Crime statistics for concealed carry permit holders?

[gorfle]

Does anyone know where I can get statistics on the number of crimes committed by concealed carry permit holders?

[MediaBabe]

1. That info may not be easy to find.

In most states concealed carry permits are issued at the county level. That means when permits are revoked it is at the county level. Unless the state requires this information be forwarded to the state there won't be a single site database to search. The CDC keeps data on gun crimes but doesn't have this category separated.

[gorfle]

2. I was afraid of that.

My gut tells me that CCW permit holders are probably among the most law-abiding in the country. I'd like to find some data to support this.

[DonP]

3. Your're right about that

I can't find the article right now, but about three weeks ago there was a report from Texas or Flroida (?) I believe that indicated that CC permit holders were something like 3 to 5 tims LESS likely to be involve in any criminal activity that the average citizen of the same age.

Sorry I can't find the source now.

[benEzra]

17. Actually, *most* states issue and revoke them at the state level.

States with "discretionary issue" (i.e., allowing local sheriffs or county boards to set arbitrary standards to keep guns out of the wrong (color) hands, or reward contributions to the sheriff's political campaign) are now in the minority; most states have a state department of licensing, even if your local CLEO handles the paperwork.

I do know that at least Florida and Texas keep data on revocations and the cause, and IIRC both showed fewer violent felonies among CHL holders than even police officers in the aggregate, but I don't have a link.

[old mark]

32. I live in PA, where the law is "Shall Issue", meaning issuing the license

is mandated if there is no legal disqualification. The county in which I live had over 25 thousand issued firearm carry licenses several years ago, and the figure I recall for firearms related crime from that group was 1/10 of 1%. I am sorry I don't have real figures or current figures.

I will post a question on the Pennsylvania Firearms Owners Association site and try to get a better answer.

mark

[old mark]

46. Some information on revoked carry licenses...

This information was found on the PFOA site, supplied by the Pennsylvania State Police: information is for Berks County, PA
# of NEW License To Carry Firearms (LTCF) issued in 2006 - 3017
# of LTCF revoked in 2006 - 167 ( From among ALL license holders)

Note: Number issued is NEW APPLICATIONS - they are good for 4 years before they must be renewed.

I have no information on total listings for the state or the county at this time.

Link is www.pfoa.org/

Site is Pennsylvania Firearms Owners Association. It is obviously pro gun, so don't be shocked if you are anti and decide to visit.

Thank you, have a great day.

mark

[pipoman]

4. I found this a few weeks ago

http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp

* Florida adopted a right-to-carry law in 1987. At the time the law was passed, critics predicted increases in violence. The founder of the National Organization of Women, Betty Friedan stated:

"lethal violence, even in self defense, only engenders more violence." (13)

* When the law went into effect, the Dade County Police began a program to record all arrest and non arrest incidents involving concealed carry licensees. Between September of 1987 and August of 1992, Dade County recorded 4 crimes committed by licensees with firearms. None of these crimes resulted in an injury. The record keeping program was abandoned in 1992 because there were not enough incidents to justify tracking them. (13)(15)

* 221,443 concealed carry licenses were issued in Florida between October of 1987 and April of 1994. During that time, Florida recorded 18 crimes committed by licensees with firearms. (15)

* As of 1998, nationwide, there has been 1 recorded incident in which a permit holder shot someone following a traffic accident. The permit holder was not charged, as the grand jury ruled the shooting was in self defense. (7)

* As of 1998, no permit holder has ever shot a police officer. There have been several cases in which a permit holder has protected an officer's life. (7)

[gorfle]

6. Wow, great information, thanks!

Thanks, pipoman! That goes a long way to dispelling all the "wild west shootout" scenarios the doomsayers predicted.

[iverglas]

30. Yes! 10-yr-old statistics! Who could want for anything more?!

:crazy:

[spin]

36. Up to date report:...

Concealed Weapon / Firearm Summary Report
October 1, 1987 - June 30, 2008

http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/stats/cw_monthly.html

Check the chart for the Licenses Revoked section.

[tburnsten]

43. ten years old but still good

The statistics are just as relevant now as they were ten years ago. Gorfle was asking for data on concealed carry permit holders crime rates, and that is a valuable piece of information, even if it only describes the early years of CC acceptance.

[spin]

13. Merely proves that honest citizens with guns are no problem.(nt)

[TWiley]

98. The problem lies in how to sort them out.

The good citizens from the bad ones. Refusing gun ownership to convicted felons makes sense, but it is pretty difficult to predict which will become felons ahead of time. I suspect that problem will never be solved.

[Howzit]

53. "lethal violence, even in self defense, only engenders more violence."

Not by the criminal that started it!

[paulsby]

80. yes yes yes

i have a coworker who is alive today because a permitted person ran up and shot a person who was wrestling with her (after she stopped him for committing armed robbery) and who had gotten her gun out of its holster (note that statsitically speaking , when a cop is disarmed by a person, 80%+ of the time, the gun will be fired at them).

i deal with people in an area that has a VERY high percentage of people who have CCW's in a state that is "shall issue".

i can state from n=thousands that i have never arrested any CCW person for any crime involving their firearm.

i occasionally arrest a person with a CCW who has his gun on him. i arrested a person for a misdemeanor warrant about 5 years ago that was carrying his firearm.

but the offense was not firearms related.

if there is any group that is incredibly law abiding ime it is CCW holders.

another coworker of mine was shot and killed. THREE citizens at the scene i interviewed had guns and permits. unfortunately none were able to save his life, but based on EVIDENCE (not feelings) i am happy to know there are lawfully armed citizenry out there.

[clovis29]

5. I am not sure they are all that law-abiding

I think it makes them feel super-macho with a license to kill.

[gorfle]

7. Check out post #4 (n/t)

.

[pipoman]

8. Any links? Stats? News reports? I didn't think so. n/t

[jmg257]

9. You would be wrong then wouldn't you. Sorry to shatter your illusions with the truth.

"One study found that in Florida CCW holders were 300 times less likely than the general population to commit a crime. The firearm crime rate among license holders, annually averaging only several crimes per 100,000 licensees, is a fraction of the rate for the state as a whole. Between the beginning of Florida’s permitting program and the end of 2005, the state issued 1,104,468 concealed weapons permits. During that time period; 3,643 permits were revoked—a rate of about .3 percent. Of those revocations; 2,941 involved a crime after licensure; 157 of those crimes involved the use of a firearm. "

"A Texas study found that CCW holders in that state were "5.7 times less likely to commit a violent crime, and 14 times less likely to commit a non-violent offense."

"North Carolina reports only 0.2% of their 263,102 holders had their license revoked in the 10 years since they have adopted the law."

Georgia: "studies by numerous independent researchers and state agencies have found that concealed handgun license holders are five times less likely than non-license holders to commit violent crimes"

in 2004, the state of Utah had a permit revocation rate of about .4 percent. The rate for revocations due to
firearm offenses was .02 percent..

between 1986 and 2003, only .8 percent of Kentucky's 71,770 licenses were revoked for any reason

in 2001, Indiana revoked about .2 percent of its outstanding concealed weapon permits

since the inception of its concealed weapons program in 1995, Virginia has seen a revocation rate of just .2
percent.

between October of 1994 and February of 1996, the state of Wyoming issued 2,273 permits and revoked
four, a revocation rate of just under .2 percent.

between 1996, when its shall-issue law passed, and September of 1999, the state of Oklahoma issued 30,406
permits and revoked only 62–a rate of .2 percent.


The truth shouldn't come as a surprise either.
This is what you typically know about a person who has a CCW in many states:
(specifically Tennessee in the example)

They've never been convicted of "any felony offense punishable for a term exceeding one (1) year".
They've never been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence.
They've never been convicted of the offense of stalking.
They were not under indictment at the time they applied for a CCW.
They were not the subject of an order of protection at the time they applied for a CCW.
They haven't had a DUI in the past five years or two or more DUIs in the past 10 years
They haven't been under treatment for or hospitalized for addiction to drugs or alcohol in the past 10 years.
They've never been adjudicated as mentally defective.
They've never been discharged from the military under dishonorable conditions ("dishonorable discharge, bad conduct discharge or other than honorable discharge Chapter 1340-2-5-.02 (5)").
They've never renounced their U.S. citizenship.
They've never received social security disability benefits "by reason of alcohol dependence, drug dependence or mental disability."


Besides, most CCW holders know exactly what the law is, and the responsibility of carrying and the serious implications of using a CCW inappropriately, so many holders tend to AVOID more situations that may be inclined to lead to trouble.

[JeanGrey]

41. AW SHOOT (LOL) Please don't bother us with facts!

It makes these silly arguments so much harder...................

[old mark]

48. Great post.

Most CCW holders are among the more responsible citizens, and tha large majority of police officers feel safer when they know a person they come in contact with has a CCW.

The anti's propaganda is just total lies.


mark

[tburnsten]

50. This has been true for me.

The one time I have been stopped since I got my carry permit I handed the permit over with my license and let him know I was carrying. He said "ok" as if I had just told him what I wanted for breakfast, didn't care even a little bit and I think he was surprised I even bothered to tell him. Didn't say a word about it, when he was done with my IDs he handed them both back, never asked me to disarm or anything else. Not the slightest bit of nervousness.

[jeepnstein]

67. That's pretty much how I handle it.

The last thing I want is for a citizen to be fumbling around with their concealed firearm. It's safer in the holster. One guy was really worried about it one time and I made him raise his right hand and repeat "I promise not to shoot anyone" and then we got a good laugh out of it. Concealed Carry holder are just not you criminal types. That doesn't mean I let down my guard, I just prefer that they keep their weapon holstered and their hands clear of it.

Did you get off with a warning on that stop? Just wondering...

[paulsby]

81. yes

i don't just FEEL safer, i know i am LESS likely, ceteris paribus, to be assaulted by a CCW'er (or killed) than a non-ccw'er

unlike so many anti-gunner arguments, it;'s not feelings, it's knowledge.

them's the facts.

[Statistical]

74. Damn you and your facts too. (Thanks for finding that. Bookmarking) n/t

[east texas lib]

10. Well, then...

Why don't you apply for one and find out?

[Tejas]

14. LOL!

Mind if I use that?

:)

[east texas lib]

20. Not at all!

Please do!:hi:

[bossy22]

11. its not a license to kill

[nuclearfishin]

12. Even you

have a license kill as long as it is in self defense or the defense of others (depending on which state you live in). A CHL/CCW has nothing to do with it.

Or do you honestly believe that no one ever killed anyone else without a gun?

Left to my own devices, if I needed to kill you to keep you from killing me or my loved ones with my bare hands, I'd do it.

I've carried for almost 12 years and haven't killed anyone. I've had one situation where I drew my pistol against two assailants, one was armed with a knife, and didn't fire a shot.

[SteveM]

23. Aren't roughly half of U.S. homicides non-gun? (nt)

[ManiacJoe]

24. If I am reading the 2006 (latest available) stats right,

guns make up about 68% of the murders.
Due to guns being almost all of the weapons in the cases of justified homicide, guns make up about 73% of all homicides (murder and justified).

guns used in 42 percent of the robbery offenses
guns used in 22 percent of the aggravated assaults

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2006/offenses/violent_crime/index.html

[jmg257]

25. What's hard to figure is they (FBI) do not include gun use in rape cases. I

figured it out once and in a typical year .12% of the population may use a gun to commit a crime, which means 98.88% won't. I think those who use a rifle was like .002 or something.(hence the stupidness of AWBs)

About 15% of all violent crimes involve the use of guns (1.4 Million total vs like 200K w/guns), but exact numbers are tough cause of the rape reporting thing.


2005 data:
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/data/table_20.html
Total murders............................14,860.....100.00%
Handguns..................................7,543......50.76%
Other weapons (non firearm, non edged)....1,954......13.15%
Edged weapons.............................1,914......12.88%
Firearms (type unknown)...................1,598......10.75%
Hands, fists, feet, etc.....................892.......6.00%
Shotguns....................................517.......3.48%
Rifles......................................442.......2.97%

2006 data:
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2006/data/table_20.html
Total murders............................14,990.....100.00%
Handguns..................................7,795......52.00%
Other weapons (non firearm, non edged)....2,158......14.40%
Edged weapons.............................1,822......12.15%
Firearms (type unknown)...................1,465.......9.77%
Hands, fists, feet, etc.....................833.......5.56%
Shotguns....................................481.......3.21%
Rifles......................................436.......2.91%


And compared to other causes of death (2004):

Age under 1 : Firearm accident: 1
Ages 1-4: Drowning: 430
----------Homicide/gun: 36
----------Struck: 15
----------Firearm accident: 14
Ages 5-9: Suffocation: 45
----------Homicide/Gun: 45
----------Struck: 21
----------Firearm Accident: 13
Ages 10-14: Homicide/Gun: 139
------------Poisoning: 47
------------Suicde/Gun: 36
------------Firearm accident 35
Ages 15-19: Homicde/Gun: 1578
-------------Falling: 87
------------ Firearm accident 80

Total accidental death by firearm age 0-19: 143
Total accidental death ALL ages: 649 (.6% of all deaths)


And for our DC friends, who applaud the "effectiveness" of gun bans, rated for violent crimes:

DC - #1 Murder Rate, Maryland #2 - both get an A in Brady book.
Violent Crime - DC #1; Maryland #7 (A-); Delaware #9 (B+)
Robbery DC #1, Maryland #2, Illinois #7 (A+), Cali #8 (B+)
Aggravated Assault: DC #1; Delaware #10 Maryland #11
Property Crime: Hawaii #5, DC #6

[iverglas]

70. maybe because

What's hard to figure is they (FBI) do not include gun use in rape cases.

it's statistically insignificant. Much as that would undermine the gun militant agenda, I know, and I'm sorry about that.

Let's look at your numbers, and add in a hypothetical.

Ages 5-9: Suffocation: 45
----------Homicide/Gun: 45
----------Polio: 45
----------Struck: 21
----------Firearm Accident: 13

... Polio ... nah ... statistically irrelevant ... far more children die of other stuff. Let's not worry about polio.

I just wonder about your totals there. You didn't want to look at the non-accidental, homicide deaths at all?


I think those who use a rifle was like .002 or something.(hence the stupidness of AWBs)

Yeah. The drug trade executives with the AK-47ish things in their car trunks and closets ... they're not using those things at all. Their ability to carry on their criminal activities is not facilitated by their possession of those or other things of the firearm sort, and even dependent on their possession of such things. Nope, those things aren't used to commit crimes, not at all. Kind of a waste of money there, eh? Stupid drug dealers.


typo fixed

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

75. Yeah those drug trade executives are gonna obey an AWB if it is passed.

I'm sure they'll come and hand them in along with all of their drugs.

David

[Recursion]

16. Do the roughly one-quarter of CCW holders who are women feel "macho"?

or is it "macha"?

[spin]

38. The ones I've known...

seemed like any other woman. In many cases, with a little training, they could out shoot most men. Most obtained a CCW permit because the areas they worked in were dangerous.

Women dislike walking into a dark parking lot at night in a bad area. With a permit they can have their gun in their purse and have their hand on it. Some purses are designed just for concealed carry but tend to be expensive. A well made regular purse is not as good but will work if necessary. At extremely close range a woman can point her purse at the assailant and shoot through it.

Purses for concealed carry:
http://magills.com/index/42_Concealment+Purses/

Discussion "Should I carry in a purse"
http://www.corneredcat.com/Holster/purse.aspx

Other carry choices for a woman:
http://www.corneredcat.com/Holster/howhide.aspx

[WWFZD]

60. Oh no.,

you did it now, Iverglas will be along soon.

"Other carry choices for a woman:
http://www.corneredcat.com/Holster/howhide.aspx"

The name Kim DuToit comes to mind. I don't know who she is but I believe she's involved with corneredcat in somesuch manner.

And Iverglas, I sincerely hope that all is going as well as possible on the family cancer situation. Keep us posted on the latest news. I had to go in for a checkup yesterday and have a colonoscopy scheduled for January. I dread it but it hasta be done.

[AtheistCrusader]

93. Kim Du Toit is a 'he', not a 'she'.

And a sexist piece of shit.

[AtheistCrusader]

94. Ugh, thread necromancy.

Damn you people.

[paulsby]

82. the great equalizer

women are on average physically weaker than men

women are on average more likely to suffer a serious assault by a man than commit one on a man

gun control laws preferentially disadvantage the weaker amongst us, and on average women are more often the prey than the predator and more often than not will be at a significant strength/physical disadvantage vis a vis their male attacker.

gina carano, this does not apply to you!

i am a competitive strength athlete and workout with literally some of the strongest women in the country (women who squat over 2.5 times bw for instance). i am not saying women can't be strong

but they have a strength disadvantage in that they start with a strength deficit and have less optimal hormones to increase strength - on average.

[JeanGrey]

42. WE FEEL SAFER. That's all.

[benEzra]

18. Hardly...

A CHL is not a "license to kill." It is a license to carry a firearm for lawful purposes; it does not exempt you from use-of-force laws, MSM fearmongering to the contrary. Nor is it about "feeling super-macho" (if it were, you'd have a hard time explaining all those women who have obtained CHL's, including my wife, and the woman who stopped the Colorado church shooter).

FWIW, to obtain a CHL, I had to pass a Federal background check, a state background check, a mental-health records check, had my fingerprints run by the FBI (clean), took a class on self-defense law using a state-issued curriculum, passed a written test on same administered by the sheriff's office, and demonstrated competence with a handgun on a range (live fire). It cost a lot of money, a lot of time off work, and a lot of red tape that only the hyper-law-abiding would bother with.

I'm 37 and have never even had a speeding ticket, for pete's sake, nor have I ever participated in so much as a fistfight outside of martial arts classes. I think your stereotype of CHL holders as Rambo wannabes would be hilarious if it weren't so sad.

[Tejas]

34. Who are "they" ?

Please clarify who you speak of.

[AtheistCrusader]

39. My wife and I both carry.

I don't really consider her 'macho'.

Speaking only for myself, I know that if I am ever involved in ANY kind of altercation, the mere fact that I have a concealed carry permit, and a firearm on my person, means I will likely be held to a higher standard than your average joe-on-the-street during any investigation, grand jury, trial, or media coverage that results.

The State can determine that I owned my pistols.
My fingerprints are on file with the State, and the FBI.
State police know immediately if they run my plates or drivers license, that I have a permit for concealed carry.

As a gun owner, and a concealed carry advocate, I can say with confidence, you don't know me. You don't understand my motivations. I doubt you are even interested in learning more. Since I take responsibility for my safety, and the safety of people around me, you make some pretty derogatory assumptions about me. That's just bigotry of another stripe. Brave new century I guess. Pick a small segment of society and shit all over them, free and clear, as long as it's not based on skin color or sexual orientation.

Pardon me for fulfilling what I see as my civic and constitutional duty.

[DU Man]

55. You are obviously mis informed.

Most would do anything possible to avoid any altercation. Shooting someone is THE MOST expensive thing you could ever do.

[iverglas]

62. I see it's time for another stroll down memory lane

Gone ... and would have been forgotten ...

[Mad_Cow_Disease]

71. Wait... What?

I'm not sure what you're getting at about the memory lane part... but did that guy just get banned for telling someone they were misinformed and stating it was expensive to shoot somebody? It must've been another post I'm guessing.

[Furyataurus]

92. Its funny

how the "un-armed" people are more confrontational than the "armed" people???? lol.

[mvccd1000]

15. Michigan State Police Statistics Here

Go to this page:
http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,1607,7-123-1591_3503_4654---,00.html

There you can download the CCW reports for every year since Michigan became a "shall-issue" state in 2001.

[slackmaster]

19. Texas tracks conviction rates for permit holders

They're a couple of years behind, but the figures clearly show CCW holders are far less likely to be convicted of crimes as are other members of the general public.

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/chl/convrates.htm

[MicaelS]

37. Damn...

Even I didn't think it was THAT low.

Total Convictions in Texas - 61,539

Convictions of CHL Holders - 140

CHL Holder Percentage of Total Convictions - 0.2275%

[HiDemGunOwner]

21. Any additional info on CCW carriers and crime/unintentional shooting victims vs. police, etc.

Good topic...Here in Hawaii, our legislators will be hearing (again) a bill to create a "shall issue" statue. Our AG is against it (again) and made a statement that issuing CCWs would increase the likelihood of a civilian unintentionally shooting an innocent bystander. I have already downloaded the info some of you have provided in regards to Texas and Michigan's CCW stats, but does anyone else have links to things like police accuracy in shootings versus CCWs accuracy, unintentional shooting victims by CCW holders, etc.? Thanks!

[ManiacJoe]

22. Those stats will be hard to find, if they even exist.

In many states, unintentional victims would fall under the felony murder laws where the attacker(s) would be charged with all deaths related to the crime, including the ones caused by the defenders.

[HiDemGunOwner]

26. I figured it would be difficult

But that's why I asked the experts here....Thanks!

[Novus Collectus]

27. Civillian/police comparison

I forget where I saw this and I am not sure it is backed up by a study, but since police officers are required to confront criminals and will generally engage until the criminal is caught or dead, more shots are fired by them increasing the chance of hitting a bystander. The comparisons to permit holders is not direct because most permit holders avoid confrontation with criminals usually only shooting if attacked and they do not shoot to apprehend or prevent escape, the permit holder usually shoots to stop the attack so as to escape alive.

There is also probably a difference in the distance involved in the shooting encounters. The police may have more incidents where they have to fire at a criminal at longer distances increasing the chance for a miss, whereas the permit holder will generally only use theirs when being attacked and that may often happen at close quarters.

[Heidi]

28. Welcome to DU!

I'd like to see the stats on the number of firearm owners who've never once fired their weapons. We have two handguns in our household, both bought by my husband about 20 years ago. Neither has ever been fired, and I doubt that they ever will be. First, we'd have to unlock the separate lockboxes where they're kept, and second, my husband would have to forage through a downstairs closest to find the ammunition. :hi:

[Novus Collectus]

29. Thank you

YOu may never see stats as such, but some compilation can be made about how many fired their guns defensively or for sport.
According to studies between ninety some thousand times (NCVS)and 2.5 million times (a survey by Gary Kleck and other researchers) guns are used defensively a year by legal gun owners. According to tghe the National Crime Victimization Survey guns were fired 17% of the time by people defending themselves with a gun, but IIRC in the Kleck survey about 25% (only 16% fired the shot directly at the attacker) of the respondents said they fired the gun in the defensive situation (the majority of Defensive Gun Uses stop the attack by showing them the gun or by pulling it out and not firing it).

We can also compare to the number involved in sport and how many own firearms for self defense alone. I will have to find it, but another survey conducted by or commissioned by the Department of Justice said that just under half said they owned a gun primarily for self defense, but since most gun owners that own a handgun also own a long gun, and since most long gun owners are more likely to use them for some sport, and since many handgun owners which own a handgun will have practiced with it at least once, there are probably only small fraction of gun owners which never fired there weapons for either sport, practice or self defense.
There is no way to really know how many people that own a firearm for primarily self defense practice with it or train with it, but we do know there are at least 18 million people and as many as 40 million that participate in some shooting sport at least once in 2005. Between ten and twelve million participated in a shooting sport using a handgun.

Now having said that, I have three guns which I bought in my collection which I have never fired. Two of them were bought with the intent to never be fired, and the third broke before I could. However, I have fired all of my other guns.

[tburnsten]

44. Probably too many

I bought a shotgun on Independance Day, since I didn't have one yet and it is kind of a requirement for any complete collection. I haven't had time to shoot it yet, and it is driving me nuts. I can't imagine owning a gun for twenty years, let alone two, and not firing them once. He/you are keeping up on their maintenance at least right? Many guns, especially tighter fitted ones, require a break-in period of several hundred rounds before they can be considered reliable, and it is important to keep them protected from rust with a light coat of oil, inside and out. It would be awful to crack the lockboxes open planning to shoot, sell, or give the pistols and have them be rusted together.

[TPaine7]

31. I provided some info here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=177070&mesg_id=177171

To get at the sources, you will have to follow the link.

[HiDemGunOwner]

52. Thanks! n/t

[old mark]

33. Informally, I can tell you from experience.

I have been shooting since age 10 - I learned in the Cub Scouts. I have owned several hundred guns, mostly handguns and miliraty surplus rifles, over the last 45 years. I own 14 handguns at the present time.
I have enjoyed shooting for many years.
My understanding is that not many police officers are "gun nuts", and many shoot only when necessary to qualify as their depertment requires.

Many people who shoot "for fun" are much more skilled in shooting and general gun use and gun handling than are a large percentage of police officers.

The anti-gun cultists are too bust re-hashing their store of false information to be bothered with "facts". They are in large numbers totally ignorant of any aspect of firearms, and have no desire to learn.

They believe they are right, or they don't and just want to be in control. I find many of them are quite closed minded, fascistic individuals, and I believe many of them are afraid of their own uncontrolable rage and hatred. They are sick individuals, and cannot be taken seriously.

mark

[WWFZD]

61. HiDemGunOwner

Here's the report for the latest, 2007, Ohio CCW data from our, unfortunately discredited, former AG Marc Dann. I liked this dude too, strong Democrat supporter of RKBA. Nobody's perfect I guess and absolute power and all that.

http://www.ag.state.oh.us/le/prevention/concealcarry/docs/07_cc_annual_rpt.pdf

[paulsby]

85. hawaii is frigging ridiculous

in re gun laws. i know. i was a cop there back in the day.

you could be a cop for 20 yrs in hawaii, with a perfect record, retire and you cannot even then get a permit.

and as a non-politically connected civilian, you might as well hope to see a rainless year in hilo before you are going to see a gun permit with your name on it.

what is lingle's position?

[spin]

35. Florida CCW statistics...

Florida Concealed Carry Licensees Do Not Commit Crimes

Pop. - 13,277,000 Floridians Who Own Guns (Percent) All -- 62.7% Male -- 68.8% Female -- 57.3% Floridians Who Own Guns (Number): 8,325,000 Permits issued: 204,108 Permits Revoked Due To Crime: 17 (0.008%)

The latest report from the Florida Department of State, covering a 6-year, 4-month period from 10/01/87 (start-up date) through 02/28/94, shows that 204,108 CCW permits have been issued -- 69% new permits; 31% permit renewals. Only one-quarter of 1% of permit applications have been rejected due to an applicant's criminal history; two-tenths of 1% have been rejected due to an "incomplete application." One hundred eighty-seven (0.1%) permits have been revoked because the permittee committed some kind of crime, though not necessarily a gun-related or violent crime, after permit issuance. After receiving permits, only 17 (0.008%) individuals committed crimes (not necessarily violent) in which firearms were present, though not necessarily used. By contrast, in 1992 there were about 46,000 gun-related violent crimes (assaults, robberies, homicides and rapes) in Florida, based upon FBI Uniform Crime Reports supplementary reports and reported crime totals.http://www.kc3.com/CCDW_Stats/fla_model.htm

Official Florida site: Summary Report October 1, 1987 - June 30, 2008:
http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/stats/cw_monthly.html

[RonC]

45. Guns and Concealed Carry

I am thoroughly heartened by the cited data presented in this thread!
Why is it that, when confronted with data that suggests that CCW holders engage in less crime than the general public and that carrying a handgun can deter crime, those emotionally attached to their belief in gun control suddenly get quiet?

My wife was adamantly anti-gun. Although I take my guns to the range and sometimes bring my grown son, she had steadfastly chosen to hold to her anti-gun stance even when inundated with data showing all her pre-conceived notions to be incorrect. She even said that here response to guns is emotional and not based on reason or logic. However, after accepting that I have a CCW and sometimes carry, and knowing that I am an unaggressive, calm and mild individual, she has softened her stance. She now, at least, will listen when I present her with data contrary to her 'beliefs.' Her blinders are now off and she won't say "don't confuse the issue with facts."

There are some 200 million guns out there in the USA. A local reporter went downtown, made some contacts, and had the option to buy, illegally, any handgun he wanted. Bad guys can do the same. Will they follow any law that prohibits handgun ownership or use? Not a chance. Those anti-gun laws only affect law-abiding people like me. The goons get guns and we can't. Does that make sense?

I am less macho when I carry. My tendency to avoid confrontation is heightened by my knowledge of gun use and gun ownership. I know the consequences for the goon, my family and me. I know that, even in a justified shooting when my family, friends or I am threatened with bodily injury or death, the financial and emotional costs will be great. That just make me more judicious in confrontational situations.

I am not a one issue voter, so I will vote for Obama because he will work toward my goals of peace, healthy environment, democratic and Democratic ideals even if he is anti-gun. However, if Obama and his handlers don't want to sabotage his own candidacy and lose the independents, they should support gun ownership and reject any inkling of anti-gun attitudes. The neocons will not believe that he is pro-gun, but he doesn't have their vote regardless. However, many independents will turn his way and many gun-owning progressives like me will back him wholeheartedly.

Ron

[spin]

49. Welcome to DU...

I believe that life experience helps determine your pro or anti-gun stance. Many anti-gun people live in violent cities where few people legally own weapons and have little experience with honest gun owners. They may well have witnessed gun violence or have had personal knowledge of people who were victims.

I also noticed that when I first started carrying a firearm concealed, I lost the macho attitude. "Packing heat" is a very serious decision. I go out of my way to avoid confrontation. The last thing I would ever want to do is to use the weapon I have hidden on my person. I believe I'm more polite and considerate now that I have a permit. Perhaps there is more truth than most realize in the statement "An armed society is a polite society". Most of the people I know who carry concealed have expressed the same view. Perhaps that's why you rarely read of legally carried weapons being used.

It's probably impossible but might be worth the effort to take your wife to the range. Just invite her to watch and meet the other shooters. If she isn't totally turned off by the experience, ask if she would like to try a few shots. Don't start off with a powerful handgun. If you don't own one, buy or borrow a .22 caliber weapon like the Ruger target .22. A fairly heavy .38 special revolver is another choice because the recoil is manageable for a new shooter. (If you do buy a firearm for her to try, the Ruger might be the best choice. If she doesn't enjoy shooting you can still use it as an excellent inexpensive firearm to improve your shooting. The weapon is extremely accurate and the .22 caliber ammo will not break your bank account.

http://www.ruger.com/Firearms/FAFamily?type=Pistol&subtype=Rimfire%20Autoloading&famlst=54

Many women find shooting a pleasurable sport once they try it. Most of the women I've taken to the range turned out to be very good shooters mainly because they listen and learn without the preconceived notions that men have acquired from watching too many action films. If you're lucky your wife may discover she likes shooting. It could turn into a hobby for both of you. Of course, the skill she learns may save her life or yours some day.

[JeanGrey]

40. Anyone know where I can get statistics on lives saved by

guns?

[aspergris]

47. The problem is

Those are nearly impossible to calculate.

Because you don't know what would have (you can speculate) if the gun defense didn't happen...


This is true of most deterrent stuff.

It is probably much higher than the anti-gunners are willing to admit though :)

[JeanGrey]

51. My life was saved twice by a gun so yes I can.

[DU Man]

54. I am in Omaha..

I CCW myself. There has not been ONE incident of a CCW involved shooting in the last two years.

[iverglas]

63. to absent friends!

[jkmoyle]

56. Crime Statistics

Homefacts

I haven't found any crime stats linking the two, but I did come across this crime statistics and other public info site.

Crime Reports is also a great resource.

[Wickerman]

57. Home facts seems to have no relevancy to the Gun Forum

Please don't use the boards to pump your business.

[spin]

58. Florida has a monthly report on concealed weapons...

and you can find it here:

http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/stats/cw_monthly.html

Between October 1, 1987 - October 31, 2008, 1,408,907 licenses were issued. 4,431 licenses were revoked for a variety of reasons. 518 licenses were revoked for crime prior to licensure, 3,716 for crime after licensure. 518 licenses were reinstated.

Perhaps the most important statistic is that only 166 licenses were revoked because a firearm was utilized improperly. 166 / 1 408 907 = 0.000117821829.

[gorfle]

59. Thanks, Spin!

Great data. Just reaffirms that CCW permit holders are extraordinarily law-abiding.

[Scout]

64. you'll NEVER get data on crimes COMMITTED by any group...

what you could get would be data on people arrested and/or convicted of crime.

[SteveM]

65. Could you explain in detail what you are driving at? Thanks (nt)

[Scout]

66. you don't know someone has committed a crime unless they are caught, right?

i may have committed many crimes in my life, but if i haven't been caught, how would one know?

seems pretty easy to understand.

[spin]

68. The eleventh commandment..."Don't get caught". (n/t)

[iverglas]

69. duh, eh?

But of course. Everyone, every single one, who has not been caught committing a crime, and prosecuted for it, is one o' them "law-abiding gun owners", or "honest citizens", as some here are bizarrely fond of terming them. (Strikes me that's a hard standard to live up to -- to be not only law-abiding, but honest too, and of course to be a citizen to boot.)

All of those things stashed away in the car trunks and closets of the many drug trade executives who seem so fond of them, they all belong to "law-abiding gun owners" and "honest citizens", 'cause the people who've got 'em have never been convicted of a crime.

Until they commit one. Like the guy in Toronto who had met the relatively stringent requirements for owning a handgun for sporting purposes, and decided one night to shove it in his pants and take it out to a local nightclub, where, after being evicted, he took a shot at the bouncer and struck and killed a passerby on the sidewalk.

If he hadn't been an "honest citizen" and "law-abiding gun owner", he would not have been in lawful possession of that handgun, which he was ... right up until the point he shoved it down his pants and walked out his door. Then he was in unlawful possession of it. And then he killed someone with it.

Even then, had he not decided to actually try to shoot somebody with it, he could have successfully passed for a law-abiding gun owner and honest citizen for the rest of his life. Even though he wasn't.

Such a conundrum, this life business. Time, and how things change over it, and people do things today they didn't do yesterday and had never done before; what a concept, eh?

[Mad_Cow_Disease]

72. Very true

Very true, however I think the argument lies in the belief of large sample sizes. Given a large and ramdom enough population sample, you can assume the number of incidents involving a select group apply to the majority of the population.

Playing to be my own devil's advocate, I think a "Percentage of Crimes Solved" statistic would do good here. Say 3 in 100 people with a CCW permit have been found ot be involved in criminal activity. If the police force only solves 50% of all crimes, then we can assume there are at least 3 more "unknown" criminals with a CCW permit. So while crime data shows 3% are involved in crime, realisticly it would be about 6%. (These numbers are hypothetical and made up for illustrative purposes.)

So ultimately, while I do believe the Florida Statistics are a good trend indicator, they can never be concretely accurate because the police do not decisively solve 100% of crime cases. I would be happy if the FBI statisics took that a step further and linked the CCW crime stats and paired them with solved-crime stats.

[Taitertots]

78. Is that the best you got

Your counter to the fact that very few CPL holders are committing crimes is that they just haven't yet or haven't been caught.

It makes sense to substitute facts with hyperbole.

[Indy Lurker]

91. Does this logic applies to cars and drivers?

Is every driver a DUI waiting to happen?

[paulsby]

84. unless

somebody is claiming that CCW holders are MASTER CRIMINALS, there is no logical reason to assume their "get away with it rate" is any higher or lower than non-ccw holders.

nobody denies that some crimes are never solved. heck, some crimes are solved and the wrong person gets convicted!

but the fact is that OF those convicted/charged with crimes, CCW holders are disproportionately absent.

that is the fact.

[Name removed]

73. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TwoCylinder]

76. Stats for CCP holders

There was a shooting of a police officer by a CCP holder reported in Twinsburg, OH. Not sure of the date of occurance.

[spin]

77. The news story you refer to is located at:

http://www.wkyc.com/news/state/ohio/news_article.aspx?storyid=93022&catid=23 The incident occurred on July 13. 2008.

CUYAHOGA FALLS -- A judge in Cuyahoga Falls has set bond at $5 million for the man charged in the shooting death of Twinsburg police officer Joshua Miktarian early Sunday morning.

Ashford Thompson, 23, of Twinsburg, is charged with aggravated murder.

According to a published report on cleveland.com Thompson's defense attorney Larry Zukerman claims his client acted in self-defense. Zukerman had asked for a bond of $50,000.

Police say Miktarian had pulled over Thompson for loud music and suspicion of driving under the influence early Sunday morning.

On Monday, the Cuyahoga County Coroner said Miktarian died after being shot four times in the head. His death has been ruled a homicide.

Twinsburg's police chief says Miktarian's gun was still holstered when he was found.

*************snip**************

Thompson reportedly has a Concealed Carry permit but police say it's not clear if the weapon he had the permit for was the one used in the shooting.

In the comments sections to the article was this statement:

Besides sure he had a CCW licence but on the news they said 1 month earlier it was suspended.

I was unable to verify this statement but in another news story about this incident I found...

The indictment included: two counts of aggravated murder; two counts of escape; two counts of resisting arrest; three counts of tampering with evidence; and one count of carrying a concealed weapon.underlining mine
http://www.wkyc.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=94653

But while people who have concealed carry permits rarely commit crimes with their weapons, they still are not angels.

Welcome to DU.

[paulsby]

83. yes, but

at least in this case if he was charged with 'carrying a concealed weapon' that at least suggests he was not at that time permitted.

but regardless, of course people with CCW's do commit crimes, to include murder.

we have just established that they commit them at a much lower rate than the pop at large.

[spin]

86. If you examine the Florida statistics...

you may find the further proof.

Every month Florida publishes a web page that shows a lot of data about permit holders. It's located at http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/stats/cw_monthly.html

As you look at the page you will find that between October 1, 1987 - January 31, 2009

Florida issued 1,445,522 concealed carry permits.

Currently there are 547,276 valid licenses.

And a total of 166 licenses have been revoked because of a crime that involved a firearm.

The statistics show Florida permit holders are not perfect, but commit far less crime than most other groups of people.

Permit holders are not angels, but they are an unusually law-abiding collection of citizens. In Florida, for example, permit holders are about 300 times less likely to perpetrate a gun crime than Floridians without permits.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3647/is_199607/ai_n8737084/pg_3

[paulsby]

88. this jibes with my personal experience

where i work there is a very high %age of people with CCW's.

very few of the people i arrest have a CCW (it comes up when you run their name through DOL/WACIC), and i have never arrested a CCW holder for a weapons offense in my life.

[spin]

79. A list of crimes committed by concealed permit holders...

can be found at:

http://www.bradycenter.org/xshare/pdf/facts/2008-ccw-crimes-misdeeds.pdf

Some of the reports are indeed serious and some are less serious.

Form your own opinions.

[Furyataurus]

87. Wow

The Brady Campaign sure knows how to exploit someone's emotions rather than use facts........

[old mark]

89. Right -the brady gand can really be counted on for

accurate information on gun owners.

mark

[Furyataurus]

90. I found this

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/chl/ConvictionRatesReport2005.pdf


it's 2005, but that's all I could find for the "wild, wild west" for TX.


Just a little more than 1/4%!!!!! Boy those Texas CHL holders sure are violent!!!!!! j/k.

[spin]

95. Wow!!! 60,873 total convictions...

only 153 of which were committed by concealed permit holders.

[russ1943]

96. Florida CCW

Records put gun statistics in doubt
By Megan O'Matz and John Maines | South Florida Sun-Sentinel
January 30, 2007
Since 1987, the state says, 158 people have committed crimes with firearms after being licensed to carry concealed weapons.
Gun enthusiasts point to the number when arguing that licensed gun carriers are responsible people who rarely break the law while armed.
But the number is suspect.
State officials can't back it up, and, when asked to identify the shooters, gave the South Florida Sun-Sentinel a list of 48 names. The other names, according to the Division of Licensing, were deleted under a requirement that information on inactive permit holders is to be purged after two years.
Mary Kennedy, a Licensing Division bureau chief, said she could not identify all of the culprits. "I don't even know who they are," she said. Of the number 158, she said, "I can't tell you that it's right." For 10 months, from February through November of last year, the tally did not change. It stood at 157. Only in December did it rise to 158.
By comparison, the Michigan State Police in its most recent annual report on its concealed pistol license program reported that 255 licensees carried pistols in the commission of crimes in one year alone, 2005-06, and 101 brandished or used them.
Nevertheless, the gun lobby continues to ballyhoo Florida's low count.
Last year, when the number was still at 157, the National Rifle Association on its Web site boasted that concealed weapon licensees "are more law-abiding than the rest of the public. Florida's experience is illustrative. ... To date, Florida has issued 1,136,496 permits, and revoked 157 (0.014%) due to gun crimes by permit holders."

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/sfl-gunonefiftyeight30jan30,0,6556153.story

[spin]

97. The Michigan State Police have an extremely detailed report...

on licensed concealed carry.

You can view it at:
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/msp/CPL_Annual_Report_2007-2008_269128_7.pdf

However, Michigan doesn't seem to feel that concealed carry permit holders preset a significant problem.

More Concealed Weapon Permits Has Not Led to More Violence

Six years after new rules made it much easier to get a license to carry concealed weapons, the number of Michiganders legally packing heat has increased more than six-fold.

But dire predictions about increased violence and bloodshed have largely gone unfulfilled, according to law enforcement officials and, to the extent they can be measured, crime statistics.

The incidence of violent crime in Michigan in the six years since the law went into effect has been, on average, below the rate of the previous six years. The overall incidence of death from firearms, including suicide and accidents, also has declined.

More than 155,000 Michiganders -- about one in every 65 -- are now authorized to carry loaded guns as they go about their everyday affairs, according to Michigan State Police records.

About 25,000 people had CCW permits in Michigan before the law changed in 2001.

"I think the general consensus out there from law enforcement is that things were not as bad as we expected," said Woodhaven Police Chief Michael Martin, cochair of the legislative committee for the Michigan Association of Chiefs of Police. "There are problems with gun violence. But ... I think we can breathe a sigh of relief that what we anticipated didn't happen."
http://blogpublic.lib.msu.edu/index.php/2008/01/06/more_concealed_weapon_permits_has_not_le?blog=5