Sometimes I feel like I don't fit in here.

[Drunken Irishman]

I grew up in an Irish Catholic family. A very liberal Irish Catholic family, to be exact. My grandparents were FDR Democrats and my mother idolizes JFK. So much so, in fact, we still have a photo of him, next to Pope John Paul II, in our living room. We are also a very religious family, that goes to church nearly every Sunday and actually believes in what the Catholic Church teaches. My grandparents are buried in the Catholic cemetery, we often have priests over for dinner and my mother is very involved in our local parish. That has not impacted one bit my parents' or grandparents' political thoughts over the years.

Yet I can't help but see so much anti-Catholic and anti-religious hatred on DU and that makes me wonder if I'm even a good liberal for being a person of faith. See, I always thought -- before posting here -- that my religion was the reason I happened to believe in the liberal ideology. I was always taught that you should help the poor, respect those that were different from you and believe in peaceful actions over those of hate. I have, to the best of my ability, done just that. I don't hate, I never have. I do not hate Republicans, I do not hate the lowest of the low, because in my heart, I do believe they are all children of God and because of that, no matter how much they have sinned, they still are human beings. Human beings that for whatever reason have strayed from the good. Which is why I get so infuriated when I see the likes of Pat Robertson discussing openly hatred toward gays and Muslims. I truly believe those people who use hate in the context of God's words, are not truly religious at all.

I remember sitting down with Salt Lake's former Bishop George Niederauer -- currently the Archbishop of San Francisco. We discussed a wide variety of issues, but the main one was the fact he, along with priests from the Salt Lake dioceses, came out in opposition of Utah banning same sex marriage. He said that while he didn't condone homosexuality, he understood that every person, no matter how pure they may seem, sins. Their sins are no worse than his own and that they were still the sons and daughters of God. He could not, in good conscience, condone the hatred of these individuals, even if he did not agree with their lifestyle. When he was appointed the Archbishop of San Francisco by Pope Benedict, many conservative Catholics took offense to this. Mostly because he was seen as being pro-gay. Prior to arriving in Salt Lake, he had his own parish in West Hollywood, where he often welcomed gay men and women, many of whom were infected with HIV.

When I see anti-Catholic or anti-religious posts here, I can't help but want to scream because of people like my grandparents, my mother and George Niederauer. Not every person of faith is evil and not every person of faith is conservative. Many Catholics, especially Irish Catholics, are liberal and support the Democratic Party. I guess I just wanted to let some of you know that many people believe in the Catholic Church, but also believe in the liberal political ideology. In fact, I would wager many Catholics, especially on the issues of welfare and social programs, are far more supportive of Democratic ideals than they are Republican.

[Bicoastal]

1. Some people here forget it IS possible to be religious...

...without believing every single the thing the fundamentalist fanatics on TV are saying.

I wish those people would get a clue, don't you? Or at least, learn to be a little fucking sensitive.

[Drunken Irishman]

2. It's kinda funny that many here love Dennis Kucinich, but forget he's Catholic.

Now I don't know whether Kucinich attends church every Sunday, but I do remember a time when he was completely against abortion because of his religious beliefs. Even though he has changed, I have a strong feeling Kucinich is still a very good Catholic and that's why he's driven by his peaceful beliefs. As was Kerry in 2004.

[againes654]

23. GD has been going at it over Kucinich's abortion stance

LOL

[Drunken Irishman]

26. I'm kinda trying to stay out of GD until the primaries are over.

Did Kucinich change again? Or is this based on his past beliefs?

[opiate69]

40. We don't "forget" he's Catholic..

it's that he doesn't seem to feel the need to remind us of that fact and pander to all the other Catholics on a constant basis... if only they all were that humble and secure in their faiths.

[rakeeb]

42. first off, thank you for taking up my first choice

for a name, (though I am a Scot, and could likely drink you and yours under the table while still typing :beer:)
Regarding the OP, "very (big "C") Catholic" defined by those I drink with and rightly bag on as a devout (small "l") lutheran would argue that they go to mass every Sunday and squeeze in a mostly once a week weekday mass.
And you do belong here, although I would say that noone "belongs" in GD when they are sober.

[Inchworm]

3. Fuckin A you belong here

I dont want in a place with one mind. Where does that lead?

So.. I may spew some anti-religion rarely... but I'm just.

me :)

:hi:

[Drunken Irishman]

5. Thanks!

And don't get me wrong, I get upset with some religious folks too. But I also understand that not every religious person is like the one I am mad at.

I just think we shouldn't be so quick to attack someone because they actually have some faith. Just like I don't think it's good to go around and attack people because they don't.

[alphafemale]

4. Liberal religious people need to step up and seize back what is good and pure.

I'm a Unitarian Universalist (UU) and a few years ago a British UU spoke at church I was attending.

He said he had been confused by the US UU's aversion to self-identify with Christianity.

Then, he said, he turned on his TV in the US on a Sunday morning...and he understood.

[Drunken Irishman]

7. I agree.

And it isn't so much the Catholics, as it is the fundamentalist religions that spawned from the anti-New Deal, racist Republicans. However, I think the evangelicals are slowly dwindling because people are tired of their divisive shit. The whole irony in all of this is that religion shouldn't be about dividing, yet that's exactly what it has done here in America.

[MissHoneychurch]

6. Thank you for your post

while I myself am not religious at all I truly believe that every person has the right to believe or not believe, no matter what the religion is. For me religion is private and has nothing to do whatsoever in politics. And it makes me sick to see religion used for wars and decisions. And I am meaning ALL religions. Religion is fine, as long as it doesn't become fundamental.

You belong here. DU needs people like you.

[Drunken Irishman]

8. What a coincidence, an article in today's Deseret News about Niederauer angering conservatives

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695218041,00.html

[murielm99]

9. We need you here.

There are indeed many anti-religious posts here. Some of it is because DUers are expressing a backlash against the religious right. The televangelists, mega-church pastors and people like Dobson have done a great deal of harm to our country and to Christianity as a whole. Often, when people say they are Christian, they are immediately identified with that group. It is not fair, but we often have to qualify that we are liberal Christians.

Some of the anti-religious posts are from atheists or agnostics who don't have many other places to express themselves. They have been discriminated against by Christians, so they vent in one of the few places that allows it.

We have to take back our faith from the religious right. That will not be easy. Jimmy Carter has spoken out. So has Jim Wallis.

You have every right to defend yourself here. Mostly, I ignore it and try to have a thick skin. (But I am civil to the Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons who come to my door, too). And, I post occasionally in the Christian Liberals forum. Please check it out.

[some guy]

10. You do belong here.

Part of the problem you see is due to a general anonymity that allows people to feel they can post anything and not be held accountable.

Part of the problem you see is due to people who come here specifically to be disruptive.

Part of the problem you see is due to some people who call themselves Christian arrogating to themselves the right to define what it means to be Christian (or even human), and the backlash (from here) against that by people who have been deemed less-than-worthy by those so-called Christians. That is also the same divisiveness-by-design the right uses to maintain power by keeping the majority from coalescing around their shared mutual interests, which if recognized would lead to the demise of conservatism.

Moral degenerates. Baby-killers. The Catholic church, or at least some of the highly-placed members of the Church, are not above throwing those types of accusations at people who post here. Why wouldn't we feel attacked, and desirous of venting our anger?

Just as you read things here that make you feel like lashing out at the poster who wrote it, people here read things and feel like lashing out at the person or organization who was reported to have said things we find offensive.

For myself, the only reason I don't post a lot of hate-filled rhetoric, is that if I get truly angry, I can't type, so it would come out as gibberish. By the time I get control of my anger and am able to type, I've also got control of my reason too.

:hi:

[TreasonousBastard]

11. For some reason "Democratic" Underground has forgotten...

about the Irish Catholics in New York, Boston, and other places that were a backbone of the Democratic Pasty for so many years. Without them, there might be no Democratic Party as we know it.

I don't mean to defend Tammany Hall, but within that morass of Democratic big-city politics was the germ of humanity that was always at the core of the Catholic Church.

I'm no big defender of the Catholic church, either, and it has much to answer for, but every time I see it bashed I can't help but think of how little the bashers really know of the basic, intrinsic decency of the individual Catholics out there and the work the Church has done for peace and charity.

[PassingFair]

45. The Catholic Church here in Michigan spent FIVE MILLION

to rally support to AMEND our state constitution to
make same sex marriage ILLEGAL.

The local BISHOP held candlelight "vigils" against the "gays".

I can't FATHOM why anyone would denounce the politics of the Catholic Church
on a Democratic message board.

:crazy:

[CreekDog]

58. And the Catholic Church tried mightily to stop the Iraq War

And fights the death penalty in our country.

So, I understand what you are saying, but they are an ally in many good causes.

[PassingFair]

63. I don't remember the Cardinals marching on Washington....

There is a Bishop here by the name of Gumbleton that I have
the UTMOST respect for; by and large, the Catholic Church
around here was pretty silent, or ACTUALLY supported the
bombings.

Some of my friends and relatives left their parishes in
the lead up to the war, and a couple of them have NOT gone
back.

[CreekDog]

67. I guess you don't count the Pope

Who made countless statements prior to the war

[PassingFair]

69. I said "around here".

I well remember when the Pope came down emphatically
AGAINST the war, you are right there!

He said something like "Go into Iraq and you go without God",
or something equally dramatic.

When I mentioned it to local Catholics as an anti-war
argument, they shrugged it off as
the musings of an old man.

There are liberal Catholic churches around here, but they
are in the minority.

[lligrd]

12. Born And Raised Catholic Here

In fact, my uncle is a priest and my father (his younger brother) went to the seminary (but was not invited to return). My problem is not with what the people on DU say or think about religion but with the theft (and desecration) of the right (including the Pope) with it.

BTW, if the Pope is "pro-gay" (whatever that means) and not anti-women, he certainly hasn't done a thing to show it since he became Pope. I, as an individual and Christian, will not let either the pResident or the pOpe off the hook when I think they are inhumane and wrong.

[Jamastiene]

13. I understand.

We GLBT people on here often feel put off too when the latest "(insert recently caught Republican child molester's name here) is gay" posts pop up. It's not at all funny to us when that happens either, because the simple act of opening a dictionary would prove that the words "gay" and "pedophile" have two very distinct and definitely different meanings, but we have to endure it anyhow.

I would imagine that the Liberal Christian community must feel exactly the same way at times. To be lumped in with the bad guys, unnecessarily, day in and day out would make someone feel entirely lost and alone.

Don't worry though. The best Christians I have ever met were the most understanding and compassionate people. They took time up with me when I first got here. I had a real chip on my shoulder about Christianity altogether. I didn't know there were Christians who didn't hate gay people. I totally let some people have it too. One or two of the liberal Christians here took the time with me to let me get my frustration out and actually ended up on my buddies list and changed my mind.

So a little patience can go a long way toward bridging the divide. You have to be the bigger person and give those who smite you, your ear and your compassion. That helps them overcome their pain and hurt. Once they see you aren't one of the hateful right wing type Christians, AND that not all Christians are short tempered, impatient, and judgmental, they'll be changed for the better and you'll feel better in the process.

That's the secret to the whole thing. That's the secret in dealing with that type of predicament. You can be the bigger person and hold them up in their weakness and pain and pull them out of their misery. Then both you and they will have a deeper understanding of one another and maybe even make friends after that. That's the secret.

Cheers.

[datasuspect]

14. sometimes it helps to realize

that criticizing religion is NOT the same as bashing, hating, or being anti religion. whatever has happened in this country that the RW has hijacked so much thought? you CAN discuss religion and even critique it and not be bashing it. a faith that is unassailable seems pretty weak.

and sometimes, sacrilege is just plain funny. ask monty python.

[caty]

15. Being a liberal

means being willing to stand up for the rights of others. A lot of people have suffered under our present government. Since the right wing keeps throwing their version of christianity in our faces, a lot of people have turned against religion. Hopefully, this will change in the future. I am a Humanist, but I would never think less of someone who was not. I do think less of "christians" who say that anyone who does not believe in their form of christianity is not patriotic or is a second class citizen.

[johnnie]

16. You belong here as much as anybody

One of the main reasons why there are so many people who bash religion here is because many of them have that "gang mentality". It goes like this, science is equated to intelligence, people want to be "intelligent", people think that if they side with the scientists they are as intelligent as those scientists. Most of the time, they aren't.

So when you have a gang of wanna-be intellects, and someone starts on the religion bashing, they all join in the bashing because they then become that intellect that they wanna be.

I have pretty much my own sense of spirituality, and I also believe that it can be good for a person, but I don't care what other people want to believe. That is up to each person and there is no reason for me to question that part of their being. As long as you aren't hurting people, stick to your faith and screw the "intellects".

[La Lioness Priyanka]

17. sometimes i feel like i dont belong here because i dont hate one religion

and dont believe that any one religion is BETTER than another.

i think all religion is equally susceptible to perversity.

[Burma Jones]

18. I've been here awhile and don't think the anti-religion opinions are

in the majority. There are all sorts of people here and you shouldn't be intimidated by those that, with great anonymous vigor, hate on religion. You and they have the same rights to speech and DU accommodates both sides of that debate.

If you're attacked for your faith, wear it as a badge of honor.

[Drunken Irishman]

20. I don't think they're in the majority, either.

In fact, it's probably a very vocal minority. It's just they seem to be more prominent. And I'm not talking about criticizing religion, rather attacking every person that expresses the thought of believing in God.

[Burma Jones]

24. Sometimes you have to endure offense to enjoy free speech

And some people here believe that belief in God - any God - is terribly irrational yet used as an excuse for all sorts of actions that have far reaching effects.

Me, I believe in God, but would really hate to see those that don't keep their mouths shut or feel like they have to keep their mouths shut. Due to millennia of torturing and murdering unbelievers, I can see why they're often uncivil about the subject.

I use the Ignore feature for people I find particularly offensive. It's empty today.

[hedgehog]

19. You heathen! What happened to your picture of John XXIII?

Irish Catholic here, too, whatever Irish Catholic means anymore! I'm from your branch of the tribe, I think. Just remember, some criticize the Church out of hate, some criticize it out of love. I get mad at my Church and at my party and country when I see them abandoning core principles of love and justice for all. Check out Andrew Greeley's web page. He's spent the last 30 some years reminding the Democratic Party about its Catholic base, and he's got the data to back him up.

[Drunken Irishman]

21. My mom loves Andrew Greeley.

I will always criticize the Church when I see they're straying down the wrong path. But I don't see why we have to constantly hate on religion. Not every religious person is a Pat Robertson clone and I just do not like being lumped in with his clan.

[Danger Mouse]

22. I'm an Irish protestant...your mortal enemy =P

But seriously, as a liberal Christian on DU, I've encountered some rude and hateful people, but a lot of understanding, accepting, and kind people as well.
You're in the right place. Ignore the haters. :pals:

[Drunken Irishman]

25. Even worse if you're an orange. ;)

[REP]

43. Much, Much Worse -

I'm a direct descendant of Findlay Ewing.

[Colorado Progressive]

27. Most of the Catholics I know are liberal.

I don't know why there is so much anti-religion stuff on here either.

[CreekDog]

61. I'm in South San Fran, nearly all Catholic and nearly all Democrats

73% for Kerry in 2004.

So, most of the Catholics I know are liberal. Before the election in 2005, the mass before the election, the sermon included the line to "vote for social justice".

They believe that means helping the weak and powerless (the poor)
But also that it means helping the unborn from abortions

That's what's going on.

[hfojvt]

28. you just got here

and you are already more popular than I am. :P

I have not notice alot of Catholic bashing lately. I think the hatred is more constant. I started tracking religion-bashing back in June or so, and have not added to my collection lately. Alot of it is confined to the R/T sub-forum. Hatred, though, is more of a regular thing.

As far as fitting in, you can always be a barely tolerated minority.

[FooFootheSnoo]

29. I am Irish Catholic too!

I was even born on St. Paddy's day!! My family is not as devout as yours, but I still believe the Catholic church and it's teachings on social justice had a large part in the development of my liberal point of view. Pat Robertson infuriates me too.

Don't let the anti-religious rants bother you. I ignore it. It can be aggravating at times, but try not to take it personally. A lot of people generalize. I always assume they mean "fundamentalist" when they say "Christian".

[Drunken Irishman]

32. Good to hear!

And an Irish cheer for you. :)

[tigereye]

30. Irish Catholic here

I was raised in a very progressive and tolerant way/home, and I don't really understand the conservative style that the church now seems to espouse.

Seems like the Dorothy Day or Berrigan- style approach has disappeared somewhere.

[bluethruandthru]

31. It's unfortunate

that the wingnut Christian fundamentalists have corrupted religion. They present themselves as "moral" and "righteous" and have largely succeeded in becoming the face of religion in America. But they aren't! They aren't even real Christians. They are closed minded, judgemental haters.
Their behavior has turned so many people off to religion of any kind...and I think that dislike and distrust of all things "religious" sometimes shows up here.

Hang around... being here can't be any tougher than being a non-mormon in Utah! I should know...I grew up there! :hi:

[Drunken Irishman]

33. Yes, being a non-Mormon in Utah is extremely difficult.

Luckily, Salt Lake is far more open than the rest of the state.

What gets me is how many people here will blindly support Mitt Romney because he's LDS. I have no problem with voting for an LDS candidate, however, Romney is the biggest empty suit I have ever seen. Yet they hold him up on a pedestal here, as if he's their savior. I guess kinda like Catholics did with Al Smith in the 30s and JFK in the 60s. Except at least those two stood for something and weren't constantly flip-flopping.

[bluethruandthru]

35. There are alot of sheep in Utah..

four legged and two legged.
I remember asking a co-worker in Utah who she was voting for. She said "Whoever my husband tells me to". ACK!

[BlueJazz]

34. I'm an Atheist but......

I'm very happy you are here and I welcome your input (s) to ALL subjects. :)

[applegrove]

36. You certainly are walking the walk. That makes you a great DUer.

I see mostly anger on the DU re: George Bush. And it is deserved. What would one do with your rightful anger if you couldn't direct it at the person whose actions have ruined your country and your name. And keeps repeating the actions again and again. Anger has a place. Perhaps not in your life but for many people it is a justified feeling and hate is the end result. Politics is personal. What your government does in your name is personal.

We are all different and have different capacitiese for things. That is what the DU has taught me.

[Generic Brad]

37. Ironic. I have a similar background but feel the opposite

After 911 my entire family gave up their liberal roots and told me to become Republican or go to hell. Literally.

My church experience since 2000 has been extremely negative. My parish purged the liberals or bullied them into being conservatives on the surface. My local parish bans people who wear anything with a rainbow. We are not welcomed and have been driven away.

[Drunken Irishman]

39. I'm sorry to hear that.

I'm sure there are a lot of Catholics who have turned rightward and it really is a shame. Mostly because they compromise their true values for an anti-homosexual, anti-gay agenda. Well these Catholics need to realize that there are far more issues out there than just gays and abortionists. Like poverty, war, crime, greed, hate and bigotry.

[Generic Brad]

50. I appreciate the understanding

I certainly understand that my individual experience is just that - the experience of one individual. I still believe that the vast majority of Catholics and Christians in this country are good people.

[puerco-bellies]

38. Beautiful post

Just like we all have sinned, we also all have faults that we are blind too. In faith you forgive, in here you belong.

[Fire Walk With Me]

41. Just when I decide that most people are hopeless, I find words like this.

Thank you DI. Spirituality is the realization of religious intent. As you said, treating all as God's children equally, giving alms, helping the sick and the poor... I'm currently not in a spiritual community and it quickly becomes easy to forget that there are those who believe and act upon their beliefs. I fall too quickly into lament and pessimism.

Thanks for helping change that, at least for tonight. :)

[yellowdogintexas]

44. hey everybody belongs here, it is after all a Democratic Group

we are like Methodists, ( I am also a Methodist) we have a big tent and everybody is welcome.

Y'All Come!


seriously I like your post.

I hate the fact that Falwell, Robertson, TV church, Mega church neo fascist ultra right wing conservative holier than thou religionists have just ruined the general perception of what gentle Christians really are all about.

Some of the bestest fightingest most gung ho radical liberals have been quite faithful...lots of good Catholics, Methodists, etc there.


Flaming Liberal, Faithful Methodist ,treehugging dogooder here!!!!


O8) :toast: :thumbsup: :hi: :kick: :pals: :yourock:

[Arugula Latte]

46. Defend Catholiciism if you will, but the "liberal' bishop you defend

still thinks homosexuality is a "sin." Why? A silly book written hundreds upon hundreds of years ago, and the Chruch's need to control people they consider as lesser, such as gays and women.

on edit: I'm not trying to be an asshole. Of course you're entitled to contribute your opinion as am I entitled to contribute mine, but I am not going to stop pointing out the damage and hurt that religion frequently inflicts on society just as the religious people are not going to stop sticking up for their beliefs.

[Drunken Irishman]

47. He also believes divorce is a sin and premarital sex.

I'm sure there are priests out there who do not believe with him. He just sees this sin as no different than any other sin a person would commit. I, though, disagree with him and told him why I disagreed with that view. He was very cordial and said he could definitely see my point.

But I'll tell you, the acceptance of some priests toward homosexuality is far better than it was 20 or 30 years ago. It'll be interesting to see where the Church stands 20 or 30 years from now.

[MedleyMisty]

48. Hmm - give an example of the type of post you're talking about

Generally it's more criticism of the religious right than all religion, and when it is criticism of all religion it's not saying that all people who believe in religion are evil. It's just saying that religion is holding us back as a species - which is quite logical when you look at world events and see a lot more abuse and conflict and death based on religious beliefs than anything good. We need critical thinking, not blind unthinking hatred. That's not saying anything personal about anyone. It's just talking about concepts. You are not your beliefs and criticism of the concept of religious belief is not criticism of you personally.

Of course there'll be people who take it too far.

Here's an example. I have always lived in the South. If people want to discuss racism sanely and calmly as a concept and with critical thinking, I'm all up for it. I hate prejudice with every bone in my body and I will be one of the most extreme voices on the side of equality in the discussion - umm, does it give me any street cred if I'm white and have been asked on another forum if I was African American by an African American person after posting about racism, because I "got it"?

But if all you want to do is show nasty prejudice and bigotry towards everyone who happens to live in the South and bash us all as fat white male racist Republican knuckle dragging NASCAR fans, I'm going to refute you and then put you on my ignore list.

There's a difference between discussion and debate and outright bashing.

Reading over your OP - many of us believe as you do without religion to back it up. I rejected religion at the age of six - I'd read the Children's Bible before then and it had made me feel weird and uncomfortable because so much of the stuff in it wasn't physically possible and the God dude was rather mean, and then in first grade we learned about geological periods and I compared seven days to billions of years and that was it.

So maybe that's another part of it - those of us who criticize religion came to our positions on compassion and love and peace without it, so we don't really think about people who believe in compassion and love and peace because of it. Especially when the public face of religion in the US is all about selfishness and greed and hate and war.

There's a couple of threads on the religion/theology board about recent studies showing that young Americans are turning away from Christianity because of that public face. I'm 26, so I think I fit in at the older end of that. I have met a very few Christians who seem to actually believe in what Jesus said, but most of my experience with Christianity is one of hate and judgement. So yeah, I'm going to have a negative view of the concept. That has nothing to do with having a negative view of you as a person. From your posts, I'd say you're a great person and if we ever met in real life I hope we would be friends.

So to sum up - you belong here, and the ignore button is your friend when it comes to the bashers.

[Kansas Wyatt]

49. What you see is mostly the backlash of the 'Christian' hi-jacking of our gov't

Oh, and you would be surprised how many fundies think that Catholics are going to Hell, because they are not real 'Christians.' Yes, many of them truly believe that, along with thinking they have a moral superiority over Catholics.

[Joey Liberal]

51. You can thank the Catholic League

The Catholics (and I came from an Irish/Catholic family) have become too political. To me, Catholic now equals Right Wing Wacko.

[Skittles]

52. what you put up is nothing compared to those of us who put up with relgion

PERIOD

[Drunken Irishman]

56. I'd wager you're wrong.

Because I put up with it from both sides. I hear I'm not a good Christian because I'm liberal and then I get thrown under the bus by some liberals because I am religious. I also live in Utah, where I was constantly told growing up that I would not make it into heaven because I was a Catholic and not a Mormon. Or that I would never see my mom and dad in the afterlife because we didn't accept the word of their gospel. Of course then there was the many times I was told some friends couldn't hang out with me after their parents found out I wasn't Mormon. DO you know how hard it was trying to find kids to hang out with because I wasn't Mormon, but Catholic instead? They actually, I kid you not, were more accepting to non-religious people than they were to my family.

You'd be surprised how bigotry can go both ways.

[Skittles]

66. no way

I have had to put up with religious crap my entire life and there is no escaping it...anyways, your problem seems to be UTAH, not relgion-bashing

[Drunken Irishman]

71. It's still religious bashing.

When it's one religion attacking me for what I believe, no? I still put up with it.

[GirlinContempt]

75. How do you know?

[WileEcoyote]

53. The tent could be bigger

Like there are certain matters i usually won't bring up. Not major issues compared to the failure of Conservatism. lack of health care and the two failed war/occupations.

One of my "non Liberal" views is that men really get screwed by the institution of marriage. We end up paying a whole ton of our significant others bills and then she leaves us taking the house, the car and the kids. the courts are stacked terribly against us.

We're the original "entitlement program". I've got a wastrel of a female room mate who simply won't look for a job, eats my food and claims "abuse abuse abuse" whenever I mildly remind her that I'm collapsing under the weight of her living expenses.

I don't want to evict her and leave her homeless but she simply is incapable of seeing a life where some man isn't taking care of her. She is expected to leave at the end of this month. It's killing me financially.

Then my last wife took the house away, sold it when the market was low and blames me for not providing enough help with the two kids in college. Incredible.

Yet these kind of very true posts will always be "greeted" (here on D/Y) with howls of "Sexism" "prejudice" or "male chauvinist pig" etc.

Fact: No woman has ever bought me a car, paid most of my rent or mortgage, the gas and electric bill, put me through school, and too many other fringe benefits to even list here.

The problem isn't so much "fixing" the females. It is preventing my fellow men from falling into the trap.

Are ALL women like this? Certainly not. And we should help them get equal pay for equal work, the right to choose what goes on in their bodies, pre natal care for their kids etc. etc.

But we men need to protect ourselves from the way the system is rigged against us in relationships.

[BlueIris]

54. I know how you feel, honey. DU has so many hateful posters these days.

And I think it's hard being a liberal, not to mention a liberal Catholic, anywhere. Because even the Democrats have shunned liberalism, and the rampant anti-Catholicism in America is still one of this country's least-discussed dirty little secrets.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

55. You must always make the distinction between criticizing religion and criticizing believers.

I criticize religion all the time, because to me it is completely nonsensical and possibly dangerous, suppressing logical thinking in favor of feel-good lies that can spread division and terrible magical thinking. I try not to criticize the people who believe in it--calling them "stupid," "fairy-tale believers," etc.--because that is counterproductive. People have a hard time separating criticism of the idea with criticism of the people who believe it, and that is true with all ideas, not just religious ones.

Honestly, the taboo on criticizing religion is old, and it is not particularly respected here at DU--plenty of people will criticize religion, and there are many things to criticize, whether it's in Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, anything, or just to do with organized religion in general. What people need to look out for is personal attacks. Saying "Christianity is largely illogical" is not a personal attack--a sweeping generalization, perhaps, if not backed up with reasoning, but not a personal attack unless you somehow purport to be Christianity in its entirety. Saying "Christians are crazy fairty-tale-believing bastards" is more of a personal attack. Bear up with the first instance--it's your faith to defend, and no idea, especially the religious, should be safe from debate and criticism--and save the righteous indignation for the second instance.

[Drunken Irishman]

60. I support criticizing religion.

I criticize it, as well. However, it seems every time there is a post here that deals with Catholicism, in any way (whether it's even pro-liberal), people use it as a source to attack the Catholic Church and its followers. What disgusts me the most is the constant harping on the whole pedophilia thing. Yeah, there are some Catholics that deserve that scorn, but not every Catholic is a pedophile. I guess I just tire of people automatically assuming someone is a religious nut because they actually believe in God. Criticizing is important, but attacking for the sake of attacking? It just gets old.

I remember when Pope Benedict discussed Global Warming, calling it a moral issues. Instead of actually agreeing with him, many posters were content with just attacking the Catholic Church. And it isn't just religious posts, either. I see the same type of issues in gay themed posts, death posts (I truly do not like reading people actually content when a Republican dies) and other hot button issues that are often talked about here.

I truly believe there is a time and place for debate. But I don't understand why every post, even positive, has to degenerate into an attack on Christianity or the Catholic Church. Especially when it has nothing to do with that topic. Now if the Pope comes out and blasts gays (like he's done), I have no problem calling him on it. But remember, many Catholics are indeed gay and many Catholics do indeed support gay marriage. We're not all one voice and we definitely don't like to be clumped together with a few bad seeds. Nothing is worse than the logic that since one Catholic is bad, all Catholics are bad. Just like when a liberal fucks up, we don't go around saying all liberals are fuck ups.

Now Republicans...well I think we can all agree they are. ;)

[WritingIsMyReligion]

68. If people are dragging religion into a mix that has nothing to do with religion, that's just dumb.

Alert for sure on it. Like I said, I personally try not to lump all the religious people together and I certainly try not to call them stupid or idiotic, or bring up religion where it's not being dicussed. I know the same cannot be said for everyone here. A lot of the anti-/non-religious are extremely fed up with the religious state of affairs in this country and how far too many people are quite literally ostracized from areas for not believing, as if an atheist were any more immoral than the rest of the world. That doesn't excuse complete rudeness or stupidity on their parts, but it does explain how and why they think what they think. :shrug:

:hi:

[CreekDog]

57. I'm a lot like you and I've noticed what you notice

But you are not alone, perhaps outnumbered but not alone.

And you are a liberal and there are many liberals like you.

So, take heart, keep your chin up and stick around, we need you here.

[Redstone]

59. Well, the drunken part works, even if the other doesn't. So relax.

Redstone

[Pushed To The Left]

62. There are a lot of very religious people who are very progressive

I'm more spiritual than religious myself (though I do pray a lot), but it bothers me to see prejudice against any religious group just as much as it bothers me to see prejudice against non-religious people. I think the religious right is to blame for a lot of this. They try to send a message that their hardcore right-wing views are synonymous with real religion, and that causes religion to get a bad rap with some people.

I think most DUers will agree that you'll fit in just fine here and we are glad you are here! :hug:

[zippy890]

64. "not every person of faith is evil"

I've been at DU for 3 years and have NEVER seen any post
that would even remotely resemble that description ... that 'every person of faith is evil'

that is an absurd statement with no basis in reality.

[Drunken Irishman]

65. You're right.

They don't say every person of faith is evil, but they hint at it. I'm not alone in my thoughts. Sorry, it just is what it is. There are few here that don't seem to take anyone seriously if they happen to be religious.

[skyblue]

70. anti-Catholic Democrats are a FRINGE Group here!!!

I tend to disagree vehemently with Catholics, but I have no problem with the groups like the Catholic Worker and other liberal groups within the Catholic church.

For me in particular the Catholic Church and its adherents are everywhere. Catholic doctrine and its leaders need to be questioned if that is what society believes in to such a large extent. I never question Catholics on their beliefs in public. I come real close to losing friends that way because I have such a problem with Catholic doctrine and its leaders.

I was not raised Catholic and have only been to the Catholic church for weddings and funerals. I have had many dealings with Catholics and live in an area which is predominantly and almost without exception Catholic. I am a mut with relatives descending from a multitude of religions. I have voted for many Catholics and expect to do so in the future.

But definately it is a FRINGE group here (remember based on the numbers in the general population there are tons of Catholics who are Democrats)!!!

I think it is also very important for those who choose a political career to join a religion.

[Momgonepostal]

72. Please stick around!

I'm one of the few LDS posters on this site, and understand what you're saying. Believe me, you are not alone! Please stay and speak your mind. :-)

[Drunken Irishman]

73. Wow, LDS? Are you from Utah?

I know a lot of great LDS people. Sadly, I also know a lot like Chris Cannon and Mitt Romney.

Like Catholics, it seems those loud-mouthed conservatives are the voice of your religion, while you're left out in the cold trying to defend your liberal stances!

[Momgonepostal]

74. No, I'm from Northern CA

And yes, I'm active LDS and teach a class at church.

I wouldn't say CA Mormons are liberal, but I've heard people from church here make comments like they hope the next president is a democrat or roll their eyes at all the Reagan funeral hoopla.

Anyway, welcome to DU! It's nice to "meet" you! :hi:

[Drunken Irishman]

76. Thank you!

Most non-Utah Mormons are actually really good people and far more liberal than their counterparts here in the land of Zion.

I don't know why Utah Mormons are so unlike other US Mormons. (Idaho, too). Oh well.