, whom I count as my sole male friend x4 years. The irony is that with time I can really see him being the one. His happiness in the world is the direct result of ome serious, difficult self-examination. Watching him go through it has enabled me to know myself better, and I increasingly want to share in his happiness, especially knowing that I'm inessential, and therefore not a threat, to it.

[Deja Q]

107. Men are scum.

[Tallison]

111. Come on now...

No they're not. They sure can act like it sometimes, as can women. My OP was about a particular form of scum like behavior primarily perpetuated by men that I want to understand better so it doesn't cause me such grief in the future.

No generalizations! No flame wars!

[Blue_Tires]

108. as least one consolation is

things aren't that much better for guys in the dating world as well

[Wetzelbill]

117. I have lots of platonic friends...

sometimes a "nice guy" type can feel like they are getting led on. It may not be a woman's intention to make a guy feel that way, but sometimes when a woman is always calling the "nice guy-type" or hanging out with him etc, a guy can get his signals completely mixed. A guy will typically look for and interpret almost any sign as one that a woman is into him. For example, if you just like hanging out with the "nice guy" and over the course of a night, you laugh at his jokes, maybe touch him -like put your arm around him buddy style - and make eye contact, well, that is similar to what a woman might do to someone she is very attracted to. So if this guy is getting this all wrong over the course of afriendship, he may be building up the courage to make his move and when he finally does and gets totally rebuffed, it can be a shock. That doesn't excuse his behavior, but he may feel like he was let on or that you were teasing him etc.

Now, of course, he was wrong about that, but in his eyes he was seeing more than was actually there. I had it happen before, not to that extent, but I'm the sort of guy who women will gravitate to and want to be friends with. I am funny, artistic and a pretty friendly and nice person. A lot of the times a woman will give me the same signals that she would to somebody she was interested in sexually. Laughing, smiling, eye contact, touching etc. It's hard to decipher. I often wonder if I'm too cautious, because I almost exclusively will not ever try to go out with someone I am friends with. However, I just don't like the risk, because something like the situation you were involved with can happen. I have dated women I was friends with, but that is because they ended up making the first move with me.

My one mistake was this girl would always come over to my house, as she was friends with my female roommates. (I lived with three women at the same time, I was the only male) She seemed like she was into me, including one night she came into my bedroom and we talked for hours on end until almost sunup. Nothing happened, we just enjoyed the conversation, but it felt like something else was going on, you know? Well, for several reasons it seemed like she clearly liked me, so I mentioned to one of my roommates one night that, her friend and I had been having a good time hanging out, talking etc, and that I'd go out with her sometime if she wanted. I say this because, I was never interested in her, but it seemed like she was so interested in ME that I was willing to give her a shot, because she seemed like a cool person and so on.

Ok, I was horribly off on that one, because my roommate mentioned it to her and she got all pissed off. "We're just friends, how could he think that etc." It was not pretty. We ended up not getting along for several weeks after that, merely because I said I would go out with her if she was interested, which I had thought she obviously was. It turned out, she really liked me and would always want to hang out with me, come into my room etc etc, but mainly because she thought we were getting to be good friends. So here I was thinking that I would give a shot to someone who truly was attracted to me and I had read the whole thing wrong. I was not even interested in her like that, but she seemed so adamant I found her attention attractive and endearing. In the end, because of my mistake, our friendship cooled for about a month or so. I would say our friendship never did fully evolve after that though, I never let her back in all that much and eventually I moved away. The few times I have been home she profusely apologized to me for her reaction, but really we both made mistakes, I made the mistake of taking her actions wrong and she overreacted to me thinking she liked me. So I basically make it a point not to get involved with friends at all, unless they make the move first. I think it also would benefit everybody involved if a woman made it clear she wasn't interested in the guy. Because a guy will almost always end up being interested in the woman. It's the nature of the beast. A woman, and it sucks I know, has to be wary about these "nice guy" "friend" types and how they are taking -or mistaking- the whole relationship. As I said earlier a few times, I just don't even go that route with women I am friends with, there is just too much that could go wrong, feelings can get hurt etc. I find that if a woman is interested she'll let me know. And, you know, this happens with any guy, not just nice guy types. It's just that you are probably more apt to not notice it, because woman usually only categorize their friends as "nice guy" types and not somebody they are interested in. Now somebody's interest is always somebody else's "Nice Guy" and they have a whole different situation altogether in those relationships. Labels really are just labels. You basically have to consider any guy in the same light, whether you think of them as just a friend or more, because pretty much any guy is going to take certain signals or events the same way.

[hunter]

183. I have zero confidence in my ability to read people.

Whenever I was staying up all night talking with a woman I always assumed it was because she wanted to stay up all night talking with me.

Of course, being a guy, I was having fantasies of her ripping off her blouse and yelling "Take me now, you fool!" but I always allowed we were simply talking because we were friends, and it was nice. Who knows? Maybe I passed up some fine opportunities for sex.

A long time ago, before I met my wife, a friend and I were on a bus coming home from a field camp. We were all exhausted and she fell asleep resting against me. For all the world we must have looked like a couple, but we were "just friends." She trusted me, I trusted her, and we were both happy.

I always expected one of my friendships would develop into a permanent relationship -- that we'd be like thirty-something, and one of us would say "Let's get married" and the other would say "Yes, let's.

This was until I met my wife. Our relationship started out as Love-at-First-Sight-Fireworks and quickly got deeper. But if I hadn't met my wife, I think the other sort of relationship would have turned out well too. I never had a relationship where I thought a woman was "leading me on" or anything like that.

[leftofthedial]

118. quit whining. go find some abusive neanderthal bad boy

get him a beer, give him a blowjob and rejoice in your fulfillment.

that's what all women want, right?

:sarcasm: (for any humorless PC DU halfwits who couldn't figure it out without instructions)

[Tallison]

120. Shhhh!!! Don't tell!!!! You'll ruin it for all of us ladies!!!

:spank: :rofl:

[Wetzelbill]

121. Somebody call for me?

:rofl:

Although, I am more of a three-quarters wit.

[Tallison]

124. Fucking hell

Thanks for the levity. :rofl:

[txwhitedove]

123. She should check Yahoo Personals, there is a Cro-Magnon...

man seeking Cavewoman, within 100-mi of Houston, a Liberal in
fact!  Perfect.  Still undecided about the tats.

[alcibiades_mystery]

125. Sarcastic

and yet...true...;-)

[Midlodemocrat]

127. Well, for me, personally, I believe in the 'myth'.

I am married to quite possibly the nicest person alive. He is wonderfully kind, fantastically successful at his work, devoted to his children and adores me.

What more could I ask for? I also happen to have three nice guy brothers whose wives feel the same way about them that I do about mine.

And, FWIW, I'm raising my son to be a nice guy. I love nice. Nice people make my day.

[Tallison]

146. Keep it up

I know there are nice guys out there. What burns me are the faux ones who do the right things for the wrong reasons around emtionally vulnerable women then withdraw once she doesn't reward him with sex.

It's been a long time in the making, but as they say in some recovery circles, ladies, when the going gets tough, stick with the other women.

[mikeytherat]

147. Well, Midlo, I'm one of the "nice guys" and I've been that way forever

Never dated the "most popular" girls, never hung out with the "A-list" jocks, and did not join the "hip" fraternity in college - I dated "nice" girls, I hung out with the "nice" jocks, and I joined a "nice" frat in college. And what did it get me? This October, I celebrate 16 blissful years of marriage to the greatest woman in the world, I have a great life, and I have lots of friends. Plenty of my "very popular" acquaintances over the years are on marriage #2 or 3, hate life, and are very, very negative.

Here's to the nice guys and gals of the world!

mikey_the_rat

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

176. Time out here.

As another nice guy in the audience, being nice has NOTHING to do with:

• Dating the most popular girls


• hanging out with (or being) the A-list jocks


• joining the "hip" fraternity

I did ALL of those things, thankyouverymuch, and I'm still quite a nice guy.

[applegrove]

128. Sorry for you if you feel that way. Some people are really kind. All sorts

in the world. But some people, many, are lovely.

[sendero]

132. A final thought..

.... a man should not tolerate being a 'nerdy call' any more than a woman should tolerate being a 'booty call'.

[Schema Thing]

134. I like it!

and I've also just screwed up your final thought.

[redqueen]

141. What does that mean?

What's a "nerdy call"?

We all know a "booty call" is someone you just contact for casual sex.

And IMO that's fine and dandy so long as both people know the score... it's only intolerable if the guy's lying to her - e.g. with hints or declarations of "I love you" - to get casual sex. And that happens A WHOLE FUCKING LOT.

so what on earth is a "nerdy call"?

[mikeytherat]

153. I assume a "Nerdy Call" is the equivalent of a "Handyman Call."

Something is broken, the computer is messed up, my universal remote is screwed up, etc. Sort of like calling in The Geek Squad for free.

mikey_the_rat

[Tallison]

154. In Winchester, VA, there's "Rent a husband" handyman service

At times like this I need to inquire about the perks. :D

[redqueen]

156. Ah...

yeah, that's being used... unless the woman is really the guy's friend, and he doesn't mind doing it... and that *definitely* doesn't mean he doesn't mind doing it if and only IF he thinks he's gonna get some tail eventually.

[sendero]

159. In the context..

... of this discussion, I think the meaning is pretty clear. I came up with the best word I could, there would probably be a better one someone else could come up with. :)

As for your second point - I couldn't agree more. I had a close relationship with a woman who explained to me, when things progressed a little slower than I'd hoped, that she was sick of men who would say anything to get her in the sack.

I couldn't agree with her more, and I think guys who have to make shit up to get laid are pathetic.

[redqueen]

162. Yeah, but I'm kinda slow sometimes...

Truly.

And I agree, they are. :hi:

But does that make me more pathetic, for believing at least one of them? Ah, the lies we tell ourselves, when we're so desperate to believe...

[sendero]

164. Naw...

... we all get fooled in the game of love at some point. No exceptions to the rule :)

There's nothing inherently pathetic about believing a lie, but then if something is too good to be true, it probably isn't :)

All I'm advocating is honesty, on both sides. There is nothing wrong with a woman wanting a "friend", but there are damn few red-blooded healthy men who have time to waste on platonic relationships. IMHO. I was faced with this situation one time, I wasn't nasty about it - I just said "in that case, I'm done here" and stopped returning her calls :)

[Lydia Leftcoast]

186. A platonic friendship is a "waste"?

Unless you're so fixated on getting laid that you'll rapidly break off contact with anyone who doesn't put out according to your schedule, that's kind of sad.

Since when is any kind of friendship a "waste"?

[Tallison]

155. Having been on the receiving end of some booty calls...

...there have been occassions on which I really haven't minded, the deal being we both knew the max for which it was worth . Common understanding is key. Has warmed up my evenings many a night! :D

[cobalt1999]

143. try turning down a female friend.

My experiences taught me that women are much less able to handle rejection than men (probably lack of experience).

The two times female friends made an advance on me and, for different reasons, I turned them down, it got surprising ugly.

Hell hath no fury...

[JVS]

148. Do tell!

:popcorn:

[Tallison]

149. Move over

Yum!!! :popcorn:

[JVS]

151. Plenty of room on the couch

:popcorn: :popcorn:

[cobalt1999]

166. ahhh, you two are bad.

no wonder your friends want to sleep with you.

[NashVegas]

158. If You Want a Platonic Relationship With a Man

Pick someone who's gay or married and committed to that relationship, and will abide by his boundaries.

But you must understand: you'll never come first.

[Indy_Dem_Defender]

165. Since I'm supposedly one of those "Nice Guys"

I'll share my perspective on a experience I had, this was with a "Christian female" and not just from this experience but other experiences with "Christian females" if I hear a woman say she's a christian I'm going 90 miles an hour in the other direction.

So I meet this female at a friend's birthday, she went to his church so he invited her to come to his birthday get together. I had prejudice against her before I met her from past experiences with "christian Females" who I was friends with and thought they wanted to be more than friends. One instance was when I was asked by this christian female friend to come dancing with her and she said "we'll have a good time." Well the "We'll" turned out to be me being a third wheel when I meet her there and she brings her boyfriend. Little did I know this chick had a boyfriend, she had never mentioned him in the 3 months I had know her, so I assume since she was so nice to me and had even helped me with networking a job she really must of like as more than a friend.

So off that rant and back to this christian chick, I meet her at his birthday party and she is so sweet and I just honestly wanted to be just her friend because she already had a boyfriend, that's how our relationship was established as friends. Over the next 6-9 months I just really talked to her, boyfriend had no problem, I wasn't a threat. She breaks up with the boyfriend because "wasn't being christian enough" and I started getting closer to her and since she's my friend I try to cheer her up during this time. I'm going through my own drama at this time so we are just there for each other.

After a while I noticed what I thought was little hints such as constant complements and flirting that wasn't there before, Honestly I didn't think I was her type so I didn't react at first, then when she started baking me stuff like deserts when I come over, a green light went off in my head and I start to contemplate if a relationship could work with her. I figured since she's showing me so much more affection then she had before she is interested we both had the qualities we where looking for in a relationship and we got along so well I should go for it. I up the anty and send her flowers with note about how much she means to me, she seems so happy from this and blown off her feet by this act. Then a couple days later I get a message her saying "She can't be my everything" and I must of been getting mixed messages. I'm like well, I took this and this and this as a sign, and I put those together to come to my conclusion, I say to her can we sit down and talk this over, I never can get a straight answer from her because she avoids me and I lose contact with her over all this. It's sucks I lost a good friend, I've just always wondered what where her intentions and how did she expect me to react to them.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

177. Sounds more like you're not picking up the right signals.

As a general rule of thumb, you don't get "signals" from friends. Don't ever think you're getting a signal from a friend. If a friend develops feelings for you, they will A) either tell you, B) severely change their PHYSICAL interaction with you (not necessarily planting a kiss, but getting more touchy-feely than normal), and/or C) become nervous and awkward around you.

This is why I establish from day 1 my intentions when making a female acquaintance. They are once and forever categorized and instituted as either friend or potential lover within the first few encounters and I make it very known to them if they fall into the latter. It's worked wonders for me.

[JVS]

169. So is everyone done here?

[In_The_Wind]

170. Nice guys ~

:yourock:

[LanternWaste]

171. I haven't read most of the responses to this, but...

I haven't read most of the responses to this, but...

If a guy does that, he's not *really* a nice guy-- just your typical dirtbag masquerading as a nice guy.

And if it helps, there are still a few nice guys left, we just don't go around advertising ourselves as such 'cause we're afraid of getting walked on by manipulative women.

When I started my current position, there was a girl in my office who was super-duper nice to me and made a point of telling me how cool I was, how interseting my life is, etc... I thought she was one of the nicest girls I'd ever met until she told me she wanted to cheat on her husband with me. When I told her I thought way too much of our friendship to allow that to happen, she turned into the coldest, meanest, most vndictive gal I've known since High School (and the problem is we're *still* working in the same office and she pulls this on other guys, too.

Hey! Your venting to into me counter-venting... but I'm a bit bored, sitting at my desk during my lunch hour and eating M&M's.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

178. A-fucking-men to that

And if it helps, there are still a few nice guys left, we just don't go around advertising ourselves as such 'cause we're afraid of getting walked on by manipulative women.

Couldn't have said it better myself. After a while, we either continue being doormats or we learn self-defense measures.

[Taverner]

172. Stay away from "nice guys"

Ted Bundy, the BTK killer and John Wayne Gacy were all "nice guys."

[SteppingRazor]

173. Counterpoint:

Guy A is one of these so-called nice guys. He's very nice to Gal A, hoping he can eventually hook up.

Gal A is not an idiot. She knows what Guy A is up to, and takes full advantage of him -- getting him to help her move and what have you.

Eventually, Guy A makes his move, gets turned down, and calls Gal A an "ungrateful bitch."

Who's the asshole in this scenario?

[In_The_Wind]

174. Gal A

She's also a jerk!

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

175. Perhaps you're just inexperienced in determine who nice guys are.

Nothing like failing to take some of the blame.

[Crotalus]

180. A few points to add

Having taken some time to formulate some thoughts I’d like to add a few of them to this discussion.


1. Being a nice guy, like most worthwhile endeavors takes constant effort, maintenance, and discipline. For some, putting others wants or needs above your own may come naturally, for me it does not. It takes a certain amount of perspective to be able to short-circuit natural selfish tendencies, which I believe we all have.

2. A platonic friendship between two, straight, attractive members of the opposite sex is not a natural state, it requires all of the effort involved in maintaining #1 above. This does not mean it’s not worthwhile to try, but to do so, one is working against evolution and sexual selection that is both, hard wired into our genetics, and reinforced by learned behavior from birth (for most).

3. Being upfront about your feelings is critical to #2. If you are attracted, you might as well get it out in the open, so that there is no pretense on either side. The guy should be able to know that the woman is aware of his interest, and vice versa. If, due to bad timing, for instance, there is no chance of a romantic relationship, a platonic friendship can be almost as rewarding. If you genuinely enjoy someone’s company, then the company alone should be enough. This does not negate a possible future romantic relationship, but the chance of having one cannot be the basis, or the reason, for the friendship. The friendship offer has to be unconditional of potential sex.

4. Assuming you have achieved #3 above, than the next real obstacle is if one or the other parties becomes involved romantically with someone else. A third party is likely to be extremely suspect of the friendship, and rightly so. Likewise feelings of jealousy or betrayal also seem natural between the two platonic friends. A truly altruistic person could possibly be happy for the new couple, and back off as far or as little as is needed for the third parties comfort. This scenario is likely the end of most platonic friendships, which are already fairly rare.

Personally, I am currently in two platonic friendships with women.

One is with my estranged wife, whom I consider a great friend, despite the fact that sex is no longer on the table (or anywhere else) between us. We have both dated other people during our separation, and while difficult for both of us, we have managed to make it work. Again I have found that discipline, in this case mental discipline, to be the key to not allowing feelings of jealousy or betrayal to become strong enough to allow our friendship, or my own mental state, to suffer. By simply not allowing myself to follow certain trains of thought I can usually keep any negative emotions in check, and focus on the positive. The fact that we can discuss our other relationships, and ask for, or offer, un-tainted advice is one of the barometers that I measure our friendship’s success by.

The second platonic friendship, is still in its infancy. There was no real romantic relationship to start with, and as such I never really fell for this woman, although we both know I could have. This makes things easier on one hand, because there is less of an emotional investment. On the other hand, exactly because there is no prior romantic relationship, the natural urge to “see what could be” is quite strong. Every incidental touch is charged, and a new relationship type of energy is quite unavoidable, at least for my part. The latter point causes me to constantly question my own motivations and actions to ensure that I am as good as my word to not allow my personal desire to affect the friendship.

[martymar64]

182. Two cents from another "nice guy"

I've always considered myself a "nice guy". I can't begin to count the times that I've been suckered in by women that act like they like you but only want someone to hang out with between boyfriends or to fix stuff at their house, but wouldn't say it. I would make my attraction known but it would always end up with the "I like you only as a friend" line. To me, it was like being called a pussy or a fag or something equally derogatory. I've only lost it once in reaction to this and I'm not proud of it, but I felt so humiliated that I just couldn't take it. These women made me feel used and worthless, no to mention a little bitter. Eventually, as a result, I just simply quit dating. It's lonely, without a doubt, but at least I'm not being used and abused.

I'm not happy about my present situation, mind you, but I don't trust my instincts about who is or isn't attracted or attractive to me. I now just make the assumption that no woman is attracted to me sexually, even though I'm quite handsome, funny, super-intelligent and artistically talented (or so I've been told). When I find myself being attracted to someone, I just assume that they just want to use me or get back at their boyfriend or some fucked-up thing like that, so I just avoid them. When that happens, I end up coming across as being cold or aloof towards them, even though I'm really not. I just don't feel I can be myself and show my attraction, because I know I'll just be shot down in flames. The only women I ending being able to talk to are my friends' wives because I know they are off-limits and therefore safe. It hurts and is depressing as hell but I don't see any real alternative right now, short of some woman approaching me. Like that's going to happen!
I'm sorry to make this into a monologue but it's been really bugging me more than usual lately and had to vent a little. I'm always open to advice, especially from women. I don't like where I'm at with this, but I don't know what to do about it.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

185. If you're really as wonderful as you say...

maybe your "tragic flaw" is an attraction to women who will hurt you.

Try dating "against type." There may be some women who is crazy about you for real, but you ignore her because she's "not your type."

[Easy]

184. There's another kind of nice guys

I mean those who know that they can be rather selfish and nasty, and because of that scrutinize themselves all the time. To an extend I'd place myself in this category. It's not that I actually force myself to be nice, or that I have a hidden agenda. It's just that I am always very aware and critical of my thoughts and actions and always try to not be an asshole. And I think that this kind of behaviour is not that uncommon.

~Easy

[Jed Dilligan]

188. How about this angle

I'm a straight guy, not single, probably not "nice" but considered a good friend by many straight women.

I for one wouldn't be friends with anyone who isn't attracted to me. If the answer is "when hell freezes over" rather than, "it sounds like fun but " I don't see the person as a friend I can totally trust. She thinks there's something wrong with me, and this will affect our friendship in other ways.

On the other hand, an un-acted-upon mutual attraction can be a really good spark to keep a friendship going over the years.

I do agree with you that it's ugly when adults act like kids (as your "friend" apparently did) but I really don't see how you could be a complete friend to someone you find totally unattractive. Seeing someone's sex appeal is part of being their friend, and everyone has it if you're willing to look.