Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

CUBA is most sustainable nation on the planet - Cuba, an energy model

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Environment/Energy Donate to DU
 
Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-15-09 11:27 AM
Original message
CUBA is most sustainable nation on the planet - Cuba, an energy model
Thanks to DUer magbana for posting this in the Latin America forum... http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=405&topic_id=12739&mesg_id=12739


CUBA is most sustainable nation on the planet - Cuba, an energy model

Picked up from the CubaNews List

From: compostgal@aol.com
To: janefranklin@hotmail..com
Subject: CUBA Fwd: Fw: An energy model
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 11:55:40 -0400

From: Laura Kaplan <laurakaplan@igc.org >Date: March 11, 2009 7:04:44 PM EDTTo: "Grailnycregion@yahoogroups.com " <Grailnycregion@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Fw: An energy modelReply-To: Grailnycregion@yahoogroups.com
02/13/2009
Viva La Revolución Energética

Take the "Renewable Energy and Energy Education Tour" to Cuba from March 8 - 15, sponsored by Solar Energy International and Global Exchange.. Contact Leslie Balog

By Laurie Guevara-Stone

What nation is the most sustainable in the world? If you guessed Sweden or Denmark, you would be wrong. Instead, the World Wildlife Fund (WWF) has declared Cuba as the only country on the planet that is approaching sustainable development. Key to this designation is the island's Revolución Energética, an energy conservation effort launched only two years ago.

The WWF's Living Planet Report 2006 assesses sustainable development using the United Nations Development Programme's (UNDP) Human Development Index (HDI) and the ecological footprint. The index is calculated using life expectancy, literacy and education, and per capita GDP.

The UNDP considers an HDI value of more than 0.8 to be high human development. According to the ecological footprint, a measure of human demand on the biosphere, 1.8 global hectares per person or less denotes sustainability. The only country in the world that meets both of the above criteria is Cuba..

From Blackouts to Efficiency

Just a few years ago, Cuba's energy situation was bleak. This communist nation of 11 million people had 11 large, inefficient thermoelectric plants that functioned less than half of the time. There were frequent blackouts and high transmission line losses. Adding to the crisis, most Cubans had inefficient appliances, 75% of the population cooked with kerosene and residential electrical rates did not encourage conservation.In 2004, back-to-back hurricanes slammed into Cuba, leaving a million people without electr icity for 10 days. In the face of an antiquated system, violent storms, peak oil and climate change, Cubans realized that they had to make energy a priority. Thus, in 2006, they embarked on their Revolución Energética.Only two years later, the country consumes 34% less kerosene, 37% less LPG (liquefied petroleum gas) and 80% less gasoline. Cuba's per capita energy consumption is one-eighth that in the US, while Cubans' access to health services, education levels and life expectancy rival those of their North American neighbors.

Prior to the 1959 Cuban revolution, only about half of the country's population had electricity. By 1989, that number had risen to 95%. After 1991, however, food, gas and oil all became scarce as a result of the collapse of the Soviet Union and the US economic blockade. This time came to be known as the "Special Period" because Cubans had to learn how to produce more of their food, medicines and energy locally and sustainably.In the mid-1990s, Cuba embarked on a drive to save energy and use more renewables. All rural schools, health clinics and social centers not previously connected to the grid were supplied with solar energy, making lights, computers and educational television programs accessible to all students. This program garnered Cuba the Global 500 award from the United Nations in 2001.However, despite 10 years of revolutionary effort, Cuba still had a crisis on its hands. So in 2006, it took some dr astic steps. Cuba's energy revolution has five main aspects: energy efficiency and conservation, increasing the availability and reliability of the national grid, incorporating more renewable energy technologies into its energy portfolio, increasing the exploration and production of local oil and gas, and international cooperation.In an address to the Cuban electrical utility in 2006, then-president Fidel Castro said, "We are not waiting for fuel to fall from the sky, because we have discovered, fortunately, something muchmore important: energy conservation, which is like finding a great oil deposit."

To decrease energy demand, Cuba began changing over to more efficient appliances. In two years, residents have replaced almost two million refrigerators, over one million fans, 182,000 air conditioners and 260,000 water pumps.. Compact fluorescent light bulbs were handed out for free and within six months, over nine million - or almost 100% - of the island's incandescent bulbs had been replaced. At the same time, Cubans were discouraged from cooking with kerosene. Families have consequently purchased almost 3.5 million rice cookers and over three million pressure cookers.To encourage conservation, Cuba introduced a new residential electrical tariff. People consuming less than 100 kWh per month pay 0.09 pesos per kWh (a fraction of a cent). For every increase of 50 kWh per month the rate rises steeply. Consumers using over 300 kWh per month pay 1.30 pesos per kWh.

Cuba's national energy program implemented in 1997, teaches Cubans about energy-saving measures and renewable energy. "If we begin to insist on at the preschool age, we are creating a conduct for life," explains Teresa Palenzuela, a specialist with Cuba's energy-saving program.The program has held energy festivals for the past three years, educating thousands about efficiency and conservation. The festivals target students, who express energy conservation through songs, poetry and theatre. In each Cuban school, the children with the best energy efficiency projects go on to the festival at the municipal level. The best of them then move on to a provincial event and from there to the national stage. The public lines up for blocks to attend the national festival. "These contests are important to the entire country; they motivate children, students and the general population to save energy in all their actions," says 15-year-old Liliana Rodríguez Peña.Social Workers Power the Revolution

To carry out its ambitious energy conservation plan, Cuba relies on its small army of trabajadores sociales or social workers. Cuba's social workers are made up of youth who have the task of bringing social justice to the island in many different spheres, including labor, education, culture, sports and the environment ..As well as assisting people with disabilities, the elderly and those convicted of crimes, the social workers help carry out the Energy Revolution.. Since 2006, 13,000 social workers have visited homes, businesses and factories around the island, replacing light bulbs, teaching people how to use their new electric cooking appliances and spreading information on saving energy. The social workers also teamed up with the Ministry of Agriculture to save energy during the sugar cane harvest and for the national bus system.. Former president Fidel Castro, who founded the program, refers to the social workers as "Doctors of the Soul."

Media Promotes Efficiency TooThe media does its bit to help disseminate information about energy. Dozens of billboards that promote conservation are scattered across the country, a weekly television show is dedicated to energy issues, and articles espousing renewable energy, efficiency and conservation appear regularly in newspapers. In 2007 alone, there were over 8000 articles and TV spots dedicated to energy efficiency.Nonetheless, in 2005, blackouts were still common as a result of an old and inefficient electrical grid. Thus began the move to decentralized energy, which involves generating electricity in smaller substations.In 2006, Cuba installed more than 1800 diesel and fuel-oil micro-electrical plants, which now produce over 3000 MW of power in 110 municipalities.. This switch virtually=2 0eliminated the blackouts. In 2004 and 2005, there were over 400 days of blackouts greater than 100 MW that lasted at least an hour. In 2006, there were three and in 2007 there were none at all.Cuba also embarked on an impressive plan to fix its old electrical transmission network. It upgraded over 120,000 electrical posts, installed almost 3000 kilometres of cable and half a million electric meters. As a result, the nation reduced the amount of oil needed to produce a kWh of electricity by 3%, from 280 grams in 2005 to 271 grams in 2007. It is estimated that over the same period, Cuba saved almost 872,000 tons of oil through its energy-saving measures.Cuba is also incorporating renewables into its energy mix. 100 wind-measuring stations and two new wind farms bring the island's total wind energy installation to 7..23 MW. They are also developing the country's first grid-tied 100 kW solar electric plant."We need a global energy revolution," says Mario Alberto Arrastia Avila, an energy expert with Cubaenergia, an energy information centre. "But for this to happen we also need a revolution in consciousness. Cuba has undertaken its own path towards a new energy paradigm, applying concepts like distributed generation, efficiency, education, energy solidarity and the gradual solarization of the country."

++++Laurie Guevara-Stone is the international program manager at Solar Energy International, a non-profit renewable energy education organization based in Colorado.

Learn More:

Cubaenergía, the Center for Energy Information and Development in Cuba

Cubasolar

Trina Paulus86 Elm StreetMontclair NJ 07042-3207973-746-8715Compostgal@aol.com



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
PDJane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-15-09 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
1. perhaps good ideas and generosity
are why the US doesn't deal with Cuba? How dare they have ideas that work and sustainable development right on the US doorstep.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-15-09 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Perhaps why the US gov keeps Americans travel banned from Cuba.
Cuba is nothing like the dark and dreary place the US gov & RW Miamicuban radical exiles depict it as being. It is among the more progressive countries in the world.

Been there. Seen it.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-15-09 11:37 AM
Response to Original message
3. I like the electrical tariff.
<<To encourage conservation, Cuba introduced a new residential electrical tariff. People consuming less than 100 kWh per month pay 0.09 pesos per kWh (a fraction of a cent). For every increase of 50 kWh per month the rate rises steeply. Consumers using over 300 kWh per month pay 1.30 pesos per kWh.>>
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kristopher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 07:02 AM
Response to Reply #3
11. Look for something similar here soon.
One element of the smart grid is that it would enable "locational marginal pricing" at the retail level. When you want to use an electrical appliance, you will know what the cost of the electricity is at the moment you are using it. Periods of high demand will be priced higher than periods of low demand; often by a factor of 20X or more between extremes.
This will do wonders to smooth the demand curve and much more effectively utilize the generating and transmission infrastructure.

On TOP of that a regressive pricing structure would help deter demand.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Terrific. Thanks. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Optical.Catalyst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-17-09 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #11
26. The electrical distribution system's built in capacity to handle the top peak demand drives up cost
Being able to meet peak demand without failure of the electric grid is quite expensive. It is along the lines of the 20/80 rule. The last 20% of the infrastructure accounts for 80% of the cost. Meeting that top 20% of the demand incurs an increase of 80% of infrastructure cost. Out of 80% of usage of the grid, the part included to handle the peak is only used 20% of the time. (numbers for example purposes only)

If we could use smart grids that reduce peak loads, we could reduce costs not only in distribution, but also in generation. We will be better off when the grid is smart enough to cut back automatically on power hungry appliances like air conditioners during peak loads. Having the smart grid make small, temporary changes to the household thermostat during peak loads would be a big step in the right direction.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
skooooo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-15-09 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
4. We really showed Cuba, didn't we????!

:eyes:

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nradisic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-15-09 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
5. Laurie Guevara-Stone?
Is she Che Guevara's daughter? That would be cool...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Davis_X_Machina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-15-09 12:21 PM
Response to Original message
6. They *do* have a ridiculously small...
....per-capita energy consumption compared to that of the US, smaller by a factor of nearly 10.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FloridaJudy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-15-09 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. I'm not knocking Cuba's efforts to conserve
But I suspect climate plays a role. Cuba is sub-tropical. It gets hot there, but not to the 110 degrees typical of some places in the Middle East, and it never snows or freezes. I expect if Cubans had to survive New England winters or Baghdad summers the story might be quite different
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #7
13. Sorta. Cuba gets hurricanes that literally wipes the grid off the map.
As you might remember, Cuba was hit with major hurricanes over the last couple of years that destroyed the entire grid, so Cuba has had to develop alternate and more local solutions.

Still, Cuba manages to reduce death and injury to the lowest possible in hurricane alley because of their 1st class disaster mitigation programs.

DISASTER PLANNING ESSENTIAL FOR MINIMIZING RISKS
http://www.oxfamamerica.org/whatwedo/emergencies/asian_floods_2004/background/cubalessons
Oxfam America recently studied the experience of Cuba in its development of disaster prevention and mitigation programs.  Situated in the Caribbean Sea, Cuba frequently stands in the way of serious hurricanes.  While its neighbors are battered, losing lives and property, Cuba is unusually good at withstanding these calamities, and suffers much fewer dead.
Oxfam’s report, entitled Weathering the Storm: Lessons in Risk Reduction in Cuba cites a number of attributes of Cuba’s risk reduction program that can be applied by other countries.  Three in particular are transferable to Asia and other regions:

  • * Disaster Preparedness: Cuba was especially good at mobilizing entire communities to develop their own disaster preparations.  This involves mapping out vulnerable areas of the community, creating emergency plans, and actually simulating emergencies so people can practice evacuations and other measures designed to save lives.  When disaster strikes, people know what to do.

  • * Commitment of Resources: Cuba’s strong central government prioritizes resources for its civil defense department.  This helps the country to build up a common understanding of the importance of saving lives, and the citizens trust that their contributions to the government are well used for this purpose.  Their collaboration on developing emergency plans helped build confidence in the government, so people trust in the plan they helped develop. 

  • * Communications: The communications system for emergencies in Cuba builds on local resources.  Using local radio stations and other media to issue warnings on potential hazards also reinforces the disaster preparations.  Since the local population is already involved in mapping risks and creating emergency plans, they are more inclined to act on emergency bulletins.  Good communications, packaged simply, and built on existing, commonly used resources, is another way to build trust in disaster preparations.

    Cuba is a unique example.  There is a strong central government committed to protecting all its citizens, even the poorest and most isolated who are typically the most at risk.  The most common natural disaster in Cuba is a hurricane, a threat visible for days and even weeks in advance.  Yet building a culture of disaster preparedness, and involving local communities in mitigating risks, are strategies that can be applied in many other places, regardless of how rich or poor a country might be.



  • Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
     
    excess_3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-15-09 10:11 PM
    Response to Original message
    8. there would be many benefits if the enlightened world took Cuba
    as its economic role model.
    what is Europe and Canada waiting for?

    ('enlightened world', the world minus the US)
    Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
     
    OneBlueSky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-15-09 10:54 PM
    Response to Original message
    9. gee . . . think we could actually learn something from Cuba? . . .
    nah . . . we didn't learn anything from the Native Americans, so there's no reason to think we could learn from our neighbors to the south . . .

    then again, it's still not too late to learn from the Native Americans OR the Cubans . . . or anyone else who demonstrates responsible and respectful ways of living on the planet . . . all it would take would be a little national humility, enough to admit that Americans don't know everything and that the American way of doing things is not always the best way . . . (in fact, it seldom is) . . .

    maybe the greatest gift Obama could give this country would be a lesson in national humility . . . now wouldn't that just kick some right wing butt!?! . .
    Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
     
    XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 03:22 AM
    Response to Original message
    10. If it's so great there
    then why are so many people risking their lives to come here? :shrug:
    Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
     
    Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 10:18 AM
    Response to Reply #10
    15. Same reason as immigrants from all over the Latin Americas and Caribbean come to the US.
    Edited on Mon Mar-16-09 10:20 AM by Mika
    Higher paying jobs, and a shot at "the American dream".

    But...

    Cubans are granted special immigration perks that are offered to no other immigrant group seeking entry into the US.

    Immigrants come to the US from all over the world - from democratic countries. They come here for opportunities to earn more money than they could back at home. They come to work so that they can send a little of their earnings back to their relatives. It has little to do with "despotic' regimes, it has more to do with earning power.

    Cuba is a special case though, in that it is the US's Helms-Burton law (and a myriad of other sanctions) that are intended to cripple the Cuban economy. This is the stated goal of the US government, as evidenced by the Bush* admin's latest 'crackdown' on family remittances to Cuba and increased sanctions on the island and US & foreign corporations that seek to do business with Cuba. that have been eased ever so slightly recently.

    The USA currently offers over 20,000 LEGAL immigration visas per year to Cubans (and Bush has announced that the number would increase despite the fact that not all 20,000 were applied for in the last few years). This number is more than any other single country in the world. The US interests section in Cuba does the required criminal background check on the applicants.

    The US's 'wet foot/ dry foot' policy (that applies to Cubans only) permits all Cubans, including Cuban criminals and felons, who arrive on US shores by illegal means to remain in the US even those having failed to qualify (or even apply) for a legal US immigration application.

    Cubans who leave for the US without a US visa are returned to Cuba (if caught at sea - mainly in smuggler's go-fast boats @ $5,000 per head) by a US/Cuban repatriation agreement. But IF they make it to US soil, no matter who they are or what their criminal backround might be, they get to stay in the US and enjoy perks offered ONLY TO CUBAN IMMIGRANTS (via the US's Cuban Adjustment Act and a variety of other 'Cubans only' perks)

    For Cuban migrants ONLY - including the aforementioned illegal immigrants who are smuggled in as well as those who have failed a US background check for a legal visa who make it here by whatever means - the US's Cuban Adjustment Act instantly allows any and all Cuban migrants who touch US shore (no matter how) instant entry, instant work visa, instant green card status, instant social security, instant access to welfare, instant access to section 8 assisted housing (with a $41,000 income exemption for Cuban expats only), instant food stamps, plus more. IOW, extra special enhanced social programs designed to entice Cuban expatriation to Miami/USA.

    Despite these programs designed to offer a 'carrot on a stick' to Cubans only, the Cubaphobe rhetoric loop repeats the question "why do Cubans come to the US then?".

    First the US forces economic deprivation on Cubans, then open our doors to any and all Cubans illegal or not, and then offer them a plethora of immigration perks and housing perks not even available to native born Americans.

    But yet, more immigrants come from Mexico and the Latin Americas than do Cubans, and they have no such "Adjustment Act" like Cubans do. But they still pour in.

    Plus, Cuban immigrants can hop on a plane from Miami to Havana and travel right back to the Cuba that they "escaped" from for family trips and vacations - by the hundred of thousands annually (until Bush's recent one visit every 3 yrs restrictions on Cuban expats living in the US).

    Recognizing the immorality of forced starvation and forced economic deprivation is a good reason to drop the US embargo on Cuba, the US Cuban Adjustment Act, and the US travel sanctions placed on US citizens and residents. Then the Cuban tourism economy (its #1 sector) would be able to expand even faster, thereby increasing the average wage and quality of life in Cuba. It would make products, goods, and services even more accessible to both Cubans and Americans. It would reduce the economic based immigration flow from Cuba. And it would restore our own constitutional right to travel unfettered to see Cuba for ourselves.


    Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
     
    alexandria Donating Member (175 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 09:31 PM
    Response to Reply #10
    19. Because they hate living in paradise? NT
    Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
     
    Nederland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 10:16 AM
    Response to Original message
    14. One little problem
    Nobody wants to live like Cubans do.
    Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
     
    Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 10:23 AM
    Response to Reply #14
    16. Except 11 million Cubans.
    What a load of horse shit you peddle.

    I know plenty of Americans and poor people all over the world who would give their "left one" to have universal health care and universal higher ed for their children and family.

    You need to get around a little more and meet more poor people.



    Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
     
    Nederland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 02:38 PM
    Response to Reply #16
    17. Yeah...
    ...and how many of those 11 million risk their lives every year to leave? :eyes:
    Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
     
    Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-16-09 09:03 PM
    Response to Reply #17
    18. You tell us. Its your "point".
    Many times fewer the number than come from Mexico, but let us know when you get the numbers. Thanks.





    Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
     
    Nederland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-17-09 01:09 AM
    Response to Reply #18
    20. Glad to
    Edited on Tue Mar-17-09 01:11 AM by Nederland
    I was able to find these two estimates:


    "Roughly 10 percent of Mexico's population of about 107 million is now living in the United States, estimates show. About 15 percent of Mexico's labor force is working in the United States."

    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/05/21/MNGFQIVNAF1.DTL


    "Emigration from Cuba (sometimes referred to as 'the Cuban exodus') in the last half century has led more than two million Cubans of all social classes to the United States"

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuba#cite_note-139


    So doing a little rough math (according to you there are 11 million people living in Cuba), it's obvious that a higher percentage of Cubans have sought to leave Cuba than Mexicans have sought to leave Mexico.
    Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
     
    Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-17-09 07:17 AM
    Response to Reply #20
    21. Surely you don't think that a majority came by "risking their lives"?
    Edited on Tue Mar-17-09 07:39 AM by Mika
    The VAST majority came to the US via airplane, with ticket and US immigration visa in hand, and that is still the case.

    The USA has offered Cubans more than 20,000 immigration visas annually for many decades, more than any other single nation - not all are even applied for in the last several years.

    In addition to the massive amount of immigration visas, the USA offers Cuban migrants many perks that are available ONLY to Cuban immigrants.

    Then there's the US's Cuban Adjustment Act and the US's Wet Foot/ Dry Foot policy that allows undocumented Cuban illegal entrants to stay in the US and gain access to all of the aforementioned Cubans-only perks offered to legal Cuban immigrants.

    None of these "carrot on a stick" plethora of perks are available to any other immigrant demographic, they are for Cubans only.

    Just imagine the numbers of immigrants from Mexico (as an example) if the US offered similar percentages of immigration visas, perks, and a "Mexican Adjustment Act" like Cubans get.




    Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
     
    Nederland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-17-09 10:11 AM
    Response to Reply #21
    22. No
    No, I don't think they all risked their lives to come here, although many certainly do.

    My point is simply this: lots of people from Cuba want to leave and come to the US. Lots of people want to leave Mexico and come to the US. They want to leave their own countries and come to the US because they think their life will be better here. Are they right? Will their life be better? Only they can answer that question for themselves, that is not for people like you and I to judge.

    One thing is certain however: a society where a significant percentage of the population wants to leave is not a "sustainable" one.
    Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
     
    Nihil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-17-09 11:13 AM
    Response to Reply #22
    23. Apples & oranges?
    > One thing is certain however: a society where a significant percentage
    > of the population wants to leave is not a "sustainable" one.

    The society being left is not necessarily less sustainable (with or without
    the quotes) but it *is* more greedy, more opulent & more wasteful and
    with more opportunity to become greedy/opulent/wasteful than the one
    they are leaving.

    In most cases, the word "sustainable" is associated with less greed,
    less opulence & less waste so you are effectively under-mining your
    own argument with your last paragraph.
    :shrug:
    Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
     
    XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-17-09 12:29 PM
    Response to Reply #23
    25. I think the point that was being made
    is that a society that is only "sustainable" due to massive outflux is really not a sustainable society at all.

    I think the term "sustainable" is a bullshit term.

    Pre-contact Inuit were totally sustainable, but they may have killed up to 80% of their infants in order to achieve such sustainability. Is that at all cool? No.
    Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
     
    Nihil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-17-09 07:12 PM
    Response to Reply #25
    27. If it is *only* sustainable due to the outflux then yes, I agree.
    (i.e., only possible due to it rather than just being helped by it).

    "Sustainable" becomes bullshit if used in a greenwash way or if taken
    to hyperbolic extremes. The Inuit in your example weren't so much
    "sustainable" as "viable" - the population survived despite the ebb & flow
    of resources but the mechanism of survival was the same as that of
    foxes, rabbits, rats or elephants rather than "civilized people".
    (Remember, "civilized people" only kill the infants of a different tribe!)

    Anyway, I concede the point about Cuba as that is far too hot a topic for
    many Americans and my only interest is that they have taken advantage of
    their need to rebuild by rebuilding in a greener, better way than many of
    the other people who have also been hit by hurricanes.

    (FWIW, I think the term "cool" is a bullshit term but maybe that's just me :P)
    Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
     
    The2ndWheel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-17-09 11:20 AM
    Response to Reply #22
    24. A society where everyone wants in on the game isn't sustainable either
    Seems that nobody can escape physical reality.
    Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
     
    DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Wed May 01st 2024, 04:00 AM
    Response to Original message
    Advertisements [?]
     Top

    Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Environment/Energy Donate to DU

    Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
    Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


    Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

    Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

    About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

    Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

    © 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC