Nonrenewable renewables: The hidden life of biofuels

[4dsc]

Excellent analogy of so-called renewable or alternative energy sources..

http://energybulletin.net/17353.html

That, anyway, is the extent of the story one might get from recent coverage of the biofuels boom. But are these fuels really the renewable wonders they seem? That may hinge on what people mean by renewable. If they mean that for a limited time the crops from which liquid biofuels are made can be repeatedly grown, harvested and processed to make biofuels, then they are perhaps in a very narrow sense correct. If what they mean by renewable is sustainable, then they are just plain wrong. Biofuels produced the way we are producing them today are not even close to sustainable. In truth, the current production methods for biofuels are more like mining operations than farming operations. That calls into question whether such fuels can deliver the benefits which are now being so incessantly trumpeted in the news media.

To understand why this is so, we have to go beyond the fleeting glimpses of farm fields that we get from our cars--glimpses that for many of us form the sum total of our knowledge of farming. If one were to stand across from a field of corn or soybeans for an entire season, one would, in most cases, witness the following: plowing done with a tractor, planting using large mechanical planters, the spraying of herbicides and pesticides, the application of fertilizers, irrigation (in some cases), and harvesting done by large machinery. In fact, one would see that all of the heavy field work is done by petroleum-powered machines.

This style of industrial farming involves huge petroleum and natural gas inputs to fuel the machinery; to make and apply the herbicides, pesticides and fertilizers; and to irrigate and harvest the crops. Many people don't know that oil is the basis for most herbicides and pesticides and that natural gas is the basis for most of the world's nitrogen fertilizers. (Nitrogen fertilizers are used heavily on corn, but not on soybeans which produce their own nitrogen.) Both oil and natural gas are finite resources; their use to help grow crops for fuel can in no way be called sustainable. In effect, we are mining finite hydrocarbons to grow crops for biofuels.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

1. Thank you! I have been shouting this for years

and it goes double for the "hydrogen economy" they love to blather on about in DC

Biofuels produced the way we are producing them today are not even close to sustainable. In truth, the current production methods for biofuels are more like mining operations than farming operations.

I love that line.

[yourout]

2. Modern tilling methods along with more efficient tractors......

have greatly reduced fuel requirements for growing crops. Add in the fact that the fuel would now be grown and the case for Bio fuels is strong.

[4dsc]

3. Bull shit!!

Modern tilling methods along with more efficient tractors.

SO what if "modern" tilling methods are more effiecient they are still using OIL based products!! I guess you missed the bigger picture the author is making here..

[yourout]

6. You missed my point....

I grew up on a farm and my family still farms so I know a little about it. Were does it say we have to use OIL based products in the future? Biofuels grown from whatever source be it Biodiesel grown from alge or soybeans can be used instead of Dino fuels.

The other part of the equation is depending on the extraction method the byproducts from Biofuels have value as feedstock which is needed anyway.

[jpak]

34. If we used biofuels to run farm machinery

and low-input no-till or organic farming methods to produce corn and soybeans (or switchgrass, etc),

(think Amish here)

and solar thermal systems to dry crops,

and solar thermal/biomass or biogas from manure to *locally* process/distill ethanol or biodiesel,

biofuels would become sustainable and require little input from fossil fuels.

(on edit: wind and solar generated electrons will become the next cash crop in the Farm Belt, some of which could be used to generate hydrogen to produce ammonia fertilizer - when required).

As US natural gas supplies are depleted, these changes in US agriculture will happen anyway...biofuels or no biofuels.

Does that mean we can continue to drive biofuel-powered Hummers 10 mph down the freeway on daily 100+ mile commutes - forever???

Nope...

Just as Peak Gas will transform US agriculture, Peak oil will catastrophically transform US transportation structure and infrastructure.

In the nasty Post-Petroleum future, biofuels and electric transport will fill their respective niches and will become important to our economy than renewable naysayers could ever imagine.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

7. What about the power needed for irrigation?

how do they make nitrogen fertilizer?

How is it applied?

How does it get to where it is needed?

come on, be real.

without all that oil and gas, the yield would not be worth it to make biofuels.

and, with it it still is not

[hankthecrank]

8. Most of the Corn belt doesn't use irrigation

Don't need to apply nitrogen if you rotate with beans

[mzteris]

4. "Ethanol And Biodiesel From Crops Not Worth The Energy

"ITHACA, N.Y. -- Turning plants such as corn, soybeans and sunflowers into fuel uses much more energy than the resulting ethanol or biodiesel generates, according to a new Cornell University and University of California-Berkeley study. "There is just no energy benefit to using plant biomass for liquid fuel," says David Pimentel, professor of ecology and agriculture at Cornell. "These strategies are not sustainable." . . . In terms of energy output compared with energy input for ethanol production, the study found that:

* corn requires 29 percent more fossil energy than the fuel produced;
* switch grass requires 45 percent more fossil energy than the fuel produced; and
* wood biomass requires 57 percent more fossil energy than the fuel produced.

In terms of energy output compared with the energy input for biodiesel production, the study found that:

* soybean plants requires 27 percent more fossil energy than the fuel produced, and
* sunflower plants requires 118 percent more fossil energy than the fuel produced.

. . .In assessing inputs, the researchers considered such factors as the energy used in producing the crop (including production of pesticides and fertilizer, running farm machinery and irrigating, grinding and transporting the crop) and in fermenting/distilling the ethanol from the water mix. Although additional costs are incurred, such as federal and state subsidies that are passed on to consumers and the costs associated with environmental pollution or degradation, these figures were not included in the analysis.

"The United State desperately needs a liquid fuel replacement for oil in the near future," says Pimentel, "but producing ethanol or biodiesel from plant biomass is going down the wrong road, because you use more energy to produce these fuels than you get out from the combustion of these products."

-MORE- (and links to many more articles about this topic)

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/07/0507052318...

[leftupnorth]

11. I call BS

It's from pimentel

[Dogmudgeon]

19. It's easy to call BS when you ignore the man's work

"I call BS".

What a craven and narrow-caliber judgment. A one-liner, really.

David Pimentel has been unfairly demonized in this forum. He's an agriculturalist, and he understands ag issues quite well, even if he's gotten one or two of the ethanol details wrong and pissed us, the intellectual elite, off.

He was also the first scientist to raise the issue -- while we were fantasizing that if energy wasn't petrochemical or nuclear, by golly, it would be free! Most first reports have inaccuracies. At least the guy raised the issue and made a testable scientific case. And that makes him a purveyor of "BS"?

You may be familiar with some of the side issues -- how much water modern agriculture takes, the tremendous loss of soil nutrients, the increasing demand for petrochemical soil amendation, etc. All of that has been been learned because of the Abominable Doctor Pimentel and his minions of demons who have ruffled our feathers in the past couple years.

The guy's a hero. If you really want to be educated about these issues, please get some background on Dr. Pimentel, his colleagues, and his 40-year body of scientific work.

--p!

[leftupnorth]

20. Yes, yes

poor "Dr." Pimentel. All the energy blance crap is just that - crap. it's an analytical toy put forth by pimentel and others to confuse people. the energy balance misnomer is just the beginning, i'm sure pimentel is aware that he is spreading misleading information, and continues to do so.

The fact is, there are no perfect solutions to these problems we face, but we certainly do not need doomsayers and "experts" like pimentel to perpetuate irrelevant information.

[NNadir]

21. Really? Everyone who spreads misleading information is...

...aware of it?

That is a surprise.

Who knew?

[hankthecrank]

24. Green Who!

Yeah who knew?

[lapfog_1]

5. they are using the wrong crops to make the feedstocks

for biofuel. Corn is one of the least efficient.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodiesel

look at the table... corn isn't even a contender. Oil palm is the best traditional crop, but we don't have places that we can grow it, algae is by far the best, and we have lots of places we can grow it, with minimal external energy. In fact, to make it grow really good, all you need is a source of CO2, like the smokestacks of your local natural gas fired electrical plant.

[NNadir]

9. I think algae based biodiesel is a promising technology.

It is one that certainly deserves considerable exploration, particularly where it uses water outflows from sewage plants. It seemes to me that this should ameliorate to some extent certain problems with eutrophication of water supplies.

However, so far as I am aware, there is not one commercial algae based biodiesel plant anywhere on earth. I would imagine that commercialization will be too slow to make a real impact in the time frame needed.

[jpak]

35. Anyone that has tried to culture "algae" in the lab

knows it's very difficult to maintain mono-specific cultures on a bench top scale.

These methods require sterile technique, lots of nutrients in the right proportions and specific temperature and light regimes to maintain exponential growth.

Trying to scale all that up to industrial levels will be daunting and expensive to say the least.

Producing biogas from sewage and using nutrient-laden discharge water to produce non-food energy crops would be a better approach...

[leftupnorth]

12. Ding, Ding , Ding!

there you go, no myopia, no doom and gloom, just good old problem solving, and algae will take time, but not as ling as you might think.

[leftupnorth]

10. Yep THE SKY IS FALLING!!!

I'm sick of all this myopic BS about petroleum based fertilizers, added runoff, blah, blah, FUCKING BLAH!

Bioenergy IS going to be the future of transportation fuels, for at LEAST the next 25 years. And guess what? There are people working day and night on the problem of fossil fuel based fertilizers. We will solve that problem too, probably with people like you poo-pooing it all the way. The biofuels industry, unlike the political process, is capable of identifying problems, engineering solutions, and implementing those solutions. For example, there is a company based in Canada that is working on a process that converts DDGS from ethanol plants to large amounts of biogas, it is estimated that their pilot plant will be the first energy independent biofuels facility in the world. When the DDGS is processed into biogas, what is left over is high quality crude natural fertilizer. This is but one small example of innovation and a strong desire to get off petroleum based agriculture and biofuels. Do problems still exist? Sure. But what you fail to realize while preaching your doom and gloom, is that there are intelligent, inventive people working their butts off everyday to bring America closer to being free of middle eastern oil.

You also seem to demonstrate a lack of understanding when it comes to crop rotation and nitrogen replacement, and nitrogen fixing plants like alfalfa.

You are allowed to argue against biofuels, but do so with a better understanding of farming practices and an understanding that what you are posting today may be irrelevant tomorrow.

The perfect is the enemy of the good...

[Odin2005]

13. Some people just lack imagination.

They have convinced themselved that technology can't help us and we're all doomed so it's no use to use our imagination to find solutions.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

14. I am not sure of whom you speak, I agree

that biofuel is a wonderful POTENTIAL, but not if we are going to keep going like we are.

[leftupnorth]

15. there is the strawman

"...not if we are going to keep going like we are."

i think everyone involved realizes that we can't just continue to turn petroleum into biodiesel and ethanol and expect it to be sustainable. That is why there are people working on finding "above ground" solutions to fossil fuel problems. Fossil fuels will serve as a "jump start" to the biofuels industry, and beyond that it will HAVE to be bio-based.

[Odin2005]

16. Bingo, we shouldn't fall for the "it must be perfect" nonsense

I post on a Peak Oil board and the doomer types seem to think we are doomed unless the new technology is perfect, the nonsense gets old.

[leftupnorth]

22. I can almost guarantee that some of those doomsayers

are netvocates, as are probably some of the posters on this board. Either that they own way too much Exxon stock.

www.netvocates.com

[Dead_Parrot]

27. I'll happily keep my helmet'o'doom for now...

Not because there are no replacements (there are lots), or because we aren't smart enough to solve the problems (we are), but just because we've left it till the last minute and aren't throwing enough resources at the problem. Of the 750,000,000-odd cars on the road today, roughly fuck-all will burn anything but gasoline...

Needless to say, I hope to be proved wrong. :)

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

17. Yeah, Does ADM believe this? Does the US Government

I have seen no evidence of that.

[leftupnorth]

23. Believe what? That future energy supplies will have to be

Bio based? It doesn't matter if they believe it or not, it's a fact.

I subscribe to a few trade publications in the Agricultural engineering and biofuels industry, and i have attended conferences with speakers like David Morris, Dr. Bruce Dale(MSU), and Dr. Chris Schilling(SVSU). Every publication and speaker agrees that the reliance on natural gas, coal and oil to produce biofuels MUST be solved. Everyone also agrees that there is a lot of wasted energy that could be capitalized on by this industy, through ideas like co-locating ethanol plants, biodiesel plants, seed/corn mills, natural fertilizer manufacturers, animal feed manufacturers, and even feedlots and dairies all at the same site, minimizing transportation of products and allowing the biorefinery to maximize revenue through diverse income streams and utilization of every waste product.

Here's a short list of just ethanol producers considering conversion from fossil fuels to biogas:

Chippewa Valley Ethanol - switching from natural gas/propane to biomass gasification
Central Minnesota Ethanol - switching from natural gas to wood waste gasification
Commonwealth Agri-Energy - considering switching to corn stover, wheat straw, wood, or "anything with one year payback or less, as long as it's not more than $1 million" (GM Mick Henderson)

also check this thread about the first energy independent biofuels facility in the world:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x56389

There is reason to hope. Wasn't it Thomas Edison who said "Necessity is the mother of all invention."?

[4dsc]

28. Someone's in deep denial about PO

I just love it when someone has to use the term "doom and gloom' in a feable attempt to describe their own possition about Peak oil.. I believe Kunsler puts it best when he stated "the idea that when you wish upon a star your dreams come true. This is largely a product of the technological achievements of the last century, which were themselves a product of cheap energy: namely, things like our trip to the moon, combined with the effects of advertising, Hollywood and pop culture.

That is exactly what we have here when we read that biofuels and bioenergy will save the day!! BULL FUCKING SHIT!! Now while we cannot predict the future, in 20 years when the world is producing about HALF the oil we are now, bioshit is not going to allow us to continue on our own selfish ways and this economy and the world economy will look alot different and I guess its not going to be business as usual!!

Doom and gloom or a real case of reality!!

[NNadir]

29. I need to point out that Kunstler is a journalist, not a scientist.

I'm suspicious of biofuel over optimism, but I'm equally suspicious of Kunstleresque apocalyptic fantasies as well.

I've read Kunstler's book. He makes some valid points, but mainly his orientation is about selling books. He's at best a second or third hand source. Like most journalists, he is notable for what he misses as well as for what he sees.

I have not seen one Kunstler peak oil fantasy that includes its adherents killing themselves because the end is here. Kunstler himself notes at the end of The Long Emergency that he is personally doing nothing although he notes with some smug self assurance that he lives in the best part of the world for a peak oil emergency, upstate New York. How satisfying! How useful! Kunstlerism is basically fatalism but again, without the suicides of its adherents, it is basically a hypocritical fatalism.

As a liberal, I believe in effort, not dogma and not soothsaying.

The real problem with oil is not that it is irreplaceable, but that its unrestricted use has allowed for the population to climb beyond what can be sustained without industrial energy. However, changes in the use of industrial energy have proceeded many times in history, most recently when oil replaced coal. The problem is not one of resource depletion. It is one of taking realistic action. The most important action human beings can take is controlling their own population, hopefully by ethical means. This will require some unpopular actions, included delayed retirement for all people now living, as the population demographics include an aging population. I am prepared to work until I die, if it makes future generations possible.

[4dsc]

31. The problem is not one of resource depletion???

The problem is OIL DEPLETION and nothing else. I hope you misspoke when you printed that or the denial problem is bigger than I thought with you..

And inasmuch as Kunstler is a jounalist first, his analogy and Jiminy Cricket syndrome hits the mark with most people that are in deep denial about a future with LESS OIL!! Alot less oil!!

And inasmuch as you'll work to make future generations possible, future generations will live in a world with LESS OIL!! And its not a future I imagine as one that's as pleasent as the one we have now, with an ABUNDENCE of resources!!

[NNadir]

32. I certainly hope that you have a problem with me.

I certainly have a problem with you.

I think the reason I have a problem with what you are saying, is that I am a scientist.

Since I work in a science that is about the properties of matter, I have a routine familiarity with how one can manipulate matter in myriad ways, via access to energy. I am not concerned that there is too little energy. I think we have enough to last almost forever.

This is why I think Kunstler and his adherents are probably smoking something in the Rolling Stone offices. (I wonder if they were smoking something as well when they thought of Britteny Spears as a cultural icon - but that's another matter.)

I think the panic squad is only slightly less ridiculous than the solar biofuels squad. The main difference is this: The solar/biofuels/renewables squad insists that nothing can be done unless its solar/biofuels/renewables, forms of energy that have some potential, but clearly no where near enough. Thus the solar/biofuels/renewables squad favors only partial action or insufficient action.

The peak oil/"we're out of everything" merely says that all action is impossible so we'll just cry about it and tell everyone how the party's over.

I really want to participate with neither of these silly groups. What I want is a rational look at the resources at hand, a sober analysis of the options, and a choice to proceed with the best options.

You sometimes offer me blather "begging the question" comments like this: "So you want to spew the world with dangerous nuclear waste?"

This is ridiculous since the alternative, according to you peak oilers, is that everyone should just fold up and die right now because you can't have your oil. So even while you worry about so called "dangerous nuclear waste," you argue that we're all going to die anyway. How weak is that?

I don't want your oil. I don't care about it. My argument is that we need to get rid of it and the sooner we do it the better off we'll be. You are unable to identify even one compound from oil that cannot be synthesized or replaced without access to it.

Of course, I'm not drooling all over myself in the offices of Rolling Stone Magazine. Instead I'm looking at it from a technical point of view. I know what can be done, and what the risks of doing nothing (in service to the panic squad) or doing too little (in service to the renewable squad.) Because I want to maximize the probability that what can be done will be done, I am routinely dismissive of both your side and the biofuels side.

I note that the renewables only squad are to be slightly preferred to you, since at least they believe in doing something.

Let's close with some pictures of Britney Spears:

http://framer.barewalls.com/frames/bw/40/40101,40202/16/19.20/preview/m3rs877p.jpg

http://framer.barewalls.com/frames/bw/40/40101,40202/11/13.2/closeup/m3rs883-884c.jpg

http://framer.barewalls.com/frames/bw/40/40101,40202/11/13.2/closeup/m3rs841c.jpg

[leftupnorth]

30. I have no fucking "position" on Peak Oil

Jesus fucking christ dude, we all know the fucking oil's gonna run out soon, some of us will cower in the corner and cry, like you, and some of us will make a concerted effort to save your whiny ass.
I'd rather perish trying to find a solution than die crying about all the oil being gone.

get off it-for fuck's sake!

[iconoclastNYC]

18. Key phrase:

"As they are produced today"

If we produced oil the same way we did in 1920 oil would be 120bbl.

[melnjones]

25. ...ok, please don't flame me!

I want to join in this conversation, but please realize as I do this that I'm quite aware of my lack of knowledge on the subject, so if you respond to me, please do so gently! I'm extremely interested in the development and use of alternative energy sources and am trying to educate myself on them, but ya just can't learn everything at once.

That being said, some thoughts and questions. First...isn't growing soybeans better on the soil than growing corn? I think I read that it is, so correct me if I'm wrong. Also, seems to me that the fact that biodiesel can be made from recycled used vegetable oil would make it a lot more practical as a fuel source than ethanol. Seeing as how diesel cars seem to get better mileage anyway, why are we not seeing a trend toward diesel hybrid cars?

I feel like all the arguing in the world won't get us anywhere on the issue until individual people are ready to make a personal committment to reducing dependence on non-renewables...however that may be defined. I'm seriously considering building my own car in the next couple years. We have the technology to make incredibly fuel-efficient vehicles, but they aren't being made. Is it going to take people building their own freaking cars to get this changed? I've been looking at buying some plans, so please let me know what you think of cars like this http://www.rqriley.com/t-car.html. Between being young, naive, idealistic, and female, sometimes my technology ideas aren't the most practical. At the same time, I see no reason why I couldn't learn to follow plans and build a car with a little help. Is the car at that link too good to be true?

Some other concerns I have...How will the expanded use of biofuels affect the world food supply? Will we be forced to rely on foreign sources of biofuel (thinking Brazil, for example) to meet our demand, and if so, what if those areas of the world destabilize in the future? Are we setting ourselves up to be in the same mess we're in now, only with corn instead of oil?

Our culture seems to be one that demands change, demands it right now, and demands that all the hard work be done by someone else at no cost to us. We have a crisis on our hands, one that requires drastic change from everyone. Especially everyone in our country! I have to keep reminding myself that the place where I can put in place the most change is in my own everyday life and my own home. If I'm not willing to make DRASTIC changes here I can't expect anyone else to do so either. In that sense, the future health of our planet rests solely on my shoulders. If only we had real leadership in the White House, maybe we could get more people to think this way.

Please give me your thoughts! Just give them nicely:hi:

edit for spelling, and to say that I've never heard of the algae thing...how cool is that!

[hankthecrank]

26. Low Sulfur Diesel just started June 1

No one nows how that will work on old diesels. Small gen sets with gas engines have a hard time getting much less than 1/2 gallon an hour when at low loads. Honda makes one with a inverter so engine can turn lower speed don't know how much fuel per hour that one gets. Small diesel gen sets will get down to 1/4 to 1/8 gallon per hour. Diesel start to shine when worked hard. I've seen diesel get where they will burn 1/2 of what a gas engines under heavy load. Gen sets should not work harder than about 80% load.

Crops depend on how level the soil is and how much rain it gets. You get allot more insects and weeds if you don't rotate crops. Corn than beans. Beans fix nitrogen into the soil. If it slopes too much or is too sandy than you shouldn't grow row crops. Rape seed supposed to increase wheat yields when rotated. Soil is covered than and doesn't wash or blow away as much. Rape seed is supposed to give most oil per acre. In some places they don't get enough rain to grow ever year. Then they let soil rest one year. Some places are only good for growing grass. Than you use it for cattle. Some places only get rain in the fall or just in the spring. I've seen them use sorghum than or winter wheat.

Nice plans for the car, but I would use the diesel instead of the Briggs. Car should have a roll cage like stock car if sides are not very strong. Need that crush zone. Diesel engines cost more to buy but last longer and use less energy. I like water cooled ones because they last longer but they cost more than air cooled ones.

Corn used to make ethanol can than used for high protein feed. Beans still have to more done to them but they call the beans with oil out cakes. I think if you throw in manure into methane digester than you can get away with no outside energy sources. If they can get so they can use the whole plant for ethanol it will very good. Went past golf course in 105 degree heat spraying water to keep grass alive. Don't see where we value crop land or water. As they say they don't make any more of it. Also homes going up on nice black soil makes me sad.

Your right in crisis on our hands. I don't think people will change till it hits them right in the face. We need to make stuff to last also. If more of the stuff comes from China it will only be made in one cycle and then you couldn't buy parts for said stuff if you wanted too. Every one needs to carry a 5 gallon pail of water once, you soon learn how heavy and how much less you need to use. If energy didn't come out of sockets so easy maybe we would use less.

Sorry if I'm unclear or didn't cover what you wanted. This place has land mines all over just watch your step and wear your hard hat. I also find that ignore button works for some of the land mines. Also if any thing if I said is in error some one will only be to happy to point it out. Me I always put my foot in my mouth doesn't help with land mines

[4dsc]

33. Good insight..

I like when you stated "I don't think people will change till it hits them right in the face. We need to make stuff to last also.