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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 04:59 PM
Original message
Iran sets off nuclear race in the Middle East
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/uncertain-world/1996815/Iran-starts-nuclear-race-in-Middle-East.html

In the 11 months that followed the onset of this procedure in Iran in 2006, 13 countries across the Middle East drew up new plans – or revived old ones – for building nuclear power stations.

The International Institute for Strategic Studies believes they were acting "in the shadow of Iran" and preparing for Tehran's possible entry into the nuclear weapons club.

All the proposed nuclear programmes are civilian schemes designed to generate electricity. At present, there is no question of any international safeguards being breached. Yet if Iran were to test a nuclear bomb, every country in the Middle East would be forced to re-assess its defence policies.

The IISS report argues that Arab countries may have embarked on civil nuclear programmes in order to acquire the option of building a bomb in the future.

<mor>
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Webster Green Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 05:02 PM
Response to Original message
1. Israel set it off. Everybody knows that.
Edited on Tue May-20-08 05:02 PM by Webster Green
WTF?! :wtf:
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Systematic Chaos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 05:08 PM
Response to Original message
2. Amazing.
We carpet bomb them for the oil they have under the ground.

Then, when they try to develop nuclear power to stop this asinine dependence on oil, we find excuses to bomb them again!

The gall of OPs like this one, making that out to be such a terrible, terrible thing. :(
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losthills Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Only a blind man would fail to see cause for concern here...
And I didn't see anything in the piece about "bombing them."

"Iran's stance has raised widespread doubts about its real intentions under President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's leadership.

"The IISS believes that Tehran is seeking a "nuclear weapons capability". Arab countries have a long history of rivalry with Persian Iran. In particular, the Sunni monarchies of the Gulf are deeply suspicious of Tehran's revolutionary Shia regime. They blame Iran for stirring unrest among their own Shia populations.

"Saudi Arabia, the leading Sunni power, would be especially disturbed by a nuclear-armed Iran.

"But the IISS believes that Egypt, which already possesses a solid grounding in nuclear technology, could be the first to build a bomb. "If any country in the region were to follow Iran in developing a latent nuclear weapons capability, however, Egypt may be the most likely candidate," said Mr Chipman.
"
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Systematic Chaos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Well then I guess I'm blind.
Saudi Arabia can kiss my fat white ass.

I'm not going to swallow this propaganda bullshit. Too bad you're willing to.

And yeah, we'll be at war with them soon enough. And it won't fucking be about nuclear power!

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losthills Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. If they were to go to war with each other, with nuclear weapons,
asses of every color, and in every country, would suffer....
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Systematic Chaos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. And millions don't already suffer every year because of
our depleted uranium weaponry?

And they don't suffer because of the waste from your lovely solar bullshit?

And they don't choke to death on fossil fuel soot and gases?

Let them have their nuclear power and stop with the goddamn hysterics, already!
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losthills Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-20-08 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. No "hysterics" on my side...
Nuclear proliferation is a serious issue. In my opinion, it's THE most serious issue in our world today. Bringing up "waste" from solar energy in this particular discussion shows how badly you just don't get it, and I doubt if you are ever going to....
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Nihil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 04:26 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. I disagree with your opinion
> Nuclear proliferation is a serious issue.
> In my opinion, it's THE most serious issue in our world today.

The only reason that "nuclear proliferation" is a serious issue
is that politicians have made it so. Their argument is based solely
on the "*WE* deserve it but *YOU* don't" illogical, irrational and
selfish attitude that, in many ways, typifies politicians of all
stripes.

In the case of Iran, this has been bolstered up by the unquenchable
American greed for oil (no matter where is it found or whose land
is over it) and supported by the "me-too" enabling politicians across
Europe (and elsewhere).

We don't even need to go into the nuclear waste issue, the PV pollution
risks or the 101 other distractions that can be thrown into the discussion
as the above are the main reasons why the US is going to war with Iran.

Seeing how many people believe anything they see on the box or read in
their fish-wrapper, the anti-war voice will yet again be drowned out by
the propaganda machine.

(And after that brief interlude, we can now return to our usual impolite
insult-slinging!)
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madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 06:55 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. It seems to me that 'why' nuclear proliferation is an issue
is no longer an issue. The fact it is is the issue at this point, correct me if I'm wrong.
and somehow PV pollution is on a par with radioactive waste, could'a fooled me.
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malakai2 Donating Member (483 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 07:09 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. Define "on par with"
How do you structure the risk analysis? That might inform a discussion about why or even whether nuclear proliferation is an issue.
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. Not true - proliferation was made an issue by scientists, and was never we deserve you don't
> The only reason that "nuclear proliferation" is a serious issue
> is that politicians have made it so. Their argument is based solely
> on the "*WE* deserve it but *YOU* don't" illogical, irrational and
> selfish attitude that, in many ways, typifies politicians of all
> stripes.

The main force behind non-proliferation has been scientists,
and organizations like Bulletin of Atomic Scientists and Federation of American Scientists.
Scientists like Carl Sagan played a huge role due to their popularity with the public.
Their argument has NEVER been "we deserve it but you don't",
it has always been about preventing the devastation of nuclear war,
by reducing and preferably eliminating completely nuclear weapons.

Unfortunately there has been a lot of outright propaganda here on DU that nuclear weapons are safe and clean.
There was only one "clean" nuclear weapon, the neutron bomb, and *politicians* decided that neither *we* nor *you* should have it because it was so dangerous.

A more recent example: The FAS argument was not "we can have nuclear bunker-busters but others can't", it was "NOBODY should have nuclear bunker-busters". They convinced *politicians* that neither *WE* nor *YOU* should have it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federation_of_American_Scientists

The Federation of American Scientists (FAS)<1> is a non-profit organization formed in 1945 by scientists from the Manhattan Project who felt that scientists, engineers and other innovators had an ethical obligation to bring their knowledge and experience to bear on critical national decisions. Their first projects focused on controlling nuclear weapons and research on civilian nuclear power, issues that remain prominent to FAS today.

Endorsed by 68 Nobel Laureates<2> in chemistry, economics, medicine and physics, FAS now addresses a range of issues where science and technology analysis is critical. FAS members build on a long history of insisting that rational, evidence-based arguments form the basis of national policy.

<snip>
In nuclear weapons, FAS played a key role in helping a bipartisan Congressional effort block funding for the Robust Nuclear Earth Penetrator (RNEP) or “bunker buster.”<3> Using public data, FAS was able to show that the device could not achieve its mission without creating catastrophic collateral damage. FAS inserted this analysis into the debate using printed reports, a computer animation, and numerous briefings for members of Congress and Congressional staff. The work was cited in the Congressional debate.
<snip>


In 2007, the scientists at BAS decided climate change was almost as dangerous as nuclear war:

http://www.thebulletin.org/content/about-us/purpose

History

The Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists was established in 1945 by scientists, engineers, and other experts who had created the atomic bomb as part of the Manhattan Project. They knew about the horrible effects of these new weapons and devoted themselves to warning the public about the consequences of using them. Those early scientists also worried about military secrecy, fearing that leaders might draw their countries into increasingly dangerous nuclear confrontations without the full consent of their citizens.
The Doomsday Clock

In 1947, the Bulletin first displayed the Clock on its magazine cover to convey, through a simple design, the perils posed by nuclear weapons. The Clock evokes both the imagery of apocalypse (midnight) and the contemporary idiom of nuclear explosion (countdown to zero). In 1949, the Clock hand first moved to signal our assessment of world events and trends. The decision to move the minute hand is made by the Bulletin's Board of Directors in consultation with its Board of Sponsors, which includes 18 Nobel Laureates. The Clock has become a universally recognized indicator of the world's vulnerability to catastrophe from nuclear weapons, climate change, and emerging technologies in the life sciences.
Today's challenges

When we moved the hand of the Clock from 7 to 5 minutes to midnight in January 2007, the Bulletin's Board of Directors warned about two major sources of potential catastrophe: the perils of 27,000 nuclear weapons in the world, 2,000 of them ready to launch in minutes, and the destruction of human habitats from climate change.

<snip>



http://www.thebulletin.org/content/media-center/announcements/2007/01/17/doomsday-clock-moves-two-minutes-closer-to-midnight

"Doomsday Clock" Moves Two Minutes Closer To Midnight
17 January 2007

On January 17, 2007, the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists moved the minute hand of the Doomsday Clock two minutes closer to midnight. It is now 5 minutes to midnight. Reflecting global failures to solve the problems posed by nuclear weapons and the climate crisis, the decision by the Bulletin's Board of Directors was made in consultation with the Bulletin's Board of Sponsors, which includes 18 Nobel Laureates.

In a statement supporting the decision to move the hand of the Doomsday Clock, the Bulletin Board focused on two major sources of catastrophe: the perils of 27,000 nuclear weapons, 2,000 of them ready to launch within minutes; and the destruction of human habitats from climate change.

The Bulletin statement explains: "We stand at the brink of a second nuclear age. Not since the first atomic bombs were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki has the world faced such perilous choices. North Korea's recent test of a nuclear weapon, Iran's nuclear ambitions, a renewed emphasis on the military utility of nuclear weapons, the failure to adequately secure nuclear materials, and the continued presence of some 26,000 nuclear weapons in the United States and Russia are symptomatic of a failure to solve the problems posed by the most destructive technology on Earth."

It continues: "The dangers posed by climate change are nearly as dire as those posed by nuclear weapons. The effects may be less dramatic in the short term than the destruction that could be wrought by nuclear explosions, but over the next three to four decades climate change could cause irremediable harm to the habitats upon which human societies depend for survival."

Stephen Hawking, a Bulletin sponsor, professor of mathematics at the University of Cambridge, and a fellow of The Royal Society, said, "As scientists, we understand the dangers of nuclear weapons and their devastating effects, and we are learning how human activities and technologies are affecting climate systems in ways that may forever change life on Earth. As citizens of the world, we have a duty to alert the public to the unnecessary risks that we live with every day, and to the perils we foresee if governments and societies do not take action now to render nuclear weapons obsolete and to prevent further climate change."

<snip much more>



The Truman Administration wanted to eliminate the U.S. arsenal right after WWII,
it was not *WE* deserve them *YOU* don't, it was *NOBODY* deserves them:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_proliferation

History of Nuclear Proliferation

Earnest international efforts to promote nuclear non-proliferation began soon after World War II, when the Truman Administration proposed the Baruch Plan<1> of 1946, named after Bernard Baruch, America's first representative to the United Nations Atomic Energy Commission. The Baruch Plan, which drew heavily from the Acheson-Lilienthal Report of 1946, proposed the verfiable dismantlement and destruction of the U.S. nuclear arsenal (which, at that time, was the only nuclear arsenal in the world) after all governments had cooperated successfully to accomplish two things: (1) the establishment of an "international atomic development authority," which would actually own and control all military-applicable nuclear materials and activities, and (2) the creation of a system of automatic sanctions, which not even the U.N. Security Council could veto, and which would proportionately punish states attempting to acquire the capability to make nuclear weapons or fissile material.


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Nihil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-22-08 05:07 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Originally that was so. These days? Not so much.
The current US policy is 100% "WE deserve them YOU don't" (where "WE"
includes "Our Friends") ... just look back to your own thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x149842

The US decides who can get nuclear materials and who can't ... (for now ...)

> Unfortunately there has been a lot of outright propaganda here on
> DU that nuclear weapons are safe and clean.

Not wishing to sidetrack the main discussion but I haven't seen any of
this? Did you mean in E/E or just in some of the "gutter forums"?
I know that nuclear *power stations* can be safe & clean but
I can't imagine any sane person claiming that nuclear *weapons* are
either safe or clean?!?!
:shrug:
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bananas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. "Not all nuclear weapons are "nukes". Lets educate ourselves a bit."
> The current US policy is 100% "WE deserve them YOU don't" (where "WE"
> includes "Our Friends")...

The Bush administration is in favor of nuclear proliferation,
but as you say, they only want our allies to have it.
They outed Valerie Plame, they tried to weaken the NPT by getting waivers for India,
they even wanted to nuke Iran and break the taboo on using nukes.


> Not wishing to sidetrack the main discussion but I haven't seen any of
> this? Did you mean in E/E or just in some of the "gutter forums"?
> I know that nuclear *power stations* can be safe & clean but
> I can't imagine any sane person claiming that nuclear *weapons* are
> either safe or clean?!?!

"Not all nuclear weapons are "nukes". Lets educate ourselves a bit."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x3059979

There were enough of those posts that someone started a rebuttal thread:
"Not really nukes? I call BULLSHIT"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x3060468#3060496

There have been other people posting that Mutual Assured Destruction worked as a deterrent,
therefore every country should have thousands of nuclear weapons,
that would usher in an era of peace, just like the old west when everyone carried a gun,
there were never any shoot-outs or armed robberies or people shooting themselves in the foot accidently.

Some have said that Hiroshima and Nagasaki rebuilt, so the nukes couldn't have been so bad.
Others have said the nuclear genii is out of the bag so there's no point trying to stop it.

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Nihil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-23-08 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. Wow.
Thanks for the links.

> Some have said that Hiroshima and Nagasaki rebuilt, so the nukes
> couldn't have been so bad.

:wow:

I apologise for doubting you - I really didn't think that people (other
than blatant trolls) would come out with stuff like that.

Whilst I don't know how to get the nuclear weapon genii back into its
bottle either, I was quite surprised at some of that stuff from GD.
(Explains why I don't often go there I suppose.)

:hi:
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-21-08 08:14 AM
Response to Original message
11. Could the switch to Nuclear energy be the related problems of OIL??.
Edited on Wed May-21-08 08:15 AM by happyslug
i.e. seeing a DROP in oil production, every country in the Persia Gulf is looking at the best alternative for electricity generation? i.e. NOT bombs but electrical power? Given the drop in Oil Production (Real but not admitted).

Please note the telegraph is a well known Right Wing British Newspaper, so they jumping to the conclusion that it is for the BOMB the countries are going Nuclear fits with their right wing agenda. The fact that the Countries are all looking at nuclear electrical generation is dismissed, even through that is what each country is building.
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