Dr. Howard Dean - Master of Prestidigitation!

[Sully]

Hehe, check it out, and it's all in Dr. Dean's words!

[Kolesar]

1. nothing is quite like a few statements out of context

to provide political ammunition

[liberalnurse]

2. For a new guy on the block

your have an obvious flair for the absurd.

[LA4Kerry]

5. Dr. Dean

has a flair for the absurd himself!

[mouse7]

3. Who needs neo-cons with friends like you

Yes, please make sure all the cadidates a hamstrung when they get the nomination.

Beside, Dean said he'd release his when Bush released his. I'm far more interested in using that as a wedge to get Dumbya's opened.

[Sully]

4. Bush has already

released his Governor's records! So what mysteries lurk? Hahaha!
Secret deals with Enron etc. etc. etc.???

[Duder]

7. What mysteries lurk?

"Kerry and Bush are Skull and Bones. What, if not the madness of elite leadership, is Skull and Bones dedicated to?

Recently, Kerry has been asked about Skull and Bones, and his staff has made it clear that he does not intend to make any comment, now or in the future.

After all, he has taken an oath of secrecy."

[Sully]

14. A college fraternity haha!

What's in the records? Huh? What is in there? Hmmm.

[Duder]

21. A college fraternity...

...with an oath...



...of secrecy.

[Sully]

32. Oh that is soooo scary!

Hahaha!

[mouse7]

8. No he hasn't. They are in his father Pres. Library

So... you'll go so to tear down Dean that you'lL MAKE BUSH LOOK BETTER AND COVER A BUSH LIE?

That says more than I ever could.

[Sully]

15. No they are currently being archived

By the State of Texas.

[mouse7]

18. No... MOST of Bush's records are being archived

Bush's gubernatorial documents are held at the Texas State Library and Archives Commission, and most are available under Texas public record laws.

After his term as governor ended in 2000, Bush had the documents sent to his father's presidential library at Texas A&M University. Open government groups cried foul and the state attorney general ruled that the documents had to be turned over to the state archives, where they are now being prepared for research; they will eventually be shipped back to the Bush library.

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/president/dean/articles/2003/12/04/dean_pressured_on_records/

Just like anything else with Dumbya, you have to read what is REALLY being said. Here what is being said is that there is an abundance of luncheon menus and Declarations of Texas State Troy Aikman Day from Dumbya's days as Governor being archived... but nothing of substance. Anything of substance is under lock and key and will stay there.

[chocolateeater]

20. According to what I read

you have to request each document by name, and each request has to be approved by the Texas Attorney General. If it's approved you could see it in about 3 months. Sounds like they might as well be sealed.

[Fleshdancer]

57. Actually, they're not

the excuse for the last few years is that they are still being archived. Come down to Austin, TX and try it yourself. I've got a guest bedroom if you need a place to crash.

[LA4Kerry]

6. who needs neo-cons with Dean as Dem nominee?

Dean + Dem nomination = 4 more years of GWB

It's not a question of IF, it's a question of HOW BAD he would lose.

[mouse7]

9. Dean + Dem nomination = 8 years of NO NEO-CONS

Dean will sweep them out the door...

... but so would every Dem but Lieberman.

Stop trying to split the party.

[LA4Kerry]

10. Me?

It's not me you have to worry about; I can't split the party all by myself (very nice of you to think I'm that powerful, though.) ;)

You can say what you want, but the facts don't change. If Dean gets the nomination, he will lose and it won't be pretty!

[mouse7]

13. Actually... almost any nominee has a similar chance

People will be voting for or against Bush. Dumbya will clog the airwaves with his 200 MIL+ and the voters will know almost noting that is accurate about the Democratic nominee. It doesn't matter if the Nominee is Lieberman or Kucinich, most Americans will think they are all equally flaming commies by the time the election rolls around.

The thing is... people will vote for a flaming commie before they will vote for someone who gets their kids killed in a war overseas, threatens their own safety at home, and exports their job to China or India.

[LA4Kerry]

25. Get real!

Sure, Democrats feel that way. But we have to have the common sense to nominate a candidate who will give independents and moderates a reason NOT to vote for Bush (and a reason NOT to stay home)

Like it or not, John Kerry is that candidate. His foreign policy and military experience will bring those indy's and moderates to the voting booth! Dean will keep them home.

Please have common sense about this!

[mouse7]

35. Kerry has missed more than 60% of his votes this Congress

That alone is enough to kill any chance Kerry would have against the other candidates or Dumbya. If Kerry somehow manages to get back in the race, he will be gutted by his attendance stats.

[polpilot]

11. Dr. Dean, The NEW Democratic Leader of The NEW Democratic Party.

Dean '04....

[LA4Kerry]

12. Oh?

Since when has the Democratic party embraced the Confederate Flag and the NRA?

[polpilot]

16. Not embraced...just invited them to vote Bush out and Dean in. Kerry's

pathetic attempts to spin these non issues have resulted in a mortgaged home and a 'crashed and burned' frontrunner. Dean's #'s reflect a return to dignity for the Democratic Party.

Dean '04...

[LA4Kerry]

19. yes, embraced

when he puts it the way he did, that's what it amounts to.


"Dean's #'s reflect a return to dignity for the Democratic Party."

If that's true, we're in trouble.

[polpilot]

22. Keep reciting the Kerry divisive mantras but buckle your seat belt!!!!

Dean '04...The New Democratic Leader of The NEW Democratic Party.

[LA4Kerry]

23. Sounds more like

the Republican wannabe Leader of the Democratic Party.

REAL Democrats don't embrace the NRA and the Confederate Flag.

[polpilot]

28. Looks more like

the gonnabe leader.

Dean '04...

[dogman]

54. Been down that trail with Al

With Al as his copilot he can just skip the South again.

[polpilot]

55. Going down that trail with Dean will be a brand new experience!!!!

Dean '04...

[dogman]

58. I know-I've never gone two directions at once.

Don't need the whiplash.

[Jim Sagle]

17. It'll all turn out to be nuthin' but shit.

[Sully]

24. And what is in the records?

Secret meetings with Enron execs maybe?

[Duder]

26. Secret meetings with Enron execs maybe?

Ask Teresa...

[drb]

27. Looks to me like he gets smarter as time goes on. That would be...

...one hell of a nice change, if you ask me.

:)

[dogman]

29. Flags

What astounds me is that he finds people with Confederate flags desirable but would disrespect all the people who display POW/MIA flags.http://www.suntimes.com/output/elect/cst-nws-dean241.html. This should disqualify him as a nominee immediately. Is Rove really pulling the strings on this act?

[Duder]

30. Disrespect?

If Rove was pulling the strings, I would imagine he'd want to run against a one issue Republican praising never won an election amateur like Clark.

Merry Christmas.

[dogman]

31. Yes disrespect

Your comment makes no more sense than your candidate. Talk about one issue,where does hate get you? I don't believe b*** could pull one this stupid. I see the POW/MIA flag over more public buildings and the sticker on the rear window of pickups than I would care to count. I also think these people are more likely to vote. Clark has more vision for America than pointing like a complete moron and telling people they have the power. the B*** reelection and downfall of the Democratic Party will give us a whole lot more hate filled people to support Dean's successor Gore.

[Sully]

33. Clark is a good candidate...

for the reasons you mentioned, but Kerry has the military and foreign policy experience as well as extensive domestic policy experience and the voting record to back it up. I respect Clark and I have had intelligent discussion with many of his supporters. The Dean supporters on the other hand... have been, let's say, more than a bit illogical.

All my graphic above attempts to do, is point out Dr. D's lack of consistency and transparency. I don't expect to convert any hard-core Dean supporters, and the response above "looks to me like he gets smarter as time goes on" is typical. After Kerry has pointed out time and again the this is not a time for America to have a President who needs "on the job training".

But I do know that when this field thins out, the supporters of other candidates will remember Dean's weaknesses and most certainly chose anybody but Dean.

BTW if anyone thinks this is disparaging of Dean, just wait till the Rove $300M attack machine kicks into gear. I'm working VERY hard to see to it that doesn't happen, by exposing Dean for the wedge candidate that he is. Dean supporters may not like it and they can scream and yell and jump up and down but, especially concerning the war, Dean has taken several, mutually exclusive positions at different times and made public statements that were self-contradictory as well. If anyone insists I will list them here for their perusal.

I reject any suggestions that I am "damaging the Democratic party" by going after Dean. Quite to the contrary, I am participating in the great debate that is this Nation's democratic process of choosing our leaders. If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen!

[LA4Kerry]

37. Damaging the Democratic Party?

"I reject any suggestions that I am "damaging the Democratic party" by going after Dean. Quite to the contrary, I am participating in the great debate that is this Nation's democratic process of choosing our leaders."

Not only are you not damaging the Democratic Party, I consider your comments to be an attempt to SAVE it. It is Howard Dean who will ultimately "damage the Democratic Party" if nominated, and the damage may be irreparable.

[polpilot]

49. I support the pro-war democrats right to promote war. Pro-war democrats

like Kerry should enjoy freedom to express their pro war views.

Dean '04...

[dogman]

44. Actually the best

Just a quick aside. I'm a member of the Phi Zappa Krappa fraternity myself. I looked to Kerry early on but he never got traction. I had admired the honesty of Clark's analysis on CNN and was eager to join his movement when it became a reality. He just inspires me more. If Kerry gets the early polls and Clark doesn't, I would quite readily support him to save the Democratic Party. It isn't just the further erosion of Congress but also the Supreme Court as well as the rest of the judiciary. As far as on the job training I feel Clark's administrative experience puts him ahead of a senator whose experience definitely qualifies him to be President of the Senate.Save our Party-stop Dean before B*** does.

[Sully]

34. BTW

Prestidigitation:

From The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition

1. Performance of or skill in performing magic or conjuring tricks with the hands; sleight of hand.

2. A show of skill or deceitful cleverness.

---------------------------
From Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998:

Legerdemain; sleight of hand; juggling.

---------------------------
From WordNet ® 1.6, © 1997 Princeton University:

Manual dexterity in the execution of tricks

[Duder]

36. BTW

Sully Posted: Dec 24 2003, 7:09 PM
I posted it on DU! Watch the fireworks there!
http://forum.johnkerry.com//index.php?showtopic=1432&st=45

Fireworks -
a. An exciting or spectacular display, as of musical virtuosity.
b. A display of rage or fierce contention.
Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition. Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.

What a dud.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Duder]

39. More like on the rocks

A few bitter posters whose salvation is the delusion that their phoenix will rise from the ashes because of loathsome pugnacity.
At this late date, nothing but contemptible rationalizations to justify their odious behavior and Bush-lite protestations.

Perhaps the Massachusetts Senator deserved better supporters... perhaps not.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mouse7]

41. I'd just post Kerry 60% absentee rate from Senate votes

Watch people wander out of your forum bummed.

Posting absentee rates isn't exciting, but efficient.

[polpilot]

47. I'd rather an absent senator than a pro-war vote.

Dean '04....

[Beearewhyain]

42. I Know I am a newbie and as such...

Don’t carry much weight but is this what we have come to as Dems? I just hate it when we live up to the stereotypes that wingnut radio/TV vomits over the airways; that is to say we are completely divided. I would like to think that we all realize that many of us will be disappointed with the ultimate nominee but that is, and has always been the nature of the nomination beast. WE have bigger problems than finding the ideologically perfect candidate; WE don’t even have a seat at the (legislative, executive, judicial) table. Maybe it is just me but I know I would feel damn silly having to back a presidential candidate that I spent the whole nomination process bashing relentlessly. Truth be told I don’t think a damn one of them is perfect but come time for the presidential election my vote is going for the person with a “(D)” next to their name.

[LA4Kerry]

43. Getting it right

"come time for the presidential election my vote is going for the person with a “(D)” next to their name."

Well, of course.

But that alone is not enough to defeat GWB. Our candidate will need the support of independents, moderates, Greens, Libertarians, etc. in order to win.

This is where John Kerry is a superior candidate to Howard Dean (and the rest of the field).

No other candidate can equal JK's combination of foreign policy experience, his military record, and his excellent record on domestic issues (such as the environment, education, health care, etc.)

We HAVE to make sure we nominate the BEST candidate -- Kerry '04!

[dogman]

45. This is the problem

The candidate with the D next to his name has to be electable or we lose more than just the Presidency. We can't survive with physician assisted suicide. At least now the Senate has barely saved us with the filibuster. There are to many Senate seats at stake for a '72 style landslide against us. I have been a lifelong Democrat and have seen the power come and go. I have no need to put a cult leader ahead of the Party.

[Duder]

46. I agree.

I think that some of these old dogs whose tails keep wagging when barking
will be looking like little lost pups with their tails tucked in before long.

Welcome to DU Beearewhyain!

:toast:

[dogman]

48. The big d

I guess it just takes pretzel logic to follow all the twists and turns Dean takes on the issues. The main problem as we have seen is it can take more than a simple majority to win an election. 25% of the electorate is simply not enough to win. If I were willing to lose I would support the candidate who best represents my values, Dennis Kucinich. I'm old enough to know I live in the real world and the most important thing at this time is the defeat of B***. That means I have to be realistic and support a candidate who can win and function as a President.

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mouse7]

51. You won't answer the absentee question here. Why bother there?

Over 60% missed votes.

Nothing to argue. It's blantant irresponsibility that cannot be argued.

[Sully]

53. Where did you get that number?

I'll debate that right now. So are you referring to Kerry's voting record while campaigning, or over the last 4 years? Actually I think that 60% number is fictional and I would expect to see a SOURCE if I was going to debate a FACT!

Kerry's voting participation according to Project Vote Smart:
(you can look it up!)

Roll Call Vote Analysis
Year Voting Participation
2002 96%
2001 98%
2000 95%
1999 99%

[Sully]

52. I so totally agree!

Notes:
1. I support Kerry!

2. I like Clark

3. My war views are best expressed by Dennis!

4. I like it that Edwards came from a working class family.

5. Al Sharpton has it zingin' on Bush!

6. Don't count out old Gep...

7. I don't like Dean's lying about his stand on the war and attacking his opponents over it (and completly unjustifiably Dennis), his draft dodging and his hidden records and his dodgy stand on medicare, and repealing the middle class tax cuts and can you say UNELECTABLE? That's why I made the poster, and anyone but Dean believers know it's true.

[Beearewhyain]

56. Thank You all for Your comments

First off I would like to say thanks for the welcome Duder.

For a point of clarity I would just like to say that I am a Clark supporter based largely on the "elect-ability" argument but I have not cast my vote yet and anything could happen. However, the point I was trying to make was that it is well within my ability to accept and even work for and support a Dean candidacy. Any of those running will have my support if they win (grudgingly, even Lieberman). Overall I would would just prefer a less "all or nothing" attitude within these discussion threads and a more legitimate debate on the points. For example, rather than saying that "you must be a warmonger for supporting a general" or "Clark is a warmonger" say something like "In my point a view a former general would not have the best interest for peace in mind if he was President". Kind of the same thing but it raises a point of debate rather than an attack. In my belief, this rule of civility can be applied to all candidates; we would do well to leave the hyperbole alone.

BTW, sorry for the delay, as you can tell I am not a prolific poster.