Burgeoning use of assault weapons through "straw" purchases.

[zanne]

This is just what I was saying in a GD post. You say that if a gun is illegally obtained and someone is injured or murdered, somehow it just doesn't count, because the person wasn't "law-abiding" in the first place. A straw argument for straw purchases. Read on.
Police, gun-control advocates and federal reports say a major way that assault weapons get into the wrong hands is through straw purchases, in which someone buys a gun legally and sells it to someone who shouldn't have it, like ex-convicts or minors. In Florida, felony convictions, some domestic violence convictions and mental-health conditions prohibit gun ownership.


http://www.miamiherald.com/top_stories/story/378546.html

[pipoman]

1. It may just be me, but I'm not follwing your point here

A straw purchase is illegal. In order to complete a straw purchase the buyer has to complete a federal form which makes it perfectly clear that if they are buying the arm for anyone other than themselves they are committing a crime, then they are required to sign under penalty of perjury that they are buying the arm for themselves. I believe there simply aren't enough prosecutions of straw purchasers. IMO anytime a crime is committed with a firearm legally acquired by a person who knows the person who isn't qualified to own the firearm there should be an investigation. If the original buyer is convicted of straw purchase that person should be tried as a co-defendant in the crime committed. I support the legislation which requires the reporting of the theft of a firearm so the person can't say, "oh that gun was stolen a year ago" after a crime is committed by their cousin who used the weapon.

[krispos42]

2. Interesting article

The writing was done well. It's the police chief that's disseminating incorrect information.

Point 1: This is why gun-owners want to see straw purchasers thrown in jail. This is also why many, such as myself, want the National Instant Check System (NICS), the federal background check that is required for federal firearms dealers to perform, to be available or even required for citizen-to-citizen purchases. Yet arrests for this seem to be few and far between. In fact, I would even support a law limiting firearm purchases to 12 in a 52-week period without a waiver from the BATFE. But people knowledgeable about firearms, such as gun owners, don't really seem to get asked what their opinion is. They get told by politicians and non-gun-owners what is needed to become law to fight crime.

Point 2: It is not surprising at all that military-styled weapons are filtering down to the criminals, any more that it is surprising that criminals are using camera cell phones and video iPods. It filters down. And, as the statistics show, handguns are still the preferred firearm of the criminal element and will continue to be so. When Smith & Wesson designed and introduced a new handgun cartridge, the .40 S&W, it filtered down to the criminal element, joining the .25, 9mm, .45, .38, and .357 as one of the common calibers being used in crime.

Point 3: Despite owning plenty of these firearms, overall crime and homicide rates are stable. Those that would commit crimes continue to do so, those that don't, don't. The kind of weapon a person owns does not make them more or less likely to commit a crime. In come cases a criminal chooses to use a military-styled weapon in place of a handgun. Same crime, different gun. Just like nobody suggests that the .40 S&W is responsible for more crime and death. The composition of the pie shifts, the size of the pie does not.


Point 4: Despite the fear-mongering, domestic-violence murders are at historic lows:




Here's a breakdown by relationship and weapon.




Police officers killed, by handguns, other guns (rifles and shotguns) and other weapons.




Despite the public being well-armed with "killing machines", as Miami Police Chief Timoney said in the article, the super-vast majority of all homicides are single-victim.



And the UK, which after the Dunblane and Hungerford massacres decided that non-sporting firearms had no place in a "civilized" society, has a homicide rate that looks like this:

[zanne]

3. Well, when I posted about straw purchasers yesteday in GD.....

You guys were claiming that I was ignorant and didn't know what I was talking about. (Y'know, your usual argument). You claimed that straw purchasers either didn't happen or the number was so low as to be insignificant. You can always come up with a pro-gun argument. You just pull it out of your ass. Anything to keep your best buddies, your teddy bears, your guns.

[SteveM]

4. Did you take a look at that push-poll survey the Herald ran?

The comments above about prosecution (or the lack thereof) of straw purchasers is important, Zanne. If these prosecutions were made, then you might have some real data as to their quantity. Don't you think that the straw purchase "issue" was really just a launching point for another diatribe against the mythical "assault weapon?" That's what the article centered on, and that's what this persistent campaign coming out of South Florida has been about: assault weapon fear. (Please note that Timoney & others have been featured on national T.V. broadcasts, the Herald, and some news outfit out of the Lauderdale area for some time. The last I looked, the Miami area's "gun crime" rates were not out of line with the national average.)

BTW, does anyone reading this have the details on this Lexus car affair and the chief? It kept coming up in the Herald's email responses.

[benEzra]

12. Here's a couple of articles pertaining to some of the controversies...

http://cbs4.com/local/timoney.miami.police.2.405183.html

http://www.miaminewtimes.com/2007-09-20/news/john-timoney-america-s-worst-cop/

...including an apparent no-confidence vote by the local police union.

Here's some footage from the protests that the article criticizes Timoney over (note that the officers joking about shooting that woman were apparently from the county, not the city, though).

http://youtube.com/watch?v=G63FEamhpA0

He's quite the controversial figure, it seems.

[zanne]

5. Even with the evidence right in front of you...

You deny. Sounds like what this current administration does. You do realize that gun nuts have incredilbe parallels with the Bushies, don't you? I think you're all too far gone in your gun culture, cult-like beliefs. You can't even look the truth in the face. Good luck in the future.

[SecularNATION]

7. hateful bile from zanne

zanne, you can continue to paint gun owners as closet Republicans till hell freezes over. Won't make it true. Gun hating zealots like you don't own the Democratic Party, even though it's been infected enough by your ilk, to cause it to lose multiple elections. BTW, why DO you have such a big bug up your ass about firearms? Have you ever in your life even handled one? What specific firearms do you want to ban? All of them, or just the ones YOU don't happen to like? Also, how old are you and did you move to New Hampshire from Massachusetts?

[Tejas]

14. Yeah, what on earth was all of that?

[krispos42]

8. No, that's not quite what was being said.

IIRC, the discussion was about "banning" guns, which would disarm the honest while having no impact on the criminal. Yeah, the straw purchases would go away because there would be no more gun stores, but the pool of illegal guns in the hands of criminals would remain relatively stable while the pool of guns in the hands of non-criminals would drop sharply as guns were turned in to the police to be destroyed. Criminals, after all, are not going to turn their guns in.

The objective must be to disarm the criminals while not disarming the honest. Otherwise you are just making the problem worse.

[Tejas]

13. Without even clicking the link....

by reading your first sentence, I'll bet the article has something to do with a "Chief Timoney".

Is that correct?

[aikoaiko]

6. I missed your other GD thread -- do you have a link?

Maybe that will help me understand your point.

[krispos42]

9. I believe it's this one in LBN

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3139753#3140456

[gorfle]

10. What do you want done, Zanne?

Zanne, straw purchases are illegal, and the criminals in the article were caught doing it and sentenced to 2 years in prison.

[jmg257]

11. And your point is? Make straw purchases illegal? OK. Make using guns to commit crimes illegal?

OK. Make committing crimes illegal? OK. We ALL agree 100%.

You do agree it happens anyway, despite all these existing laws. And WHO says it doesn't count? Count for what?...there are alot of criminals who get & use guns illegally - despite 1000s of laws in place to prevent it? Well, NO kidding! THEY ARE CRIMINALS!...by their very definition they break the law!

You REALLY aren't convincing me that I should give up my right to arms for defense - in fact just the opposite.


"If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878


From the article: "The men pleaded guilty to conspiracy to deal in firearms without a license and were sentenced last summer to about two years in prison."

What do you think - is that enough of a penalty to serve as a deterent?

Did they happen to find out who was buying the guns? If S. Florida is anything like New Haven, they probaly found results similiar to these:


"In the Summer of 1999, the New Haven Gun Project implemented several new strategies to attack violent gun crime in the City of New Haven.
The selection of strategies relied in significant part on extensive research into the specific nature and dimensions of incidents of murder, assault with a firearm, armed robbery, the unlawful firing of firearms and unlawful firearm possession. ...

Some of the data presented included:
*A large percentage of offenders and victims were 15-21 years of age.
*Most offenders had serious criminal histories.
*One fifth of offenders had been arrested for a prior gun offense, and three-fifths had a history of drug charges.
*Over one third of the offenders were on probation at the time of the new gun-related offense.
*Approximately one-third of offenders or victims associated with murders and armed assaults were members of neighborhood "groups" believed to be involved in other illegal activities."


Seems maybe guns aren't the problem.