Anyone have experience with Al-Anon?

[GoddessOfGuinness]

My older boy's drinking is frightening me. He's drinking whiskey and brandy in large quantities on what appears to be a daily basis.
I've told him he needs to quit but it goes in one year and out the other. He's still got 9 months before he's legally allowed to drink. I don't buy stuff for him, or let him drink freely; but I also don't (and can't) breathe down his back to make sure he isn't. He does not take the booze we have here.

He's told me he'll probably quit when he turns 21. I'd love to believe that; but I can't help thinking he may become addicted before that day ever comes, if he isn't already.

So I think I'd like to try something like Al-Anon, if it isn't a jesus-loves-me type of organization.

Please share your experiences with Al-Anon and other self-help and support organizations.

Thanks...:loveya:

[raccoon]

1. I highly recommend it. I've been attending for about 5 years now.

I don't have someone who is drinking in my life right now, but I have in the past and I grew up in a family where there was alcoholism. Some other attendees no longer have an alcoholic in their lives, some do. It used to be most attendees had a spouse who was/had stopped drinking. Nowadays, you are seeing more and more parents in Al Anon. In my area, there is one parents' meeting.

The 12-step groups are supposed to be spiritual, not religious.

Al Anon has helped me in lots of ways. I've said several times--half-seriously--that everybody who has to work needs the meetings.

I encourage you to check it out.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

3. I have weird working hours...

I wonder if they ever have meetings during the day. If not, I could probably attend on a sporadic basis.

Thanks for your reply! :hi:

[Maraya1969]

86. There are day meetings. You can check at the Alanon website.

Also I've heard of people having meetings on line. I've never done it but it sounds good.

I've gone to Alanon and I think it is a wonderful program.

[Westegg]

2. Al-Anon is a good program, for sure...

It's helped me, and many other people I know with situations just like yours. Make no mistake, it's not a "Jesus" program. Like someone else said, it's spiritual, NOT religious. There are no "rules," or anything like that. An Al-Anon meeting is a place where you'll likely find many people you can relate to and talk to. They'll understand you because they're all going through stuff that is remarkably similar (You might be surprised!). And, if you don't like it, then that's it! I'd suggest you go to one meeting (usually an hour) and see what you think.

I'll say one more thing: Your boy's drinking is frightening you. From what you wrote, your reaction is Tunderstandable. You can't control another person's actions, but you can be aware of their impact on you, and you can help yourself, and ask for help from others, too. Al-Anon is a place you might be able to find help. I found help there.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

4. Thanks for your input...

I used to have him watch my younger son when I had to work at night; but not knowing whether he's drinking or not has made me seek other sitters.

[tigereye]

5. college kids seem to binge drink more than we did at that age...

I think that would be a good idea to get some support and ideas of how to handle things.

I have encountered college kids who don't seem to realize how risky binge drinking is, or that they could get in over their heads.


:hug: to you sweetie!

[GoddessOfGuinness]

15. I drank when I was under age; but it wasn't every night...

and I rarely drank anything stronger than wine. He's depressed, and the drinking won't help that out at all.

On the bright side, he's taken steps toward getting counseling for himself. :thumbsup:

Thanks for the hug! :hug:

[tigereye]

36. any time!

[Suich]

6. I don't know anything about Al-Anon but

I wish you the best, whatever you decide to do.

:hug:

[GoddessOfGuinness]

16. Thanks, Suich...

:hug:

[SPKrazy]

7. don't worry GoG

Jesus doesn't love you :P

no experience personally with Alanon

do have experience with another 12 step program and have known lots of Alanon members

I think that it is worth trying...

the worst that can happen is that they'd not help you, but I'd bet that you'd find help there.

:hug:

[GoddessOfGuinness]

17. Help is good...

I don't even mind Jesus, except when someone's trying to cram him down my throat. :rofl:

My older son tells me he doesn't think he has a problem with alcohol and doesn't want to be "put" into a program by a counselor. At this point, I'm just hoping he'll follow through on his therapy appointment. My younger stepson is trying to talk him out of going. :-(

[NC_Nurse]

8. I found it helpful.

You don't have to be religious. It has a spiritual basis, but no dogma.
I hope you find it helpful. :-)

[GoddessOfGuinness]

18. Spiritual is fine for me...

Thanks for replying. :hi:

[TrogL]

9. I've attended Al-Anon

...because of ex-wife's drinking.

Like other 12-step programs it is a spiritual program but definitely NOT religious (at least done properly).

He's putting away waaaaaay too much booze to still have a liver when he's 21. I'd call AA as well and see if they can find someone his age to talk to him - but only if he wants to talk.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

20. He's in denial if he's got a problem...

...and I believe he does.

I'm tempted to introduce him to an alcoholic coworker of mine. He's been off the sauce for a little over a year now; but he still looks terrible...gaunt and with that broken look in his eyes.

If I'm vocal about attending Al-Anon myself, it might open his eyes enough to make him consider that he might have a drinking problem.

[TrogL]

56. That's not the purpose of Al-Anon

It's not a club (pun not intended) to hit alcholics over the head with.

It's to deal with your own issues and how to avoid getting sucked into his.

If he sees 12-step programs as a threat, he won't go to AA.

[graywarrior]

10. Yes. I found out I needed AA by going to AL-ANON.

Then, after I went to AA for awhile, I needed to go back to AL-ANON to deal with all the drunks I met in AA.

But seriously, AL-ANON is an unbelievably supportive help group. Taught me that there is nothing I can do to stop the drinker from drinking. But is sure helps to know what you are dealing with, and AL-ANON is great for helping people through all the guilt and anguish of living with an alcoholic drinker.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

21. That's good to know...

My son hasn't taken any of the booze I keep in the house; but I'm beginning to wonder if we shouldn't just get rid of anything that isn't for immediate consumption.

[graywarrior]

33. All I can say is that alcohol is an incidious disease of the mind

I know that when I drank, I played every head game, confessed all my sins, admitted I lied, cheated, stole...anything to take the pressure off so I could continue to drink. Hell, I could even stop drinking for months...a year even...knowing eventually, I'd have another drink. I'd make everyone so proud of me KNOWING I'd be drinking again.

Sometimes the drinker just has to hit bottom and that bottom is different for everyone. Some need to lose everything--family, job, house--some just need a DUI. But the family and friends dealing with the alcoholic needs AL-ANON to understand what they are up against and, most importantly, support for themselves. Living with a drinker is torture.

I hope you can find some peace for yourself. Go to at least 6 different AL-ANON meetings until you find one that you feel comfortable with. And like they say in AA, we're not the cream of the crop--that goes for all of us.

[ellisonz]

11. Ground him and then convert him to a moderate social drinker.

http://peele.net/

Alcoholics Anonymous is not the only solution to problem drinking.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

22. If he was 17, I would...

But he's legally an adult, even if he's below the legal age to drink...kind of stupid, really. They should either raise the age one is considered an adult, or lower the drinking age to 18.

I think if he starts attending therapy sessions, he could temper his drinking to a healthier consumption level.

Thanks for the book tips. If he expresses an interest in stopping or slowing his intake, I'll recommend that he check out the site. :hi:

[TrogL]

57. I'd prefer an organization that has helped millions

vs. one guy with no documented track record

[ellisonz]

87. There's documentation...

Besides it's not like AA is all that succesful as I'm sure you know from first hand expierence.

[Scout]

12. I did not care for al-anon

i was not interested in learning how to live with an alcoholic...

i only went to al-anon because it was "required" of the spouse for the program he was in ... he wasn't really interested in recovering, so i wasn't either.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

23. That's too bad...

I'm not convinced that "required" counseling does much good. On the other hand, if I hadn't required that my older son go into counseling with us a few years ago, he might not be asking to go now.

[BlueIris]

13. It's helped me.

Try it and see if it helps you; if you can't find a good group, shop around until you do or search until you locate a program or support system that works for you.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

24. I think I will...

since it doesn't sound preachy. :hi:

[SKKY]

14. It helped me a great deal cope with my father's alcoholism...

...which in turned made it much easier for me to help him. At worst, you go and find out it isn't for you, which will be painfully obvious within the first 30 minutes. At best, you get something from it that will allow you to help your son and have a certain measure of peace.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

25. Thanks for your post...

I'll find out if there's a meeting nearby. :hi:

[iverglas]

19. nope, because I wouldn't go within 100 miles of it

It can call itself a "self-help" and "support" organization. It ain't.

A good friend of mine got mixed up with a woman with whom he eagerly wanted to enter into a committed relationship. She was a daughter and ex-spouse of alcoholics. She belonged to Al-Anon.

Her life was organized around it. Al-Anon picnics, Al-Anon friends, Al-Anon meetings. Addicted to Al-Anon. Not really. Powerless against it, though. He was particularly distressed that she apparently discussed her relationship with him at length with her Al-Anon buddies.

When he came back to town here for a visit, he dropped in to see the psychologist he had seen for a while when his marriage was ending. He told him about the situation. The psychologist's advice: turn around, run, and don't look back. There were three parties to that relationship, and he was always, always going to be number three, as long as she maintained her association with Al-Anon.


If you can actually read this, and imagine adopting it as the framework of your life, without gagging --

Twelve Steps

1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.

2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.

9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.

11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to others, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

-- and if you are willing to participate in an organization that brooks no criticism and actively discourages independent thought -- the 12-step business may be for you.

If not -- please look for help from a genuine, qualified mental health professional who has YOUR interests at heart.

I don't know how old your son is, but if he's still young enough that you have some genuine responsibility for / control over his actions, please do the same for him.

The 12-step cult has a virtual chokehold on addiction treatment in North America, but there are other options for self-help/support if one is determined to find them. SOS (Secular Organization for Sobriety), for instance, may have meetings in your area. I have some experience with SOS from quite some time ago, but am not familiar enough with it to offer much info or opinion. You could have a look at these:

http://www.secularsobriety.org/
http://www.unhooked.com/index.htm

Best of luck.

[NC_Nurse]

26. They don't kidnap you or anything.

I went for as long as I wanted and then moved on. This lady may have needed more support.
Maybe your friend's psychologist overeacted...or maybe he was just not a good match for her.
I really don't see how it has anything to do with the organization.
Anyone who has grown up in an alcoholic family and been married to alcoholics is going to have issues.
That doesn't mean they can't have good relationships if they have help from somewhere.
12 step groups have the most success with addicts and their families, that's why they are the preeminent treatment form in the U.S.
When something else is proven effective, I'm sure it will be adopted.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

28. I think I can understand why the lady in question

became so dependent on the group. It must have filled emotional needs that weren't being met when her husband was drinking. Still, she probably would have benefitted from some other therapy...

[NC_Nurse]

29. Agreed. Some can't afford it though.

I personally did both, and I got a lot out of both. I worry about my kids too.
They are 25, 21, and 19. I feel your pain. :hug:

[Deep13]

41. Unfortunately, some can't afford needed therapy.

That does not make the church of Al-Anon a viable alternative. All they are doing is preying on vulnerable people who have no place to turn.

[TrogL]

58. Al-Anon is not a church

12-step programs are not religious. There are no creeds. The definition of "God" is so open-ended that religious types complain.

[Deep13]

69. Read the steps again.

It is the definition of a religion. There are no creeds? Are you serious? The steps are a creed! The fact that you don't specifically name your god or are under a specific denomination does not change that. "Spiritual" is just another word for religious even though it usually denotes an informal religion. The 12 steps are as formal of a religion as there is with unchangeable doctrine and dogma and unquestionable founders.

[TrogL]

71. Define "religion", "creed", "spiritual"

...and anyone who thinks the founders were unquestionable needs to read old Grapevine issues and AA history.

[datasuspect]

72. the basis of any 12 step program

lies in the book entitled "alcholics anonymous."

copyright information:

Copyright © 1939, 1955, 1976, 2001 by
Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc.
All rights reserved.

First Edition, sixteen printings, 1939 to 1955
Second Edition, sixteen printings, 1955 to 1974
Third Edition, seventy-four printings, 1976 to 2001

Fourth Edition, New and Revised 2001
First printing, October 2001
Eighteenth printing, August 2006

Personal stories on pages 407, 476, 494, 531, and 553 are copyrighted © by
The A.A. Grapevine, Inc., and are reprinted here with permission.

This is A.A. General Service
Conference-approved literature

Alcoholics Anonymous and A.A. are registered
trademarks® of A.A. World Services, Inc.

Library of Congress Control Number: 2001094693
ISBN 1-893007-16-2


it was more less or less written by william griffith wilson, aka "bill w."

one portion of the book is the ACTUAL program. it is the primary text for aa/al anon fundamentalists and many of them believe it is inerrant and divinely inspired.

here is what this book intends to accomplish:

"The great fact is just this, and nothing less: That we have had deep and effective spiritual experiences which have revolutionized our whole attitude toward life, toward our fellows and toward God's universe. The central fact of our lives today is the absolute certainty that our Creator has entered into our hearts and lives in a way which is indeed miraculous. He has commenced to accomplish those things for us which we could never do by ourselves." pg. 25, "alcoholics anonymous"

the inculcation of dire hopelessness:

"Once more: The alcoholic at certain times has no effective mental defense against the first drink. Except in a few rare cases, neither he nor any other human being can provide such a defense. His defense must come from a Higher Power."

what PRECISELY the book (the program) is EXACTLY about:

"Lack of power, that was our dilemma. We had to find a power by which we could live, and it had to be a Power greater than ourselves. Obviously. But where and how were we to find this Power?

Well, that's exactly what this book is about. Its main object is to enable you to find a Power greater than yourself which will solve your problem. That means we have written a book which we believe to be spiritual as well as moral. And it means, of course, that we are going to talk about God. Here difficulty arises with agnostics. Many times we talk to a new man and watch his hope rise as we discuss his alcoholic problems and explain our fellowship. But his face falls when we speak of spiritual matters, especially when we mention God, for we have re-opened a subject which our man thought he had neatly evaded or entirely ignored."

luckily, most mainstream aa doesn't follow the text alcoholics anonymous (the big book) to the letter. however, there are fundamentalist factions of aa/al anon out there and these should be avoided like the plague. they are highly dysfunctional and toxic groups.

[TrogL]

78. Yeah, even I take some sections with a grain of salt

believe it is inerrant

It's more along the line of "it it's not busted, why fix it". The problem is, what to change? I find one section of "How it works" downright insulting but I'm not about to take it out if it helps someone else.

...and divinely inspired.

Never heard that in a meeting.

You also need to read other AA literature, that is "approved" and has more detailed and nuanced explanations.

[datasuspect]

81. i'm a pretty busy guy sometimes

and between reading useful material related to my classes or work, aa material doesn't figure at all in any formulation of reality that i might choose to create for myself.

fyi: i've pretty much read ALL the conference approved literature, and most of it is a variation on the big book theme (when it isn't busy being an expression of bill w.'s late stage ego crisis).

[TrogL]

82. Early Grapevines are a hoot

June - Bill W. gets on his high horse about something-or-other
July - somebody else slaps him down
August - Bill W. "oops, I did it again"

[datasuspect]

83. i remember reading about his niacin obsession

and his LSD experimentation.

in all truthfulness though, i would have loved to have met the guy and go to some of the hardcore low bottom drunk meetings they had in the midwest in the early days.

an oldtimer here in chicago once told me about the central park group on the west side in the 50s and 60s.

if someone still had a wristwatch, they'd more or less tell him to keep drinking.

it wasn't all touchy feely. it was the program - the book. not cats anonymous or i can't balance my checkbook anonymous.

aa was my one flirtation with orthodoxy and fundamentalism. i blush nowadays when i look at how gullible i was then.

[TrogL]

85. Apparently Bill W. was a handfull

One of the reasons for the whole "principles before personalities" thing.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

27. That's quite an eye-opener...

Thank you for the links to the alternative programs. I 'll check them out! :hi:

[iverglas]

31. you're welcome!

I really do wish you the best of luck. My addict wasn't family, he was a partner. He died 18 months ago at 52, a heart attack obviously because of his lifelong substance abuse. I had only met him when he was about 35, and terminated the relationship 3 years later (some of that time having been while he was in treatment programs or otherwise not welcome in my home), when all attempts to find him help that worked failed.

He was finally diagnosed with bipolar disorder a couple of years before he died, as his alcoholic father had been a few years before that.

I realized that you had mentioned your son's depression. You might want to explore the idea of substance abuse as self-medication, rather than as "addiction". Your son may be drinking to cope with his depression, and in that case it may be unrealistic to think he can, or expect him to, stop drinking as an independent goal. Your son does need professional help to deal with depression, if that is his diagnosis. Twelve-step programs ostensibly do not reject the idea of professional mental health, but insist that the substance abuse is a separate problem that can (must) be addressed separately. Professional opinion tends to differ.

Here's a bit of an intro to "dual diagnosis" -- "Self-Medication Often Coexists With Depression":

http://depression.about.com/cs/drugsalcohol/a/dualdiagnosis.htm

When depression or other mental illness is coexistent with alcohol or drug abuse this is known as "dual diagnosis". If the abuse is a result of the mental illness, it may also be referred to as "self-medication", meaning that the person is using the drug as a means of coping with the symptoms of their illness.

Google alcohol "self-medication" depression if you're interested in more about it.

If this is his situation (I personally suspect that it is the situation for a large proportion of substance abusers), understanding it may help you and him deal with it better, both emotionally and practically.

If he is getting competent help for his problems, whatever they are, you might find that an Al-Anon group helps you. But as Scout said: if you don't want to live with an alcoholic, a group of people who have chosen to live with alcoholics would not necessarily be the place to be. As she intimated, Al-Anon is really still all about the other person, who is defined as an alcoholic. If your son is depressed, not just an alcoholic, and you want your own support, not just support as someone defined as "co-dependent" ...

You might find an Al-Anon group that suits, just as you might find an SOS or other alternative group that doesn't. I really do recommend learning as much as you can about your son's situation and the options for both of you for dealing with it.

Again, very good luck. I wish my substance abuser had had someone who gave a shit when he was a kid.

[raccoon]

38. I wonder if this man was trying to control this woman and felt threatened by

her being involved in Al Anon. If she'd been very involved in her church, he might have felt the same way.

Also, if he was drinking he undoubtedly would feel threatened by her being in Al Anon and talking about his drinking.

I'm just throwing these things out as possibilities.

Also, if his psychologist told him to " turn around, run, and don't look back," the psychologist is an idiot and the man should have run from him and not looked back. Psychologists aren't supposed to tell the patient what to do, but to help them make healthier choices.

[Deep13]

42. That's speculation based on nothing.

Psychologists are supposed to treat psychological disorders. A cult like Al-Anon will only make it worse.

I think you are speculating about the man's motives with no basis for it except the desire to discredit any criticism of AAland.

[raccoon]

43. The psychologist was telling the man what to do, not the woman.

He wasn't the one involved in Al Anon.

Al Anon were a cult anyway. A person is free to come or go as they wish.

Yes, I am speculating because I don't know the situation in RL, and neither do you. But that was the way it sounded to me from what was posted.

[Deep13]

44. So what are psychologists supposed to do then?

If someone is convinced that he or she is doomed without X, then just how free is he to leave it. For example, you can leave the church anytime you feel like burning in hell for all eternity.

[raccoon]

45. Looks like your response and my edit crossed in the mail. Our

network is dragging today.

The psychologist shouldn't be telling the man to get out of a relationship. Seems to me psychologists are to help the patient figure out things for himself, not tell him what to do.

[Deep13]

48. I don't see how that is outside the purview of psychology.

If a relationship is making him unhappy or stressed-out, then ending it seems like reasonable advice.
:shrug:

[raccoon]

53. Psychologists don't need to be giving "advice" either. Seems to me

they're to help the patient to make his/her own choices.

[Deep13]

55. Well, I will assume that having been educated and licensed in psychology...

...that they know what their job is. Of course, I don't know anything about this one in particular other than the second hand account that was relayed up-thread.

[iverglas]

59. yes ... and ...

they're to help the patient to make his/her own choices.

When a highly intelligent person such as myself or my friend gets to a psychologist in a situation like this, it's because s/he is having some trouble making a choice, given that we do not have that kind of trouble in other situations.

In both our cases, what was actually going on was that we knew what choice had to be made, we were just having trouble acting on it. The help we needed was help in acting in our own best interests. Confirming what we already knew we needed to do was the help we needed.

Once again, YOU are the one playing the intermeddler. What goes on between psychologist and client really isn't your business, and since both I and my friend were very happy with the services our psychologists provided to us, and both of us were able to do what the psychologist and we knew needed to be done, you really just have nothing to be concerned about.

My concern is for people who don't get such good advice, and end up organizing every aspect of their lives around a substance abuser, who is meanwhile being encouraged to organize every aspect of his/her own life around that substance abuse. There are so many more and better things one can do with one's life.

I'm fine, my friend is fine, my ex-partner is dead, his is probably living her life in a whirl of Al-Anon picnics that don't leave a lot of time for wondering what else she might be missing. No cause for concern here, for you, anyhow.

[raccoon]

64. My, aren't you in a defensive, snarky mood?

Have a nice day.

[iverglas]

65. good argument! (edited)

I think you know what it's called. I call it ad locutorem.

Attack the speaker, pretend not to hear what s/he said ...

Can't take the heat, avoid spewing crap about people. That's what I say.


If you don't wish to receive private messages, don't send them. I'll say that, too.

If you want to call me an asshole, have the guts to do it in public.

[TrogL]

61. You must go to some wierd churches

[Deep13]

62. Not anymore.

Is that not the basis of Christianity? We are all sinners and, therefore, doomed. Only JC can save us from that. Belief in and worship of JC secure that salvation. This includes attending church and for some demonimation, studing the Bible. Leaving means rejecting salvation and accepting everlasting torment.

[TrogL]

68. That's fundie crap

and I'm not gonna let religion hijack this thread.

[Deep13]

74. No, it's history and Nicean doctrine.

It's pretty hard to seperate the 12-steps from religion when most of the steps are about god.

[TrogL]

76. "as we understand him"

...and some people's "understanding" takes a bit of getting used to.

Discussion of the exact nature of your "Higher Power" is discouraged at meetings (that's religion), but some people do blurt things out. One guy uses the doorknob of the meeting room. Another uses the actual, physical steps going upstairs. Nothin' about that in the Nicean creed.

Also, "these steps are suggested as a program of recovery".

[Deep13]

91. It has to be a god capable of restoring us to sanity. Step2. nt

[iverglas]

63. you were asking for a definition of a cult

I think that the statement you're commenting on:

If someone is convinced that he or she is doomed without X, then just how free is he to leave it. For example, you can leave the church anytime you feel like burning in hell for all eternity.

would provide an idea.

Yup, a church that says that you're free to leave, but if you leave you will burn in hell for all eternity just might be a cult.

Kinda like an organization that says you're free to leave, but if you leave you will die drunk in the gutter just might be a cult.

[TrogL]

70. You still haven't defined "cult"

Yup, a church that says that you're free to leave, but if you leave you will burn in hell for all eternity just might be a cult.

Yep, that's one of the aspects of the religious cult.

Kinda like an organization that says you're free to leave, but if you leave you will die drunk in the gutter just might be a cult.

Then so's the fire department. They're constantly preaching "if you leave oily rags next to the furnace, your house will burn down".

It takes awhile to wrap your head around how 12-step groups work (when done properly - I've seem my fair share of disasters). It's an "us" mentality with no "them". "Rarely have we seen a person fail who thoroughly follows our path". The next sentence does NOT say "Those that don't follow our path...". That's an outside issue. AA has no control over the courts sending people to AA, saying that it's a solution. That's an outside issue. I wish they wouldn't - I chair meetings where 1/4 of the people there are addicts (not alcoholics) or DUI's goofing around waiting for the meeting to end so they get their little piece of paper signed.

Somebody was complianing (on another board) that 10% of people recover from alcoholism by just quitting, seeing a shrink or whatever, 10% get help in AA, and the other 80% don't. They were saying AA claims to be the only solution. It doesn't and it isn't. Yes, you may hear somebody say that in a meeting. People say lots of stupid things in meetings 'cause they haven't read the damn book or properly studied the history of the organization and the traditions. If somebody finds a different way, go for it. If you wanna sit in an AA meeting day after day and never speak, never do the steps, never get a sponsor and that works, go for it. Not exactly recommended, but whatever. The chant "it works if you work it" is NOT in the Big Book.

OK, but we were talking about "cult".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult

Cult roughly refers to a cohesive social group devoted to beliefs or practices that the surrounding culture considers outside the mainstream, with a notably positive or negative popular perception. In common or populist usage, "cult" has a positive connotation for groups of art, music, writing, fiction, and fashion devotees,<1> but a negative connotation for new religious, extreme political, questionable therapeutic, and pyramidal business groups.

...

Some anthropologists and sociologists studying cults have argued that no one has yet been able to define “cult” in a way that enables the term to identify only groups that have been identified as problematic. However, without the "problematic" concern, scientific criteria of characteristics attributed to cults do exist.<2> A little-known example is the Alexander and Rollins, 1984, scientific study concluding that the socially well-received group Alcoholics Anonymous is a cult,<3> yet Vaillant, 2005, further concluded that AA is beneficial.<4>

I'm not all that uncomfortable being in a "cult" by its broadest definition. I don't even think 12-step programs are that far off "mainstream" thinking other than some of the strange places the traditions take you (eg. attraction rather than promotion).

[iverglas]

80. hahaha

Then so's the fire department. They're constantly preaching "if you leave oily rags next to the furnace, your house will burn down".

That isn't really true, is it? I wonder why you would say it.

The fire service actually says that if you leave oily rags next to your furnace, you increase the risk of your house burning down.

And what it says is actually true.

See the distinction?

As for the rest, no, I'm just not interested in the magic incarnations, or excuses. I've seen how 12-step meetings and programs "work", too. You be a cult member if you like. Is proselytizing a hallmark? Rhetorical question, I assure you.

[TrogL]

84. Hell no. I probably shouldn't even be posting here

Like I said somewhere else "level of press, radio and film" gets kinda vague on the net.

As to the cult thing, I clarified that somewhere else in this thread.

There's quite a lot of mis-information about 12-step programs out there that makes the program less attractive that I prefer to see corrected (passive voice intentional). I may very well have stepped over the line saying "it works for me", but remember, I'm just a bunch of pixels on your screen. YMMV.

[Kajsa]

95. TrogL, I for one

am very glad you posted here.

:pals:

[ellisonz]

88. Except when it's court ordered!

[TrogL]

60. Define "cult"

[iverglas]

47. throw out, throw up

Do what you like.

The man in question was not an alcoholic, and was not trying to control her. He was a good friend of mine, and an eminently decent person. Not "political" ... after we'd known each other well for some time, he asked me one day: iverglas, are you a feminist? Wha'?? I said. Have I done something to make you think I'm not?? The very fact that as a really hot 45-yr-old (with a successful construction business, and a degree in Soviet studies), who had boopsies half his age chasing him around the gym, he was seeking out women his own age (this one had three kids) to form a relationship gave me considerable respect for him.

This woman was not "very involved in" Al-Anon. She organized her life around it. In any event, what's this "very involved in" Al-Anon? Al-Anon is supposed to be a support group, not a way of life or substitute for family, friends and community.

She was not "talking about his drinking" with her Al-Anon buddies, since there was nothing to talk about in that regard. She was talking about him and about their relationship. Most people think of this as something one might do with very close friends -- he did, after all, confide in me (and only me) about some aspects of their relationship (which doesn't do much to support the "controlling man" theory) -- not something one does indiscriminately with members of a group of strangers to the couple.

Also, if his psychologist told him to " turn around, run, and don't look back," the psychologist is an idiot

I suppose that would be your professional opinion. Kinda confirms what I said about the ostensible support of 12-step cults for professional mental health services and providers.

Psychologists aren't supposed to tell the patient what to do, but to help them make healthier choices.

And when clients are intelligent people who know very well what they need to do and are dithering on the brink, having someone articulate the choice they know is the only one that will work, and give confirmation to someone who may not be confident that s/he is doing the right thing, can be a very good thing. It certainly was a very good thing for me. After those 3 years of dealing with my substance abuser, I kept his second appointment with the psychologist I'd found for him (on the suggestion of Alfred Adler, whom Jim Christopher of SOS had suggested I contact), when it was plain he wasn't going to show up. I had reached my wit's end. And after a bit, the psychologist said You know you have to get rid of him. And I did know. It just took me another couple of months to put him on the bus. But having someone -- someone who had been there, in fact, although he has never disclosed details to me -- confirm to me that I had to do what I knew was good for me was important.

Oh, and of course ... people are just as free not to do what a psychologist says as they are free not to do what a 12-step group says. The difference might be that psychologists don't try to get people to do what they tell them by shaming or claiming to have the one true way.

If I'd wanted to go on having my life destroyed by a substance abuser and organizing my life around him and his substance abuse, Al-Anon might have been the place for me. I didn't.

Thanks ever so much for your uninformed commentary on several people about whom you know nothing, including, by virtue of your commentary on those people whom I do know, me. I like it when 12-steppers are true to the pattern of imposing their insulting paradigm on everybody.

[Deep13]

40. I absolutely agree.

That was my experience as well. Not satisfied with making my mother's husband's nondrinking the center of his life's attention, AA's spin-off group wanted to make it the center of mine too.

[Kajsa]

30. Hi G of G. Al-Anon helped my mom

quite a bit.

Because of her understanding of the disease, both my brother
and I knew our dad wasn't a "bad" person.

I later got involved with another 12 step program that saved my life.

Check out LOTS of different meetings because they can vary quite a bit.

There should be meetings both day and night for you to check out.

Good luck- it's a tough road, but you aren't alone!

:hug:

[Manifestor_of_Light]

32. I had to stop going because they all smoked!!!! n/t

:banghead:

[raccoon]

37. Don't know when you were going, but if it was a long time ago, things have

probably changed.

Many 12 step meetings are in churches. Now any church that I know of has banned smoking in the building.

[Kajsa]

46. All the meetings around here are non-smoking.

It's been that way for almost five years, now.

[Debi]

34. I wish you well GoG

:hug:

[mike_c]

35. it helped me deal with my ex-wife's drinking, but I should have started earlier....

I made lots of mistakes that Al-Anon showed me, but by then it was too late.

[Deep13]

39. Honestly, I'm pretty skeptical about the whole 12-step thing.

It pretty much is a Jesus-loves-me thing. While it makes the pretense of being nonreligious, the whole program revolves around redemption through a personal relationship with god. It is clearly a religious organization (some use the euphemism "spiritual") and depends on surrendering your will to a supernatural father-figure. 12-step groups have never been subjected to clinical testing and their methods have not changed since they were written in the 1930s. It also requires that you admit and believe that you are powerless over this problem and that only the 12-steps can save you. That's nonsense, of course. The goal of Al-Anon or any similar cultish group is to get you in and make sure you never leave.

If you need psychological support, I would look for a clinical or at least secular group therapy. Still, it is important to remember that your son is an adult and as long as you do not facilitate his behavior, this is his life and not yours. You are not responsible for his actions.

[Kajsa]

49. Deep 13, there are no pretenses.

But there are lots of misconceptions out there.

We have atheists in 12 step programs, and it works for them.

" Jesus Loves Me?" Give me a break!

Tell that to the Jewish, Muslim and Buddhist members.

Maybe you should visit a meeting ( open meetings welcome visitors)
to see what is actually going on.

[iverglas]

52. maybe you should know what you're talking about

before insinuating that someone else doesn't.

Try reading post 40. Like you should have done before giving someone else your spurious advice.

[Kajsa]

54. Iverglas! Wassup?

I did read it.

:hi:

[Deep13]

66. Goddammit, disagreement does not make me ignorant.

I've been to meetings. People sitting around talking about how shitty their lives are but instead of doing something about it, they just accept things because they have turned their lives over to their "higher power" and have accepted their own powerlessness. Those are pretty much the first few steps, are they not? Yes, it is nice to share with people. You don't need a mystical, made-up program for that.

Whatever denominations the attendees are, the god described in the 12 steps and in the Big Book is the Christian god of redemption. If there is no god, and there isn't, at least not one interested in managing our lives, then whom is in charge of the lives of 12-steppers? The statement that it works for some people is unfounded. One should not confuse success within the program with success in living a better life. Also, just because one is impoving while attending AA etc. does not mean that the latter is causing the former.

Now it is your turn to say that since I have personal knowledge that I must have an axe to grind and, therefore, my statements cannot be credited. In point of fact my own experience or lack thereof has no bearing on the veracity of my assertion.

[TrogL]

75. Yup, you're exactly right

I've been to meetings. People sitting around talking about how shitty their lives are but instead of doing something about it, they just accept things because they have turned their lives over to their "higher power" and have accepted their own powerlessness.

Yep. They're sometimes called "1-2-3 steppers". The gold is in the later steps.

Whatever denominations the attendees are, the god described in the 12 steps and in the Big Book is the Christian god of redemption.

Re-read "We Agnostics".

The statement that it works for some people is unfounded. One should not confuse success within the program with success in living a better life.

Err .... that's pretty tortuous. The purpose of AA is to quit drinking. Anything beyond that is a side-effect. I will promise that you will not drink during an AA meeting. Belay that, a few months ago I found a vodka bottle in the garbage.

Also, just because one is impoving while attending AA etc. does not mean that the latter is causing the former.

In true formal logic, correct. That's undivided middle. Inductively, however, if I throw a match in a puddle of gasoline and it blows up, I'm going to have a hard time claiming lightning did it.

Heck, I think some of the promises on pg. 83 are a bit far-fetched (ignoring that they actually do seem to be happening).

For that matter, why believe me? I'm just a bunch of pixels on your screen. I'm no 12-step spokesperson - anonymity at the level of "press, radio and films" doesn't take the net into account (that discussion is ongoing in the Grapevine). I'm not even trying to promote it. I'm just pointing out misconceptions. I know it doesn't work for everybody. I've seen it work for other people. I've seen it fail for scores of people. It appears to be working for me when nothing else did.

[datasuspect]

77. re-read "we agnostics?"

here's a gem from "we agnostics"

"Lack of power, that was our dilemma. We had to find a power by which we could live, and it had to be a Power greater than ourselves. Obviously. But where and how were we to find this Power?

Well, that's exactly what this book is about. Its main object is to enable you to find a Power greater than yourself which will solve your problem. That means we have written a book which we believe to be spiritual as well as moral. And it means, of course, that we are going to talk about God. Here difficulty arises with agnostics. Many times we talk to a new man and watch his hope rise as we discuss his alcoholic problems and explain our fellowship. But his face falls when we speak of spiritual matters, especially when we mention God, for we have re-opened a subject which our man thought he had neatly evaded or entirely ignored."

that's capital "g" GOD.

they are not talking about doorknobs here. they are specifically referring to an interventionist, living deity. for bill w. and dr. bob, that would have meant the god of the christian faith.

[Deep13]

90. "Yep. They're sometimes called "1-2-3 steppers". The gold is in the later steps."

Also known as grateful to have escaped with some amount of sanity left. Frankly, the pat, even cliched, answers to criticisms of the "program" remind me nothing more than fundamental Christianity. I was one of those once too. THEY also have a reflexive answer to everything. Like AA etc. their answers also are based solely on semantics and derisive dismissals of anyone with a skeptical perspective. What did restore me to sanity was modern, evidence based psychiatry.

Your example of gasoline is not appositive. There is a directly observable cause and effect there. We know from other evidence that gas is explosive. We have no reason to think that praying does anything. Praying a lot is only incidental.

I'm very sorry. Your assertion that there is "gold" in the mystical higher steps reveals a programmed and indoctrinated mind that no longer belongs to you. I know from direct observation that there is nothing but pyrite.

I'm done with this subject as I have nothing more to add.

[Kajsa]

92. OK- Your experiences were very different from mine.

The Jesus comment threw me because that's what I hear
from people who have never been to a meeting.

I can't answer for others regarding who or what their higher power is.
I do know this- it works for many, not all, but many.

Like I said, we do have atheists in programs.
It works for them too.

I'm sorry you've had such bad experiences.

[TrogL]

67. Have you actually read any 12-step literature?

It pretty much is a Jesus-loves-me thing.

Discussion of religion is frowned upon. I haven't heard "Jesus" in a meeting for ages.

the whole program revolves around redemption through a personal relationship with god

..."as you understand him"...and I've heard some pretty far-out definitions of "god". If my priest knew mine, he'd have me burned at the stake for heresy.


12-step groups have never been subjected to clinical testing

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/j.1360-0443.2006.01447.x?cookieSet=1


and their methods have not changed since they were written in the 1930s.

If it's not busted don't fix it.

It also requires that you ... believe ... that only the 12-steps can save you.

That would require an opinion on outside issues (ie other programs). 12-step groups have no interest in outside issues.

The goal of Al-Anon or any similar cultish group is to get you in and make sure you never leave.

OK, and that accomplishes what? Religious cults are in it for the money, sex or to build their numbers. 12-step groups are deliberately "broke", frown on 13-stepping and simply want "the hand of <pick your group> to be there", a group that gets too large ends up splintering because it's unworkable.

...as long as you do not facilitate his behavior, this is his life and not yours. You are not responsible for his actions.

Pretty much Al-Anon's message in a nutshell.

[Deep13]

89. "If it's not busted don't fix it."

Are you aware of any other medical or psychological treatment that hasn't changed in 70 years? You are assuming it ain't broke. The fact is there is no clinical evidence that it does anything. Sure, it may be good to shoot the shit with empathetic people, but you don't need the 12 steps for that. What about all these no psychiatric drugs available including ones that treat alcohol addiction directly? How has the program been updated to include these new promising treatments? By unilaterally rejecting all of them on philosophical grounds. Such treatment makes one a "dry drunk" with no "spiritual" component. The founders of AA believed in redemption through suffering, the very basis of Christianity. Anything that might actual cure alcoholics or others using their program must be branded as subversive.

Yeah, I've heard people say "As you understand him." "It could be just a rock." That is an idiotic statement. It can't be a rock or just any kind of a god. It has to be one cabable of "restoring us to sanity." Again, just because that god is not a brand name god, does not make it any less of a religious organization. Frankly, Federal Courts have ruled that drunks cannot be compelled to go to AA by a sentencing court because AA is a religion. For it to be a non-religious therapy IT CAN'T INCLUDE GOD.

I am well familiar with this program. I wonder if you have considered any of the serious criticisms about it.

[datasuspect]

73. it isn't so much the jesus thing

many aa'ers eschew organized religion.

the problem lies in adherence to the core text (alcoholics anonymous, "the big book") which formulates an ENTIRELY hopeless spiritual malady (alcoholism) from which the patient has no chance of ever escaping through their own agency.

they are told their only hope lies in developing a relationship with a living god that you get to create which magically lifts alcoholism from you.

you can recover completely, but you are never cured and you have to keep going to aa to proselytize new converts so you can keep staying sober.

the truth is: you can decide to quit, moderate, or other on your own without the help of a self-created interventionist deity.

[KitchenWitch]

50. I have gone to Alanon in the past

and found it imminently helpful.

One of the main things I learned there was how to detach from other people, and let them have the consequences of their behavior. I did not have to be anyone else's savior, or their doormat. It was really freeing for me.

My best wishes to you, I know it is painful.

[ThomCat]

51. GoG

You have all my sympathy, love and respect for dealing with this. I really, truly hope you can find a way to curb his drinking. This is a dangerous road he's on, and unfortunately, it can take the whole family with him.

:hug:

[FloridaJudy]

79. Definitely check it out

I'm in a Twelve Step program myself, and it's done me a world of good. As others have written, it's not a religious program. I've met many atheist/agnostic people there who've managed to stay sane and sober - some for decades - using their principles.

If you live near a large metropolitan area, there should be many meetings that will accommodate your schedule. Your son sounds a lot like a friend of my son's who has been abusing alcohol since his teens. In his late twenties now, the kid is in pretty bad shape. The earlier an alcoholic starts drinking to excess, the faster the damage. If you suspect a problem, chances are there is one.

It's good he's seeking help for his depression. A lot of addicts/alcoholics self-medicate to deal with depression - I know I did. The problem is, it never works except temporarily, and worsens both one's living situation and the underlying mental health issues.

Good luck, and hugs :hug:

[RetroLounge]

93. Al-Anon is fantastic. I would check it out

It has helped many people I know. And thru someone else going there, I got Sober 17 yrs ago.

and ignore the "cult" crap from people with resentments. Religion is no where near it, when done correctly.

If you don't like Al-Anon, you just leave. No dues. No fees. No cult.

:hi:

RL

[iverglas]

96. ah, resentments

As I recall, we're also "sick". (Of course, resentment is a sorta sickness in itself, I guess.) Isn't that what pages 66 and 67 of the big book tell you?

I've had something to say about that before.


http://www.aa.org/bigbookonline/en_BigBook_chapt5.pdf

Page 66:
"This was our course: we realized that the people who wronged us were perhaps spiritually sick."
Continued on page 67:
"Though we did not like their symptoms and the way these disturbed us, they, like ourselves, were sick too. We asked God to help us show them the same tolerance, pity and patience that we would cheerfully grant a sick friend. When a person offended we said to ourselves, "This is a sick man. How can I be helpful to him? God save me from being angry. Thy will be done."


What I said:

This is simply an ugly, dishonest way of saying "fuck you" to people who DISAGREE WITH them. I am not "sick", spiritually or otherwise, nor are the other people who disagreed with them.

Nor do I have "resentments". (Hey, I'm one of those people with resentments who should be ignored, right?) Any more than Deep13 is ignorant, or anyone else who DISAGREES with the 12-step credo is DEFECTIVE or in any other way.


If you have something positive to say about Al-Anon, you should really try saying it WITHOUT ATTACKING PEOPLE WHO DO NOT AGREE WITH YOU. And this goes for the whole lot of the club.

No one in this thread insulted or attacked anyone else here who advocated Al-Anon attendance. What is wrong with you that you can't make your own argument without insulting and attacking others?

[RetroLounge]

97. Wow.

Just wow...

:hi:

RL

[wain]

94. I am sorry. Your son is an alcoholic. Please get into Al-anon fast

It's probably worse than he's telling you or what you think.

Take a look at Tough Love. http://www.toughlove.com/

You have a tough road ahead. Your son is the one that has to make the decision to quit. That won't be easy for him or for you. I've been through it with my son. Addiction is pure evil. The son you see is not your real son. You will need to be strong, loving, tough, and unyielding.

God speed

:hug: