Dean's progressively lousy record - Dean = Bush

[Jeff002]

I'm a frustrated democrat again this time around, and it's for the same reason as back in 2000. People who pose themselves as activists for the issues of the left, label themselves supporters of democracy, yet who are anything but. Back in 2000, we had Nader, who was found to be an out and out hypocrite and liar.. this time around we have Howard Dean. My frustration comes from the right wing controlled media who latched onto Dean as soon as Rove annointed him the candidate of choice.. and now Dean gets top billing at every possible opportunity. No one discusses the fact that his record in Vermont is not the great feat he claims it to be. His legacy in that state is grossly substandard care for the needy, there is no real prescription drug plan in place, schools are woefully underfunded.. the economy is bad everywhere, but in Vermont, it was just as bad in the '90s for the poor as it is now for everyone else. Yet Dean is lauded as a wunderkind, and it's undeserved. He attempts to manipulate the discussion of the primary, by attacking first and ever the bully, cries foul when his opponents rebut his accusations. He's helped in this endeavor by a press that delights in trashing democrats like John Kerry, Dick Gephardt, John Edwards and others.

Of course, should Dean win the nomination, then the republicans will take off the kid gloves and Dean will get the hosing he really richly deserves.. but that won't help us. The information on Dean is out there.. for anyone willing to use the internet for research. Here are some of the things I've found to start with.

Dean backs rationing medical care in Vermont
By John Zicconi (sorry if the url is so long, the site seems to be down and the only hard copy I found online is the cached version on google.com. I have hyperlinked it to my name if that's easier for you.)
http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:dIXubTUiHgIJ:www.stowereporter.com/community/dean39.shtml+stowereporter+Dean+ration&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
(10/02/00) Vermont. - "Patients should be told to take their business elsewhere if they objected," he said, before a gathering at the Stowe Mountain Resort last week. "Doing this would be controversial, Dean acknowledged. But it would help small businesses by containing health-care costs," he said.

Of course, 2 days after he made the above announcement Dean, made this announcement:
Dean promises health coverage for all by 2002
October 4, 2000 By FREDERICK BEVER Vermont Press Bureau http://rutlandherald.nybor.com/News/State/Story/13593.html

Dental care for low-income residents abysmal, Sanders says February 4, 2001 By MIKE ECKEL AP
http://rutlandherald.nybor.com/News/State/Story/19669.html

And here's a real kicker.. this was just announced yesterday.. further confirmation about the hole Dean has left Vermont in..
Vermont’s working poor to be billed for Medicaid By DARREN M. ALLEN Vermont Press Bureau
October 14, 2003
http://www.rutlandherald.com/News/Story/73093.html

A Special Report about Governor Howard Dean's Agriculture Department - From Vermonters for a Clean Environment, Inc. March 20, 2002
http://www.vtce.org/deancrisisagvt.html
Why isn't Vermont taking renewable energy seriously? (Dean rejects windpower push's coal) by Sam Corner
http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/Columnists/Sam/0324045549.htm

Governor Howard Dean talks about coal-fired power plant By Nancy Bazilchuk Free Press Staff Writer
N.H. environmentalists worry about coal-fired plant in Vermont
By J.M. Hirsch, Associated Press, 3/21/2001
Dean calls for new coal-fired power plant in Vermont, later backs off
By David Gram, Associated Press, 3/21/2001
Why is Gov. Dean brushing aside strategies for energy conservation?
Dean replacing critics on environmental advisory panel April 8, 2001,
public.http://www.vtce.org/deanoncoal.html

Nearly a fifth of the roughly $111,000 collected in its first months by Dean's presidential political action committee, the Fund for a Healthy America, came from people with ties to Vermont's electric utilities. (AP, 2.27.02)
Over the years, the governor has sided with the utilities on many of the most pressing issues, including the push for deregulation of the electric industry. (AP, 2.27.02)

Over the years, Gov. Dean has sided with the utilities on many of the most pressing issues, including the push for deregulation of the electric industry, and later backing away from that as a goal. (AP, 2.27.02)

Dean was sued by several newspapers to release his daily schedules (hiding meetings with IBM and other execs). (RHO, 4.23.02)

In answer to the question "Who would be your model as a vice president?" Dean replied: "Dick Cheney." (NYT, 7.14.02)

Dean on civil liberties
http://rutlandherald.com/Archive/Articles/Article/31792

Here's something else I found, further confirmation on Dean's corruption, The Time's Argus report of the energy companies who have been funding Dean's PAC. No ties to special interests, eh?

Dean raises money from energy sources
February 27, 2002 By David Gram
http://timesargus.nybor.com/Legislature/Story/43125.html

So Deanies, tell us how Dean is going to fight for you, maybe he'll fight for you if you're a wealthy CEO.. and you line his pockets. If you happen to be sincere, you honestly need to evaluate your reasoning for supporting a Howard Dean who is every bit as bad as Bush.

I would like you to take the time to evaluate Howard Dean's real record on the environment, which his campaign works hard to hide from the public. Dean is no environmentalist, he's no man for the people. Read the articles, etc.. on the sites I list below. There are also quotes with sources, for example, AP for AP wire w/dates of articles. You might have to pay for the articles unless you have access to lexus-nexus.

A Special Report about Governor Howard Dean's Agriculture Department - From Vermonters for a Clean Environment, Inc. March 20, 2002
http://www.vtce.org/deancrisisagvt.html
Why isn't Vermont taking renewable energy seriously? (Dean rejects windpower push's coal) by Sam Corner
http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/Columnists/Sam/0324045549.htm

Governor Howard Dean talks about coal-fired power plant By Nancy Bazilchuk Free Press Staff Writer
N.H. environmentalists worry about coal-fired plant in Vermont
By J.M. Hirsch, Associated Press, 3/21/2001
Dean calls for new coal-fired power plant in Vermont, later backs off
By David Gram, Associated Press, 3/21/2001
Why is Gov. Dean brushing aside strategies for energy conservation?
Dean replacing critics on environmental advisory panel April 8, 2001,
public.http://www.vtce.org/deanoncoal.html

Nearly a fifth of the roughly $111,000 collected in its first months by Dean's presidential political action committee, the Fund for a Healthy America, came from people with ties to Vermont's electric utilities. (AP, 2.27.02)
Over the years, the governor has sided with the utilities on many of the most pressing issues, including the push for deregulation of the electric industry. (AP, 2.27.02)

Over the years, Gov. Dean has sided with the utilities on many of the most pressing issues, including the push for deregulation of the electric industry, and later backing away from that as a goal. (AP, 2.27.02)

Dean was sued by several newspapers to release his daily schedules (hiding meetings with IBM and other execs). (RHO, 4.23.02)

In answer to the question "Who would be your model as a vice president?" Dean replied: "Dick Cheney." (NYT, 7.14.02)

Dean on civil liberties
http://rutlandherald.com/Archive/Articles/Article/31792

Published on Monday, April 14, 2003 by CommonDreams.org
As Baghdad Falls Howard Dean Folds Back into the National Security Establishment
by Charles Knight

"In effect this supposedly 'anti-war' Democrat has announced his support for a policy in which Washington will decide which countries are allowed to have nuclear weapons and will reserve for itself the right to forcefully disarm those who do not voluntarily disarm by U.S. dictate. In this crucial regard Dean's position is in close accordance with the Bush doctrine of coercive disarmament and preventive war."
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0414-09.htm
I would like you to take the time to evaluate Howard Dean's real record on the environment, which his campaign works hard to hide from the public. Dean is no environmentalist, he's no man for the people. Read the articles, etc.. on the sites I list below. There are also quotes with sources, for example, AP for AP wire w/dates of articles. You might have to pay for the articles unless you have access to lexus-nexus.

Published on Monday, April 14, 2003 by CommonDreams.org
As Baghdad Falls Howard Dean Folds Back into the National Security Establishment
by Charles Knight

"In effect this supposedly 'anti-war' Democrat has announced his support for a policy in which Washington will decide which countries are allowed to have nuclear weapons and will reserve for itself the right to forcefully disarm those who do not voluntarily disarm by U.S. dictate. In this crucial regard Dean's position is in close accordance with the Bush doctrine of coercive disarmament and preventive war."
http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0414-09.htm

On January 31, Dean told Ron Brownstein of the Los Angeles Times that "if Bush presents what he considered to be persuasive evidence that Iraq still had weapons of mass destruction, he would support military action, even without U.N. authorization."

On Feb. 20, Dean told Salon.com that "if the U.N. in the end chooses not to enforce its own resolutions, then the U.S. should give Saddam
30 to 60 days to disarm, and if he doesn't, unilateral action is a regrettable, but unavoidable, choice."

Dean’s Rhetorical Twister By Jim Geraghty
http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-geraghty032803.asp

"Dean has won cheers from Democratic audiences by saying he would not have voted for the war resolution his congressional rivals helped pass, saying it is "the wrong war at the wrong time." But he has said he would support military action if it was proved Iraq had WMD and refused to disarm within 60 days.
Axelrod said Dean has not always been clear about his own position, pointing to his refusal to say whether the troops should be pulled out of Iraq at a Wednesday night appearance in Boston.
Last week, Dean told reporters in Washington the troops must stay and finish the fight now that they are on the ground. " Source: http://www.primarymonitor.com/news/stories2003/nh__war_democrats_2003.shtml

[unfrigginreal]

1. You shouldn't hold back so much just because it's your first post.

n/t

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[RUMMYisFROSTED]

24. Do you believe?

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[lapauvre]

196. Imagine that! Lol!

From what cesspool of vitriol did this person describe Dean?

Truthfully, I don't think a lot of Dean's campaign, but he is
mean enough to win.  

I have more to say, but I think I will make it in an original
post.  Don't want it to get lost as a response.

But, in closing, there is something suspicious about both Dean
and Clark.  Clark came out a bit too fast, from a bit too
small a base, and has been overblown.  He shrinks more every
time I hear him speak.

Dean, with great innovation, took to the internet, and touched
home base with a lot of voiceless people.  WE then began to
watch Dean.

Haven't looked up his home state record, but I have noted the
percentages he gives for medical care for children and
elderly.  99% of children is not enough.  And 30 something %
of elderly getting their medications is not enough.  So, I
question him, but.....

(actually, this is helping me think this out...)

We democrats have to deal with reality.  Reality is, in
America at this time, money rules, idealism is out, and nice
guys finish last.
I hated typing that, but it is true.

Will elaborate on an original post.

[Name removed]

198. Deleted message

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[dad]

3. Ralph Nader is like a saint coming down to earth and live amongst us

The man in incorruptible and stands above all other politicians like a god looking down on his subjects.

[DJcairo]

59. Yea, except when he made Bush our President

[UnapologeticLiberal]

90. I assume you are being sarcastic

Either that or you are unaware that despite his railings about corporate money in politics, most of his ads in 2000 were financed by the RNC.

Mousepads, Shoe Leather, and Hope

[Jim Sagle]

4. This thread ain't nuthin' but shit.

[AP]

5. There's nothing wrong with this post. It's a list of articles that, when..

...you put them together, support a coherent argument about the candidate. There's nothing in here which hasn't been said by someone else.

It's fine to bring this stuff up.

(Incidentally, today I posted something about how Dean's postion on Iraq wasn't clear. Someone wrote back something like, "yes it is". I challenged anyone to state his position. Although that thread got over 60 posts, nobody bothered trying to explain Dean's postition.)

[unfrigginreal]

6. Gee AP, after all of your paranoia over Anti-Clark press...

it's good to see that you're not nearly as upset when it's another candidate. I was really getting worried about the way you were freaking out, now that I see that no principles were involved I can rest easier.

[AP]

7. I feel pretty good about the Clark stuff, after seeing the Joe Conason...

...article which cited the NPR story which set me off earlier this week.

If Joe Conason is paranoid, then I'm in good company.

As you know, I'm sure, my paranoia has two parts, and this is the other part. Clark gets torn down in a very underhanded way, yet Dean gets a pass on these issues.

I'm looking for an honest debate. Less bs about Clark, and less bs about Dean.

[ModerateMiddle]

54. The standard answer isn't just "yes it is"

You have to add on the typical assertions like,

"Yes it is and the American people are going to recognize it and bow down like we do!"

[gully]

62. I'll explain Deans position..

Dean said.

If Saddam Hussein was 'proven' to have WMD ie. nukes etc. and thusly was a threat to the US ... then, we should give Saddam (via the UN) 60 days to rid himself of said nukes or we would maintain the right to protect our nation.

There are several articles where Dean makes that hypothetical clear. And, in all of said articles, Dean maintained that BUSH NEVER MADE A CASE FOR WAR (PERIOD)... Dean said over and over again, this is the wrong war at the wrong time.

Never waffled, was always consistant.

The 60 day response was given when reporters repeatedly asked Dean 'under what circumstances' would he feel it appropriate to defend ourselves against Saddam Hussein.

It has since been spun on several occasions.

Here is the quote from the 'so called' case made above.

"But he has said he would support military action if it was proved Iraq had nuclear weapons and refused to disarm within 60 days."

How many people would have been comfortable with Saddam having nukes? Not I...

It's also interesting to note that after Dean laid out the criteria Bush bit aka lied, and it very well may be the end of the Bushies.

In spite of Bush and Powells sad attempt at stating Saddam was hiding WMD's, Dean like the rest of us, said over and over again. "The President has not made the case for war."

[Octafish]

33. Truth Hurts.

Especially when your candidate has been painting himself as the one who represents "The Democratic Wing of the Democratic Party."

Yoh-K. Here's what Ted Rall has to say about the phony fellah:

LOVE ME, I'M (NOT REALLY) A LIBERAL

Liberal Democrats Project Their Desires onto Howard Dean

EXCERPT...

If elected, Dean says, he plans "to do what Clinton did in 1993. We need to make a genuine effort to start to balance the budget to restore investor confidence. The second thing I would do is to support the small-business community." Some leftie! Like Clinton, he'll clean up the Republican deficit, making it impossible to fund Democratic social programs. He's pro-defense and pro-business. He's committed to the environment but he'll likely disappoint liberals on health care, taxes and trade.

CONTINUED...

http://www.livejournal.com/community/kucinich/1219.html

[KaraokeKarlton]

35. Excuse me, but when did "Democrat" start meaning "ultral liberal"?

At what point did the definition change? I'm really quite lost on this one. I have heard so many supporters of other candidates whine that Dean "misled" voters by using that line. I say that's complete and utter bullshit. Saying you represent the Democratic Wing of the Democratic Party doesn't mean you represent only the far left of the party. It just means you represent Democrats instead of being Bush's freaking lap dog. Why is that so difficult for some to understand?

:eyes:

[Octafish]

48. Paul Wellstone made the line famous. Dean stole it.

Paul Wellstone was a Liberal Senator from Minnesota. You may have heard of him. He died in a plane crash just before the 2002 election.

Sen. Wellstone brought a lot of attention to the Democratic Wing of the Democratic Party by using the line because it helped excite the CORE of the party — those people who really believe in LIBERAL ideas, the most important of which is that government power should be used to make life better for ALL Americans.

A short while after Sen. Wellstone's death, ex-governor ex-doctor ex-stockbroker Dean stole the phrase. When Wellstone's former staff noted that Dean used it without attribution, Dean started to credit Wellstone. By then many people had come to believe that Dean actually represented the Democratic Wing of the Democratic Party — the LIBERAL WING.

[KaraokeKarlton]

72. So Wellstone owns the copyright on the quote then?

And when he used it he clearly stated that he was only representing liberals? If you're going to piss and moan over the quote then you really need to prove beyond a reasonable doubt the EXACT meaning of the quote in Wellstone's own words and show me the copyright information that shows quote ownership.

Christ Almighty, this stupid argument is just as bad as Fox News getting their panties all in a wad over anyone else using "Fair and Balanced".

[Octafish]

86. No copyright, it's public domain. Problem is Dean misrepresents...

... himself. He uses the phrase and gets people to believe he's a liberal or a progressive, what I call a real Democrat — like Paul Wellstone.

Sure, conservative Democrats like Dean are entitled to say whatever they want, as you've so well argued, KaraokeKarlton. Continuing your line of reasoning, to be most accurate the phrase Dean should use to describe himself perfectly is Bush-Lite.

[KaraokeKarlton]

113. This is quite silly...

Him using that line didn't lead me to believe he was a liberal. And for crying out loud it takes all of 5 minutes to go to his website and look at his Vermont record. None of Dean's supporters think he's a liberal. The liberals who support Dean don't do so out of some mistaken belief that he is a liberal. They support him because he is standing up to the opposition without any shame or second thoughts. He's saying what needs to be said, getting people to think and forcing the rest of the Democratic party to get off their duffs and challenge the status quo.

So the hell what if Dean said something that YOU think implies he's a liberal? Do you honestly believe that people are so stupid as to just support someone over one sentence they say without looking at his actual record? This whining by some people about this one sentence is about the lamest, most inane complaint I've seen to date. Anyone who does this is under the impression that Dean has "fooled" or "tricked" people into supporting him and that's just complete and utter BS. Dean's supporters know his record, know his views and they support him for a lot of reasons, but that one comment you're upset about has nothing to do with it.

[Octafish]

121. No, it's important. Dean is Bush Lite.

With all DU respect, KK:

What I think doesn't matter. My point, and the point of the original post, is JUST as you've been arguing: Dean is no Liberal. In fact, his positions are closer to Bushler's than to a Liberal Democrat. It's ironic, considering what Dean has called the real Liberals in this race — B-U-S-H L-I-T-E.

That's just the way it is. And no offense intended. It's just politics.

So, to recap: if Dean is no Liberal, he, must be a centrist. That's odd because a centrist, by definition, is middle of the road.

Here's what Eisenhower said about centrists:

"People who go down the middle of the road have a yellow stripe down the middle of their back."

[KaraokeKarlton]

139. Calling Dean "Bush-Lite" doesn't bother Dean supporters, you know

The "Bush Lite" label only bothers the supporters of candidates who actually pander to Bush. Dean hasn't done that and everyone knows it. If it weren't for Howard Dean's criticism of Bush, none of the others would dare to say a word. Dean made it "safe" for them, he paved the way.

Dean criticized Bush on Iraq back when it wasn't at all popular to do so...you know, back when Kerry was voting for that blank check.

[Octafish]

195. Too bad. It should.

No matter how much Dean talks about bashing Bushler — which is about the best thing he's ever done as a poltician — his supporters will be shocked when they discover he really is closer to Bush than a Liberal Democrat. That's why Dean is Bush-Lite.

[KaraokeKarlton]

211. Yawn

n/t

[no name no slogan]

223. I respectfully disagree....

I have had a number of conversation with Dean "supporters" who bandwagon-hopped his campaign circa the start of the Iraq Debacle. Most of them have projected onto Dean a much more liberal position and philosophy than he himself holds. I'm sure quite a bit of this had to do with him being "the only candidate who opposed the war in Iraq".

Now, that isn't true of ALL his supporters-- like the ones on DU, who tend to be the most well-informed and well-spoken supporters. Many of his "casual" supporters are not entirely aware of his positions on several key issues like health care, foreign policy, pentagon funding, social spending, gay marriage, etc. I have talked to quite a few of these "supporters" who were not aware of Dean's positions, and were suprised to find out where he really stands.

With the exception of Clark (where NOBODY knows where he stands, because he hasn't published positions yet), I've found this to be most true with Dean's supporters, as opposed to Liebermann's, Kerry's, or Gephardt's.

[Castilleja]

111. Yep, Jim Sagle, you got that right...

and it's getting old.....

[Jeff002]

128. Yeah, that's what the anti free speech crowd sez when they need to censor

the truth coming out. For something that's just "shit", and "getting old", it's sure got your panty's in a bunch.

Deaner is Bush lite, he's trying to divide the democratic party, and yes, the democratic party is all inclusive.. don't use repuke terminology to define us. We invented the term liberal. Even the most moderate democrat cares passionately about civil rights, freedom and equality.

[displacedtexan]

9. can anyone refute the above statements with comparable articles?

if not, then then we need to be prepared for the bushies to chew dean up and spit him out if he (dean) gets te nomination. is this why they want him to be the dem nominee?
i'm truly worried now:
most of dean's contributions are small amounts of money from people who don't have much to spare;
i'm afraid that those same supporters won't be able to fund a campaign against the repube war chest and media control.

dean supporters (and all dems) must start refuting the above statements now. it's our only hope. we must defend all dem candidates, in order to be prepared for the bushies in '04!

[wyldwolf]

12. No, what they'll do is...

...decide among themselves what they think Dean actually meant. Then they'll claim the quotes were taken out of context, paraphrased, one more example of how everyone is out to get Dean, etc.

Then, all that will be repeated and spread out among the Deanies.

And, finally, whenever those points are made again, they'll say all that has already been debunked.

[Rose Siding]

20. ROFL You're probably right!

Arguing context and meaning is frequently found on DU.


"Here is a quote taken out of context from Howard Dean, praising George W. Bush's war in Afghanistan."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=553812#top

[wyldwolf]

88. Yes... even when I plainly said it was out of context...

... Dean supporters jumped into full spin mode.

[Rose Siding]

102. Yes, in defense of Clark...

for a comment you felt may have been taken out of context, I believe.

[wyldwolf]

106. It was estasblished the Clark comment was taken out of context...

...Drudge reported that Time magazine had a video and the Clark quote was taken from the video - out of context because neither Drudge, Time, or anyone at DU revealed the rest of the comments on the video.

So by you saying I "felt" Clark's comment was taken out of context leads me to believe you might thing it wasn't - although it clearly was.

And, if you'll look at the original thread, it was a Dean supporter who posted the Clark thread, condemned him for the comments, and others jumped in to condemn him as well.

[Jeff002]

129. No other candidate but Dean needs a special defense force,

well, Bush does, he calls him Karl Rove..

The Deaners have a front like a cult, there are alot of freepers in attendance as well in the mix. There's nothing they don't try and spin. Dean isn't a dem, he's a repuke pretending to be a dem.

I'm not telling you guys who to vote for, just research the candidates
and vote for the best one on the issues, and who stands the best chance to defeat Bush. We can't cope with four more years. I do have to say though, a vote for Dean is a vote for Bush... cos even if Dean got elected, he'd be as bad as Bush.

[Rose Siding]

147. Because the press is so fair to all the other Dems?

right :eyes:

You've provided nothing that I haven't seen refuted.

Dean has already beat Bush for the Dems, no matter who the candidate.

[Jeff002]

199. Refutation means providing evidence it's false.. that has NOT been done.

Dean hasn't beaten anyone... let alone Bush. National polls show that up against Dean, Bush wins by a hell of a lot. The only ones shown in the same to beat Bush were Clark and Kerry.

You bring up another interesting point though. The press is unbelievably unfair to the dems, yet their treating Dean with kid gloves ever since Rove came out and handpicked him.

[LuminousX]

217. What polls are you looking at? And what refutation really means

And what do those polls really mean at this stage of the game.

It is impossible to refute a false assertion or a half-truth. At those times, the only valid response is to provide the full truth.

I no longer support Dean, but I did take to task many of your accusations in a hope that you won't spam other threads with them.

[w4rma]

14. All this has been refuted before and I don't feel like spending an hour

looking it all up again.

Extremely massive information dump on Gov. Howard Dean, M.D. (v2.0)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=41214

[Jeff002]

130. No, it hasn't been refuted EVER. Dean is Bush.

If it had been refuted, it'd be plastered up big as day on deanforamerikkka. Anyone who asks these questions politely on blogforamerikkka gets labeled a troll and then banned if they keep demanding an answer. The Dean campaign HQ's refuse to answer these questions, Dean freaks out and cries that he's being attacked if he's asked.. face it, you're trying to blow smoke up our collective asses and it aint' working.

The only other candidate who acts this way, is Bush. He was proclaimed an outsider, he was a governor, he had a questionable record, and he likewise sealed up his gubenatorial records tight for ten years to avoid embarassment. Bush like Dean turned a blind eye to corporate pollution, both hate social programs, both don't care for civil rights protections. Both are for tough sentencing of protestors, both are anti marijuana legalization.

[LuminousX]

221. Dean is Bush?

You know, I haven't ever seen them in the same room before. And Bush does support a woman's right to choose, does support civil unions between homosexuals, and is a doctor.

[poskonig]

15. We've refuted this over and over again.

Perhaps we should compile a reply file for this crap, and just and paste spam to reply to the, well, spam.

[dsc]

27. Then we will be accused of plagerizing from ourselves

like those four people were by IndyMedia.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

57. When? Where? do you have a link to the counterarguments?

Do these refutations exist other than in your imagination?

[AP]

22. The big donors aren't going to be thowing good money after bad money

If Dean gets the nomination, the sensible big donors who could see that Clinton was going to win and gave to him rather than Tsongas or Jerry Brown, are not going to give him money, just like they wouldn't have and didn't waste their money on Brown or Tsongas.

[molly]

11. The truth shall make you free

except for the Deanies - they don't want to hear it or read about it. Logic DOES NOT rule with them.

They will not rufute your research because they cannot - it's the truth.

[AP]

25. What's Deans position on Iraq?

A simple question, yet nobody can write two or three sentences explaining it.

The responses to all those articles above should be a simple meta-message. You should be able to answer in a couple sentences, and those sentences should be substatiated by coherent facts (eg, policy engaged in as Governor, and quotes from his entire political career).

The answer, "well look at this massive information dump" is the opposite of a good answer to this issue. The public isn't going figure out Dean's meta message by simply being satisfied with the fact that some anonymous poster on the WWW has a massive information dump.

You need to be able to reduce the policies down to choherent sententces.

[killbotfactory]

29. Deans position on Iraq

Before the War: There is no proof justifying our invasion at this time. There are better ways to disarm Saddam other than unilateral invasion and occupation.

After the War: Bring in the UN troops immediatly. If we abandon Iraq now, we will be at much greater danger in the future due, and the country is now our responsibility.

[DrFunkenstein]

39. You Sound Like A Kerry Fan

Those are precisely his positions. Kudos to you for coming around.

[killbotfactory]

47. No, Kerry supported the invasion.

Dean didn't.

And he went from saying War must be a last resort, to saying he would have preffered more time for inspections but supported Bush disarming of Saddam and saying Saddam brought action on himself.

That said, Saddam Hussein is a tyrant, truly the personification of evil. He has launched two wars of aggression against his neighbors, perpetrated environmental disaster, purposefully destabilized an entire region of the world, murdered tens of thousands of his own citizens, flouted the will of the United Nations and the world in acquiring weapons of mass destruction, conspired to assassinate the former President of the United States, and provided harbor and support to terrorists bent on destroying us and our friends.

From that perspective, regardless of the Administration's mishandling of so much of this situation, no President can defer the national security decisions of this country to the United Nations or any other multilateral institution or individual country.

Even having botched the diplomacy, it is the duty of any President, in the final analysis, to defend this nation and dispel the security threats - threats both immediate and longer term - against it.

Saddam Hussein has brought military action upon himself by refusing for twelve years to comply with the mandates of the United Nations. The brave and capable men and women of our armed forces and those who are with us will quickly , I know, remove him once and for all as a threat to his neighbors, to the world, and to his own people, and I support their doing so.

Q: On March 19 Pres. Bush ordered the invasion of Iraq. Was that the right decision at the right time?

KERRY: I would have preferred if we had given diplomacy a greater opportunity, but I think it was the right decision to disarm Saddam Hussein, and when the president made the decision, I supported him, and I support the fact that we did disarm him.

‘Saddam Hussein made a grave error when he chose to make war with the ultimate weapons-inspections enforcement mechanism,” Mr. Kerry said.

[DrFunkenstein]

65. Nice Cherry Picking of Quotes, But Sorry

On eve of war, Kerry blasts Bush

Wednesday, Mar 19, 2003

U.S. Sen. John Kerry issued an unsparing critique of the Bush administration's diplomatic failures Monday night, after the president delivered his televised ultimatum to Saddam Hussein.

"President Bush has clumsily and arrogantly squandered the post-9/11 support and goodwill of the entire civilized world in a manner that will make the jobs ahead of us - both the military defeat and the rebuilding of Iraq - decidedly more expensive in every sense of that word," Kerry said in a statement released shortly after Bush spoke.

The substance of Kerry's remarks was not new; the Massachusetts Democrat has sharply criticized the president for his handling of the Iraq crisis since last fall. What was remarkable was his timing.

On the eve of war, politicians tend to rally around the flag, if only to avoid being labeled unpatriotic. The other major Democratic presidential candidates have also attacked the administration's diplomatic efforts over the past several months, but on Monday night, they kept their feelings in check.

In his statement, Kerry said the administration's "indifference to diplomacy" had left the country "with vastly reduced influence throughout the world." He said Bush had ignored critical homeland security needs, "doing the job on the fly and on the cheap."

Listing Saddam's crimes against his people, the Middle East and the world community, Kerry declared Saddam "a tyrant, truly the personification of evil" and blamed the dictator for bringing war upon himself.

He said he believed America must defend itself against "threats both immediate and longer term," and he emphasized his support for "the brave and capable men and women of our armed forces." But he blamed the Bush administration for failing to give diplomacy time to work, and for refusing to consider a last-minute proposal by the French to allow the United Nations process an additional 30 days.

"It will take years to repair the needless damage done by this administration, damage to our international standing and moral leadership, to traditional and time-tested alliances, to our relations with the Arab world, ultimately to ourselves," he said.

Judy Reardon, a spokeswoman for the Kerry campaign, said the statement amounted to a summary of his long-held position on the matter.

"Senator Kerry has been entirely consistent throughout this debate," she said.

In a foreign policy speech at Georgetown University in January, for example, Kerry offered a lengthy, harsh critique of the Bush administration's "blustering unilateralism."

And last October, Kerry voted in favor of the congressional resolution authorizing Bush to use force against Iraq - a move that has alienated some anti-war Democrats, but one that Kerry said he felt was necessary to bolster the president's appeal to the United Nations. Despite his vote in favor of the resolution, Kerry stood on the Senate floor and accused the administration of "beginning its public discourse with talk of invasion and regime change."

"They regrettably, and even clumsily, complicated their own case," he said at the time.

But Monday night, war was at hand, and the sobriety of the moment seemed to tame even Bush's noisiest critics. Former Vermont governor Howard Dean, who is widely viewed as the most outspoken anti-war Democratic presidential candidate, issued a statement expressing his support for the U.S. troops and quietly defending the right of all Americans to disagree with the president, even in wartime.

Asked why Dean chose a more subdued message than usual, his spokeswoman Sue Allen said: "The president had just gone on TV and told the U.S. that we were going to war. And it was a grave moment, and so his statement - I don't know if subdued is the right word, but it was a little bit more reflective of the moment and the gravity of the situation."

She declined to comment on Kerry's remarks, but Republicans had plenty to say about them. Julie Teer, a spokeswoman for the Republican State Committee, said Kerry offered "the wrong tone at the wrong time."

"President Bush is uniting America at this critical time; John Kerry is doing the exact opposite," she said. "Not only is John Kerry trying to have it both ways, since he voted for the resolution and since that time he has been trying to mask that, but moreover, it's really unfortunate he's now chosen to turn this into a partisan political issue."

http://www.primarymonitor.com/news/stories2003/031803kerry_2003.shtml

[killbotfactory]

67. Yes, his preference would have been for Bush to do it better.

But he made it clear he supported Bush's decision to invade and put the blame on Saddam.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

94. You've got one opinion about what Kerry means, Kerry has another.

Rather than believe your interpretation of what his words really mean, I'll just assume all the words have their normal meanings.

[killbotfactory]

97. This is what Kerry said

"Saddam Hussein has brought military action upon himself by refusing for twelve years to comply with the mandates of the United Nations. The brave and capable men and women of our armed forces and those who are with us will quickly , I know, remove him once and for all as a threat to his neighbors, to the world, and to his own people, and I support their doing so."

"I would have preferred if we had given diplomacy a greater opportunity, but I think it was the right decision to disarm Saddam Hussein, and when the president made the decision, I supported him, and I support the fact that we did disarm him."

"Saddam Hussein made a grave error when he chose to make war with the ultimate weapons-inspections enforcement mechanism"

It's pretty clear to me.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

103. This is what Dean said

3/18/03
"Tonight, for better or worse, America is at war. Tonight, every American, regardless of party, devoutly supports the safety and success of our men and women in the field. Those of us who, over the past 6 months, have expressed deep concerns about this President’s management of the crisis, mistreatment of our allies and misconstruction of international law, have never been in doubt about the evil of Saddam Hussein or the necessity of removing his weapons of mass destruction.
http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/000395.html

It's pretty clear to me. Dean is talking about the neccesity of removing Saddam's WMD. And how did Dean want these WMDs removed?

2/20/03
He gets a deluge of phone calls from reporters asking him to clarify his position. Which is -- "as I've said about eight times today," he says, annoyed -- that Saddam must be disarmed, but with a multilateral force under the auspices of the United Nations. If the U.N. in the end chooses not to enforce its own resolutions, then the U.S. should give Saddam 30 to 60 days to disarm, and if he doesn't, unilateral action is a regrettable, but unavoidable, choice.
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2003/02/20/dean/index2.html

So Dean believed Saddam had WMDs, and he supported attacking unilaterally under certain conditions, believed those conditions hadn't been met, but wished the troops well.

Kerry: 3/18/03

Yet the Administration's handling of the run up to war with Iraq could not possibly have been more inept or self-defeating. President Bush has clumsily and arrogantly squandered the post 9/11 support and goodwill of the entire civilized world in a manner that will make the jobs ahead of us -- both the military defeat and the rebuilding of Iraq -- decidedly more expensive in every sense of that word.

The Administration's indifference to diplomacy and the manner in which it has treated friend and foe alike over the past several months have left this country with vastly reduced influence throughout the world, made impossible the assembly of a broad, multinational effort against Saddam Hussein, and dramatically increased the costs of fulfilling our legitimate security obligations at home and around the world....

<snip>

My strong personal preference would have been for the Administration -- like the Administration of George Bush, Sr. -- to have given diplomacy more time, more commitment, a real chance of success. In my estimation, giving the world thirty additional days for additional real multilateral coalition building -- a real summit, not a five hour flyby with most of the world's powers excluded -- would have been prudent and no impediment to our military situation, an assessment with which our top military brass apparently agree. Unfortunately, that is an option that has been disregarded by President Bush.
http://www.vote-smart.org/speech_detail.php?speech_id=M000003667


Kerry 10/9/03
"Mr. President, I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force - if necessary - to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security and that of our allies in the Persian Gulf region. And I will vote "yes" because on the question of how best to hold Saddam Hussein accountable, the Administration, including the President, recognizes that war must be our last option to address this threat, not the first, and that we should be acting in concert with allies around the globe to make the world's case against Saddam Hussein. As the President made clear earlier this week, "Approving this resolution does not mean that military action is imminent or unavoidable." It means that "America speaks with one voice."

Let me be clear: I am voting to give this authority to the President for one reason and one reason only: to disarm Iraq of weapons of mass destruction if we cannot accomplish that objective through new tough weapons inspections. In giving the President this authority, I expect him to fulfill the commitments he has made to the American people in recent days - to work with the United Nations Security Council to adopt a new resolution setting out "tough, immediate" inspections requirements and to "act with our allies at our side" if we have to disarm Saddam Hussein by force.

If he fails to do so, I will be the first to speak out. If we do go to war with Iraq, it is imperative that we do so in concert with others in the international community.

The Administration may not be in the habit of building coalitions, but that is what they need to do - and it is what can be done. If we go it alone without reason, we risk inflaming an entire region and breeding a new generation of terrorists, a new cadre of anti-American zealots - and we will be less secure, not more secure, at the end of the day, even with Saddam Hussein disarmed. Let there be no doubt or confusion as to where I stand: I will support a multilateral effort to disarm Iraq by force, if we have exhausted all other options. But I cannot - and will not - support a unilateral, US war against Iraq unless the threat is imminent and no multilateral effort is possible."
http://www.johnkerry.com/news/speeches/spc_2002_1009.html

[killbotfactory]

105. Yes.

He would support unilateral war in the case of a clear threat to the US and if the UN refused to act, and he said that has never been the case. Before and after the war. Therefor, our invasion was unjustified. I believe that's what I said to begin with.

Kerry said he would have preferred more diplomacy but supported Bush's decision anyway.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

108. And once the troops were rolling to Baghdad

Democratic presidential hopeful Howard Dean, whose candidacy has attracted a lot of attention because of his staunch anti-war position, said Wednesday he will tone down his criticism of President Bush in the weeks ahead.

"It's hard to criticize the president when you've got troops in the field," the former Vermont governor said during a two-day campaign swing through South Carolina to raise money and meet with potential supporters and party activists.

"We all have got to support the troops. They didn't send themselves over there, and they're doing their jobs for the country."

But in an interview with The State newspaper, Dean stressed he's not changing his position on the Iraqi war, which he still thinks will get the United States into serious trouble.

<snip>

The 54-year-old physician has criticized his rivals for the nomination, saying everyone is afraid of taking Democratic positions.

"A timid messenger is a losing messenger," he said.
Dean to ease up on Bush



Senator John F. Kerry said yesterday that President Bush committed a ''breach of trust'' in the eyes of many United Nations members by going to war with Iraq, creating a diplomatic chasm that will not be bridged as long as Bush remains in office.

''What we need now is not just a regime change in Saddam Hussein and Iraq, but we need a regime change in the United States,'' Kerry said in a speech at the Peterborough Town Library.

Despite pledging two weeks ago to cool his criticism of the administration once war began, Kerry unleashed a barrage of criticism as US troops fought within 25 miles of Baghdad.
Kerry Says US Needs Its Own Regime Change



Presidential candidate John Kerry said Monday that democracy affords rival Democrats the right to criticize President Bush even with the nation at war.

The Massachusetts senator has come under a withering attack from Republicans for suggesting that the United States, like Iraq, needs a regime change. Traveling through Iowa, Kerry rejected what he called "phony arguments" from the GOP that political candidates should mute their criticism of the commander in chief.

"This is a democracy," Kerry said. "We could be at war a year from now. Would we put the election on hold?"

Kerry voted last fall for a congressional resolution granting Bush the authority to use military force to oust Saddam Hussein and disarm Iraq, but he has been sharply critical of the Bush administration's diplomatic efforts to assemble a coalition of allies. Last week, Kerry's regime change comment drew fire from top congressional Republicans who said the remarks were highly inappropriate with U.S. troops fighting overseas.

Since then, Kerry, a decorated Vietnam War veteran, has defended himself, arguing that unlike his Republican critics, he fought for his right to speak freely. At an elementary school in Iowa, he reminded his listeners of that past conflict and the political dynamic.

"We had an election in the middle of the Vietnam War," Kerry said. "It was the center of that election."

The lawmaker argued that the disparate views of Democrats should be central to the 2004 election, including where the candidates' stand on how the war is being conducted.

"Let's not have a lot of phony arguments here about what we can and can't talk about," Kerry said. "We need to talk in America about the things that make us strong as a country."
Kerry Stands By Bush Criticism

[killbotfactory]

109. So...

Dean said the war would get us into trouble and was still against it, although he said we should support our troops since they didn't send themselves there.

Kerry said we need a regime change in Iraq, was critical of Bush, and didn't say the invasion was wrong.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

115. Dean supported unilaterally invading Iraq. Dean believed Bush on WMDs.

Dean:Saddam must be disarmed, but with a multilateral force under the auspices of the United Nations. If the U.N. in the end chooses not to enforce its own resolutions, then the U.S. should give Saddam 30 to 60 days to disarm, and if he doesn't, unilateral action is a regrettable, but unavoidable, choice.
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2003/02/20/dean/index2.html

Kerry: "If we go it alone without reason, we risk inflaming an entire region and breeding a new generation of terrorists, a new cadre of anti-American zealots - and we will be less secure, not more secure, at the end of the day, even with Saddam Hussein disarmed. Let there be no doubt or confusion as to where I stand: I will support a multilateral effort to disarm Iraq by force, if we have exhausted all other options. But I cannot - and will not - support a unilateral, US war against Iraq unless the threat is imminent and no multilateral effort is possible." http://www.johnkerry.com/news/speeches/spc_2002_1009.html




Dean:"In Iraq, I would be prepared to go ahead without further Security Council backing if it were clear the threat posed to us by Saddam Hussein was imminent, and could neither be contained nor deterred."
http://www.gwu.edu/~action/2004/dean/dean021703sp.html

Kerry:"we should be particularly concerned that we do not go alone or essentially alone if we can avoid it, because the complications and costs of post-war Iraq would be far better managed and shared with United Nation's participation. And, while American security must never be ceded to any institution or to another institution's decision, I say to the President, show respect for the process of international diplomacy because it is not only right, it can make America stronger - and show the world some appropriate patience in building a genuine coalition. Mr. President, do not rush to war."
http://www.johnkerry.com/news/speeches/spc_2003_0123.html

Dean:"never been in doubt about the evil of Saddam Hussein or the necessity of removing his weapons of mass destruction."
http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/000395.html

And compare their stances here:

Kerry: "What we need now is not just a regime change in Saddam Hussein and Iraq, but we need a regime change in the United States"
Kerry Says US Needs Its Own Regime Change

Kerry: "This is a democracy, we could be at war a year from now. Would we put the election on hold?" Kerry Stands By Bush Criticism

Dean: "It's hard to criticize the president when you've got troops in the field" Dean to ease up on Bush

After all Kerry was learning about speaking out during wartime while Dean was learning about skiing bumps.

[killbotfactory]

131. Yes, under conditions that Dean says were NOT met

He would support unilateral war. Why do you confuse that with supporting Bush?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

132. You seem to be confusing me with somebody else.

I am only responsible for my own statements. I'm not trying to defend anything someone else has said.

[killbotfactory]

180. What, exactly, is the point of this arguement, then?

Is it that Dean would support unilateral war under certain conditions which weren't met, didn't support the IWR, and didn't support Bush when he invaded? Why is that relevent?

Does that somehow make it the same as Kerry, who said he would only support unilateral war under certain conditions that weren't met, yet voted for a resolution allowing Bush to wage war at any moment, and then supported Bush when he did invade?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

181. I've stated my points. I don't need you to put words in my mouth.

my points

[killbotfactory]

183. That was a question.

I want to know what you meant by your statements, as I apparently do not understand them.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

185. Sorry.

"I want to know what you meant by your statements, as I apparently do not understand them."

Sorry, I've done my best. I have no confidence in my ability to further increase your understanding.

[killbotfactory]

187. You said:

Dean supported unilaterally invading Iraq and believed Bush on WMD.

1. He only supported unilateral invasion in Iraq if there was a proven imminent threat.

2. Dean did not believe Bush on the WMD. He believed Saddam had some, but did not believe Bush's assertions that they were an imminent threat. He wanted proof.

I've repeated this over, and over, and over.

I would like to know why this is relevent to, or the same as, supporting Bush's invasion of Iraq, or it's relation to Kerry's support of Bush's decision to invade and placing the blame for the invasion on Saddam.

I would also like to know why you brought up that Dean and Kerry both pledged to tone down the rhetoric against Bush in respect to our troops in the feild, and what relevence it has to the above points.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

188. If you don't get it yet, fine.

[killbotfactory]

189. It doesn't look like there is much to get.

[Jeff002]

200. Kerry supported more time for weapons inspectors and a UN coalition

We wouldn't have been in this spot if Bush hadn't lied and refused to honor his commitment to work with the UN. Kerry didn't support Bush.

Dean however, made numerous statements that he believed Saddam had WMD, that he believed Bush. Dean's just flip flopping all over the place and his right wing nut friends supplied by Karl Rove just back it up cos it helps Bush.

[MercutioATC]

202. The difference? Kerry voted FOR the IWR.

He had every opportunity to not against it and/or introduce his own legislation. The fact is that Kerry voted for legislation that did nothing to restrain the administration's actions in Iraq. Even an abstention would have been more defensible.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

205. And Dean couldn't vote for it-but that didn't stop him from lying about it

"I'm the only major candidate running, who's in reasonably good shape in the polls, who voted 'No' on the Iraq Resolution."
-Gov. Dean in a speech to the America's Future Campaign, 6/23/03

Apparently, just touting his record isn't enough, Dean feels it neccesary to inflate and distort it as well.

[killbotfactory]

209. What?

Kerrty bought into the UAV, the nuclear program, the chem/bio weapons, everything. He wanted more diplomacy but supported Bush's decision to invade Iraq.

Dean didn't. he thought Saddam had WMD but didn't think there was enough proof justifying either giving the president authority to invade, or the subsequent invasion.

Right wing nut friend supplied by Rove? Bullcrap.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

216. Dean: 30-60 day deadline and then invade unilaterally.

Dean:Saddam must be disarmed, but with a multilateral force under the auspices of the United Nations. If the U.N. in the end chooses not to enforce its own resolutions, then the U.S. should give Saddam 30 to 60 days to disarm, and if he doesn't, unilateral action is a regrettable, but unavoidable, choice.
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2003/02/20/dean/index2.html

Dean:"never been in doubt about the evil of Saddam Hussein or the necessity of removing his weapons of mass destruction."
http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/000395.html

Dean backed invading Iraq unilaterally, and just like Kerry, believed the President did not follow the right course to bring us to war. Dean said on the eve of war that removing Saddam's weapons of mass destruction was a 'neccesity'.

[killbotfactory]

218. ...

Every candidate backed unilaterally action under certain conditions, even Kucinich.

Note: That is not necessarily the same as invasion.

In Dean's case, he would support action if Iraq was a threat to the US, or there was proof Saddam had WMD's and the UN would do nothing about it.

He did not believe Bush had justified unilateral action, and so did not support the president's decision.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

219. Kucinich backed unilaterally invading Iraq? When did he say that?

[killbotfactory]

220. In a Salon.com interview.

If Iraq was an imminent threat he would support attacking.

But he only supported it in a hypothetical scenario. That's different than supporting unilaterally invading Iraq as it happened.

Are there any conditions under which you would support military action against anyone?

There are two conditions. After an attack on our country or an imminent threat backed by incontrovertible evidence. Those would be my foundations of principle. But no such evidence exists in case of Iraq, and Iraq has not attacked our country.

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2003/03/01/kucinich/index2.html

[Feanorcurufinwe]

222. You are totally distorting what Kucinich said.

[killbotfactory]

224. How?

http://www.geocities.com/beagwa/dennis_kucinich.htm

"Unilateral military action by the U.S. against Iraq is unjustified, unwarranted and illegal. The Administration has failed to make the case that Iraq poses an imminent threat to the United States. There is no credible evidence linking Iraq to 9/11. There is no credible evidence linking Iraq to Al Qaeda. Nor is there any credible evidence that Iraq possesses deliverable weapons of mass destruction, or that it intends to deliver them against the United States."

This statement lays out the reasons why unilateral military action is unjustified. I can only assume if the conditions were met (Iraq a proven imminent threat, proven Al Qaeda links) he wouldn't be against unilateral action.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

226. Any honest person can obviously see the distortion

there's no need for me to explain.

[killbotfactory]

227. Oh, playing that game again

:boring:

[Renew Deal]

228. I hadn't seen this before.

hmmm

[ModerateMiddle]

55. Dean's position on Iraq: questions

Before the War: There is no proof justifying our invasion at this time. There are better ways to disarm Saddam other than unilateral invasion and occupation.

What other ways? Does he ever delineate what he would do to contain Saddam instead of military action?

After the War: Bring in the UN troops immediatly. If we abandon Iraq now, we will be at much greater danger in the future due, and the country is now our responsibility.

And what is the good doctor willing to give up to the UN countries from whom he expects to get this support? Has he ever said what he would concede?

[killbotfactory]

56. ...

Working with the UN. Give our allies proof that Iraq has weapons or isn't disarmed, and they'll support more inspections. Unilateral invasion and occupation was not the only way to deal with Saddam.

What did Bush concede? Nothing. Bush refused to even go to the UN until recently.

[DrFunkenstein]

66. You Sound Like A Kerry Supporter

Those are precisely his positions. Kudos to you for coming around.

[killbotfactory]

68. You have Kerry confused with Dean

Kerry backed down because he was afraid the general public wouldn't understand why he opposed the invasion and didn't want to look weak on national security, as well as get the issue off the table. Jim Jordan even said they were glad they could get back to normal issues when everything was looking wonderful for Bush and the statue was toppled. Oops.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

96. No

That is your fantasy interpretion and characterization. Of course no Democratic political operative was happy with the Bush propaganda fest on the April 9th and was happy when it was over.

What was the news about Kerry that was making headlines that week?

Presidential candidate John Kerry said Monday that democracy affords rival Democrats the right to criticize President Bush even with the nation at war.

The Massachusetts senator has come under a withering attack from Republicans for suggesting that the United States, like Iraq, needs a regime change. Traveling through Iowa, Kerry rejected what he called "phony arguments" from the GOP that political candidates should mute their criticism of the commander in chief.

"This is a democracy," Kerry said. "We could be at war a year from now. Would we put the election on hold?"

Kerry voted last fall for a congressional resolution granting Bush the authority to use military force to oust Saddam Hussein and disarm Iraq, but he has been sharply critical of the Bush administration's diplomatic efforts to assemble a coalition of allies. Last week, Kerry's regime change comment drew fire from top congressional Republicans who said the remarks were highly inappropriate with U.S. troops fighting overseas.

Since then, Kerry, a decorated Vietnam War veteran, has defended himself, arguing that unlike his Republican critics, he fought for his right to speak freely. At an elementary school in Iowa, he reminded his listeners of that past conflict and the political dynamic.

"We had an election in the middle of the Vietnam War," Kerry said. "It was the center of that election."

The lawmaker argued that the disparate views of Democrats should be central to the 2004 election, including where the candidates' stand on how the war is being conducted.

"Let's not have a lot of phony arguments here about what we can and can't talk about," Kerry said. "We need to talk in America about the things that make us strong as a country."
Kerry Stands By Bush Criticism

Contrast that with Dean:

Democratic presidential hopeful Howard Dean, whose candidacy has attracted a lot of attention because of his staunch anti-war position, said Wednesday he will tone down his criticism of President Bush in the weeks ahead.

"It's hard to criticize the president when you've got troops in the field," the former Vermont governor said during a two-day campaign swing through South Carolina to raise money and meet with potential supporters and party activists.

"We all have got to support the troops. They didn't send themselves over there, and they're doing their jobs for the country."

But in an interview with The State newspaper, Dean stressed he's not changing his position on the Iraqi war, which he still thinks will get the United States into serious trouble.

<snip>

The 54-year-old physician has criticized his rivals for the nomination, saying everyone is afraid of taking Democratic positions.

"A timid messenger is a losing messenger," he said.
Dean to ease up on Bush

[killbotfactory]

98. He was critical of Bush's diplomatic efforts

Nowhere did I see a quote where Kerry says the invasion is/was wrong.

I see a lot of this, though:

"Saddam Hussein has brought military action upon himself by refusing for twelve years to comply with the mandates of the United Nations. The brave and capable men and women of our armed forces and those who are with us will quickly , I know, remove him once and for all as a threat to his neighbors, to the world, and to his own people, and I support their doing so."

"I would have preferred if we had given diplomacy a greater opportunity, but I think it was the right decision to disarm Saddam Hussein, and when the president made the decision, I supported him, and I support the fact that we did disarm him."

"Saddam Hussein made a grave error when he chose to make war with the ultimate weapons-inspections enforcement mechanism,"

[Feanorcurufinwe]

104. Continue on post 103.

Silly to discuss the same issue in two seperate sub-thread so see post 103.

[mbali]

85. I'm still waiting

for someone to tell us what Dean has actually done to advance the cause of civil rights, other than to talk about talking about race to white people.

[Jeff002]

133. Don't count on getting an answer.. but read this post

Even though the minority population is very low in Vermont, African Americans 1%, Hispanics 3%, a large part of the population is poor and undereducated, (An interesting aside, 20% of the population live off trust funds, and only 26% have any higher education) I think Dean's record illustrates his lack of caring for civil rights protections. Here's a portion of an article that discusses Dean's attitudes towards protests in Burlington under his administration..(cut and paste url to read entire article.) even worse, below that you'll find a url for a blog of Dean supporters discussing this issue.. it's a real eye opener.

http://www.counterpunch.org/jacobs08292003.html
There was a small, but telling, incident back in 1996, when anti-death penalty protestors who were in town opposing (the Pennsylvania governor) Tom Ridges approval of Mumia Abu Jamals execution sprayed FREE MUMIA graffiti at the Ethan Allen Homestead. The judge ruled, over the prosecutor's objection, that the defendants could use a "necessity defense", i.e. to speak of their motivations and analysis of Mumia's situation, rather than just admit to spraying paint. Dean was disappointed with that decision. "These guys are a bunch of hoods running around our streets," Dean commented. "I don't think this has anything to do with the necessity offense --imported hoods I might add. People who spray paint and deface public property are hoodlums not protesters with some higher purpose. I have no patience for that." Reporter Peter Freyne, now one of Dean's great supporters, asked his readers at the time to "Remember the guy who once said 95 percent of people charged with crimes are guilty anyway so why should the state spend money on providing them with lawyers?"

http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:cGWV4GE2D5cJ:www.hipforums.com/thread-23-121946%26pagenumber%3D2%26subid%3D.html+%22Howard+Dean%22+%22free+Mumia%22&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

[killbotfactory]

190. He put his political life in danger because of civil rights

might remember that little ol' civil unions bill.

[Jeff002]

201. The Vermont Supreme Court ruled in favor of civil unions, forcing Dean to

sign it, and he did behind closed doors. Normally Dean signed big laws with public ceremony, not that time. He was mighty quick to get on the air though and say loudly that it wasn't gay marriage.

[MercutioATC]

203. Dean wasn't forced to do anything. He could have refused to sign it.

The reason he signed it without ceremony is that the public was overwhelmingly opposed to it and he felt that a public event would have been divisive.

[killbotfactory]

207. Uh, bullcrap.

He could have sent it to be studied for a year or amended the constitution.

The issue was very divisive in the state, which is the reason he signed it in private.

[dsc]

225. flat out false

The Constitution of Vermont isn't immutable. There is a lengthy, but not terribly difficult, process to amend it. That process is for all of the following.

In the first two years of a four year period 2/3 of the Senate and a majority of the House must propose a Constitutional amendment. Then a majority of Vermont voters have to agree. Finally in the second two years a majority of both Houses must ratify. Again, I will grant that it would have been time consuming but it hardly was that difficult.

[SahaleArm]

206. Nice Try.

Let's not pretend that Dean championed Civil Unions from the beginning, the Vermont Supreme Court ordered equal rights.

He chose civil unions over marraige: http://newswatch.sfsu.edu/journal/su2001/070201pulitzer.html

[killbotfactory]

208. He chose civil unions over turning his back to the gay community

and forced the issue before an election. He could have sent it to be studied for a year, or amended the constitution.

[robbedvoter]

13. You heard St Ralph's verdict - go pray already! Canigeta, this is

the 3rd time you posted the comandments your religion - see if some faith based money can be obtained for your church.
While I agree than Dean is nowhere near the liberal image that he acquired (mostly because of Al Frum's idiotic blatherings) I'd have no problem voting for him if nominated.
Dean like bush? You mean he also is friends with the moonies, inherits Carlyle, loves to kill and thinks God talks to him? Dean is also an idiot who can't speak English unless it's about money or violence and dreams of being a dictator? News to me. . Not even Lieberman is like bush - and wild accusations like that discredit any sane argument that you may provide. I will not look at any links that follow such an assinine remark.
After the wildly successful Dems =GOP strategy in 2000, it's time for you guys to come up with a different angle.

[CMT]

16. yeah that's right Dean=Bush

Bush opposed the Iraqi War
Bush opposes portions of the Patriot Act
Bush is 100% pro-choice
Bush has protected 8% of US land from developers, like Dean did in Vt.
Bush has balanced the budget of the US, just like Dean did in VT (one of only a handful of states not in a fiscal crisis)
Bush has provided medical insurance to most children in the US like Dean did in Vt.
Bush has provided presciption care for seniors like Dean did in Vt.
Bush issued a strong executive order regarding Mercury in water just as Dean did in Vermont.
Bush supports the Kyoto Treaty the way Dean did in Vermont with even tighter regulations on fuel emissions than called for in the Treaty.
Bush supports Civil Unions and signed legislation creating them, just as Dean did in Vermont.
Vermont is a small state but over the years of Dean's governorship over 40,000 new jobs were created--we all know that Bush is all about creating jobs.
Bush is willing to talk with the leader of North Korea to diffuse a crisis there, just like Dean would.
Bush will go out of his way to appoint judges who support Choice just as Dean has pledged to do.
Bush wants to repeal his own tax cut for the wealthy just because he heard Dean advocate doing this.

Yeah, George Bush and Howard Dean are one and the same.

[Rose Siding]

23. These guys must not know what they're talking about!

LAWRENCE, KS. Good health is a high priority in Vermont. For the third year in a row, Vermont has earned the title of the nation’s Healthiest State. The award was announced in Health Care State Rankings 2003, an annual reference book of state health statistics published this month by Morgan Quitno Press of Lawrence, Kansas. At the opposite end of the rankings scale, Mississippi finished in last place for the fourth consecutive year.

“Vermont always has been a strong contender in our Healthiest State rankings,” said Scott Morgan, president of Morgan Quitno Press. “For 10 of the 11 years that we have issued the award, Vermont has ranked among the top six states. It’s hold on the title for three consecutive years sets a new record among states.”

The 11th annual Healthiest State Award is based on 21 health-related factors from Health Care State Rankings 2003, an annual reference book that compares the 50 United States in more than 500 health care categories. Factors considered include infant mortality rates, the percent of population not covered by health insurance, per capita expenditures for health care, percent of population lacking access to primary medical care, childhood immunization rates, and percent of adults who smoke.

"Our award reflects which states’ citizens have the best access to health care providers, affordable health care services and a generally healthy population," Morgan said. “Vermont fits this profile well. It boasts a low teen birth rate, a high childhood vaccination rate and excellent access to primary care physicians. Conversely, Mississippi faces the nation’s highest infant mortality rate, the highest teen birth rate and the highest percentage of population lacking access to primary care physicians.”

http://www.morganquitno.com/hc03press.htm

[DrFunkenstein]

40. Dean Was Not Anti-War

He was anti-resolution. Beyond that, he is no different than John Kerry.

[killbotfactory]

49. He was against the invasion

Compare and Contrast

Kerry on the eve of war

That said, Saddam Hussein is a tyrant, truly the personification of evil. He has launched two wars of aggression against his neighbors, perpetrated environmental disaster, purposefully destabilized an entire region of the world, murdered tens of thousands of his own citizens, flouted the will of the United Nations and the world in acquiring weapons of mass destruction, conspired to assassinate the former President of the United States, and provided harbor and support to terrorists bent on destroying us and our friends.

From that perspective, regardless of the Administration's mishandling of so much of this situation, no President can defer the national security decisions of this country to the United Nations or any other multilateral institution or individual country.

Even having botched the diplomacy, it is the duty of any President, in the final analysis, to defend this nation and dispel the security threats - threats both immediate and longer term - against it.

Saddam Hussein has brought military action upon himself by refusing for twelve years to comply with the mandates of the United Nations. The brave and capable men and women of our armed forces and those who are with us will quickly , I know, remove him once and for all as a threat to his neighbors, to the world, and to his own people, and I support their doing so.

Dean on the eve of war

Those Americans who opposed our going to war with Iraq, who wanted the United Nations to remove those weapons without war, need not apologize for giving voice to their conscience, last year, this year or next year. In a country devoted to the freedom of debate and dissent, it is every citizen’s patriotic duty to speak out, even as we wish our troops well and pray for their safe return. Congressman Abraham Lincoln did this in criticizing the Mexican War of 1846, as did Senator Robert F. Kennedy in calling the war in Vietnam 'unsuitable, immoral and intolerable.'

This is not Iraq, where doubters and dissenters are punished or silenced --this is the United States of America. We need to support our young people as they are sent to war by the President, and I have no doubt that American military power will prevail. But to ensure that our post-war policies are constructive and humane, based on enduring principles of peace and justice, concerned Americans should continue to speak out; and I intend to do so.”

Dean, shortly after the war started.

I have simply disagreed with the President, because I have never made the assessment that Iraq is an immediate threat. They did not possess nuclear weapons. They did not possess a credible nuclear program. And there was very little evidence that they'd ever given weapons of mass destruction to terrorists.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DrFunkenstein]

41. Hopefully, They'll Never Get The Chance

Hopefully we will get someone who doesn't look weak on defense.

[Rose Siding]

18. Vermont is Hell

Jonah Goldberg told me

[killbotfactory]

19. This was my favorite.

Nearly a fifth of the $110,000 contributed to Dean's PAC came from people with ties to energy. I'm sure that 20,000 dollars is much more influential than the 25 million which came from regular individuals.



Proof Dean is in league with big oil!

[unfrigginreal]

21. LOL

My personal favorite was Dental care for low-income residents abysmal...while Oral Health America gave Vermont and only 5 other states an A on their report card for Medicaid Access.

[AP]

26. Did you read that article?

It asks why Dean was planning on selling one of the public utilities for 1/7th a bid that came in at the last minute.

Was that a sweetheart deal?

[killbotfactory]

30. Because no one else bid higher until the last minute?

Maybe?

[AP]

50. How did it end up that the bid they were going to accept

was 1/7th the market value?

[killbotfactory]

51. Was the final bid at market value, or was it higher?

If they accepted the lower bid despite the higher one, this might be an issue. But, they didn't, and it's not.

[AP]

64. I think the issue (although it isn't clear) is that higher bid came in

after Dean was gone.

[killbotfactory]

69. It came in later because environmentalists protested the sale.

And they let it be put up for auction for bidding, and sold it for more under different terms.

[Pez]

28. deep fried candy bars? deep fried twinkies? :-(

that's not the first thing i wanted to see this morning...

[Padraig18]

31. Well...

... deep-fried candy bars are 'interesting', but deep-fried Twinkies are just VILE! :puke:

[Pez]

32. noooooo very noooooo

i think "interesting" is a word i would shield from association with "deep fried candy bars".

thinking about this is making my stomach hurt.


:puke:

[Rose Siding]

34. OK, WAY off topic

but on Ellen's new show, she had a "game" called "Can You Deep Fry It?" SOoooo funny. The woman was trying deep fried dill pickle slices and deep fried pb&j sandwiches.

[Pez]

36. but... Will It Float? n.t.

[Padraig18]

38. Ummm... regional delicacy

Deep-fried pickles are rather a delicacy here...:P

[RevolutionStartsNow]

52. When I was in Southern Ohio this summer

I was offered deep fried cheesecake! I couldn't bring myself to try it...

[DrFunkenstein]

42. Sounds Like A Guy Who Gives Eco Awards To Polluters

Am I far off the mark?

[KaraokeKarlton]

44. Yes, and lately you have been more often than not

when it comes to Dean. Why do you criticize a Democrat using criticism compiled against that Democrat by other parties when you know full well that they are no different than the Republican party when it comes to twisting things into something misleading for the sole purpose of political gain for another party?

[DrFunkenstein]

45. This From The Guy Who Says Kerry Wants To Enslave Children

I think it is perfectly legitimate to bring up Dean's mediocre record on the environment - from one of the greenest states in the nation!

Even when Dean was close to losing an election, no major environmental group ever - EVER - endorsed him. Compare that to my signature line.

PS - I use GOP research to defend Kerry. Alot of my quotes from Kerry come from their research teams (they think it is bad stuff, as a liberal I think it is great). I don't put out anything that I don't think affects how Dean will govern the nation. His environmental record - or lack thereof - is fair game in my book. Whereas saying Kerry wants to put kids in slave camps is both stupid and so low, even a cockroach wouldn't repeat it.

[George_Bonanza]

53. Kerry's service plan = kids in the cotton fields

Oh yeah, that was rich!

[KaraokeKarlton]

74. Well Kerry's wife buys tomatoes for her ketchup

from companies utilizing illegal child labor by 4 year old toddlers right here in the good old US of A. Sorry, but I don't trust Kerry as far as I can throw him. I will NOT have my kids forced into doing community service. Community service is for people who break the law as punishment. Volunteer work is something my family does when, where, how and if we see fit because it's voluntary. Kerry can blow his mandatory community service for children in order to get a high school diploma right out his stuffy condascending ass.

[molly]

79. Where did you get this little gem of info?

I'll bet from the Dean blog...

[KaraokeKarlton]

114. Nope, I got it from google

Run a search on Heinz illegal child labor and you should find a treasure trove of articles. You might also want to do a search on how Kerry's wife handed over control of an environmental organization to, of all people, Ken Lay...AFTER knowing he's a corporate crook. Candidates who live in glass houses should think twice before they start throwing stones.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

118. Here's the link:

Heinz illegal child labor

[Name removed]

134. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KaraokeKarlton]

140. Isn't it against the rules to accuse someone of being a "freeper"?

And for the record, I am just a Howard Dean supporter who can't stand John Kerry as a candidate who is also sick of the false garbage written by Kerry supporters about my candidate.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

148. False garbage? Like pushing energy-deregulation for his industry buddies?

the governor himself has said the donations buy access. “People who think they’re going to buy a contract or buy some influence are mistaken,” Dean famously said during the debate over a campaign finance reform bill in 1996. “But they do get access — there’s no question about that. ...They get me to return their phone calls.”

Advocates of public financing for campaigns complain about the message conveyed by the contributions.

“Administration actions going back some years betray an inappropriate coziness with the utilities,” said Paul Burns, executive director of the Vermont Public Service Research Group. “I am not prepared to say it’s a result of contributions given. But these contributions present the appearance of impropriety or appearance of influence that it probably would have been better to avoid.”

Dean’s close relationship with utility representatives dates back to the day he became governor in 1991. A lobbyist for Green Mountain Power and a GMP employee were among the first people Dean called in to help his transition.
http://timesargus.com/Archive/Articles/Article/43125

Howard Dean, once an ardent proponent of electric industry competition, said recently that he was glad the Legislature derailed his administration's drive to deregulate.
http://rutlandherald.nybor.com/News/Story/14542.html

[KaraokeKarlton]

164. Big Yawn

I'm sure Kerry doesn't return the phone calls of activists and individuals doing fundraising for him. And as usual, the stuff you posted has been debunked repeatedly. :eyes:

[Feanorcurufinwe]

172. What did Dean's energy industry buddies get for their money?

Over the years, the governor has sided with the utilities on many of the most pressing issues, including the push for deregulation of the electric industry, and later backing away from that as a goal. Among other major decisions:

— After years of pushing for the companies to absorb the excess costs of their expensive contract with Hydro-Quebec, Dean’s Department of Public Service agreed to let ratepayers be billed for more than 90 percent of what those excess costs are expected to be in the coming years. The extra costs will be in the hundreds of millions of dollars.

— The department also agreed to allow the utilities to sell Vermont Yankee to a Pennsylvania company for a price that was expected to be $23.8 million by the time the deal closed. Shortly before the Public Service Board was to make a final decision on that sale, another company stepped in and offered more than seven times as much. That sale to Entergy Nuclear Corp. is currently before the board.

— After it became clear in the late 1990s that selling Vermont Yankee was a top goal of the utilities, the administration failed to heed warnings for more than two years that the money the nuclear plant was paying for emergency planning was much less than was needed. An administration official said there was concern about interfering with the sale.

“The Dean administration knew explicitly (about the worries about emergency preparedness) and deliberately didn’t do anything about it in order to help CV and GMP sell the plant,” said James Dumont, a lawyer for the New England Coalition On Nuclear Pollution. “They didn’t bite the hand that fed them.”
http://timesargus.nybor.com/Legislature/Story/43125.html

[KaraokeKarlton]

73. I don't have a penis, funky

So calling me a "guy" wouldn't apply. My screen name is a joke, being that I sing and have one of those deep, throaty voices that sort of makes me sound a little bit like a man, hence "KaraokeKarlton".

Here's the issue I take with the information you cite as "facts". It's a load of horseshit. Democrats in other parts of the country hear "Progressive" and they think "progressive Democrats". However, in my state, when you hear someone refer to "Vermont Progressives" it's not a reference to any Democrats, it's a reference to a pretty radically left third party even further radically left on the environment than the Green party. This is where the criticism of Dean is coming from. Because Vermont is the greenest state in the nation, these third parties fare better here than they do anywhere else in the nation. Because of this, they attack Vermont Democrats very, very harshly AND unfairly. You're using a lot of false, misleading and outright dishonest information to complain about Dean. The man protected more of Vermont's land than ALL other Vermont governors combined. Dean has been THE BEST Vermont governor on the environment and the tough environmental standards we currently have that makes the state the greenest one in the nation are BECAUSE Howard Dean supported them. If he didn't, he would have vetoed whatever the legislature did. Apparently you don't feel compelled to mention that in your anti-Dean diatribes of false information given to you courtesy of the Democratic opposition.

[blm]

77. Vermont was the GREENEST state in the nation BEFORE Dean, too.

And under REPUBLICAN governors even.

When Dean played footie with the energy companies and WalMart, he HAD to come up with some environmental cover, so he did some good things.

[dsc]

78. Of course

Nevermind that Walmart won a suit to get into Vermont. I wonder if a Republican governor tried to do an end round around a clear court decision permitting a left wing book store or an abortion clinic would you think he should be allowed to do that? If not, why do you think Dean should have done so to keep Walmart out. Zoning laws must be evenly enforced. WalMart conformed themselves to Vermont's zoning laws which means that they aren't in isolated areas and are much smaller stores.

[Jeff002]

138. LOL, Dean gave corporations Act 250, it was a permit mill

to beat out citizens rights to object to corporations, mining companies, polluters, etc.. from moving in and taking over. Dean pushed that law through so he could make excuses while the citizenry got steamrolled over. The "suit" you're referring to was little more than a recognition that the company had gottten it's permit via Act 250, and it was too late for the people to fight it. Again, all thanks to the crooked Ho Ho Dean.

[KaraokeKarlton]

117. Oh for the love of God

Do you even know anything at all about Vermont other than what Kerry's campaign tells you? We have 2 or 3 Walmarts in Vermont, and we NEEDED them. Do you know why we needed them? Because there are virtually no damn retail stores in Vermont, that's why. Walmart in Vermont doesn't kill small businesses like commonly happens in other areas. Most towns don't even have stores to compete with a Walmart. Is it better to bring more jobs to Vermont as well as give us a place to shop nearby or is it better to keep jobs away and make Vermonters drive 2 damn hours to buy a pair of underwear? All that driving isn't good for our Green state, now is it?

And your incessant whining about Vermont's utility companies and the whole deregulation issue has been debunked over and over again. You're continuously beating a long since dead horse and I'm guessing everyone on the entire internet has already heard you complain about it and it hasn't stuck. It's time to find a new issue to harp on.

[molly]

81. Prove it...

it's about time for you to put your money where your mouth is - PROVE IT {/b}

You talk about it as an assumption - now do your thang

"You're using a lot of false, misleading and outright dishonest information to complain about Dean. The man protected more of Vermont's land than ALL other Vermont governors combined. Dean has been THE BEST Vermont governor on the environment and the tough environmental standards we currently have that makes the state the greenest one in the nation are BECAUSE Howard Dean supported them."

[dsc]

84. all of these have been sited

some as recently as a week or two ago. If I can find them quickly I will see what I can do.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

91. Dean did indeed

protect a lot of land -- that part of his environmental record is good and indisputable.

"he tough environmental standards we currently have that makes the state the greenest one in the nation are BECAUSE Howard Dean supported them." "

That sounds like a stretch to me though. I'd love to see some facts to back that statement up.

[dsc]

92. He was governor for 12 years

Do you really think if he didn't support those standards they would have remained? They have ranked 51st, out of 51 political entities, in the amount of polution generated per person. That is pretty impressive.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

99. Why not give Dean credit for the Magna Carta?

It makes just as much sense as giving him credit for Act 250.

Stephanie Kaplan, a leading environmental lawyer and the former executive officer of the Environmental Board, has seen the regulatory process become so slanted against environmentalists and concerned citizens that she thinks it's hardly worth putting up a fight anymore.

"Under Dean the Act 250 process and the Agency of Natural Resources (ANR) have lost their way," Kaplan charges. "Dean created the myth that environmental laws hurt the economy and set the tone to allow Act 250 and the ANR to simply be permit mills for developers."

Kaplan points to the "Environmental Board purge" in the mid-'90s that enabled the governor to set a pro-development tone. In 1993, the Board issued an Act 250 permit to C Grocers in Brattleboro with conditions that restricted the diesel emissions from its heavy truck traffic. After C execs cried foul and threatened to move to New Hampshire, Dean broke gubernatorial precedent by publicly criticizing the Environmental Board for issuing what he called a "non-permit."

A year after receiving their public rebuke from Dean, four of the Environmental Board members, including the chair, were up for reappointment. With not-so-subtle clues from Dean that he didn't approve of the Board's political direction, the Republican majority in the state senate shot down every one of their appointments, thus dramatically changing both the structure and climate of the Board.

"After the post-C&S purge," says Kaplan, "the burden of proof for Act 250 permits switched from being on the applicants - where it's supposed to be - to being on the environmentalists. That's why 98 percent of the permit requests are approved and only 20 percent ever have hearings."
http://www.vtce.org/deanenvironmentomya.html

[dsc]

100. They are still the 51st jurisdicion in the country in terms of polution

That means every single citizen in VT is better off in this term than ones in any other jurisdiction in the country.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

107. It just shows how silly that ranking is.

Most of my family lives in Vermont and sorry to break the news, I definately live in a less polluted environment here in Montana. What that statistic means in real terms I don't know. But I can imagine how I would have felt if I lived in New Hampshire and heard Dean proposing a coal fired power plant upwind in Vermont.

New Hampshire environmentalists are dismayed that Vermont Gov. Howard Dean would consider building a coal-fired power plant in the northwestern part of his state.

On a call-in radio show Tuesday, Dean said Vermont needs a new power plant and that it should be coal-fired. He acknowledged the move would be controversial, but said his state needs the power.

In a later interview with The Associated Press, Dean seemed to back off the proposal, saying he was just trying to provoke debate. But he wouldn't entirely discount the possibility of such a plant.

''I think coal's definitely on the table if you can find the technology to make it clean enough. ... I don't want to underplay the idea of a coal plant,'' he said.
http://www.vtce.org/deanoncoal.html

Vermont is a beautiful, wonderful place. But I don't give Dean the credit for that anymore than he is responsible for the wind or rain.

[dsc]

110. This would be the same New Hampshire that

built a nuclear power plant in defiance of its neighbors. I think they don't have much credibility on that score.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

116. Dean and Nuclear Power

— The department also agreed to allow the utilities to sell Vermont Yankee to a Pennsylvania company for a price that was expected to be $23.8 million by the time the deal closed. Shortly before the Public Service Board was to make a final decision on that sale, another company stepped in and offered more than seven times as much. That sale to Entergy Nuclear Corp. is currently before the board.

— After it became clear in the late 1990s that selling Vermont Yankee was a top goal of the utilities, the administration failed to heed warnings for more than two years that the money the nuclear plant was paying for emergency planning was much less than was needed. An administration official said there was concern about interfering with the sale.

“The Dean administration knew explicitly (about the worries about emergency preparedness) and deliberately didn’t do anything about it in order to help CV and GMP sell the plant,” said James Dumont, a lawyer for the New England Coalition On Nuclear Pollution. “They didn’t bite the hand that fed them.”

Dumont contended that while the campaign contributions have helped utility executives gain access to the governor, others have been cut out.
http://timesargus.nybor.com/Legislature/Story/43125.html

[KaraokeKarlton]

122. Um, NH is on the eastern side of Vermont, not the western...

Geography 101 courtesy of KaraokeKarlton!

[dsc]

123. oops

If I said that sorry. I may merely not have caught it. In any case oops.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

126. Umm so what? no one said otherwise. Canada is to the north. ok?

[KaraokeKarlton]

141. So NH wouldn't even be affected by something on the western side of VT

THAT is the point. You are implying that NH was all up in arms about something that would affect their state. The fact is, they weren't all up in arms and it wouldn't have affected NH. Just pointing out these little inconsistencies from the peanut gallery.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

154. I guess you've never heard of 'acid rain'.

Your knowledge of environmental issues is impressive.

[KaraokeKarlton]

165. Yep, about as impressive as your knowledge of

Geography!

[Name removed]

178. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

194. Show where I have made a geographic error.

I haven't. Perhaps you have failed to understand what 'upwind' means, I don't know.

[KaraokeKarlton]

120. anything you cite from www.vtce.org can't be taken seriously

The site is affiliated with the Vermont Progressive Party. This is what I have been trying to point out over and over again. Using things from that site to criticize Dean is like using things from a Green or Nader website to criticize Gore.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

124. Speaking of credibility:

Who should you trust?

This person or this organization

[KaraokeKarlton]

143. Why not trust the Vermont Democrats

Who re-elected Dean 5 more times? Vermonters are probably more politically aware of what goes on in their state than about any other place in the country. Damn near ALL Vermont's elected Democrats (and it might actually be ALL of them) have endorsed Howard Dean for president. Burlington Mayor, Peter Clavelle (a member of the Vermont Progressive Party) has even endorsed Dean. Keey supporters are blowing a bunch of hot air out of their collective ass. Vermont Democrats support Howard Dean.

[Name removed]

152. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KaraokeKarlton]

166. Apparently you don't realize that I live in Vermont

I KNOW Dean's record. I am living it, afterall. I know what kind of leader he is and what kind of job he's done. If Dean does just half as good a job for the country as he did for Vermonters we'll be better off in this country than we ever have been.

Now, kindly stop trying to tell a Vermonter what kind of Governor Howard Dean was, because quite clearly, I have much better knowledge about the topic than you do.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

192. Your opinions are just that.

I'm sure we can find in Vermont people who support Dean, people who support Kerry, people who support Clark, people who support Kucinich, people who support Mosely Braun, people who support Sharpton, people who support Edwards, people who support Gephardt, hey probably even people who support Lieberman.

so what?

[KaraokeKarlton]

212. You're the one trying to pass opinions off as fact

with all the third party propoganda against Democrats you keep touting. And it's not simply my opinion that those criticisms are from a party that opposes Democrats, it's a fact. Anything from Annette Smith's website (vtce.org) is written from the Vermont Progressive Party's perspective. Citing a party that opposes Democrats and criticizes Democrats for political gain is no different than citing the RNC to criticize a Democrat.

Dean will win the Vermont primary by a landslide, you can bank on it.

[Jeff002]

135. Vermonters for a Clean Environment isn't connected with Progressive Party

It's a grassroots organization that started with one woman, a farmer, Annette Smith who found out that Dean was helping to push a gas pipeline what was supposed to be protected farmland, then his advocacy for a Swiss mining company that wanted to strip mine in Danby, VT. She and local residents got together to fight against Dean's permit mill (Act 250).

Any of you who want to find out more, check out http://www.vtce.org for yourself. It's hardly a Nader-reicher site (and I dislike Nader as much as anyone since his hypocrisies and lies campaign in 2000 that brought us Bush).

Here's an article about Dean losing democratic votes to progressive and green candidates because of his gross anti-environmental stands,
it also does confirm his false claims of being an enviro-governor.
http://rutlandherald.nybor.com/News/Story/5307.html

In case anyone's interested, here's an article about Smith
http://rutlandherald.nybor.com/News/Story/28677.html

Here's another about her farm
http://vtce.org/citrusinvermont.html

[KaraokeKarlton]

142. Annette Smith IS affiliated with the VT Progressive Party

and the woman is a radical fruitcake! She wants Vermonters to go off electricity and live off the land. If she had her way she would run every last business out of Vermont and turn it into one big commune. And seeing as I live in Vermont, I am quite confident that I know quite a bit about my own state, thank you very much. Oh, and citing articles and editorials written by Progressive or Green party members who stand to gain politically by butchering Dean's record and passing off their opinions as if they were fact don't count. Again, criticizing ANY Democrat using the opinions of opposition parties isn't legitimate criticism.

[blm]

149. anything YOU cite from the NRA can't be taken seriously.

You often make the same points against Democrats that the NRA makes.

I trust a Progressive voice LONG before I trust the NRA.

[KaraokeKarlton]

167. Um, why don't you link to where I cited the NRA

Oh wait, that's right, you can't do that because I've never cited the NRA. Of course, that doesn't prevent you from trying to imply that I am a card holder of the NRA simply because I happen to support the 2nd Amendment and recognize the FACT that a lot of gun owners don't trust Democrats with the 2nd Amendment. Really now, blm, dear...if you're going to partake in cheap attempts at character assassination, at least have the common sense to back it up with some facts next time.


Next!

[Pez]

43. problem with dean is he has no effective strategy to refute any of this

he doesn't effectively defend his positions or have a strategy to refute his past record other than divert/deny/compare. problem is, if he gets the nomination and is up against bush he won't be able to change the subject; he won't be able to simply deny it and have people accept what he says because he is the "democratic wing of the democratic party"; he won't be able to compare his record to other democratic candidates or attack all the dems in washington-- "bush-lite" and "cockroaches" already aren't going over well with a lot of liberals... and why, if he is saying dems are a bunch of pussies, are indies and moderate reps going to vote for him? of course he can compare his record to bush, but i'm sure they already have their responses mapped out... bush is so dumb and the bar is so low for what people expect of him it doesn't really matter-- we saw that in 2000. if dean doesn't figure out a way to convince me why these things shouldn't matter i don't think he'll be able to convince the people he needs to vote for him in the general.

i know his supporters dismiss this as a bunch of crap, but if he makes 80-90% of "likely dem primary voters" uncomfortable, how is he going to win over the rest of the country?

[Rose Siding]

46. There is so little that needs to be refuted!

20 grand from Big Energy? That's a bought pol? It's laughable.

He wears 10 year old suits and washes his own shirts!

And where are you getting this 80-90% stat? His unfavorable was nearly HALF of any other candidate in a NH poll. Who found likely voters with the stat you cite?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

58. We should vote for him cuz he washes his own shirts?

You are kidding right?

[Rose Siding]

60. You're kidding, right?

You couldn't have missed my point about the hilarity of suggesting that 20,000 is the price of a politician these days.

I used an example of Dean's frugality to make the point.

It isn't like he owns his own island or something.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

61. So the cheaper he can be bought, the better?

I still don't think it's funny.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

112. "they do get access — there’s no question about that."

But the governor himself has said the donations buy access. “People who think they’re going to buy a contract or buy some influence are mistaken,” Dean famously said during the debate over a campaign finance reform bill in 1996. “But they do get access — there’s no question about that. ...They get me to return their phone calls.”

Advocates of public financing for campaigns complain about the message conveyed by the contributions.

“Administration actions going back some years betray an inappropriate coziness with the utilities,” said Paul Burns, executive director of the Vermont Public Service Research Group. “I am not prepared to say it’s a result of contributions given. But these contributions present the appearance of impropriety or appearance of influence that it probably would have been better to avoid.”

<snip>

Over the years, the governor has sided with the utilities on many of the most pressing issues, including the push for deregulation of the electric industry, and later backing away from that as a goal.
http://timesargus.nybor.com/Legislature/Story/43125.html

[genius]

119. That's the number one problem: Bush will use this to make him look

dishonest and people who keep changing their story are not usually considered credible. Bush will make mincemeat out of him and, if he gets the nomination, the press will help Bush do it. Do we really want to nominate the least credible candidate in the history of the Democratic Party?

[gully]

63. Have you bothered to read your own articles/links?

It doesn't appear you have. You've made a case for 'nothing.'

[dsc]

75. A few things

First for some amount of time your second and third links didn't work. They do work now but didn't around 1130 this morning. At this time I am only going to answer two of your articles the first and the fourth.

From the first article:

What is driving up the cost of Vermont health care, he said, is that hospital budgets are rising at more than three-times the rate of inflation. State government needs to work with the local health-care industry to hold down the rate of patient utilization, he said.

Dean, who is a physician, encouraged both doctors and hospital administrators to essentially ration health care by limiting the kinds of testing and procedures they would approve. Patients should be told to take their business elsewhere if they objected, he said. If all Vermont hospitals and physicians did this, the cost of health care would stabilize, Dean said.

Doing this would be "controversial," Dean acknowledged. But it would help small businesses by containing health-care costs, he said.

snip

Dean called Vermont hospitals a "monopoly" because they are geographically spread so far apart that they are not realistically in competition with one another. As a result, local hospitals have no free-market pressure to reduce costs, Dean said. In large cities, insurance companies refuse to allow their customers to receive care at some hospitals as a way to contain costs. That cannot happen in Vermont, he said.

end of quote

I fail to see the problem with this. No matter who is President, what party is in power, or when we are talking about medical care is rationed. And right now it is rationed to the detriment of the working poor and in favor of the rich, the well insured, the elderly, and the non working poor. I literally haven't seen a doctor nor gotten any medical care for over 3 years. I just can't afford it. Unless I sustain a life threatening injury I just have to deal. One of the reasons I am in this position is that unlike anyone who is insured or poor I pay full price for any care I get. The last medical care I got, stiches in my finger, ran over $800, if I had been insured my insurance company would have paid less than $400. I end up paying extra so people can get those unneeded X rays. We won't, nor should we, spend 100% of our income on health care. Something has to give. This plan seems far more reasonable than making people like me have no care at all so some Medicaid patient can get 3 X rays instead of 2. But maybe I am just a selfish bastard.

From the fourth article:

MONTPELIER — Vermont’s nearly 36,600 working poor should begin receiving monthly premium bills for their state-subsidized health care shortly after Thanksgiving, the welfare commissioner is expected to tell legislators today.

The bills — ranging from $5 to $75 — represent a major shift in the way participants in the state’s Medicaid-related health and pharmacy programs pay for their services. Instead of co-payments at the time of treatment, participants will now have to make on-time monthly premium payments or face losing their health insurance.

“We’ve gotten a clear mandate to switch to this system, and our job is to make sure that it is deployed on time,” said John Michael Hall, commissioner of the department of Prevention, Assistance, Transition and Health Access. He was slated to tell members of a key legislative health care oversight committee this morning that bills would be in the mail by Nov. 28 for premiums due at the end of December.

end of quote

First, I looked, entirely in vain it must be said, for a single, solitary word which stated or implied, that this was Dean's fault in any way, shape, or form. I read this article not once, not twice, not three times, not four times, but five times just to be certain. And I can't find anything blaming Dean. Nothing. Not even self serving statements from Governor Douglass or his appointees. So I have to ask, show me the blame. Where is it?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

93. Bottom line,Dean seems to care about balancing budgets than helping people

[dsc]

95. No he cares about helping people like me

I would have health insurance in VT I don't here. I haven't seen a doctor in 3 years. I live in fear of breaking a bone, or just getting a cut. Do you have any idea what that is like? Do you? I am one minor injury away from homelessness so some old person can get one more Xray. But yea it is so much better to have those extra X rays.

[dsc]

76. Please supply the context of the quote here

In answer to the question "Who would be your model as a vice president?" Dean replied: "Dick Cheney." (NYT, 7.14.02)

I shouldn't have to pay for an article to refute this. Clearly you must have some copy of this artilce. You are permitted up to three paragraphs for free use. Please do so. If you don't within the next 12 hours or so I will ask that it be removed pending your doing this.

[Rose Siding]

80. Context

July 14, 2002

Who would be your model as a vice president?

Dick Cheney. It sounds like an odd thing to say because I don't agree with almost anything he says, but he's incredibly competent. He knows how government works.

http://www.gaypasg.org/Press%20Clippings/July%202002/Is%20It%202004%20Yet.htm

This is consistent with an interview I saw where Dean answered the question of qualifications for a VP. There were 4 main criteria. Demographics, knowledge of how DC works, ability to lead and locale.

[dsc]

82. He is right on that

It is hard to argue that Cheney has done a poor job of getting what he wanted done, done. Cheney was the driving force behind the war and he got it. Cheney was very into the energy task force and he got his plan to be the Republican one. He also wanted the tax cuts and he got those. While I certainly don't like his policies I can't argue with his competence.

[Name removed]

136. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dsc]

193. Did you even click your link

you so snottily provided. The article is archived and they will sell it to me for $2.95. Next time you are going to portray a fellow poster as a dumb ass do your homework.

[genius]

83. Thank you for posting this. I wish all Democrats were as informed as you.

I once worked on Dean's campaingn. When I think back to that time, I see it as a period of ignorance and stupidity with respect to who the man is and what he stands for. It is actually embarrassing that I ever had anything to do with his campaign. The people who woken up are the most angry about the lies that tricked us into working on that campaign and with our own stupidity.

I hope that your information with wake up other indiduals. It would be tragic if everyone woke up the day after Dean received the delegates he needed and suddenly realized they had made the worst mistake of their lives. Imagine the guilt the people who supported him would feel.

With all the criticism from the people who want to remain asleep, don't you feel like concerned observer warning someone who thinks they can jump off a tall building and land safely that it will not result in a pleasant experience. For your efforts to save them, they yell at you and call you names but your intentions are good and if, through some miracle, they listen, they will be so glad they did.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

101. Oh, please...

It's fine that your opinion of Dean changed and that you choose not to support him anymore, but this is just silly.

We have not been "tricked into supporting Dean", we are wide awake (well I'm a bit tired but that's another story), and we are not about to jump off a tall building. And we don't need you to "save" us. Except maybe from the melodrama.

[KaraokeKarlton]

125. So you're mad because you just supported someone without knowing

what their positions were? Sorry buddy, but the only person you have to blame for that is yourself. Dean has NEVER misrepresented who he is or what he stands for. You didn't do your homework, and that isn't Dean's fault. If you don't agree with Dean, then don't support him and throw your support behind someone else, but don't assume that everyone else who supports him didn't check him out before supporting him just because you didn't.

:eyes:

[Feanorcurufinwe]

127. Dean never misrepresented his positions?

"Sen. Bob Packwood (R-Ore.): I've said many times that I think we should raise the retirement age about the year 2015--raise it by that time to about age 70.

"Howard Dean: I am very pleased to hear Bob Packwood because I absolutely agree we need to reduce the--I mean, to increase the retirement age. There will be cuts and losses of some benefits, but I believe that Sen. Packwood is on exactly the right track."
--CNN's Crossfire, Feb. 28, 1995
http://slate.msn.com/id/2086804/

Here we have Dean on the record as supporting raising the retirement age.

Russert: ...calling for that, and this is what Howard Dean said. "The way to balance the budget, Dean said, is for Congress to cut Social Security, move the retirement age to 70, cut defense, Medicare and veterans pensions, while the states cut almost everything else. 'It would be tough but we could do it,' he said."
Dean: Well, we fortunately don't have to do that now.
Russert: We have a $500 billion deficit.
Dean: But you don't have to cut Social Security to do that.
Russert: But why did you have to do it back then?
Dean: Well, because that was the middle of--I mean, I don't recall saying that, but I'm sure I did
--Meet the Press, June 22, 2003
http://stacks.msnbc.com/news/912159.asp

Here we have Dean being reminded, and acknowledging, on national TV on June 22 that he did hold this position.

"I have never favored Social Security retirement at the age of 70, nor do I favor one of 68."
--AFL-CIO Democratic presidential candidate forum, Aug. 5, 2003
http://slate.msn.com/id/2086804/

Here we have Dean denying on national TV on August 5 that he ever held that position.

[KaraokeKarlton]

144. Actually, you're the one misrepresenting his positions

and that crap has been debunked too. :eyes:

[Feanorcurufinwe]

155. I quoted Dean.You call it 'all that crap'-it's what came out of his mouth

[KaraokeKarlton]

168. Not so fast, there buddy!

Actually, you quoted PARTIAL statements. Anyone with more than a couple of brain cells realize that butchered and snipped quotes don't usually tell the whole truth. Yes, I call it "crap" because that's what it is. Everything you've claimed to show Dean in a bad light has been repeatedly debunked for the garbage and misleading nonsense that it is. I can't help but wonder why it is that you continuously try to use this same stuff even after it's been proven inaccurate. Maybe you think that if you repeat it enough it will make it true. Sorry, but things don't work that way. People on this site are much too smart for those kinds of tactics.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

191. Show some context that changes the meaning of Deans words then.

If such context exists, let's see it.

"Sen. Bob Packwood (R-Ore.): I've said many times that I think we should raise the retirement age about the year 2015--raise it by that time to about age 70.

"Howard Dean: I am very pleased to hear Bob Packwood because I absolutely agree we need to reduce the--I mean, to increase the retirement age. There will be cuts and losses of some benefits, but I believe that Sen. Packwood is on exactly the right track."
--CNN's Crossfire, Feb. 28, 1995
http://slate.msn.com/id/2086804/

Here we have Dean on the record as supporting raising the retirement age.

Russert: ...calling for that, and this is what Howard Dean said. "The way to balance the budget, Dean said, is for Congress to cut Social Security, move the retirement age to 70, cut defense, Medicare and veterans pensions, while the states cut almost everything else. 'It would be tough but we could do it,' he said."
Dean: Well, we fortunately don't have to do that now.
Russert: We have a $500 billion deficit.
Dean: But you don't have to cut Social Security to do that.
Russert: But why did you have to do it back then?
Dean: Well, because that was the middle of--I mean, I don't recall saying that, but I'm sure I did
--Meet the Press, June 22, 2003
http://stacks.msnbc.com/news/912159.asp

Here we have Dean being reminded, and acknowledging, on national TV on June 22 that he did hold this position.

"I have never favored Social Security retirement at the age of 70, nor do I favor one of 68."
--AFL-CIO Democratic presidential candidate forum, Aug. 5, 2003
http://slate.msn.com/id/2086804/

Here we have Dean denying on national TV on August 5 that he ever held that position.

[Name removed]

213. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Andromeda]

210. Those claims have been debunked...

over, and over, and over again. You need some new material.

[blm]

151. Dean never said he represented the Democratic wing of the party?

He didn't imply the others were in the center closer to the GOP?

He didn't call lifelong liberals, "Bushlite" implying that he was to their left?

Dean bears plenty of responsibility for misleading the public.

[KaraokeKarlton]

170. Could I have some cheese and crackers with that whine?

The "Bush Lite" comment had nothing to do with liberal vs conservative. It had to do with certain Democrats not having the balls to stand up for those who elected them and taking some of the same positions that Bush did on issues that Democratic voters opposed. Stop blaming Dean for the fact that Kerry screwed up.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

175. Make up your mind. Do you want wine or Bush-lite?

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wyldwolf]

89. The moment you called Dean a socialist...

..is when you lost any credibility you might have had.

Typical conservative ignorance on what socialism is - take it from an avowed capitalist!

[LuminousX]

145. Point-by-Point refutation

1. Rationing Healthcare: The provided link doesn't give the whole story as this quote from the cached article clarifies why and in what way Dean was referring to it:

Dean called Vermont hospitals a "monopoly" because they are geographically spread so far apart that they are not realistically in competition with one another. As a result, local hospitals have no free-market pressure to reduce costs, Dean said. In large cities, insurance companies refuse to allow their customers to receive care at some hospitals as a way to contain costs. That cannot happen in Vermont, he said.

This lack of provider competition makes it necessary for Vermont hospitals and doctors to take it upon themselves to reduce the cost of health care by steering patients away from expensive procedures and drugs that are not necessary, Dean said.
reference link

2. Dental Care for the Poor: Yes, according to the source, the Dr. Dynosaur program along with Medicaid didn't reimburse Dentists enough for them to want to accept Medicaid patients. On the other hand, the real issue was the lack of Dentists in Vermont.

The problem stems from different sources, Sanders said. First, there are only 350 actively practicing dentists in Vermont. That is too few for Vermont, he said, and too many are concentrated in the more affluent parts of the state, like Chittenden County.
reference link

3. Poor Paying for Medicaid: The story clearly says that this was a mandate put in by the current governor. It has nothing to do with Dean except the poster wishes readers to infer that Dean left Vermont in horrible shape, of course it has nothing to do with the fact all 50 states are losing money.

The change to a premium-based system was signed into law by Gov. James Douglas in June. Despite that mandate, the state’s chief health-care advocate said Monday that she was surprised to learn that the welfare department was going forward with the switch, adding that she would ask for a delay.
reference link

4. I'm ignoring all the links to VTCE as I don't know the organization and if they have this many anti-Dean pieces, I think they are questionable.

5. Civil Liberties: The 'attack' piece comes from an editorial, so I don't give it much credence by itself.

reference link - Howard Dean on Civil Rights

A few quick searches to see what types of actions the ACLU have taken in Vermont indicates their biggest concern was educational funding and the child-porn law. Fundamentally, this looks more like a mountain out of a mole hill.

6. Dean on Iraq: This has been debated to death. Dean did not support going into Iraq as we did, preferring to have gone through the U.N. but now that we are there, we have to make sure we create a stable environment which will not become yet another threat that will have to be dealth with ten years from now.

7. Dean on Nuclear Arms: Why would he deviate from standard U.S. policy on this? We've always had a policy of keeping nukes out of the hands of potential hostile nations.

8. Dean on Environment: I'm not going to touch this one as I don't think his record is stellar. I'm okay with that though because I know he will be tempered by Congressional Democrats and he has a history of listening and has proven that his position can change given proper evidence.

Will this be the last time we see this cut-and-paste attack on Dean? I doubt it.

[Le Taz Hot]

146. I'd keep it handy

All the same anti-Dean chestnuts (along with their refutations) reincarnate about every month or so. Why reinvent the wheel every time? ;-)

[Feanorcurufinwe]

158. Part smokescreen, part valid counterpoints

"1. Rationing Healthcare: The provided link doesn't give the whole story as this quote from the cached article clarifies why and in what way Dean was referring to it:

Dean called Vermont hospitals a "monopoly" because they are geographically spread so far apart that they are not realistically in competition with one another. As a result, local hospitals have no free-market pressure to reduce costs, Dean said. In large cities, insurance companies refuse to allow their customers to receive care at some hospitals as a way to contain costs. That cannot happen in Vermont, he said.

This lack of provider competition makes it necessary for Vermont hospitals and doctors to take it upon themselves to reduce the cost of health care by steering patients away from expensive procedures and drugs that are not necessary, Dean said."
http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:dIXubTUiHgIJ:www.stowereporter.com/community/dean39.shtml+stowereporter+Dean+ration&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Dean apparently thinks the way to reform health care is through more 'competition'. I disagree. I think health care should be a right, not something we are privileged to have if the market conditions allow it. I just think Dean approaches the problem from the wrong philosophical direction.

2. So Dental care for the poor isn't good in Vermont? I agree, not every problem in Vermont is Dean's fault.

3. This too, I agree, isn't neccesarily something that should be laid at Dean's door.

"4. I'm ignoring all the links to VTCE as I don't know the organization and if they have this many anti-Dean pieces, I think they are questionable."

Anyone who is more concerned with the environment than Dean's political career can't have any credibility?

5. Civil Liberties: The 'attack' piece comes from an editorial, so I don't give it much credence by itself.

The relationship between the Defender General’s Office and Dean has been a difficult one from the time Dean assumed the governorship a decade ago.

In an interview his first week as governor, Dean made it clear where he stood: “My view is that the justice system is not fair. It’s not fair. It bends over backwards to help defendants and is totally unfair to victims and to society as a whole ...,” he said.

Dean subsequently supported toughening the guidelines for people qualifying for a public defender and limiting the services defenders provide to prisoners.
http://rutlandherald.nybor.com/News/Story/31711.html

6. Dean on Iraq: This has been debated to death. Dean did not support going into Iraq as we did, preferring to have gone through the U.N. but now that we are there, we have to make sure we create a stable environment which will not become yet another threat that will have to be dealth with ten years from now.

See post 115

7. Dean on Nuclear Arms: Why would he deviate from standard U.S. policy on this? We've always had a policy of keeping nukes out of the hands of potential hostile nations.

I don't know that the standard policy is so good on this but I also don't know how Dean differs from the other Dem candidates on this.

8. Dean on Environment: I'm not going to touch this one as I don't think his record is stellar. I'm okay with that though because I know he will be tempered by Congressional Democrats and he has a history of listening and has proven that his position can change given proper evidence.

I won't get into your last point, but I agree Dean has a mixed record. He does get points for his achievments in land conservation.

[Kolesar]

150. So which candidate's campaign do you work for?

Don't bother to answer. Posters like you are who the "ignore" list was intended for.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

153. So you are saying there is no rebuttal, no refutation, just 'ignore'-ance

Vermonters on Howard Dean

[killbotfactory]

156. Try the post entitled "point by point response"

#145

[Feanorcurufinwe]

160. Read my answer

post 158

[indigo32]

157. Try convincing me to vote for your candidate

instead of convincing me NOT to vote for mine. Seriously I really identify with LuminousX when she says essentially "Fine... I'll just show up for the generals."
I've given time and hundreds of dollars to this campaign so far... and NO ONE else will get that from me until you convince me.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

159. I'm not trying to convince you of anything.

This thread is about a broad attack on Dean. I think some of the points in that attack are valid, some are bogus. That is the subject of this thread and that's what we are talking about here.

[LuminousX]

161. The point of the thread

is to convince people not to vote for Dean. It worked. I will not vote for Dean in the primary. Now it is a matter of is there another canidate who can inspire me to do what I have already done for Dean?

So far, there isn't. For all the Dean detractors, it is now up to you to convince me your candidate is worthy of not only my vote (he or she has it in the General Election guaranteed, if they are the nominee) but my sweat, labor, and general enthusiasm. Since Dean is so awful, which candidate is better and why?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

162. Which candidate is better?

Look in P&C. Despite what some say, there are plenty of positive threads extolling the virtues of the other candidates. We've got several inspiring candidates who are qualified to be President and who can beat Bush. I'm sure you can find one to support.

[LuminousX]

163. None Inspire Me

And since I was a Dean supporter before today, I only really monitored the Dean threads, which of course, is why I am no longer a Dean supporter. Any candidate that inspires people to hate him that much can't be good and I can only assume my perspective on things are truly flawed.

Thus, those who have this seething hatred for Dean now have the opportunity to convert me to their cause.

As evidence of my openess, I've purged my ignore list, which is the only reason why you and I are having this exchange. Here's your chance... since I can now see all your postings again, through all the threads and posts you make, you can convince me the candidate you support is the right person for me to support and tell me why I should be inspired by him or her to give money, time, and energy to his/her campaign.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

169. Well, I will point you

to the threads I've started. All my active threads in P&C are linked from this post Some are critical of Dean. And I will readily admit that at times I have let the heat of the moment make my rhetoric more inflammatory than it needed to be and for that I apologize. Most are positive about my candidate. I hope you will find his record inspiring but besides my posts, there are many others and there are other candidates that I find inspiring as well, who I just don't happen to support.

Finally, I appreciate the tone of your message, and I hope we can all move forward with an open mind. Honestly, I try to have an open mind as well and I would like to be convinced that I'm wrong about Howard Dean since he has a good chance of being the nominee.

[Pez]

171. well...

...i don't believe this thread convinced you not to vote for dean, but i just posted a brief resume for kerry. i think he has the combined experience in international affairs, small business, the environment, women's issues, civil rights, education, etc. as well as a solid record fighting for these issues that makes him my ideal candidate. his past proves that his campaign is not based on empty promises...

i don't have "seething hatred" for dean, but based on his past record and campaign gaffes i don't think he's the best candidate we have right now.

[LuminousX]

176. This Thread didn't

The poll thread which asked which candidate people DON'T want lead to this epiphany. It isn't worthwhile supporting someone others hate so much. I feel sorry for the Lieberman supporters on this board. They probably left a long time ago, feeling betrayed that a man who served the party for so many years got a short-end of the stick just because he was centrist instead of leftist. I know I wasn't supporting Lierberman for that reason, but was that fair?

Phrases like 'hold my nose and vote for Lieberman' doesn't exactly inspire people. I'm guilty of using that phrase.

I know Kerry's resume, but Kerry disappoints me. He really should be the 800-pound gorilla in the room and he isn't. I'll read what you posted and see if there is anything new in there or something I already knew but repressed due to the lackadaisical 'Campaign Kerry' instead of the dynamic 'Senator Kerry' issues I have.

[mzmolly]

173. I hope your kidding?!

:shrug:

[LuminousX]

174. I'm not.

I've been convinced, mainly with that poll that showed that Dean is hated right next to Lieberman that it is pointless being a supporter of Dean here. I will not defend him anymore. It is now up to those who have convinced me he isn't worthwhile to support, that I should walk away from the money I've given to him thus far and support the person they support.

[mzmolly]

177. Did you check the poll where he first choice for Prez here?

Of course the predominant front runner aka, (the guy who passed 'their' guys in the polls is gonna generate much venom) It's a given.

Clark came in late, and everyone expected him to do well. Dean came in early and went from 2% to passing up all the others. So, what we have is a group of Kerry, Edwards, Lieberman etc.. supporters who are angry with Dean.

Why? Because he's showing them 'how it's done'...

[LuminousX]

179. That just shows his supporters

The other poll showed his detractors. There are enough people who hate him that it is a bit frightening.

This is why I am clearing the slate. I outlined my criteria for a candidate and I am evaluating all of them regarding that criteria. I'm not an issue voter. There are things that are important to me but those are generally protected by the party as a whole. The party will not put up a candidate who didn't support abortion. The party will not put up a candidate who wants to deforest the country. The party will not put up a corporate sycophant.

So just because Dean has an amazing campaign and positions I support, I am putting him in the hole. There are four candidates (without Dean) who fit my basic criteria - Kerry, Edwards, Kucinich, and Gephardt. Gephardt, Kerry and Edwards get a reprieve from my elected executive experience requirement due to their time in Congress.

Now, using the positive message threads, I am going to evaluate the candidates. The only bias I will have is any Dean positive will have to be reiterated from two seperate independent sources.

[mzmolly]

182. I hope you keep that 'bias' for all the candidates.

And, prepare to dump any of the 4 you mentioned if they move out front because that's where it gets ugly.

If that happens, Dean won't be the hated person he is today on DU. The front runner will be.

Also, keep in mind our polls are freeped, and much of that hatred via the poll, could be coming from Republicans.

Peace

[LuminousX]

184. It's not that point that the poll was freeped

I took that into account. Much like the poll that showed Dean in the lead for Prez was probably freeped.

The point is, at this point in time, there isn't any reason to be a partisan supporter of any candidate. I will not descend into the mud. I will not be compared to anti-abortion protestors. I will not have people claim that Dean is my 'True Leader' and I am going to eat poisoned applesauce for him.

I renounce it all. Show me the positive. I'm ignoring all the negative except to see who is saying it. Anyone who has the time to tear down a candidate has the time to boost a candidate.

[mzmolly]

186. Understood...

:hug:

[Egnever]

204. Interesting decision

I respect your desire to try to stay above all of this daily ugliness. I
find it interesting that you decide to turn from dean based on a negative poll on DU where he got the second most negative votes.

It seems strange to me that you would make such a decision based on a negative DU poll. If that is what you base your decision on how do you reconcile that decision with the fact that in the latest national polls Dean is the one with the lowest negative reaction?

I certainly understand trying to step away from the hate shown here on DU mostly from the same few people I can count on my fingers. But to abandon a candidate based on negative reaction here at DU seems like a very strange leap for me especially in the face of the national polls results stating just the oposite effect for Dean.

This partiucular forum has been a bowl of vitrol for months now. One boldfaced spin after another attacking one candidate or another.

I dont know why but I find it very odd that you would put down your suport based on a poll in this forum that flies in the face of everything seen anywhere else. Dean does have the most suporters, Dean does have the most money sent to him by the most people, Dean is inspiring the most people, Dean does lead almost everywhere you look yet you are here saying you will ignore all of that because maybe someone else is doing these things better?

You seem like a very rational person based on everything i have read by you so far but this line of reasoning turns all of that on its head.

You seem to be saying damn my lying eyes. The guy with the lead in almost everything cant possibly be the right guy cause on a DU poll in the most negative forum on the whole site he got the second most negative response.

It's your support to do with what you will by all means and far be it from me to tell you who to support or who not to.

I think allowing the negativity of this forum to have such a large impact on your feelings for a candidate is very strange. If you want to see positive feedback on any candidate this is not really the place. Almost all of them have blogs now. Take some time look at them read what the people actually working for each of the candidates are saying and get your positives from there. When you feel all warm and fuzzy again put your waders on and jump back into this cesspool and throw your hat into the mix no matter who you support.

Standing by and letting the world happen to you is a defeatist atitude IMHO. You are better than that.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

214. Q: Why does Dean have the lowest negative reaction?

A: Nobody knows anything about him nationally.
The rule inpolitics is that negatives can only go up, and positives down.
Unless you're Jesus.

[LuminousX]

215. My reasoning

My reasoning, and I agree it may be a bit spurious, is we are simply too far out from the primaries for someone like myself who doesn't like to support things, I'm more comfortable tearing them down, to be idealogically tied to one candidate.

I find it interesting that you decide to turn from dean based on a negative poll on DU where he got the second most negative votes.

The poll is part of a whole, it was more of the straw that broke the camel's back. Do I really believe Dean is the source of all this hate, that he has caused it? No. But the fact is, quite a few here do hate him and keep posting their hate daily. A thread that essentially was about how vile Dean supporters was here for a few days before Skinner finally locked it. During that time, Dean supporters were accused of being as vile as anti-abortionists. One poster said he was afraid Dean supporters were going to slash his tires.

This partiucular forum has been a bowl of vitrol for months now. One boldfaced spin after another attacking one candidate or another.

Taking this forum as my political peer group, I am saying to those who post negativity and hate day in and day out that they have successfully changed my mind. This is what they want, isn't it? To cull support from Dean. They have succeeded. Now what?

I honestly will not support Dean in the primary as of yesterday. I will not support any candidate. This forum now has between now and the Illinois primary to convince me to vote for a candidate. But I demand something more than a simple swaying. I have given money to Daen. I have stood in the rain for Dean. I have gotten a sunburn for Dean. I have sweated and fatigued myself for Dean. These haters have to convince me that their candidate is worthy of that effort from me.

Taking all of this public is a little childish, I fully admit. I see this as a thought experiment. I purged my ignore list and attempting to approach the candidates tabula rasa. In attempt to overcome my bias for Dean, I will not consider any positive information directly from Dean. I actually would like to encourage others to do this. Handicap your preferred candidate. Forget everything you think you know about him and relearn it.

Using yesterday as a Point Zero, I will also monitor which supporters are the most negative, which supporters attack the most, and which supporters boost their candidate the most. Also, which supporters boost candidate other than their own.

[Name removed]

197. Deleted message

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