Jews Rip Kerry's Middle East Plan (NY Post headline)

[Octafish]

Why would the New York Post not want peace in the Middle East? Rupert makes money? Australia can use the lebensraum? What? I can understand Abraham Foxman's position, although I don't agree with him. — Octafish

JEWS RIP KERRY'S MIDDLE EAST PLAN

By STEFAN C. FRIEDMAN and DEBORAH ORIN

December 4, 2003 -- Presidential hopeful Sen. John Kerry set off a firestorm among Jewish leaders yesterday by saying Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton or former Secretary of State James Baker could be used as a special envoy to the Middle East in the Massachusetts senator's administration.

Kerry's comments - made during what was billed as a major foreign-policy speech at the Council on Foreign Relations - were met with light applause at the event.

But the proposal sparked shock and anger in the Jewish community, especially in view of former President Carter's perceived anti-Israel stance at the latest "peace summit" in Geneva.

"I don't know whether to laugh or to cry. None of those three would be on my list," said Abe Foxman, national director of the Anti-Defamation League.

CONTINUED...

http://www.nypost.com/news/nationalnews/12546.htm

[La_Serpiente]

1. That's the biggest load of crap

I have ever heard. Why didn't they say anything when Dean said this a few months ago?

Also, they have dubious sources in the article.

[helleborient]

2. When did Dean want James Baker in his government? (n/t)

[La_Serpiente]

Sorry bout that

I know that Dean would never want to send Baker. But he did say he would send Clinton and they are critical of that as well.

[blm]

4. Dean: GHWBush was "excellent on foreign policy"

and that was BAKER. Kerry fought Bush and Baker on everything BUT his Mideast peace efforts.

[seventhson]

10. link please

context?

One thing Poppy did that boyboybush didn't do was build a coalition to go to war with Iraq. But hell it was a lot easier considering Baker bluffed Iraq into invading another country (by having April Glaspie tell Saddam: "No Probs"

But I want to SEE the words and the context of Dean's statement before I am able to assess it.

[blm]

12. He said it on Hardball.

It's in the transcript from Monday. It's all he said about Poppy but, he praised Powell effusively and said he'd be great in ANY administration. Go look at the transcript, it's up at the Hardball link at msnbc.

[La_Serpiente]

15. Here is the transcript

http://www.msnbc.com/news/1000254.asp

About 3/4 through the transcript

MATTHEWS: OK, who is your favorite musician or piece of music or both?

DEAN: This is a tough one. I was asked this before, and I just got a new CD, it has to be Wyclef Jean.

MATTHEWS: OK. That’s not the “Carson Daly Show,” so I have no idea what you are talking about. So, let’s go to-what did you think of the following presidents and you can do this in a few words if you don’t mind-Ronald Reagan.

DEAN: Great charisma. Lousy policy.

MATTHEWS: That’s it? You are a cold man. George Bush Sr., Herbert Walker Bush?

DEAN: Excellent on foreign policy. Not to great on domestic policy.

*As a side note, I don't really think this is an endorsement on Baker, but it does mean that he more or less supported the foreign policy goals of Bush I.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

18. Oops, never mind

Edit: I misread something, but in any case:

I think Dean is doing to this point out that he supported Gulf War I, but not II. This is his way of showing that he's not anti-war, just anti-illegal war. He's being using this for awhile.

[DrFunkenstein]

30. How Does He Feel About Gulf War III?

Besides opposing the terms of the IWR, Dean supported invasion under slightly different terms, as well as supporting just about every other American military intervention in recent history.

I have a feeling that war will be just as likely under Dean's helm as Dubya's.

[IndianaGreen]

21. The context of the quote was the coalition to free Kuwait from Saddam

and Dean compared the months of efforts that went into building that coalition, not to mention goint to the UN to get Security Council approval and building consensus in Congress for a resolution authorizing force. Dean drew a sharp distinction between Poppy Bush and Junior's pathetic "Coalition of the Willing."

There is another big difference to note here. Kicking Iraq out of Kuwait was a war of liberation, for Iraq had been the aggressor state. GW's invasion of Iraq is a war of aggression, for Iraq had not attacked the United States. Bush played the role of Saddam when Saddam invaded Kuwait.

[sandnsea]

28. Who did that?

Baker. That's the point. Bush's administration with Baker as Secretary of State did not act like Georgie. That's why naming the name Baker was important. It crystalizes the point to anybody who chooses to think logically.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

22. Bullpuckey.

Tweety was asking for thumbnail sketches of what Dean thought of past administrations. How this is spun into "Dean loves Baker" is beyond me. Now, Kerry brought up Baker all by his lonesome. Your twisted view on things is amazing. Switch the names in the CFR speech and the Hardball appearance. Do some non-partisan evaluation. How's it look now?

[Scott Lee]

23. And this excuses Kerry's support of antisemite Baker...how?

I know this is a common diversionary tactic among the hate antiDean knitting clutch, but humor me and describe how Dean's comments on GHWB's foriegn policy reduce Kerry's support of a known antisemitic warmonger?

Free tootsie pop if you dare to answer this question directly.

[sandnsea]

27. Back it up

With real facts, not rantings.

[eissa]

7. They did

During the NY debate, Lieberman ripped Dean (to loud applause) for simply saying he would be "even handed" with his policies regarding I/P. Dean was also lambasted (sorry, no link) when he criticized Asscroft for using the Patriot Act to harrass/destroy civil liberties of Arab-Americans.

[JI7]

3. actually

those 3 contributed to some of the biggest steps when it comes to peace in the middle east. it's good for israel and palestine, it's good for jews, muslims and the rest of the world. the current bush administration is doing nothing and it's only hurting all sides.

[ex_jew]

5. I think peace in the Middle East would mean

that Israel's plan to annex more territory would have to stop. How then could they accomodate the hordes of Jews who are expected to materialize there at any moment ? And what then would be the point of the IDF, the wall, the weapons manufacturers, overflights of Syria and Lebanon, the Mossad, the Shin Bet, etc. ?

People such as Foxman and the POSt want peace only on Israel's terms, which really don't include anyone but the Jews. That's Zionism for you.

[eissa]

6. Aw, geez, Kerry!

What are you doing?! You are not supposed to encourage peace in the ME or make statements saying you will be "even handed" while you're campaigning!

[JI7]

8. the ny post

is crap. most jews support peace.

[seventhson]

11. agreed and most Jews would embrace Clinton as mediator too

eom

[pistoff democrat]

17. Thank you for posting the truth.

:yourock:


:kick:

[seventhson]

9. Foxman speaks for Foxman and not Jews IMHO, But

Carter is old news although not such a bad guy and Baker is a fascist par excellence.

Foxman's crack at Clinton was just stupid -- but we know WHY he feels that way (Clinton was too concessionary in his opinion to the Palestinains).

But Foxman's problem with Clinton is a pretty weak criticism.

Dean's proposal for Clinton was coopted by Kerry and Kerry is sucking up to PNAC, and the Repubs by proposing Baker (who is famous for saying "fuck the Jews, they won't vote for us anyway" back in the day to GHWB).


Kerry is just a stupid idiot: sucking up to Repubs and insulting Jews in the global fascist center at the CFR

[NewYorkerfromMass]

13. So square all that with support of Jesse Jackson

just because something was said untoward and NOT for public consumption.

[blm]

14. Wrong. Kerry proposed Clinton be sent two years ago.

Dean is the the second biggest hardliner on Israel after Lieberman. Deal with it. He's backtracked enough in front of Jewish groups.

[Scott Lee]

24. I'm suprised he didn't apologize for it and withdraw the proposition

like he does with so many other issues.

[DrFunkenstein]

31. You're Right - Dean Never Withdrew His Backroom Deals With Sharon

Calling them "even-handed" doesn't do a whole lot for my confidence in his ability as Chief Diplomat.

Shall we take a stroll down selective memory lane? Okay!

In November, Dean paid his first-ever visit to Israel on an excursion that was organized and paid for by AIPAC. He was apparently unperturbed at his sponsors’ close ties to a government that engages in a pattern of gross and systematic human rights violations and blatantly violates a series of UN Security Council resolutions and other international legal principles. During his visit, Dean did not meet with any Palestinian leaders or any Israeli moderates.

He also rejects calls by APN and other liberal Zionist groups that Israel’s requested $12 billion loan guarantee be linked to an Israeli freeze on constructing additional illegal settlements on confiscated Palestinian land, arguing that such aid should instead be unconditional. Pushing for such a dramatic and unconditional increase in financial support for the incumbent government just before Israelis went to the polls in January was widely seen as a not-too-subtle endorsement of Sharon’s re-election.

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0226-04.htm

Dean traveled to Israel on a trip sponsored by the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC). After meeting with Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, Dean stated: “I do not think that as long as Yasser Arafat is president there will be peace." Before leaving, Sharon asked if Dean would support requests for new loan guarantees to Israel. Dean “promised him he would.”

http://www.aaiusa.org/countdown/c120602.htm

Dean believes the Bush administration should be giving Israel $4 billion in military aid to fight terrorism, not the $1 billion it proposed last month.

http://www.jewishsf.com/bk030418/us02.shtml

Last December, Dean told the Jerusalem Post that he unequivocally supported $8 Billion in US loan guarantees for Israel. "I believe that by providing Israel with the loan guarantees...the US will be advancing its own interest," he said. His unconditional support for the loan package, in addition to $4 Billion in outright grants, went further than even some of the most pro-Israel elements in the Bush administration, like Paul Wolfowitz, who wanted to at least include some vague restrictions like pushing Israel to curtail new settlements and accept a timetable to establish a Palestinian state.

In a major foreign policy speech earlier this year, Dean, while calling for an end to Palestinian violence, did not call for an end to Israeli violence, let alone an end to the illegal Israeli occupation.

And when asked whether his views are closer to the dovish Americans for Peace Now (APN) or the right wing, Sharon-supporting American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC), he stated unequivocally in an interview with the Jewish weekly The Forward, "My view is closer to AIPAC's view."

http://www.muslimwakeup.com/mainarchive/000119.html

<>

[JI7]

16. kerry said it 2 years ago

kerry proposed the idea of sending clinton to help 2 years ago.

[a_lil_wall_fly]

19. Well my thought of this is this...

One group doesn't like the idea of Kerry want all countries in the region on the equal level. As well, or if any of the countries don't comply with the issues that have been agreed upon the USA will drop the hammer on them.

[sandnsea]

20. Trying again here

First, evenhanded has a specific meaning to Israelies and Palestinians, and it isn't the same thing I don't think. In the eyes of Israelies, it removes the U.S. alliance with Israel and opens Israel to attacks by terrorists. To Palestinians, it demands they stop their only means of retaliation without requiring Israel to disarm. And, it demands both sides make concessions they aren't necessarily willing to make. That's Clinton's evenhandedness, honest broker policy. The results, not his intentions.

So you can't really say Israel has a right to defend itself which gives a strong message to Palestinians that they cannot continue with terrorist attacks unanswered; and say you are evenhanded at the same time. The two policies are actually in opposition of each other, at least in the eyes of those in I/P.

But, what you can say is that Israel does have a right to defend itself, but that starting from scratch with each new Administration is silly. That we should build on the wisdom of the past to move forward. And while Baker has made some stupid comments, it would appear Bush's (Baker's) policies and Clinton's weren't completely at odds. As opposed to THIS Bush which is the reason Kerry mentioned Baker's name, to make the distinction.

I've read several articles on all this, here's one that sort of sizes it up. http://www.jewishsf.com/bk001208/comm1.shtml

[Scott Lee]

25. It's amazing to watch antiDeans roll over for an antisemite as long

as it appears to help Kerry. This is really stunning stuff.

[sandnsea]

26. Dean likes him

He liked Bush's foreign policy. Baker was Secretary of State.

And a comment, fuck the jews, doen't make one an anti-semite. It makes one a person who is frustrated with trying to create a peaceful solution.

I bet if he said "fuck the Palestinians" he'd be beat up on for being pro-Israel.

The context doesn't matter, just emotional hype. That's what the other side does. We're actually supposed to think and rise to a higher level of understanding, as Democrats.

[coralrf]

29. Fuck Abe Foxman,

and "his list" too..which so far does not exist. Think about it..fuck this guy. He is critical of someone who offers and idea when he has not done shit. Fuck him.