Mother Jones: NRA agent infiltrated gun control movement

[friendly_iconoclast]

http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2008/07/mary-mcfate-sapone-gun-lobby-nra-spy.html

There's Something About Mary: Unmasking a Gun Lobby Mole

Mary McFate was a prominent gun control activist. Mary Lou Sapone was a freelance spy with an NRA connection. They are the same person. A Mother Jones investigation.

James Ridgeway, Daniel Schulman, and David Corn
July 30, 2008

This is the story of two Marys. Both are in their early 60s, heavyset, with curly reddish hair. But for years they have worked on opposite ends of the same issues. Mary McFate is an advocate of environmental causes and a prominent activist within the gun control movement. For more than a decade, she volunteered for various gun violence prevention organizations, serving on the boards of anti-gun outfits, helping state groups coordinate their activities, lobbying in Washington for gun control legislation, and regularly attending strategy and organizing meetings.

Mary Lou Sapone, by contrast, is a self-described "research consultant," who for decades has covertly infiltrated citizens groups for private security firms hired by corporations that are targeted by activist campaigns. For some time, Sapone also worked for the National Rifle Association.

But these two Marys share a lot in common—a Mother Jones investigation has found that McFate and Sapone are, in fact, the same person. And this discovery has caused the leaders of gun violence prevention organizations to conclude that for years they have been penetrated—at the highest levels—by the NRA or other pro-gun parties. "It raises the question," says Paul Helmke, the president of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, "of what did she find out and what did they want her to find out."

This raises some questions:

1. Are some of the "gun control advocates" here on DU really provocateurs, or just encouraged to be
extreme in their posted views?

2. How come nobody did the same thing in reverse, aside from a few trips to gun shows to get
article material?

3. Is/was she the only one?

4. If she's not, are any of the working for Adrian Fenty or Richie Daley?

[krispos42]

1. Who says they haven't?

How many people, on one side or the other, have become disenfranchised and dropped out or switched? Probably a lot. Miss Mary here seems to be a professional about it, though.


As to the first question, I've wondered about that myself. Some of the really vehement anti-gun people that I though for sure would surface after the Heller decision haven't been heard from in ages.


BTW, this was posted in GD a couple of days ago.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3702535

[iverglas]

6. just a theory

As to the first question, I've wondered about that myself. Some of the really vehement anti-gun people that I though for sure would surface after the Heller decision haven't been heard from in ages.

Of course, you know as well as I do that at least half of the "really vehement anti-gun people" who have attended in this venue over the years have been trolls, and no more "anti-gun" than Ted Nugent. (Or any more "anti-gun" than genuine advocates of more stringent firearms control, of course.)

I can speak only for myself, but I found both Heller and the response to it here to be both somniferously boring and stupendously predictable. Couldn't think of anything at all that needed saying about either.

[krispos42]

7. I had noticed you were pretty quiet after the decision was issued

And I see my guesses for that were pretty close to being on the mark!


The really vehement anti-gun people are still here, though, they just aren't Gungeon regulars. But let a gun thread pop up in GD, and man, they're all over it!

[iverglas]

8. well, those weren't the *only* reasons

as anyone following the tergiversations of my, er, private life will recall. ;)

Just one of those happy coincidences that I had something to divert me from the boredom of Heller!

[aspergris]

2. how do u know they haven't

"2. How come nobody did the same thing in reverse, aside from a few trips to gun shows to get
article material?"

We only know about the ones we know about.

:)

Seriously though, these people are acting covertly. There may be many . Who knows?

[friendly_iconoclast]

3. Maybe they have...

...but there is a certain asymmetry here. Anybody could sham being say, a committed vegan. To infiltrate
a meatpacker you'll need to be seen tucking into a steak or chicken breast regularly or people will
become suspicious.

Same with gun groups. If you go shooting and don't feel the irresistable impulse to beat women and
oppress racial minorities that some have claimed gun ownership is part of, you might begin to wonder
what you've been fearing.

BTW, did you notice there are STILL people demonizing gun owners on that GD thread? Looks like
Mary the Spy really earned her pay!

[aspergris]

9. of course

fwiw, i think it's good tactics to infiltrate groups with opposing views.

There is also nothing illegal (for instance) for a person with (for example) pro-choice viewpoint to infiltrate an operation rescue meeting, or a person with anti-gun rights viewpoints to infiltrate NRA meetings.

[friendly_iconoclast]

4. Perhaps the NRA got to the ACLU as well

After all, if the ACLU interprets the Second Amendment as an individual right, and starts defending
people over same, they will inevitably draw money and power *away* from the NRA. See the ACLU blog:

http://blog.aclu.org/2008/07/01/heller-decision-and-the-second-amendment

and discussion here at DU:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x179036

[iverglas]

5. by the numbers

1. Are some of the "gun control advocates" here on DU really provocateurs, or just encouraged to be extreme in their posted views?

Many, many of them have been. I had a nice pic I posted regularly for a time ... a sheep in wolf's clothing ... Generally, their abject stupidity was evident on their first post. Nonetheless, most of them got appropriately stern replies from gunheads in the vicinity.

2. How come nobody did the same thing in reverse, aside from a few trips to gun shows to get article material?

Gosh. I wonder whether it's because the other side isn't composed largely of scum.

3. Is/was she the only one?

Yeah, interesting question.

4. If she's not, are any of the working for Adrian Fenty or Richie Daley?

Perhaps you could explain that one.

[friendly_iconoclast]

10. Your replies to #2-4

2. What, nobody would be willing to purchase a .22 target pistol and become proficient
enough with it to allay suspicions? It would be gobsmackingly stupid not to do this if you thought
the cause was right. After all, being a serial slaughterer of paper targets, soda cans and water bottles
is hardly the same as jacklighting deer and firing upon your fellow motorists.

After all, it's not like guns give off IR (Invisible Rightwing) rays that cause conservatism, no?

WWJBD (What Would Jeremy Bentham Do?) Maybe they are at work gathering intel as we speak.

3. I doubt it. Some are probably volunteers. I still think it's an open question if the ACLU was
gotten to. After all, if the ACLU embraces the decision in Heller the NRA loses. There
has already been a split between the ACLU and several state CLUs over Heller. I'm
sure this gives much joy to the NRA.


4. If Fenty and DC had been willing to go to a restrictive, NYC type of permit, and give them
to people like Dick Heller, Heller Vs. DC would never have happened.

Instead, they went the Napoleon III route and got their asses handed to them. Guess they figured no loaf was better than 90% of one.

Richie Daley is mostly driven by ego, but who knows what is being whispered in his ear?

[iverglas]

12. uh huh

After all, it's not like guns give off IR (Invisible Rightwing) rays that cause conservatism, no?

Precisely.

So how exactly would becoming proficient with a .22 target pistol gain anyone entrée into the inner sanctum of, oh, the NRA-ILA, or Ohioans for Concealed Carry, or any suchlike outfit?


I still have no clue what you're on about when it comes to Fenty and Daley in relation to the story of the mole.

[friendly_iconoclast]

13. Simple

You could, presumably get some power in the NRA or OfCC by tossing enough money around and
talking the talk, but eventually you would have to schmooze and hang out on the gun range with the people
you would (presumably) obtaining information from. Any political organization has social events for
the higher-ups, no matter their political flavour.

You couldn't infiltrate an animal rights group and eat steak, and you couldn't infiltrate the NRA and
not shoot a gun.

Fenty and Daley: Their courses of action re Heller, et al., are backfiring (no pun intended) so badly it begs the question: Sheer stupidity, or were they encouraged to take this line by an ally who isn't really an ally?

[iverglas]

14. speaking of actual question begging

(and not the fakey kind you're talking about)

You seem to be starting off with the premise that the really really hard thing for anybody wanting to infiltrate, say, the NRA-ILA would be to bring him/herself to learn how to shoot a firearm.

Well, that's *your* premise. And it's just plain silly.

The actual reason that it would be difficult for people from a firearms control advocacy to infiltrate some other group would be, as I said, that they aren't anti-democratic scum.


As for the Fenty and Daley theory, which I think I have now grasped: gimme a break.

[friendly_iconoclast]

15. Hmm, I think I see where you're coming from

Of course anyone could learn how to shoot and *appear* to be an devoted NRA/SAF/OfCC supporter.
That's not what I'm saying.

Saying it would be difficult because hanging out with gunnies Is Just Too Terrible To Contemplate
is ridiculous. Hundreds of OSS agents hung out and made nice with Nazis and collaborators during World War II not because it was pleasant, but because it was neccessary. If you are trying to stop "anti-democratic scum" who you believe are responsible for thousands of deaths, a few sacrifices need to be
made.

As for my theory re Fenty and Daley: One word-COINTELPRO. Just like the Weather Underground were
a godsend to the Nixon White House, so are Fenty and Daley for the NRA. A "Mary the Spy" type
of mole in their inner circles would be a great help for the NRA.

It worked on the animal rights people already, no? And Mary herself was in on that operation.

[jtb33]

11. The anti-gun movement is an NRA invention...

to keep the money flowing in.

Isn't it?

[Major Hogwash]

16. You know what is interesting about all of this?

Nothing.

It's just about as interesting as finding out that your neighbor, who is on the local PTA board, runs around his house half-naked in his skivvies in the evening.
Oh my gawd!

It's just bullshit. This gal took it on her own to "spy" on gun control groups, groups who have publicly espoused gun control for years.
Their agenda was "a huge secret"!!

Some fuckin' spy!

Maybe she can "spy" on the local water board and find out why they aren't releasing more water downriver from the local reservoir this summer.

I'll bet it's because they don't have much water in the reservoir due to the drought!

[friendly_iconoclast]

17. Paul Helmke doesn't share your nonchalance

. "It raises the question," says Paul Helmke, the president of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, "of what did she find out and what did they want her to find out."

from the linked article. Guess he doesn't subscribe to the "It's just a flesh wound!" school of thought.

Any other differences of opinion with Mr. Helmke you'd care to share with us?

[tburnsten]

18. I'm curious about his statement

I wonder what exactly it was that he is so worried about "the NRA" finding out about, anyway? Aren't they a policy advocacy group? If so, then why on earth would ANY of their materials or statements need to be treated as a secret? Unless they are having discussions involving abusing their status as a non-profit (they are non-profit, right?) or outlining new plans of attack that involve outright and blatant lies, what does it matter if someone "spies" on them by reporting what goes on in their meetings? Are they planning on bombing gun manufacturers and shops?

This isn't a story about someone spying on an individual or a business, or the government spying on anyone, it's about the brady bunch getting their knickers in a twist over the idea that someone might actually listen to them. Odd.

[Major Hogwash]

19. It's much ado about nothing.

It really is. If Paul Helmke is so worried about what this nutty lady found out, maybe he should hold open public meetings to discuss exactly what his organization does, sort of like the Sunshine law that forces Congress to act out in the view of the public.

It's no big secret that the Brady campaign has waged a war with people who own guns for more than the last 20 years.
How's that working out for them?
And if their agenda is so secretive that they have to worry about being infiltrated by "spys", then I think that is a bigger problem for Paul Helmke and the Brady campaign than whatever "secret" inside information that nutty lady found out about them.

[DonP]

20. A little charity for Helmke, please?

Be nice guys. It's been a rough decade for Helmke, Sugarman and the entire Brady operation.

First the Million Mom March went bankrupt and had to be absorbed.

Thier Big Pink Bus tour closed after two or three stops.

More states passed "shall issue" concealed carry laws and only 2 states don't allow CCW now.

Their last two Mother's Day rallys had more NRA, SAS and SAF attendees then MMM members.

Their public meetings were actually attended by more pro-gun people than gun control people, much to their video embarassment.

Then they had a big round of staff layoffs last year and their PR team went from 7 people to two.

They begged Fenty not to go forward with the Heller suit and they were ignored.

Then the final blow was the Heller decision. It's damned hard to spin something so clearly against your obvious mission.

I wonder if the Joyce Foundation BoD is re-thinking their funding check for next year yet?

[jody]

21. Don't be surprised if the Joyce Foundation increases funding of anti-gun groups. n/t

[one-eyed fat man]

23. Sugarman found alternate funding..........

Now that Heller regains DC residents their rights, as one of only 6 FFL's in DC, he can do transfers.........

<>

He's had the FFL for at least 15 years and renewed it just last year. (Apparently that "thing" about having a storefront and available to the public is being overlooked the the boys over at The Bureau of All Things Fun & Exciting

[Major Hogwash]

25. The NRA kicked that lady out of their group! Can you believe that crap?!

What a bunch of assholes! She was just trying to help rather than just sitting around on her ass wiping the spit off of her lips like they were.

Geezus, I can't believe those losers.
They should have sponsored a dinner in her name instead!

[benEzra]

22. I've wondered that.

1. Are some of the "gun control advocates" here on DU really provocateurs, or just encouraged to be extreme in their posted views?

I've wondered that, not specifically related to DU (well, a couple of times related to DU), but in general.

Cui bono?

BTW, look how that guy baited Joe Biden into going off on "assault weapons" during the Youtube debate. I suspect he was a repub who knew exactly what he was doing, and that he was hoping one of the first-tier candidates would stick their foot in it instead.

[jody]

24. Biden sponsored S.2237 "Subtitle B--Assault Weapons Ban Renewal Act of 2007" see DU post below.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=182811&mesg_id=182852