And the Marge Shott award goes to...

[Archae]

Chicago White Sox manager Ozzie "Dumbfuck" Guillen! :dunce:

And he doesn't need "sensitivity training," he needs a 2 x 4 over his pointy head. :-)

Sensitivity Training Ordered For White Sox Manager
Manager Makes Derogatory Comments About Journalist

CHICAGO -- Chicago White Sox manager Ozzie Guillen was fined Thursday by commissioner Bud Selig and ordered to attend sensitivity training for making derogatory comments about a reporter this week.

Guillen has apologized for using a derogatory term in referring to Chicago Sun-Times columnist Jay Mariotti on Wednesday. That didn't stop him from uttering further criticism of the writer.

Guillen went into a profanity-laced tirade against Mariotti before Tuesday night's game against St. Louis. Guillen called him a number of names, including a derogatory term often used to describe someone's sexual orientation.

Guillen called Mariotti ''a piece of s---'' and a "f------ fag,'' according to the Chicago Sun Times.

(snip)

Jay's a piece of s---,'' Guillen said Wednesday, according to the Sun-Times. ''If he wants to know, he should be talking to me here right now. If he were a man, he'd be here ... Why he's so afraid to show up to the ballpark? When you're afraid to do something, you feel guilty about something, then tell him we'll pay his cab. Tell him to tell us where he lives, and we'll bring him to the ballpark and we'll have a conversation. But that's the way he is. He's garbage, still garbage, going to die as garbage. Period.''

The reporter didn't seemed phased by the comments.

In his latest column, Mariotti wrote,
"Personally, I can shrug it off as an occupational hazard, knowing I'm called meaner things at the coffee stand every morning. I also know it places me on an extraordinarily long list of people the Blizzard has dissed or launched into, including Magglio ("Venezuelan '') Ordonez, Buck Showalter, Phil Garner, Sean Tracey, the Los Angeles Angels, every American League umpire, the reporter he threatened to rub out last winter and, by not showing up at the White House for a ceremony, the President of the United States.

Ozzie? He makes Mark Cuban seem like Virginia McCaskey."


The reporter went on to call White Sox Chairman Jerry Reinsdorf an "enabler who is letting Ozzie run amok." Mariotti also said that Guillen is an embarrassment to a city, a franchise and a sport and called for his suspension.

Guillen also went off on a profanity-filled tirade last season against former teammate and fellow Venezuelan Magglio Ordonez, who left the White Sox and joined the Detroit Tigers.

http://www.themilwaukeechannel.com/sports/9408883/detail.html

[KitchenWitch]

1. No kidding

I do not know how that particular barrage passes for "endearing" to White Sox fans.

[bumblebee1]

2. As long as the White Sox are winning,

their fans wouldn't care if Ozzie was standing in a major intersection in Chicago shouting mfer, c***sucker. f*ck you, etc. Fans look the other way at bad behavior when their team is winning.

[Oeditpus Rex]

3. Managers are paid to win ball games

not endear themselves to fans.

I assume Guillen's tirade was launched in the confines of the clubhouse, and every clubhouse has (or used to have) a sign reading, "What you see here, what you say here, let it stay here."

Asspipe reporters ignore this and should be chastized for it, and for just being asspipes. And too many of them are asspipes.

And that line about dissing * — :eyes:

[Pale Blue Dot]

59. Excusing racist or homophobic comments because "no one was supposed to be

listening"....

Good plan. :eyes:

[reyd reid reed]

4. Y'know what...

This is Baseball. It's not an election...the man is paid to manage a ball club, not to kiss anyone's ass.

Sensitivity training? Okay...maybe what he said was crude. Maybe he could've phrased it better...but come on. He's not the anti-christ. He's a ball player.

PC run amok.

Just my opinion, though.

[Archae]

5. But that's what leads to...

Guys like Michael Schumacher in NASCAR, George Steinbrenner, Randy Moss, Reggie White, and so on.

"Sure, the guy/woman is an asshole, but they win games..."

[Oeditpus Rex]

7. A lot of assholes have won games

and few people knew they were assholes. Ty Cobb, for example.

Point is, this never should've been made public.

[reyd reid reed]

8. Maybe...

but it's not even about winning games. It's about what these guys are. Who they are. They're Not politicians. They're NOT PR people. They're athletes. They're rough around the edges and that's one of the reasons we like 'em. The guy down the street pisses us off, we don't think about going to 'sensitiviy seminars'...we think about calling him every name we can think of.

These guys start patting their players on the head when they strike out, saying, "So you struck out, A.J. So you're 0 for your last 24. You got out there and Tried and that's what counts," no one's gonna wanna watch. They're gonna get ragged at for being weak.

Let 'em be what they are. And if that includes going off on a sports writer, well, Mariotti's a big boy. And he's prolly gone off on his share of people, too. Ever watch "Around the Horn"?

[Heidi]

9. If he had used a racial epithet,

would that have been acceptable? I don't believe that if he'd used the "N" word about a reporter, we'd be quite so eager to dismiss it and say that the reporter is a big boy. :shrug:

[reyd reid reed]

12. We wouldn't know about it.

I'm sure it's been said and more than once. But that's not going to get reported. And reporters DO have to suck it up. They're going to get up in these guys' faces and push and push and push until they get them to say something 'interesting', they need to be able to deal with what they get, even if it's directed at them.

[Derailer]

13. Schumacher in NASCAR?

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

17. Michael Schumacher in NASCAR?

Michael Schumacher is in Formula 1, unless there's something I don't know... :shrug:

[Blue_Tires]

65. Schumacher is in Formula 1

(maybe you were thinking about Tony Stewart?)

[Heidi]

6. Homophobia isn't PC run amok,

in my opinion. When a public figure says stuff like this, it sends a message that hate speech is acceptable.

Edited to add: I don't believe people like Gullien should be censored. We're all better off when those beliefs, however repugnant, are out in the open.

[Oeditpus Rex]

10. You're suggesting jocks should grow up?

That'd be the ruin of sport. :cry:

[reyd reid reed]

11. No, it isn't

But I don't necessarily think that his comments were homophobic. I think that he just didn't think and used the term like so many kids do. And that doesn't make it right...I won't let my kids use language like that...and it's thoughtless and it's tacky, but...

He spoke in the heat of the moment and his choice of words was poor and he apologized.

[Derailer]

14. In that usage I really don't see his comment as homophobic

[Misunderestimator]

28. Not a surprise.

[Pale Blue Dot]

60. I'm a "manager"

Of a store in a national retail chain.

Should I tell my staff that a customer who criticizes our store is a "fag"?

How is this different, except for some massively misplaced hero worship?

[texasleo]

15. calling someone a fag isn't homophobia.

let's join the real world.

[Beware the Beast Man]

18. Would calling someone a "nigger" not be racism?

Get real. "Fag" is a homophobic slur.

[terrya]

19. Bullshit

PLEASE. "Fag" is pure, out and out, grade A 100% homophobia. It's a vicious homophobic slur. It is indeed the gay equivalent of the "N" word.

As a gay man who has had the word "fag" hurled at me a few times, I know of what I speak. As other gay men can attest.

[arwalden]

20. Astounding.

:eyes: :shrug:

Thanks for your, uh... 'insight'.

[Heidi]

21. Yes, let's join the real world, where

progressives don't defend hate speech.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

22. Yes, let's join the real world.

"Fag" is vicious, Grade-A homophobia. At the VERY least, it represents ignorance--perhaps yours?--of what it originally means, and ignorance leads to bigotry.

Please. That is an astoundingly ignorant, rude comment.

:eyes:

[Misunderestimator]

26. "the real world" of bigotry... why should we join it?

Can you please explain why you think calling someone a fag is not homophobia?

[foreigncorrespondent]

62. Uh-huh!

And what "real world" would that be? The one where homophobia just doesn't happen?

[Sapphocrat]

70. How about "fucking fag"?

Let's get the quote right. Does calling someone a "fucking fag" fit your definition of homophobia? Or do you insist that "homophobia" means "fear of homosexuals," exclusively?

[AngryAmish]

16. Lets be clear: Mariotti is a piece of shit

But Ozzie is in the wrong for the other stuff. But what do you expect from the most corrupt organization in professional sports?

[Duncan Grant]

23. Kicking because one should get to know other DUers.

I love it when people come out of their closets (so to speak...). Let's hear more DUers defend this "usage".

C'mon, go ahead. I'm all ears.

edit: :kick:

[Oeditpus Rex]

24. Ignorance

Can you prove homophobia based on one word?

[Misunderestimator]

27. Yes... "FAG"... used as an insult. That's proof of homophobic bigotry.

Interesting as hell to me how no gay people are defending its use. Why do you think it is that only a few non-gay people do?

[Oeditpus Rex]

29. It *might* prove bigotry

How does it prove homophobia?

You seem to be approaching a similar condemnation of those who don't immediately label Guillen a bigoted homophobe.

[Misunderestimator]

30. Homophobia IS bigotry. Why would you think otherwise?

Edited to clarify... it's HOMOPHOBIC bigotry, because FAG is a derogative term used to describe a gay man. Used as an insult towards ANYONE, gay or otherwise, is homophobic bigotry.

[Oeditpus Rex]

31. Homophobia is a phobia

Bigotry is bigotry. One may lead to the other, but they aren't the same.

[Misunderestimator]

32. There are many definitions of homophobia. "Fear of" is just one of them.

"Fear of" is just one of them. No one I know uses the term homophobia as a fear or phobia. It is used as a term of discrimination.

-----------------------
3 entries found for homophobia.

ho·mo·pho·bi·a Audio pronunciation of "homophobia" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (hm-fb-)
n.

1. Fear of or contempt for lesbians and gay men.
2. Behavior based on such a feeling.

-----------
Main Entry: ho·mo·pho·bia
Pronunciation: "hO-m&-'fO-bE-&
Function: noun
: irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals —ho·mo·phobe /'hO-m&-"fOb/ noun —ho·mo·pho·bic /"hO-m&-'fO-bik/ adjective

-----------
homophobia

n : prejudice against (fear or dislike of) homosexual people and homosexuality

-----------

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/homophobia

[Oeditpus Rex]

33. So I'll return to the previous question

Does use of that word prove Ozzie Guillen is afraid of gay people, has contempt for them, is averse to them, discriminates against them or is prejudiced against them?

Or does it simply indicate that he's an ignorant ass?

(Use caution with your answer. "Prove" is a strong, narrowly defined word. And that's the basis of my argument.)

[Misunderestimator]

34. He used the term FAG as an insult. It would be exactly like using N*****

as an insult. Would you think that he was not being racist (not that he IS racist, but that he is BEING racist) if he did that?

Why does one have to PROVE that he is homophobic anyway? It's enough that what he said is severely bigoted and insulting to homosexuals, is it not? How does one prove that someone who uses N***** is a racist? It doesn't change the fact that it's a racist word to use in the context of an insult.

[Oeditpus Rex]

35. I dunno

It was you who said "That's proof of homophobic bigotry" in the first place. So tell me why it needs to be proven.

Me, I try not to make assumptions based on scant evidence — in any direction. You and others automatically condemn Guillen because he stupidly used a word in a fit of pique. Would you rush to his defense if he'd called the writer a "hack"? Probably not, but in journalism circles, that's a pretty strong insult, too.

I think it's incumbent upon us to try to see things from other angles rather than rush to conclusions.

[Misunderestimator]

36. You posted "Can you prove homophobia based on one word?"

I said that the use of the term FAG was "proof of homophobic bigotry" in response to that. You tell ME why it needs to be proven, since you're the one that asked if it could be.

Of course I automatically condemn someone for using FAG as an insult, just as quickly as I would condemn someone for using N*****.

It's hilarious that you compare "hack" to "fag" as if it is anywhere near as insulting. I think it's incumbent upon us to recognize bigotry for what it is, and stop excusing its use.

[Oeditpus Rex]

38. I agree

You and I simply disagree on what constitutes bigotry — obviously, since you dismissed "hack" as "hilarious."

Is a word an insult only if it applies to you? Are only some insults worth defending? If so, who defines the degree?

"Hack" would be highly insulting to me. But I'd consider the user an asshole, not a journalism bigot. The mere use of the word isn't enough to make that generalization. But apparently, in your mind, I'm wrong for making that distinction.

[Misunderestimator]

40. An insulting word is bigoted if it applies to an entire group.

The term "hack" is an insult to one of a group of others... that being one "bad" writer, or charlatan, among "good" ones. It is not an insult to all writers everywhere, and is therefore not in itself a bigoted word, since it does not apply to an entire group of people. N***** applies to all blacks as fag applies to all gay men (as dyke applies to all gay women). Those are bigoted terms when used as slurs by people who are not among those groups.

[Oeditpus Rex]

41. The degree of any insult depends on how it's taken

And that's really what this thread's all about, isn't it? Viewpoints, assumptions and generalizations.

I try to have more than one of the former and avoid the latter.

[Misunderestimator]

42. This thread is about someone using a bigoted term insulting to homosexuals

to insult someone. Some things can be taken at face value.

[Oeditpus Rex]

45. If one chooses to take them as such, yes

I choose not to.

[Misunderestimator]

46. You choose not to take n***** and fag as bigoted insults?

Then, yeah, we definitely disagree on this. I think our chat has run its course. :hi:

[Oeditpus Rex]

47. I wish not to make generalized condemnations

based on the use of a word, no matter how vile.

[foreigncorrespondent]

63. That is your choice...

...but answer me this, are you gay?

[Sapphocrat]

71. Gee, Oed, you really got me thinking with that.

"Rabies" is the number-one definition of "hydrophobia" in Merriam-Webster's, despite the fact that hydrophobia is technically only one symptom of the disease:

Main Entry: hy·dro·pho·bia
Pronunciation: "hI-dr&-'fO-bE-&
Function: noun
Etymology: Late Latin, from Greek, from hydr- + -phobia -phobia
1 : RABIES
2 : a morbid dread of water

Nevertheless, I can't prove that "hydrophobia" is a perfectly acceptable synonym for "rabies," since I can't prove that a mad dog frothing at the mouth is actually afraid of water, has contempt for water, is averse to water, discriminates against water or is prejudiced against water.

So I guess a dog can be rabid, but that doesn't mean it's hydrophobic. :eyes:

[Duncan Grant]

50. I think this sums up the argument nicely.

Perhaps we can parse "homophobia" next? ;) :hi:

[Duncan Grant]

37. Hi Neighbor.

I said nothing about homophobia.

My own personal opinion is that "Fag" is used in order to demean and insult (also to emasculate -- but that's another thread). Why would he ever choose the word "Fag"?

What a f*cking breeder. :sarcasm:

[Oeditpus Rex]

39. Because it's something little boys do

And ballplayers are little boys in men's bodies.

[Duncan Grant]

43. It's time for them to grow up.

I think you offer an interesting observation but it doesn't excuse the behavior. Young boys need to be mentored -- and sometimes disciplined.

It was an offensive choice of words and an inept apology.

[Oeditpus Rex]

44. Sure, it's time

It's long past time.

Tell society to stop deifying athletes and treat them as flawed humans. Maybe if they're held to the same standards as the rest of us, they'll be forced to grow up.

[Duncan Grant]

48. So why all the hair-splitting regarding the offensiveness of "Fag"?

Would anyone argue that Kike, Wop, Gook, Nigger, Hajii, Breeder, WetBack, etc. is an acceptable insult? Had any of those word choices been used in this example, would anyone split-hairs about how the epithet does not belie some underlying bigotry? I'm simply unwilling to accept that.

Telling gay people that it's not a homophobic word choice - when gay people say it is - seems insensitive at best.

[Oeditpus Rex]

49. I didn't say it *wasn't* homophobic

I said it doesn't prove Guillen is homophobic. It might prove he's an insensitive idiot, but there're a lot of insensitive idiots who aren't homophobes, bigots or anything else.

I'm just not willing to jump to the conclusion that Guillen is anything based on one word he used in anger.

Oh — and I've never bred anything.

[Duncan Grant]

51. Proof? This need for proof lands like an excuse, imho.

I'm not interested in proving anything. It appears to me that this requirement for proof is an attempt to defend this insensitive idiot from any responsibility for his actions. I'm not saying that's your intent - but that's how it lands on my ears.

It's clear to me that anyone who would choose "Fag" and then offer up such an impotent apology is obviously homophobic. He may not be of the Fred Phelps variety but if he's willing to use the word "Fag" to express contempt for others, then I'm willing to assume he's no advocate for my community. That's proof enough for me of his true intent.

[Oeditpus Rex]

52. 'That's proof enough for me'

Funny — the KKK et al said the same thing when they lynched black people.

[Duncan Grant]

53. Oh please, Oeditpus Rex.

By any definition, that was a stretch.

Honestly, I don't understand why this argument is so intractable or why you've chosen to degenerate this exchange to such a level.

What's the real issue here? Is this guy someone who you've previously admired? Is there some dissonance about his words vs. his actions? I don't get it.

[Oeditpus Rex]

54. You mean by *your* definition

That's what you and MisU have been doing throughout this thread — generalizing. And you come down on me because I refuse to do it, or to make assumptions.

I've known Ozzie Guillen only as a name in a batting order. Until now, I've had no opinion of him whatsoever except perhaps in a few moments after he hurt the Dodgers with a hit or fielding play. As such, I will not draw the conclusion that he's a "bigoted homophobe" based solely on this incident. I need more evidence than that to judge someone. Yet, I come under your fire for this.

I'm simply at a loss to understand an open mind being a bad thing.

Fuck it. This is going nowhere. This thread is hidden. If you wish to be the same as those you fight, go ahead. It's none of my affair.

[Duncan Grant]

55. Can I assume you'd be open-minded if he used a different epithet?

Once again, this begs the question: Would you be as open-minded to racial (or other) epithets? Please note that I've tried to extend to you nothing but civility and respect - I'm disappointed you couldn't do likewise. :shrug:

Thanks for the asinine accusation that my position is equivalent to a close-minded, judgmental racist. That was helpful.

Nice strategy, btw. Walk away, hide the thread, unable or unwilling to empathize with gay people (but willing to add insult to injury).

What a pity, that more often than not, this is the level of discourse regarding GLBT issues at DU. :wtf:

edit: "that"

[Misunderestimator]

57. Generalizing? How is it generalizing to say that one man who used a slur

against gay men to insult someone is using homophobic, bigoted language? How on earth is that generalizing? It would be generalizing to say that all sports managers are bigoted because of this one man's bigotry. Instead we are talking about this one man. That is not generalizing.

I don't understand how you don't understand that his use of the term "fag" is bigoted and homophobic... especially given all the gay people on this thread telling you how insulting it is. That's flabbergasting.

[foreigncorrespondent]

64. Well it seems ESPN thinks it is homophobic!

They are asking the question: Should Ozzie Guillen be suspended for using a homophobic slur in reference to Chicago Sun-Times columnist Jay Mariotti?

Link: http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/sportsnation/polling?event_id=2235

[Heidi]

61. That's a good idea.

That's why I hold Mr. Gullien responsible for using hate speech, and its why I hold progressives who defend hate speech responsible for their behavior. Mr. Gullien couldn't think of anything worse to say about the reporter than "fag"? Is really he that terribly inaticulate, a homophobe, or some of each?

[kwolf68]

25. News Report

GAY COMMUNITY IS OFFENDED AT OZZIE GUILLEN'S COMMENTS.

"We don't want the sonofabitch either", says Gay Activists.


Ozzie is a loose cannon, and is very often a real tool, but Jay Mariotti is a hack, and is a shock-journalist in that he lashes out at everything that is the White Sox.

He wrote a nasty piece after the Barrett/AJ flare-up when the Cubs and Sox got into that fight blaming EVERYTHING about the incident on AJ and not the hot-headed Barrett, who has ALSO had his share of run-ins with other players (Roy Oswaldt, Dave Roberts).

Mariotti trashes AJ Pierzinski when Cubs players themselves said the play was a clean play. Ozzie takes up for his players and they love him for that. Any wonder why that team is looking mightly poised to a repeat?....especially after the total ass whipping they gave to a very good Cardinal team.

If Boston doesn't stop them....NO ONE WILL and its a large part because of Ozzie.

[bumblebee1]

56. Whether he likes it or not,

Ozzie Guillen is a public figure. He's got to watch what he says and does.

[Sapphocrat]

69. Oh, you didn't get the memo?

Sports figures get special dispensation, no matter how vile their anti-gay remarks:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=221&topic_id=26993

'Cause they're... 'Cause... 'Cause they're sports figures, see? Which makes them above reproach. :sarcasm:

[WeRQ4U]

58. Ozzie's a sociopath.

But he's a good manager and his team wins ballgames. It's a combination that's found quite often in professional sports.

[Maven]

66. What a seriously depressing thread. I'm astounded.

I'm kicking for much the same reason as 94114SF.

Happy Pride, everyone.

[Heidi]

67. Don't you dare feel bummed out or ever give up, HK.

:hug:

[Maven]

68. Not on your life. And

thanks. :hug: