Automakers tout clean diesel as new savior

[DainBramaged]

Seizing on sky-high gasoline prices, automakers and industry trade groups are boosting their promotion of clean diesel vehicles to Congress.

Volkswagen Group, Chrysler and Bosch, a global automotive technology supplier, are among a handful of auto groups working to morph diesel’s image as a foul-smelling, smog-forming fuel into a quick antidote for global warming.

Clean diesel vehicles run on ultralow sulfur diesel that was mandated in 2000 by the Clinton administration and that debuted in 2006. The fuel contains 97 percent less sulfur than traditional diesel and is being phased in at service stations nationwide by 2010.

Even though diesel fuel prices soar well above regular gasoline, supporters of clean diesel say its fuel economy savings and incentives would offset the high fuel costs. Most clean diesel vehicles sell for only about $1,000 more than their gasoline-fueled counterparts.

Capitol Hill has long been abuzz over solar power, wind farms and nuclear plants as the elixir for carbon emission, but widespread use of those technologies is still several years and several policy fights away.

As lawmakers call for relief through gas-tax holidays and opening the nation’s Strategic Petroleum Reserve, auto lobbyists are touting the high fuel economy of clean diesel cars — up to 40 percent better fuel economy and 20 percent less emission than regular cars — as a way to make driving both greener and more affordable.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0708/11635.html


Took them long enough

[Clear Blue Sky]

1. If diesel fuel was the same price or cheaper than gas,

as it is outside the US, then this would make good sense. The added cost of the vehicle and the fuel seem to offset the better mileage.

[DainBramaged]

4. There is very little cost increase (as compared to a hybrid)

and they get better mileage, check out any of the European micro diesels available. VW and Opel lead the way.

[kristopher]

8. I don't think the issue is sulfur - it is CO2.

[Howzit]

10. Yes, but higher efficiency means less CO2 and diesels can run off carbon neutral oils,

such as: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x160268 without major changes to infrastructure.

[kristopher]

13. So you expect this to be adopted for heavy equipment, aircraft and ships?

It is going to take everything we can do to produce enough biofuels for those cases where the energy density of liquid fuels is required. Personal transportation isn't one of those applications - much better is achieved going with battery electric. ANY ICE is a nonstarter for that sector.

[Howzit]

14. No single form of energy is going to replace all other forms. Consider this diesel as supplemental

It amuses me to see the rivalry between the "solar and wind only, no nukes" and "nukes only, no solar or wind" factions. Or in your case, "EV only, no IC". I think there is room for all forms of energy. You may wish all personal IC powered vehicles were replaced with electric ones tomorrow, but that just isn't going to happen.

How many car are on US roads? How long would it take to build replacements for all of them? Who is going to pay for the new vehicles? By all means, if you were about to buy a new car, buy an electric; but everyone, overnight - keep on dreaming!

[DainBramaged]

16. How do you remove all of the trucks on the roads used for business??

Inquiring minds want to know that of EV only proponents.

[kristopher]

18. You don't.

But the cost differential between operating an EV and operating an ICE will force a re-evaluation of the number of heavy vehicles as well as the overall way they are used. For example, instead of everyone on a construction crew having their own personal pickup, there may be one vehicle that is assigned the job of tool caddy and site hauling, while each person's means of getting to and from the site is a personal EV.

[AndyTiedye]

25. Rail Will Replace Much of Our Current Trucking, Especially Long-Haul

Trains can run directly from overhead wires, or as diesel-electric hybrids, and they are more efficient than trucks.

[DainBramaged]

27. No it won't, America is not going back to the 1800's in spite of your hopes it will

[AndyTiedye]

28. Who Said Anything About Going Back to the 1800s?

I presume your hostility to rail stems from your concern for the jobs of UAW members.
EMD is the 2nd-largest builder of locomotives in North America.
They were part of GM until 2005. Weren't they unionized along with the rest of GM? Aren't they still?

Seems to me that a lot of UAW members could be put to work building trains.

[kristopher]

17. The personal transportation fleet

The personal transportation fleet of approximately 180,000,000 light duty vehicles in this country largely replaces itself every 8 years. So, allowing for a short period for retooling the plants, there is little reason that at least half of the fleet couldn't be replaced with EV within 10 years. The "everyone overnight" nonsense you are falsely attributing to me is called a "strawman" since I've never made any such claim either directly or by implication. Also, I'm not advocating for given technology; I'm just sharing my opinion of the way the solutions to the twin problems of energy security and global warming will end up shaking out. There are valid and significant reasons for the projections I make and the fact that you fail to understand either the problems or the solutions is yours, not mine. Your view of the issues is one that is largely based on ignorance. If you wanted to cure that, you could; but it would take both humility and the willingness to devote a great deal of time and effort - both of which you seem to lack.

[Howzit]

20. "I'm not advocating for a given technology"

My dear old chap

You are obviously well informed, objective and passionate. Your posting history also shows that you are on a mission. A mission to promote solar power and electric vehicles, and along with nuclear power to demonize the reciprocating piston internal combustion engine and the industry that spawned it.

Clear evidence of the latter statement is seen in the post where you say: "Damn those automakers for sitting on these technologies." http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x160626#160664

While fomenting hatred of the auto industry gives you credibility with the average DU reader, your promotion of the Wankel engine as superior technology in that post suggests an instance where passion drowned out objectivity. If you had spent a little time to inform yourself, you would know that the Wankel engine is inferior to the conventional gasoline piston engine in fuel efficiency, torque, durability and hydrocarbon emissions. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x160626#160931

I say there is a place for almost any kind of technology. That the market will weed out the poor performers and find its own balance. Despite being an old invention, the Wankel has all but died out due to poor performance. This is as it should be - there is no conspiracy behind it.

[kristopher]

21. I take it back

You won't be able to repair your deficiencies with study. The idea apparently escaped you that I might have been making a sarcastic remark directed at those who seem to think such technologies are suppressed. I thought the fact that Mazda has been using rotary engine design for decades would be a tip off, but I guess I was overly optimistic.

As to the "mission" you perceive me to be on, it is strictly one of adhering to truth and logic. There are a group of posters on this forum who constantly deviate from those basic tenets of good manners in order to promote a rather dubious agenda.

[amandabeech]

9. I thought that diesels were only a little more expensive than regular cars,

rather than a little less expensive than the full hybrid Prius.

Diesels are great for highway driving--the VW Golf gets close to 60 for some drivers. The Prius is clearly the better choice for city or stop-n-go driving however.

Another diesel advanage may be that the heavier diesel fuel may be easier to refine from the heavy petroleum likely to become a much larger share of the petroleum coming out of the ground.

The cheapest thing to do might be to do more car-pooling with the SUV fleet until it dies.

[DainBramaged]

12. They are only about $1000, except trucks are WAY more expensive

Need much heavier duty components because of the amazing ammount of torque they put out.


GM makes a boatload of microcars and diesels for Europe, too bad they aren't available here.

http://www.vauxhall.co.uk/vx/home.do

http://www.vauxhall.co.uk/vx/microsite/diesel08/index.html

[Howzit]

15. Aren't available, or aren't allowed here? NT

[amandabeech]

24. My understanding is that U.S. and European emissions standards,

while reaching similar goals, have different approaches which make the popular European diesels acceptable in Europe but not here, at least without modificiation. However, lowering the allowable sulfur content of diesel here may change that.

Also, there are somewhat different crash safety standards and, until now, no reason to bring the little diesels here. Who would want one when a Cadillac Escalade is availble? Ha-ha.

I would expect to see modified versions of the Gm and Ford euro cars here in modified versions soon if gas prices remain high. After all, the Contour/Mystique (whose handling I loved) and the Focus are modified Eurocars. Some versions of the Escort were Eurocars, too.

[loveable liberal]

2. "clean diesel"... Pah...

probably like "clean coal"... no such thing.

[DainBramaged]

3. Ever stand behind one of the new diesels that run on low sulfur diesel fuel?

Put a clean white handkerchief over the exhaust for a minute and do the same thing with ANY gas burner.

This is the year 2008. Not 1976.

[AndyTiedye]

5. Poorly-Maintained Diesels Spew A Lot More Smoke

Though they also burn more fuel, and $5/gallon would seem to create some incentive to keep the engine tuned up.

[DainBramaged]

6. Again, have you even driven one of the new diesels?

I have, on many occasions. As with so many other gripes, the new generation of diesels will quickly silence critics.


I'm sorry you don't like the smell of those old buses in your city, but yell at the city government not me.

[AndyTiedye]

7. Not Hatin' on Diesels, Just Sayin' Maintenance is Important

Hopefully, those who own diesels (new or old) will be motivated to maintain them.

High fuel prices provide some motivation, since a diesel that spews smoke also wastes fuel.

With gas vehicles, we have regular emissions testing to ensure some level of maintenance.
That is not generally the case with diesels, is it?

I have not driven any of the new diesels. They are not available in California AFAIK.

[girl gone mad]

22. diesel engines require less maintenance..

than gas engines. They tend to last much longer, too.

[Strelnikov_]

23. They do require less maintenance, but maintenance is more critical

than your average spark-ignition engine, particularly Hondas or Toyotas.

This applies to the modern 'high-performance' diesels they are putting in automobiles, such as my '05 TDI or the next-gen 'clean diesels'.

These powerplants are expensive (~ equal to the price premium for a hybrid powertrain). A Prius is really a better bet for someone who does want to stay on top of maintenance.

Go browse tdiclub.com for a while.

Properly maintained, these engines will last a long time, as you note. Use the wrong oil, though (mine takes $6/qt. oil, spec. 505.01), say bye to the engine in 20-40k. Forget to change the fuel filter, possibly say bye to injectors, injector pumps or both.

Not to mention finding a mechanic who will correctly perform the work. Not to mention the 'european car premium' one pays for parts.

I am still 50/50 on (small) diesel vs. spark ignition hybrid. Both have advantages over the other.

But if one is looking for low-maintenance, I would go Prius (or other spark-ignition hybrid).

[Howzit]

11. Diesels can run off carbon neutral oils obtained from non-food sources, such as

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x160268

[kristopher]

19. Of course, there is the matter of costs

If we switch to carbon neutral fuels by mandate or by the imposition of policies to capture the carbon costs of fossil fuels, then the demand for the biofuels will increase to include aircraft, ships, and heavy equipment. If you think this is a low cost, environmentally friendly carbon neutral solution you are in for a very big surprise.

[hunter]

26. Kiss your fantasy of LNG imports goodbye...

Anybody who might have natural gas to export will be turning it into "clean" diesel instead.