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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-08 04:35 PM
Original message
“Locked and loaded on uncertainty” typical reporter ignorant of the difference between assault
weapon and assault rifle. "Locked and loaded on uncertainty"
Faster than a speeding bullet, assault rifles and ammunition are flying off of the racks in Louisiana’s gun shops. It’s a nationwide trend that is shooting across the country since President-elect Barack Obama’s victory last week, as gun enthusiasts are concerned that an Obama administration will ban certain weapons and ammunition.

According to local law enforcement authorities, there are no gun stores in Beauregard Parish currently selling assault rifles; however, many residents travel a few miles north to Leesville’s Star Pawn and Gun store to “zero in” on their weapons of choice. “We have a lot of customers from DeRidder,” said shop owner, Tonya McKee.

* * * * * * * * * * * *

Gun enthusiast Dan Hooker of Leesville participates in competitive shooting. He said that he likes the AR-15 model in the assault rifle category. He said that he has a few of them and would like to continue to buy them with no limitations. “They are compact, easy to use, low on recoil…it’s something everyone in the family can shoot.” He believes it is a “50-50 chance” that assault rifles will be against the law in an Obama administration.

* * * * * * * * * * * *

Many gun owners across the country worry that a Democrat administration and Congress would support a return to the gun ban during the Clinton administration which lasted 10 years. The ban prohibited magazines with more than 10 rounds and certain semi-automatic assault rifles with added features such as lugs for attaching a bayonet.

* * * * * * * * * * * *

Rice, a former NRA member and sportsman, said, “I’m an avid hunter. I’ve already killed a deer this year. If he wants to regulate purchasing AK-47s and other assault rifles, well those weapons aren’t made to hunt.”


For those not familiar with the topic, assault rifles have been regulated since 1934 under the National Firearms Act covered by Title 26 USC CHAPTER 53—MACHINE GUNS, DESTRUCTIVE DEVICES, AND CERTAIN OTHER FIREARMS
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-08 04:43 PM
Response to Original message
1. The Ignorance, Sir, Seems To Be Pretty Deep In The People Purchasing These Things
Just about all the references to 'assault rifles' in that article are quotes from people purchasing various AR-15 and AK-47 models.

It is true that an automatic weapon comes under the 1934 regulation, though of course true 'assault rifles' did not exist at the time it was promulgated.

It is hard to regard these purchases as anything but an exercise in mass hysteria.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-08 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. No one knows whether the writer quoted people correctly and it's still the reporter's responsibility
to insure accurate reporting.

That is unless you endorse papers passing on unsupported assertions and possibly downright lies as is par for the course on internet forums.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-08 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. You Have No Grounds On Which To Assume Dis-Honesty, Sir
And this paragraph, citing local law-enforcement, would seem to indicate she is being honest in the matter:

"According to local law enforcement authorities, there are no gun stores in Beauregard Parish currently selling assault rifles; however, many residents travel a few miles north to Leesville’s Star Pawn and Gun store to 'zero in' on their weapons of choice."

That states, certainly, the fact of the matter, that no weapon meeting the actual definition of an 'assault rifle' is being sold. Of course, current usage can often outstrip strict definitions employed by afficianadoes: if you want real fun, try watching how often reporters, or even narrators in documentaries, distinguish properly between tanks and tank destroyers and assault guns and self-propelled guns. The fact of the matter is that common parlance refers to the semi-auto only versions of modern military issue weapons as 'assault rifles', and the former legal definition seemed to include these, along with most forms of semi-auto rifles, and high capacity magazines. The intent of the law was to limit the number of rounds that could be got off quickly without a pause to reload. You may not like this restriction, for whatever reason, but an argument can be made that there is a state interest in such a restriction, and that it does not limit normal use of the weapon for hunting, or even self defense. In either case, it is very rarely necessary for more than several rounds to be fired, and with a semi-auto weapon, this can be achieved reliably and accurately at rates on the order of one or two seconds between shots.

It remains my view that these purchases are a product of mass hysteria, and that the persons engaged in them are mostly not quite on their mental balance, and hence have little business possessing anything more lethal than a box of toothpicks....
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-08 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. I have grounds if a reporter incorrectly reports anything as happened in this case. n/t
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-08 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. The Reporter, Sir, Has Quoted What People Said
Your quarrel would seem to be with the rather dim types actually buying the weapons....
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derby378 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-08 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Ray Schoenke of the AHSA told me he was misquoted in previous interviews
One interview made him sound like he backed a new ban on semi-automatics when, in fact, he has not, and told me on the phone that he'll oppose such a ban.

I'm afraid jody raises a valid point. Reporters sometimes screw up. If you want to trust, go ahead, but verify.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-08 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. The Term Is Used At Is In Common Parlance, Sir
And clearly as it was being used by most of the purchasers interviewed.

The point of the article is the delusional nature of many of the people making these purchases, and the semantic side-track just that: a side-track. No one really cares, and there is no reason anyone should.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-08 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Please provide a credible source for your assertion "No one really cares". That is if you care
about the truth.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-08 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #12
22. When 'The Truth' Is Used Like That, Sir, It Is Usually Capitalized, To Convey The True Horror Felt
You are arguing against prevailing usage in English, and will not win the argument.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-08 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. Are you unable to provide a credible source? I thought so. n/t
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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-14-08 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #12
39. Me: I don't care.
The argument to keep "assault rifles" to mean only fully-automatic rifles has been lost. The term has been co-opted.

We should not be shirking the "assault rifle" moniker for the semi-automatic rifles that we own. All you're trying to do is hide the true purpose of these kinds of rifles. We should instead be embracing it.

I am not ashamed to own a semi-automatic assault rifle. I own it in case of insurrection or civil chaos.
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raimius Donating Member (201 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-08 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Perhaps to the average citizen it is merely a side-track on terms
...but it is one that could land you in prison for several years if you DID buy an assault rifle.

It is also a semantic term that could lead to the banning of the most popular center-fire rifles in America. So, yes, I do take it seriously.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-08 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #14
21. The Point Of The Matter, Sir, Is That You Cannot Legally Buy A True Assault Rifle
Not without a machine-gun tax stamp, anyway, which it is my impression anyway is a damned difficult thing to acquire.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-08 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. The Point Of The Matter, Sir, Is You Don't Know What You Are Talking About. It Is Legal Under
Title 26, Chapter 53 Of The Federal Code.

It is not a "damned difficult thing to acquire" as you mistakenly assert.

Time consuming yes and there are costs involved but "damned difficult" -- NO!

Why don't you educate yourself before you make statements that are inconsistent with the facts.

That's the same advice I would give the reporter who started off the article with a statement that is wrong. An unforgivable act for a reporter that you seem determined to defend.

I suggest you just accept the truth that the reporter is guilty of sloppy reporting or worse.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-08 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. The Reporter Is Guilty Of Nothing, Sir
You, on the other hand, seem to be hyperventilating, and might benefit from breathing slowly into a paper bag for a few moments, with your head tucked firmly between your knees....
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-08 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. I'm perfectly calm and laughing at your pathetic attempt to defend a reporter guilty of slopping
reporting or worst. :rofl:

You know nothing about assault weapons or assault rifles and I suggest you educate yourself before you enter a discussion on those topics again.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-08 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. By All Means, Sir, Point Out My Ignorance Of Assault Rifles, At Your Liesure
We could all do with a laugh....
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-14-08 08:08 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. Why should I when you've already done a perfect job! Goodbye. n/t
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Scout Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-14-08 08:12 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. now there's a QUALITY post for you!
game, set and match to The Magistrate!

:rofl:
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-14-08 08:59 AM
Response to Reply #31
33. LOL Scout, you defending the Black Knight as Arthur rides away. n/t
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Scout Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-14-08 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #33
34. The Magistrate needs no defense, and that is certainly not what i was doing....
just making an observation about you declaring yourself the winner then leaving!

:rofl:
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-14-08 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #30
35. Oh, That Will Never Do, Sir....
Mere 'argument by abuse' will never suffice to carry a point; it can do nothing but provide a bit of amusement and convey the impression you are not really up to the task you have appointed for yourself.

When you charge someone with vast ignorance on some matter, you necessarily take upon yourself the burden of demonstrating that ignorance, if the charge is to be sustained, and if you cannot sustain it, the effect of the charge recoils upon you yourself.

You must therefore find, in my various comments on the subject nearby, some statement regarding assault rifles that actually manifests ignorance, that mis-states facts regarding them. Your problem, which you have frankly and openly confessed by your reply above, is that you can find no such mis-statements of fact. The closest thing to a disagreement on fact on the topic of assault rifles you have attempted to press with me is to maintain that my stating it is 'damned difficult' to acquire a machine-gun stamp is materially different from your stating it is 'costly and time-consuming' to acquire one. Few persons accustomed to using the English language will be disposed to agree those statements are materially different in meaning, since high cost and lengthy waiting are generally taken to be difficulties when they attend any endeavor, and so all you have done is specify what some of the particulars subsumed under 'damned difficult' are.

The real area of disagreement in our exchanges has nothing to do with the characteristics of assault rifles, but rather with your charge that a reporter is being dishonest and sloppy, by employing the vernacular rather than the afficianado's usage of a particular term. That charge does not seem sustainable to me, and the project of remaking vernacular usage to afficianado's jargon seems to me a game nowhere near worth the candle. What has been the predominant characteristic of our exchange is your poor reaction to being disagreed with; your loss of temper, your rapid descent into abuse, and speedy adoption of kindergarten mannerisms.

This highlights one of the great difficulties many people have with the debate on firearms, and with many on the side of it you uphold. The wielding of deadly force is a thing for mature individuals, who can, as the phrase goes, maintain some grace under pressure: it is not a thing to be entrusted to hot-heads, to people with a chip on their shoulder, who are looking eagerly for enemies and fights. There are some things in this world which, by their very nature, suggest that a passionate desire to obtain them is, or at any rate ought to be, a positive bar to being allowed to acquire them, since persons with a passionate desire for them are the group that is in general least likely to use them correctly and constructively.

"The question is not whether there is a right to do it, the question is whether it is the right thing to do."
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Scout Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-14-08 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. well done, Sir! bravo!
This highlights one of the great difficulties many people have with the debate on firearms, and with many on the side of it you uphold. The wielding of deadly force is a thing for mature individuals, who can, as the phrase goes, maintain some grace under pressure: it is not a thing to be entrusted to hot-heads, to people with a chip on their shoulder, who are looking eagerly for enemies and fights. There are some things in this world which, by their very nature, suggest that a passionate desire to obtain them is, or at any rate ought to be, a positive bar to being allowed to acquire them, since persons with a passionate desire for them are the group that is in general least likely to use them correctly and constructively.

one of the best posts/paragraphs I've seen on DU and here in the gungeon especially.
:toast: :yourock: :applause:

may i steal that para for my sig line? i promise i'll give you credit! :hi:
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-14-08 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. Thank You, Ma'am
If you wish to use the line, by all means, consider it a gift.

You should know, though, Ma'am, that my views on the matter as a political question are pretty far from what Mr. Jody doubtless imagines them to be. Whatever one's view of the rights or wrongs of the question, private ownership of firearms, regarded as a Constitutional right, is far too deeply ingrained in our society to be altered by normal political methods. Both sides need to calm down and seek areas of agreement, which must exist between people of good will engaged in any dispute. For there is also no question that the widespread private possession of firearms does cause some problems in our society, and it would be wise to address these. In order to do this, it is important to isolate those elements on both sides who are unwilling to compromise in the interest of the widest public good, and expose them for what they are: irrational fanatics, dwelling in a lurid libertarian delusion on the one hand, and committed to the soft authoritarianism of 'nanny state' nonsense on the other.
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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-14-08 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #35
40. That was a lot of words.
This highlights one of the great difficulties many people have with the debate on firearms, and with many on the side of it you uphold. The wielding of deadly force is a thing for mature individuals, who can, as the phrase goes, maintain some grace under pressure: it is not a thing to be entrusted to hot-heads, to people with a chip on their shoulder, who are looking eagerly for enemies and fights. There are some things in this world which, by their very nature, suggest that a passionate desire to obtain them is, or at any rate ought to be, a positive bar to being allowed to acquire them, since persons with a passionate desire for them are the group that is in general least likely to use them correctly and constructively.

That was a lot of words to say that you think people passionate about the second amendment shouldn't be allowed to own firearms.

Does this mean that those most passionate about the right to speak freely should remain silent?

If it were not for the passionate speaking for our Constitutional rights we would abandon their defense to the apathetic.

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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-14-08 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. You Said Above, Sir, You Possessed A Weapon Against the Possibility Of Insurrection
Do you actually consider that a rational act, a rational motivation, and a genuine danger against which you must prepare?
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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-14-08 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. Yes, absolutely.
You Said Above, Sir, You Possessed A Weapon Against the Possibility Of Insurrection Do you actually consider that a rational act, a rational motivation, and a genuine danger against which you must prepare?

Yes, I do, as I have posted many times before. It is, in fact, the fundamental reason our founders enumerated the right to keep and bear arms by the citizenry - to be able to eliminate the need for, or at least counter, federal military power. This is the fundamental basis for the right to keep and bear arms. It is as rational an act, motivation, and genuine danger as it was in the founders' day.

To be sure, I consider the possibility of civil chaos far more possible than insurrection. Also I am hopeful that with the defeat of the Republican regime we will reverse our course towards totalitarianism and the need to use our firearms to resist tyranny.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-14-08 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #42
45. You Have, At Least, Sir, Chosen To Engage On Fundamentals Of the Question, Which Is Commendable
Edited on Fri Nov-14-08 07:25 PM by The Magistrate
More than most items of the Constitution, the Second Amendment bears the marks of its time. It embodies a particular view of political organization, takes one side of an emerging debate concerning military organization in the late eighteenth century, and reflects existing conditions of economic feasibility and military technology, colored by a somewhat romanticized view of the events in the recent Revolution. Because it is the least appreciated, the second item enumerated might be best gone into first.

Experience of warfare in Europe during the eighteenth century had begun to disclose certain limitations to the effectiveness of the typical standing armies of the period. Chief among these were cost of maintenance, and isolation from the society they served. These made them peculiarly brittle instruments when wars moved beyond the usual limited engagements over dynastic trifles to questions of serious national existence, such as emerged in the course of the Seven Years War, which might well have eventuated in the destruction of Prussia as an independent state, and more or less bankrupted the Bourbon monarchy of France. In both countries students of the military art began to formulate the idea of 'the nation in arms' as a better implement for war than the quasi-mercenary standing army, feeling that this could harness the full power of the nation more effectively, and more cheaply, at least in money terms, and that it would prove a more reliable and more dedicated implement in serious conflict. It was in some ways as much a throw-back to the old medieval 'heer' as it was a forward looking idea, but it was certainly to prove its value in the wars of the French Revolution, and set the pattern for industrial war in the twentieth century. It did not gain much footing in its earliest days, however, and for good reasons flowing out of the state of military technology and actual social patterns at the time.

Persons whose view of the military art of this period is conditioned by visions of 'minutemen' fighting 'Indian style' enjoying great success against serried ranks of 'redcoats' miss completely what the state of the art actually was, and just how lethal an implement those serried tanks were. A half-company of sixty men in rank, firing three rounds per minute in volley, put out about the same volume of fire in that time as a light machine team in the Second World War period equipped with a typical air-cooled, drum or clip fed weapon like a Degtyarev DP or a Bren, and had about the same tactical utility in actual practice. The problem was how to condition men to work precisely, in unison, despite the tremendous fear, and frequent bloody demonstration of just how well founded that fear was, and to hold them in position to do the work when it had to be done. This required a great deal of practice in the mechanics of loading and firing, and the inculcation of a habit of unthinking obedience. It took some time, and a good deal of mind-numbing brutality, to make a good soldier. Simply knowing how to load and prime and pull a trigger was not nearly enough. Herding men close was not just a function of the need to concentrate fire in order to provide by mass effect what individual accuracy could never achieve. The aristocrats officering armies then were under no illusions that the men they directed were fired by a dedicated patriotism and willingness to uphold the social order of their country. But in dense mass, a sort of herd instinct takes over, a corporate identity emerges in which men are loyal to their fellows, and even to their chiefs whom they have come to fear and respect, and this was viewed, and even today is viewed, as a far more certain cement to morale and fighting spirit than any other conceivable motivation. The fact is that men fighting in dispersion, in skirmish order, tend to 'funk it', to revert to individuals, acting more from individual interest, including individual survival, than otherwise. Men who feel no great attachment to a cause for which they are fighting simply cannot be trusted to fight properly on their own. Some will do so, certainly, but the general level of performance will be poorer, and this is particularly so when the soldier is a member of a degraded and exploited caste, uneducated, with no horizon of loyalty past immediate family and home village, as was always the case in this period in Europe.

English military organization, which the North American colonies necessarily inherited, retained a number of features more attuned to the 'nation in arms' concept than existed on the continent. From the Elizabethan period the principal military focus of England was naval, and army traditions and practices came up from the Civil War, fought by privately raised forces whether on the side of the Crown or Parliament. The standing army remained small, and greatly restricted in its operations by Parliament, to such a degree that logistical operations were wholly divorced from military command, while militia forces liable to emergency calling up were a considerable portion of the whole. Even regular forces retained a certain 'private' character, as a regiment was in some sense virtually the property of its establishing Colonel, but this was much more pronounced in militia bodies, which were often virtually private clubs consisting of a clique of gentleman officers whose retainers and tenants formed the rank and file. Training was sketchy, and the bodies viewed by regular officers as of little use for anything more strenuous than suppressing civil outbreaks, and indeed there were normally legal restrictions on employing militia forces outside England. In the North American colonies, bodies of this character in normal times were the nearest thing to 'regular' forces in existence, and militia in the old sense of the 'heer', the levying up of able-bodied men from some threatened district in time of emergency, was an important element of the military power available to deal with conflicts with the Indian nations, or rival European colonials. It was principally with forces of these types that the portion of the Seven Years War fought in North America was conducted, what we in this country are apt to call The French and Indian War.

Militia bodies of emergency levy character were, in the circumstances of the time, largely dependent for what effectiveness they had on the weapons possessed by the populace called to arms. The local authorities had no money to obtain and maintain stocks of muskets in store against the occasion of emergency use, the most they were likely to have was some small store of powder and flints. The populace had to bring its own fire-arms to the call, and often provide its own bullets and powder as well. In some jurisdictions, men were required to possess arms themselves, and sometimes paid a small bounty to assist with the cost of doing so. A goodly portion of the militia which eventually mustered against the Crown in the early days of the Revolution possessed their arms under such regulations. Standing militia bodies, on the 'gentleman's club' pattern, of course possessed their weapons privately, the cost often defrayed by the unit's patron, or by subscription or dues levied on officers and men in the ranks.

Popular founding myth to the contrary, the militia with which the Continentals commenced the Revolution did not perform to much good effect against the English army. Around the fringes of the main battles, where the conflict remained one of small scale and guerrilla character, the militia did perform effectively, but it was not in these places that the outcome was decided. Saratoga was about the only real victory of the militia over the regulars, and that fight was decided more by the isolation of Burgoyne than by any superiority of the militia as a fighting implement. The Continentals did not begin to win real victories over the English until, with assistance from France, they trained up regular forces of their own and employed them in the standard manner of armies of the period, that was best suited to the weaponry and human material available. Regular forces provided by France played an important role in securing victory, and indeed, the crowning stroke that secured the surrender of Cornwallis at Yorktown was a victory by the French battle fleet in the waters off Virginia. The fact is that the victory of the Revolution was secured by regular forces of standing army style, and even by the employment of the crowning regular technical force of the time, a fleet of ships of the line.

The chaos of the pre-Constitutional period, under the Articles of Confederacy, is another thing that has largely passed from the popular mind. The fact is that each state in that time regarded itself as a sovereign and independent country, separate from the rest as any two states in Europe. The political leadership within each state, which necessarily was the expression of the wealthiest elements of its society, certainly cherished this view in all cases, as this gave more scope to its local ambitions, and its pride of place. Bringing men fired by such sentiments into a functioning Union did require much compromise, and accommodation of these essentially irridentist attitudes. Federal government was indeed, at least on paper, hamstrung militarily, and the largely mythical power of 'the militia' elevated as a military check against the equally mythical phantasm of 'federal tyranny', as a means of lubricating the joining of the separate states into some semblance of a common central government. In fact, of course, it never did, and never has done, any such thing as provide a check against 'federal tyranny'. 'Federal tyranny' almost immediately was undertaken in the financial sphere, when the assumption of state debts was turned into a colossal swindle, and was imposed on residents of the Appalachian frontier, in the episode which has come down in history as 'The Whisky Rebellion". In that brutal repression, far from providing resistance to Federal tyranny, state militia, drawn from coastal districts, actively aided it. The nearest thing to militia providing 'resistance to federal tyranny' in our country's history is our Civil War, and of course the southern states' claim that they were 'resisting federal tyranny' because they did not like the outcome of the election of 1860 was stuff and nonesense, and stuff and nonesense in a most shabby and cruelly degraded cause.

The wording of the Second Amendment clearly reflects all these conditions of time and place, and viewed as an airy hypothetical, could be taken as having at least the potential to secure its apparent object. It postulates a circumstance in which the principal military force of the nation consists of militia under state direction, said militia to consist of both formal bodies maintained in existence as a species of club, and the potential for emergency levying up the population of free men en masse. Both these, in the condition of the times, required arms in no wise different from the arms of a contemporary standing army to be owned by private citizens, and that was indeed the case. The muzzle-loading musket or rifle owned by a farmer was no different from, or less effective than, the weapons employed by infantrymen of any army in the world; cannon indistinguishable from the field-pieces or naval pieces of any country were privately owned by merchant skippers and others. If the only consideration in military effectiveness were the grade of arms in men's hands, one could say the militia so fostered could prove a match for Federal regulars if it ever came to cases.

It is just as clear that these conditions do not obtain at present, and that this real meaning and intent of the Second Amendment has been wholly put aside, and put aside many years ago. Militia under state direction, more or less the various state National Guards, is a mere auxiliary to the national, Federal military forces, and is in no meaningful way under the direction of a state's governor as a military force. No actual mechanism exists for any governor to call up the able-bodied populace of his or her state to muster under the arms it possesses as an emergency military force, and certainly not to do so as a response to some incursion on the state's prerogatives by the Federal government. The complete dominance of Federal over state authority has been solidly established in our political institutions and customs, and while the charming fiction of state sovereignty persists, and even has some uses, it is mostly meaningless, and this state of affairs is not going to be reversed. It is flatly illegal, and will remain flatly illegal, for individual citizens to own in any meaningful quantity arms of similar grade and effectiveness to those employed by the armed forces of the United States. While a small number of automatic weapons are in private hands, under great and carefully vetted restriction, field guns, anti-tank and anti-aircraft missiles, battle-tanks, attack helicopters, fighter-bombers, frigates, aircraft carriers, etc., are conspicuously scarce in private hands. But in the world envisioned by the Second Amendment at its origin, all these things would be privately held, and garnished with an M-16 or a Kalashnikov, rigged for full automatic fire, in a closet in most homes throughout the land. Even if one were to envision the resistance to 'federal tyranny' taking the form of asymmetric, irregular warfare, this would require for its effect widespread ownership of, and expertise in the compounding of, and employment of, high explosives and blasting agents, detonators, means of remote triggering, and a host of other items sure to provoke police interest were one to set out to acquire them in quantity. Small arms, even small arms capable of fully automatic fire, are not the sinews of irregular resistance to a modern military force engaged in repression of a restive populace. The fact is that there is no meaningful capacity among the citizenry of the United States to resist its government in arms, and the Second Amendment does not provide today any such capability to the citizenry of this country, nor will it ever.

That the thing has outlived its actual, original purpose, is simply past argument, and what we are left with is the question of what purpose it serves now, in the actual present time when we live. Persons who respond that it remains 'a check on federal tyranny' simply are not being serious, and cannot be taken seriously. Just about all the declarations of what purpose the Second Amendment serves at present boil down to "I want to own a gun or guns, and it makes it my right to do so." In the present day, it is hard to press an argument that the desire to own fire-arms is more functional than emotional. The claim that a fire-arm is needed for self-defense is, as a matter of practical probability, mostly illusory. While it is certainly true that firearms are on occasion used as implements of self-defense, it is very unlikely any particular individual will actually be in a position to do this, and then do so successfully. Hunting can be an enjoyable sport, but is rarely a necessity. Target shooting is rum fun, without question, as is sky-diving, bungee jumping, drag-racing, and any number of other high-intensity experiences. Indeed, one of the less examined elements of this whole question is just how much fun, what a tremendous, intoxicating thrill it is, to shoot a gun. It is, as the phrase goes, some of the best fun that can be had while fully clothed. Firing a gun gives the shooter a tremendous rush of power; to pull the trigger is to be Zeus hurling a thunderbolt, to briefly experience the power of life and death in one's own hand, even if what the round is sent speeding towards is nothing but a sheet of paper. The attraction of this feeling ought not to be underestimated, and deserves honest examination, particularly on the part of those who sample its joy often. People crave intense pleasures, and are very skilled at providing reasons why they should partake of them again, and again, and again and again and again....
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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-14-08 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #45
49. Replies.
(much snippage)

Popular founding myth to the contrary, the militia with which the Continentals commenced the Revolution did not perform to much good effect against the English army.


The chaos of the pre-Constitutional period, under the Articles of Confederacy, is another thing that has largely passed from the popular mind. The fact is that each state in that time regarded itself as a sovereign and independent country, separate from the rest as any two states in Europe. The political leadership within each state, which necessarily was the expression of the wealthiest elements of its society, certainly cherished this view in all cases, as this gave more scope to its local ambitions, and its pride of place. Bringing men fired by such sentiments into a functioning Union did require much compromise, and accommodation of these essentially irridentist attitudes. Federal government was indeed, at least on paper, hamstrung militarily, and the largely mythical power of 'the militia' elevated as a military check against the equally mythical phantasm of 'federal tyranny', as a means of lubricating the joining of the separate states into some semblance of a common central government. In fact, of course, it never did, and never has done, any such thing as provide a check against 'federal tyranny'. 'Federal tyranny' almost immediately was undertaken in the financial sphere, when the assumption of state debts was turned into a colossal swindle, and was imposed on residents of the Appalachian frontier, in the episode which has come down in history as 'The Whisky Rebellion". In that brutal repression, far from providing resistance to Federal tyranny, state militia, drawn from coastal districts, actively aided it. The nearest thing to militia providing 'resistance to federal tyranny' in our country's history is our Civil War, and of course the southern states' claim that they were 'resisting federal tyranny' because they did not like the outcome of the election of 1860 was stuff and nonesense, and stuff and nonesense in a most shabby and cruelly degraded cause.

And for all its supposed ineffectiveness, the founders of our nation decided that such militias were necessary to the security of a free state, to the point that they enumerated their existence and function in our Constitution, second only to free speech.

Your premise, that the creation of such militias was simply a balm to salve the States as they formed a Union, I reject. Contemporary documents, such as I have cited in this forum before, indicate the thoughts of the founders on this topic explicitly. The desire, plainly, was to eliminate the need for, or at least counter, federal military power in the event of the re-occurrence of an oppressive tyranny.

In fact, more than just on paper, for the first 5 years of our nation there was no standing federal army, save for an artillery unit at West Point. And, righteous in their cause or not, the effectiveness of the States of the Confederacy to rebel I suspect in no small part was remembered when, in 1903, the State militias were federalized to form the National Guard and the military power of the States usurped by the federal government.

The wording of the Second Amendment clearly reflects all these conditions of time and place, and viewed as an airy hypothetical, could be taken as having at least the potential to secure its apparent object. It postulates a circumstance in which the principal military force of the nation consists of militia under state direction, said militia to consist of both formal bodies maintained in existence as a species of club, and the potential for emergency levying up the population of free men en masse. Both these, in the condition of the times, required arms in no wise different from the arms of a contemporary standing army to be owned by private citizens, and that was indeed the case. The muzzle-loading musket or rifle owned by a farmer was no different from, or less effective than, the weapons employed by infantrymen of any army in the world; cannon indistinguishable from the field-pieces or naval pieces of any country were privately owned by merchant skippers and others. If the only consideration in military effectiveness were the grade of arms in men's hands, one could say the militia so fostered could prove a match for Federal regulars if it ever came to cases.

And this is precisely why our founders specifically spoke in general terms as "arms" rather than list specific armament. And it is also why, in order to be true to the intent of the founders, The People should, just as then, be similarly armed with small arms as our infantry forces are today.

It is just as clear that these conditions do not obtain at present, and that this real meaning and intent of the Second Amendment has been wholly put aside, and put aside many years ago. Militia under state direction, more or less the various state National Guards, is a mere auxiliary to the national, Federal military forces, and is in no meaningful way under the direction of a state's governor as a military force. No actual mechanism exists for any governor to call up the able-bodied populace of his or her state to muster under the arms it possesses as an emergency military force, and certainly not to do so as a response to some incursion on the state's prerogatives by the Federal government. The complete dominance of Federal over state authority has been solidly established in our political institutions and customs, and while the charming fiction of state sovereignty persists, and even has some uses, it is mostly meaningless, and this state of affairs is not going to be reversed.

On this I agree with you. The militias of old no longer exist, their power having been usurped in 1903 with the passage of the Dick Act. However, in spite of this, in fact because of this, it is imperative that the right default to The People, who, despite no longer having a militia to bind them, still retain the uninfringed right to keep and bear arms for the purpose of insuring the security of a free state.

It is flatly illegal, and will remain flatly illegal, for individual citizens to own in any meaningful quantity arms of similar grade and effectiveness to those employed by the armed forces of the United States. While a small number of automatic weapons are in private hands, under great and carefully vetted restriction, field guns, anti-tank and anti-aircraft missiles, battle-tanks, attack helicopters, fighter-bombers, frigates, aircraft carriers, etc., are conspicuously scarce in private hands. But in the world envisioned by the Second Amendment at its origin, all these things would be privately held, and garnished with an M-16 or a Kalashnikov, rigged for full automatic fire, in a closet in most homes throughout the land. Even if one were to envision the resistance to 'federal tyranny' taking the form of asymmetric, irregular warfare, this would require for its effect widespread ownership of, and expertise in the compounding of, and employment of, high explosives and blasting agents, detonators, means of remote triggering, and a host of other items sure to provoke police interest were one to set out to acquire them in quantity. Small arms, even small arms capable of fully automatic fire, are not the sinews of irregular resistance to a modern military force engaged in repression of a restive populace. The fact is that there is no meaningful capacity among the citizenry of the United States to resist its government in arms, and the Second Amendment does not provide today any such capability to the citizenry of this country, nor will it ever.

Firstly, the founders were clear that the State militias were to serve as a replacement, or at least a bulwark against, a federal army. No provision was made for navies, or, though obviously unknown, other future branches of the service such as the air force. Presumably this was because it was unlikely that a frigate would be dragged from state to state as an instrument of oppression.

Secondly, this argument is also one I have heard many times before - that The People, even armed with small arms equivalent to those of our infantry, would be ineffective in rebellion. There is no doubt that any effective rebellion will also call upon improvised or stolen munitions in addition to firearms. But just as small arms, trivial as they are compared to the rest of the might of our modern army, still remain a part of it, so they will be a part of any rebellious force. I have no doubt that the acquisition of the other instruments of rebellion will only be eased by the possession of small arms - surely they are no detriment to that task.

I do not even bemoan the lack of fully automatic weapons in civilian hands in appreciable numbers. The machine gun is primarily a suppression weapon and when used against a superior force is likely only to result in the calling in of artillery and/or air support. Semi-automatic arms will serve well enough should the need arise for small arms. Remember, it was not too long ago that 2 men shooting out of the key-hole of the trunk of a car effectively shut down a large metro area. Imagine 2000 such shooters.

That the thing has outlived its actual, original purpose, is simply past argument, and what we are left with is the question of what purpose it serves now, in the actual present time when we live. Persons who respond that it remains 'a check on federal tyranny' simply are not being serious, and cannot be taken seriously.

I reject this assertion. The original purpose - that a government might one day cease to serve its people and instead strive to oppress them, is as real a possibility today as it was when our founders sought to enumerate the means to resist such oppression some 200+ years ago. The last eight years of governance in this country have seen us closer to that day than possibly we have ever been. That the task of resistance might be harder today is certainly no argument to discard that little ability of resistance that remains. That such resistance remains possible is easily seen by witnessing such struggles in recent history such as Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Iraq. Many can and have debated the role small arms played in such struggles, but I continue to assert I would rather start with some weaponry than none.

Just about all the declarations of what purpose the Second Amendment serves at present boil down to "I want to own a gun or guns, and it makes it my right to do so." In the present day, it is hard to press an argument that the desire to own fire-arms is more functional than emotional. The claim that a fire-arm is needed for self-defense is, as a matter of practical probability, mostly illusory.

And yet every month in my America's Fist Freedom magazine I am provided with anecdotes of people who have lived the illusion. The fact is, small arms are used effectively for self-defense. And despite all the warnings that I'm actually less safe with a firearm in my possession, in a self-defense situation I'd gladly take having a firearm over not having one any day. As my martial arts instructor told us years ago - guns trump martial arts every time.

While it is certainly true that firearms are on occasion used as implements of self-defense, it is very unlikely any particular individual will actually be in a position to do this, and then do so successfully.

It also seems, after a lifetime of uneventfulness, that it is unlikely that fire or flood insurance on my home is necessary. Likewise the fire extinguishers we keep. And yet I still retain them in the case of those eventualities. Your argument is that firearms are unlikely to be successfully used for self defense. Evidence to the contrary notwithstanding, no matter how unlikely my success, having the means to resist is infinitely better than being defenseless.

Hunting can be an enjoyable sport, but is rarely a necessity.

If our economy keeps heading the way it has been, you may be re-assessing that assertion. I haven't hunted in years, but I'm going to this year to try and put some meat in the freezer and cut down on the monthly food bill.

Target shooting is rum fun, without question, as is sky-diving, bungee jumping, drag-racing, and any number of other high-intensity experiences. Indeed, one of the less examined elements of this whole question is just how much fun, what a tremendous, intoxicating thrill it is, to shoot a gun. It is, as the phrase goes, some of the best fun that can be had while fully clothed. Firing a gun gives the shooter a tremendous rush of power; to pull the trigger is to be Zeus hurling a thunderbolt, to briefly experience the power of life and death in one's own hand, even if what the round is sent speeding towards is nothing but a sheet of paper. The attraction of this feeling ought not to be underestimated, and deserves honest examination, particularly on the part of those who sample its joy often. People crave intense pleasures, and are very skilled at providing reasons why they should partake of them again, and again, and again and again and again....

So what is your argument here? That because it is fun is no justification for allowing such a hobby? Despite the fact that out of the 40-80 million firearm owners in this country less than 2% are involved in criminal activity with them every year? Even if fun were the sole justification for firearm ownership, which it most certainly is not, the fact that the 98% of the 40-80 million firearm owners every year partake in their fun with no harm to anyone tells me I'm going to keep having my fun in spite of the 2%.

The fact of the matter is, as I have often said, the second amendment is not about hunting, or target shooting, or even particularly about self-defense. Nonetheless, these are all valid uses of firearms, whether you agree with them or their necessity or not. There are countless things that we all enjoy every day that are not necessities - this is one of the benefits of living in a free society where the fruits of our labor do not have to be justified by need. And given that the vast majority of firearms and firearm owners are hardly ever involved in crime, I see no justification for restricting them even if pleasure were the sole reason for their existence.



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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #49
52. A Few Points In Continuation, Sir
The statements of the Founders on the efficacy of militia do not much impress me. Politicians talk a lot of smack, and these men were politicians pure and simple. Serious histories of the Revolution, and for that matter of 1812, will bear out my statements regarding the efficacy of militia versus drilled regulars.

Actually, in the early period of our nation, the bulk of naval power was in private hands, and is best understood as a sort of maritime militia. Privateers operating under Letters of Marque constituted the bulk of the highly effective U.S. effort against England on the high seas in the 1812 war. These did tremendous damage to English commerce, while the Royal Navy had to remain concentrated on containing the French fleet and blockading the continent. The U.S. held to Letters of Marque longer than European naval powers did, and was viewed as something of a rogue state for doing so.

The restructuring of U.S. military forces shortly after the turn of the twentieth century owed nothing to curbing the 'potential for rebellion' of state militias, and everything to the tremendous inefficiencies of the militia system in modern war as revealed by the 1898 war with Spain and the campaigns of suppression in the Philippines. Like it or not, at that point the U.S. was stepping out onto the world stage as an imperial power, at the dawn of the age of industrial war, and accordingly needed to reconfigure its armed forces into something apt for the task.

Pointing to nationalist struggles against colonialization or invasion as a model for what domestic resistance to 'federal tyranny' here might resemble has little validity. Fighting against 'the foreigner' is always a different experience, and rouses deep biological passions. Further, in all three of the instances you name, there were major features of the conflict that would be absent in any hypothetical domestic resistance here. Outside powers with an interest in keeping the fight going, for example, feature in all three of the instances you cite. Without U.S. assistance, the Afghans would not have expelled the Soviets, and without assistance from the quasi independent elements within the Pakistani government and within that country, as well as a sort of jihadist internationale, the Taliban would not be moving from success to success today. A much better model, unfortunately, for the likely outcome, is events in South American during the late sixties and early seventies, when domestic guerrilla movements that received no outside assistance were brutally and absolutely crushed in Argentina and Uruguay and Brazil.

Finally, Sir, as time presses just now, permit to skip over some intervening items and proceed directly to the closing element.

One of the things which puzzles many people is the tremendous degree of passion brought to this matter by many who take the 'pro gun' position. The whole 'you can have my gun when you pry it from my cold dead hand' ethos, the ease with which some people will disregard all considerations of economic and social self interest and vote for politicians and policies that actively harm them, because otherwise 'they're gonna come grab my guns', all seems disproportionate, indeed, weirdly disproportionate. It needs accounting for, whatever factor it is that actually brings it into balance. It occurs to me, having experienced it myself on many occasions, that the tremendous thrill it is to fire a gun, might be that factor that makes the passion understandable. It is not an argument for or against anything, strictly speaking, but rather an invitation to reflection, and cultivating honest awareness, and clear self awareness, of what undergirds an ostensibly political, even historical position on this subject.
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #52
56. Not just RKBA..
<snip> the ease with which some people will disregard all considerations of economic and social self interest and vote for politicians and policies that actively harm them, because otherwise 'they're gonna come grab my guns', all seems disproportionate, indeed, weirdly disproportionate.

Couldn't the same be said for any single issue voter though? Pro-life christian conservatives vote for candidates who support the death penalty and war, etc. The phenomenon isn't limited to RKBA supporters.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #56
57. Welcome to DU’s Guns-Fortress where Democrats defend RKBA protected by the Second Amendment against
those who want to disarm “We the People” forcing us to submit to violent criminals.

If you are a loyal Democrat and pro-RKBA, join us in protecting the 2nd with facts and history that predates our Constitution.

SCOTUS says our defense is impregnable.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #56
58. True, Mr. Digger
'Single-issue' voters are something of an enduring mystery. But it does seem to me that the underlying thread to the phenomenon, whatever the issue fixated on is, is some form of deep emotional gratification, which the reasons proferred for the action are more intended to cover over than explain.
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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-08 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #52
61. Replies.
Edited on Sun Nov-16-08 01:12 PM by gorfle
The statements of the Founders on the efficacy of militia do not much impress me. Politicians talk a lot of smack, and these men were politicians pure and simple. Serious histories of the Revolution, and for that matter of 1812, will bear out my statements regarding the efficacy of militia versus drilled regulars.

Well then we will have to agree to disagree. Contemporary writings bear out that regardless of the efficacy of the militia, the intent of the founders was to have an armed populace so that rebellion would be possible again if necessary. The bottom line is, whether you are impressed or not, it is a part of our Constitution, and as such, and as Heller has upheld, the right to keep and bear arms is Constitutionally protected. If the majority of Americans agree with you that the second amendment is antiquated and no longer necessary then it should be relatively easy to pass a Constitutional amendment to repeal it.

Actually, in the early period of our nation, the bulk of naval power was in private hands, and is best understood as a sort of maritime militia. Privateers operating under Letters of Marque constituted the bulk of the highly effective U.S. effort against England on the high seas in the 1812 war. These did tremendous damage to English commerce, while the Royal Navy had to remain concentrated on containing the French fleet and blockading the continent. The U.S. held to Letters of Marque longer than European naval powers did, and was viewed as something of a rogue state for doing so.

Yes, this is true. It's also true that the armed citizenry was stipulated in response to the federal army, not navy (or air forces, or other branches of the service as you had suggested). Sorry I can no longer locate the source.

The restructuring of U.S. military forces shortly after the turn of the twentieth century owed nothing to curbing the 'potential for rebellion' of state militias, and everything to the tremendous inefficiencies of the militia system in modern war as revealed by the 1898 war with Spain and the campaigns of suppression in the Philippines. Like it or not, at that point the U.S. was stepping out onto the world stage as an imperial power, at the dawn of the age of industrial war, and accordingly needed to reconfigure its armed forces into something apt for the task.

I am aware of this. I'm also aware that it effectively removed the possibility of another state-sponsored civil war, by removing their military power. I guess just like you are willing to believe the second amendment wasn't written in earnest, I'm willing to believe ulterior motives in federalizing the state militias.

Pointing to nationalist struggles against colonialization or invasion as a model for what domestic resistance to 'federal tyranny' here might resemble has little validity. Fighting against 'the foreigner' is always a different experience, and rouses deep biological passions. Further, in all three of the instances you name, there were major features of the conflict that would be absent in any hypothetical domestic resistance here. Outside powers with an interest in keeping the fight going, for example, feature in all three of the instances you cite. Without U.S. assistance, the Afghans would not have expelled the Soviets, and without assistance from the quasi independent elements within the Pakistani government and within that country, as well as a sort of jihadist internationale, the Taliban would not be moving from success to success today. A much better model, unfortunately, for the likely outcome, is events in South American during the late sixties and early seventies, when domestic guerrilla movements that received no outside assistance were brutally and absolutely crushed in Argentina and Uruguay and Brazil.

And, of course, there is nothing to say there wouldn't be external assistance or meddling with an uprising here. One wonders what role Mexico, for example, might play? There have already been rumblings by extremists to "retake" portions of the lower United States by the large influx of Mexican immigrants. Who's to say such an opportunity would not be exploited?

But this hypothetical argument is moot in any case. The real argument is really just this simple: In the advent of oppression, would you rather The People have a means to resist, regardless of effectiveness or allies to help, or not? The founders were clear on this. And even if you think this was just salve to get the States to go along with the Union, then clearly, at least the States thought this was laudable, or else there would have been no need for the salve.

One of the things which puzzles many people is the tremendous degree of passion brought to this matter by many who take the 'pro gun' position. The whole 'you can have my gun when you pry it from my cold dead hand' ethos, the ease with which some people will disregard all considerations of economic and social self interest and vote for politicians and policies that actively harm them, because otherwise 'they're gonna come grab my guns', all seems disproportionate, indeed, weirdly disproportionate. It needs accounting for, whatever factor it is that actually brings it into balance. It occurs to me, having experienced it myself on many occasions, that the tremendous thrill it is to fire a gun, might be that factor that makes the passion understandable. It is not an argument for or against anything, strictly speaking, but rather an invitation to reflection, and cultivating honest awareness, and clear self awareness, of what undergirds an ostensibly political, even historical position on this subject.

There is no doubt that shooting is fun. Maybe for some people, this is their sole justification. This is not the case for me. As I have stated numerous times in the past, I am passionate about firearms for many reasons.

Firstly, they are a connection to my ancestors. Firearms go back in my family for generations. I own firearms that belonged to my great-grandfathers, my grandfathers, and my father, not to mention other relatives whose firearms have come to me. When I handle my firearms, I feel a connection to, for example, my grandfather, who died when I was 5, who was an excellent pistol marksman until money was on the line, and then he could not shoot a whit. I have had the exact similar experience when throwing darts. When I handle my Ruger 10/22, given to me by my father when I was 12, I remember him teaching me how to shoot and hunt, and the many weekends I got to spend alone with him in the outdoors. Thus my firearms feel to me as a real part of my family heritage.

Secondly, I appreciate the craftsmanship and functionality of engineering and design in my firearms. Some are purely functional items, with little aesthetic, while others are exquisitely crafted, with beautiful would work, engraving, and gold inlay. I have great appreciation for such works in a precision piece of equipment that must function reliably in many conditions for years. I have special appreciation for my firearms that pre-date the industrial revolution and were each hand assembled and fitted piece by piece, with each piece being numbered exclusively to the firearm for which it was fitted. At the other end of the extreme I am amazed with weapons like my civilian AK-47, which are the epitome of low-cost mass production and yet still resulted in one of the most dependable and most produced assault rifles ever.

Even the fun of shooting I would not characterize as being fun simply by the "thrill" of unleashing firepower. To me, I have always enjoyed target shooting as a test of mental conditioning. One of my favorite weapons to target shoot with is my S&W Model 629 in .44 Magnum. This pistol is a challenge to shoot, as when it goes off it is, literally, a huge explosion in your hand. This makes it very challenging to hold the pistol steady and slowly squeeze the trigger when your mind knows what is going to happen at any second, by surprise. It's difficult, and rewarding to see how well I can overcome the innate desire to flinch under such stress. It is, somehow, relaxing. It is like meditation.

Even when shooting my tame .22 rifles and pistols, which have no recoil to mention, it is still fun to see how accurately I can shoot in different stances. Though I will occasionally shoot from a bench rest to see how many bullets the weapon is capable of drilling through the same hole, usually I find this boring and instead opt for shooting while standing, or with one hand, etc. It is the challenge of control over one's own body that makes the fun.

I know there are people who seem to derive satisfaction solely from the unleashing of destructive power. Once, at an indoor shooting range, there was a fellow in one of the stalls who simply was discharging the pistol as fast as he could empty the magazines. The storekeep had to go in and reprimand the shooter - "This is not a place for masturbation with a firearm", he said. I for one have never understood this "style" of shooting, nor could I afford it. On the rare occasion I get to go to the range (about every 3 months or so) I usually buy $80 or so worth of ammunition, which is usually good for 300 or so rounds of 9mm and .45 depending on the mix, and I try and make it last all day. I could loose it all in 30 minutes if I had a mind to.

Then, of course, there is hunting. Now I have never been an avid hunter - it is simply too much work and expense for the meat. I'd rather go down to the grocer and order up a couple of custom-cut fillets instead. But there is a satisfaction in the camaraderie, and in the knowledge that I can acquire food for my family if needs be. There's also a satisfaction in knowing that I possess an intimate understanding of food and sustenance whereas most people think food and sustenance comes from the grocery store.

So for me, the ownership of firearms is about far far more than the simple thrill of firing a gun. It is, rather, about one of the core filaments of the fabric of my life, woven back to when I was a child, and binds me to my family, and stands as a core pillar to my own discipline - a discipline that goes beyond the discipline of just shooting but also into all other aspects of my life.

Now I do agree completely that there are too many folks who have allowed firearms to be their litmus test for voting, and I was, in fact one of them. I assure you, it's not the thrill of shooting that enamors firearm owners to such politicians. Most pro-firearm folks consider themselves independent and self-sufficient. Thus, by extension, a politician that endorses firearm ownership is one that you would expect to also endorse independence and self-sufficiency. There is also the fact that given the innate power of firearms, a politician who endorses the people he governs possessing such power apparently trusts those people with that power, and this, in return, lends an air of trustworthiness to the politician. Conversely, a politician who does not trust the people with that power, especially when they retain elite security forces for their own protection, becomes suspect in their trustworthiness.

Unfortunately, to some degree, it has become a sham. Just as politicians have pandered to religious folks by touting "family values" to secure their votes, they say one thing, but then go back to their wide stances, page boys, affairs, and countless other means of debauchery. Too many voters don't or can't see this and instead are simply enamored by a politician who speaks of God and perhaps promises to keep the 10 commandments in a public building. It used to be (maybe?) that the issues that a candidate stood for could be viewed as insight into their character. Now, however, it seems that this is no longer so.

Likewise, with firearms, it seems that we have had years of politicians who espouse firearm ownership, but then in turn support "wars" that simply dump trillions of dollars of welfare into foreign nations and multi-national corporations feeding at the trough, and use such wars as excuses to seriously undermine our personal liberties here at home, with such escapades as suspension of Habeus Corpus, pervasive surveillance, "enemy combatants", and a litany of other offenses that, in spite of their support of the right to keep and bear arms, almost certainly put us on the road to the day when those firearms will have to be used as our founders intended. Most Americans, I suppose, lack the will or ability to see through their traditional litmus test issues and judge the true character of their politicians by their whole actions.

And so I see it as an invalid test of character, rather than the thrill of pulling a trigger, that drives single-issue voters. It is the sentiment of "Fear the government that fears my guns" that motivates them, not the sound of a gun going off. Unfortunately, or fortunately, depending on how you look at it, more and more Americans are coming around to the realization that there may well be reason to fear a politician even if he supports firearm ownership.
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Irreverend IX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-14-08 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. Do you actually consider that ... a genuine danger against which you must prepare?
No, of course not. I'm confident that our society, in its current form, will endure until the end of eternity. There is no chance that public order could ever collapse, that the police or military could ever cease to effectively function, that the peaceful existence most people take for granted could be replaced by mob rule. No chance whatsoever. Just ask the people of New Orleans.

Also, typing "Sir" over and over does little more than make you look silly and condescending. The Internet, as a medium, is not known for excessive formality.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-14-08 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #43
48. As A Matter Of Curiousity, Sir
How do you imagine the experience of an average resident of New Orleans during Katrina would have been improved by possession of a semi-automatic rifle of military outline with a twenty round clip attached?
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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-14-08 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. How your expereince can be improved.
Check out how these Koreans improved their situation with firearms during the 1992 LA riots:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUaoil0wsyU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quNEzN0_toc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKTw-UHalZc&feature=related

What events like this, and Katrina show us is that the fabric of civilized society is often tenuous. I believe that, in no small part thanks to our inflaming tensions in the Middle East, another attack upon the United States is inevitable. Moreover, if the perpetrators wish it, they could easily tear the fabric of our civilization apart. I have heard it said that Osama specifically targeted the trade centers as he was not intending an attack on the American People, but rather on its financial infrastructure. Whether this is true or not I don't know. But I do know that by attacking a skyscraper with aircraft he did not instill panic in the majority of our country, as most Americans do not fly on aircraft nor visit skyscrapers. Consequently while there was national outrage, there was no national panic. Should it ever be desired by an enemy to directly strike the people of this country, the most effective way may well be to detonate a low-yield nuclear device or biological weapon in any major city, and then call up CNN and proclaim to have similar devices in 5 other cities around the nation. It need not even be true. The panic evoked by a nuclear or biological weapon, regardless of potency, will absolutely and completely shut down a city, probably to the point that marshal law will have to be evoked to maintain order. People will flee the cities to the point where roads will become impassable. Supplies will dwindle rapidly as no one will be willing to deliver them into the cities. Chaos may rapidly ensue.

The above is the scenario that I feel is most likely to occur in my lifetime, and is one of the primary reasons I own firearms. Can I be successful in defending my home and family with my limited arsenal in such a situation? I don't know. I do believe that mobs of looters are mostly looking for quick, easy targets of opportunity. I imagine they will turn and flee when presented with resistance. Especially if, as the Koreans in the above videos did, teams of neighbors band together to form an impromptu posse.

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Irreverend IX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-14-08 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #35
46. ...a passionate desire to obtain them is blah blah blah blah
Okay, so anyone who wants a gun is too crazy to be allowed one. We've all heard that before. Unfortunately, the facts aren't on your side.

http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/stats/cw_monthly.html

Since 1987, Florida has issued 1,408,907 concealed carry permits. CCW permit holders don't just seek out the means to wield deadly force, they seek out the means to wield it in streets and stores and most every other public place! Surely these individuals must be among society's most depraved. But wait, it looks like their crime rate is incredibly low compared to the general population. In the 21 years since Florida started issuing permits, only 166 permit holders have had their permits revoked for committing a crime with a firearm; a total of 3,716 have had their licenses revoked for criminal offenses of any kind. In the year 2007 alone, 902 people were arrested (not convicted, just arrested) for murder in Florida and 131,781 violent crimes were reported. Docs here:

http://www.fdle.state.fl.us/FSAC/UCR/index.asp

It seems that CCW permit holders are an extraordinarily law-abiding subset of the population. How about that?
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-14-08 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. When You Ignore What Is Actually Said, Sir, You Will Run Into Certain Difficulties
My statement referred to individuals who display poor temper in pressing argument on the matter, and there certainly are such individuals. What proportion of persons successfully obtaining concealed carry permits might be of such unsuitable temperament is unknown to me.

Of more interest than the numbers provided might be some numbers relating to what use has actually been made of firearms by persons with such permits in either self-defense or defense of others. That would provide some handle on what the actual degree of threat such persons labor under in their daily lives is, and enable some assessment of whether their desire to carry a firearm at all times is or is not a reasonable response to their circumstances.

This is an important question, after all. Florida ranks fairly high among the states in violent crimes per capita, but violent crime concentrates among persons of lower socio-economic status, and younger persons. The higher one's income and greater one's age, the lower one's chances of encountering criminal violence are. If the population of persons obtaining concealed carry permits is comprised mostly of persons enjoying a degree of prosperity, and somewhat past their youth, it would consist mostly of persons who are far from likely ever to be presented with even the potential for menace in their daily lives. The quality of their judgement, and sensibility of their reactions, under such stress, will go largely untested. That is a question beyond whether or not one is law-abiding. Sensing impending violence, and reacting appropriately, is a skill like any other, and takes some practice; performing creditably in the face of the fear violence always evokes is similarly a skill, greatly aided by habituation to the powerful feelings clouding the mind in such moments. A serious attack by a professional predator will generally come by surprise, and take the victim at signifigant disadvantage.
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raimius Donating Member (201 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #47
65. What would that prove?
It seems you want evidence of how likely it is for CCW permit holder to encounter violence. Is this correct?
What conclusions would you draw from an above or below average correlation, when compared to an average of all citizens? It seems like that statistic would not reasonably lead to any conclusions about the wisdom of liberal carry rights.
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AtheistCrusader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #21
64. Not only difficult, but in many States, impossible.
Washington and California, two examples. Doubtless there are others.
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Irreverend IX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-14-08 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #11
44. No it wasn't.
How many times is someone quoted referring to "assault rifles" in that article. Once. And that quote isn't by a gun rights supporter, but by a guy who supports "regulating AK-47 sales" because "they aren't made to hunt," the facts that real fully automatic AK-47s are tightly restricted by federal law, that the 2nd Amendment has nothing to do with hunting and that loads of regulations on gun sales already exist notwithstanding.

The rest of the "assault rifle" references are stuck conveniently outside of quotation marks. One guy is said to "prefer AR-15s in the assault rifle category," but he isn't actually quoted referring to them as "assault rifles." A newswriter can stick any damn thing they like outside of quotation marks to serve as a paraphrase; it's a convenient way to twist people's words.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #44
55. Succinct post overflowing with truth. n/t
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-08 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. The reporter's first sentence is "Faster than a speeding bullet, assault rifles and ammunition are
Edited on Thu Nov-13-08 05:36 PM by jody
flying off of the racks in Louisiana’s gun shops."

That is not a quote, that is a statement by the reporter about "assault rifles" that is clearly not true.

Whether it is based on sloppy reporting or intentional is immaterial, it is clearly the reporter's error.
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DrCory Donating Member (862 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-14-08 08:41 AM
Original message
Huh?
Edited on Fri Nov-14-08 08:42 AM by DrCory
"It remains my view that these purchases are a product of mass hysteria, and that the persons engaged in them are mostly not quite on their mental balance, and hence have little business possessing anything more lethal than a box of toothpicks...."

I'm assuming you have read the Party's platform, correct? Does this "diagnosis" of yours apply to anyone who purchases an "assault rifle" after the General Election of 2008? I actually intend to purchase a Kalashnikov varient with so-called "pre-ban" features as I think it likely another AWB is in the works and wish to add one to my collection. Does this make me mentally unbalanced?
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SteveM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-08 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. "Mass hysteria"? Not really...
You have 2 Democratic candidates scheduled to take the 2 highest offices in the land, and both are on record supporting stringent gun-control, including support for a so-called "assault weapons ban." Even though I think such a ban is not going to be enacted, the party they represent has indeed enacted a 10-year "ban" attempt, and many reasonable people believe such a ban will again be attempted.

So, if you ever planned on purchasing a semi-auto carbine, this might be the time to do it.

Further, some companies in the U.S. (including Remington) are now selling semi-auto carbines of the AR-type in hunting calibers and "dressed" in camo to hide the "scary" features. And certainly, there are speculators who are gaming the market.

It doesn't surprise me that some people purchasing this class of rifle would incorrectly refer to them as "assault rifles" since the term was so thoroughly (and intentionally) corrupted by gun-controllers when they first got that gleam in their respective eyes. That corruption of terms has been intentionally promulgated by MSM ever since. The latest example? NBC last night in a T.V. piece, noting how "assault rifles" were flying off the shelves. Of course, they also showed pictures of folks firing semi-auto pistols; after all, when you corrupt one term...
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-08 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Noting That, You, Sir, Doubt There Will Be Such a Ban
You have conceded that the drive to quickly acquire these items is not rational, with the exception of those who are looking to take advantage of others in future through resale.
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DonP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-08 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #5
15. It's perfectly rational in terms of $
It's pretty much a supply and demand issue.

The price on a Bushmaster lower went from $225 last month to $350 the day before yesterday. Complete guns have gone up even more.

Most distributors are now sold out of them and the next round of orders will undoubtedly be much higher priced, just like it was after the last verison of the AWB.

Buying one now, at the going price, is a way to avoid paying a much higher price down the road even a little.
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SteveM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-08 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #5
16. Assuming my "concession" is God-like truth all can rely upon...
Actually, I have a little wishful thinking thrown in. Here's why I don't think an AWB will make it to the House floor:
(1) Some 15,000,000 civilians own weapons in the category of semi-auto carbines (what the so-called "assault weapon" really is);
(2) Semi-auto carbines are now the largest-selling rifle in the U.S. (save for the .22 rim fire);
(3) Semi-auto carbines are being re-configured to hunting weapons because of superior ergonomics and recoil and fine accuracy.

In short, the "assault weapons" train has long pulled out of the station for the gun-controllers to go chasing after it.

I hope I am right about all this; if not, the hysterical among us will remind me.

BTW, there is another motivation for purchasing these weapons, though I am not moved by it. That is, the slow rise in the violent crime rate since about 2005. This crime rate is notable in that "home invasions" seem to be glamorized most by the media. Here, gangs of crims, sometimes armed with semi-auto carbines, burst into a house, often bent on doing harm. Many of the victims of these crimes are other criminals who might have money/drugs and guns; hence the invader's fire power. A range officer at a Lockhart, Texas shooting range contended last summer that the upsurge in concealed-carry and gun purchases was not due to Obama's candidacy so much as to the fear of increasing violent crime.
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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-08 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. We Would Seem, Sir, To Think Alike In Many Regards On This Matter
The constituency is a large one, and cares much more. A hefty proportion of the Democratic majority at present, particularly newer members, are from locales where banning such weapons would be unpopular with an energetic portion of the citizenry.

There is little question the weapons are good hunting arms: shooting men and deer are pretty similar problems. There is a long tradition of ex-military arms becoming hunting rifles.

On your last point, we are also in agreement mostly, though a couple of points seem worth reinforcing. The gist of the problem you refer to is criminal on criminal criminality, so to speak, and does undercut somewhat the common argument that this sort of weapon is seldom used in crimes, which has been a staple of the debate on the matter from the N.R.A. side for years. Unless one supposes that most of the people turning up at gun stores these days to purchase these items are also cooking meth or growing reefer on the side, they are not at any great risk of such attack. Indeed, the people who clamor most about 'needing weapons to defend themselves' are at very little risk of criminal violence.
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SteveM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #20
51. It's a rendition of "All AK All the time:"
I think the amount of crime committed by criminals on other criminals is significant, but the use of semi-auto carbines is rather low. But when the weapon does show up, the MSM misses no opportunity in publicizing the event and blowing it up way out of proportion to its significance. We can all become "victims" to this ocher journalism.

Just a few days ago, a home invasion occurred in NE Austin, Tx (an area known for violent crime). Two "poker playing" individuals in the place invaded suffered gun shot wounds (but will survive), and the invaders were chased down by APD until the crew baled. One of the crims opened up with an AK clone (he also wore some kind of body protection). Officers returned fired and the outlaw was killed on the spot. On the nightly news, Chief Acevedo, for his 8-second portion, said: "one of the most dangerous weapons in the world" with regards the AK.

Nothing was forthcoming about how many home invasions use semi-auto carbines (as opposed to any number of semi-auto pistols, revolvers, etc.), or how many times the weapon is used in ANY crime. But a picture is worth a thousand words.

I wonder what the coverage/statements would have been in the dead perpetrator had used a Taurus 9mm.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #51
53. Why do some DUers fail to understand the bias of the msm in using AK-47 with its obvious link to
terrorists as maliciously propagated by the entertainment industry which portrays the bad guys with AK-47s ?

benEzra and other pro-RKBA Dems have done an excellent job of trying to educate DUers about "assault weapons" but as long as we are banished to DU's Guns-Fortress it seems like an impossible job of educating the anti-gun group about the interests of 80+ million gun-owners.

One should not forget that for every gun-owner, there is perhaps at least one "non gun-owner" who is protected by guns so the size of the pro-RKBA electorate could be 160+ million out of an electorate of over 200+ million.

Obama had 66+ million votes versus McCain with 58+ million votes.

Would any intelligent presidential candidate alienate perhaps 160+ million voters in an electorate of 200+ million?

The answer is "NO" and that's why Obama tried very hard to convince people he would not take their rifles, shotguns, and handguns.

I wish Obama would follow his own advice and get in the face of all his anti-gun supporters:
"I need you to go out and talk to your friends and talk to your neighbors. I want you to talk to them whether they are independent or whether they are Republican. I want you to argue with them and get in their face," he said.

"And if they tell you that, 'Well, we're not sure where he stands on guns.' I want you to say, 'He believes in the Second Amendment.' If they tell you, 'Well, he's going to raise your taxes,' you say, 'No, he's not, he's going lower them.' You are my ambassadors. You guys are the ones who can make the case."

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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-08 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #51
54. To Be Fair, Sir
Police officers have every right not to like being shot at with weapons of potentially greater accuracy and striking power than they usually encounter. It is undeniable that a prevalence of firearms in private hands presents problems to police doing their work. This difficulty is of greater scope than just firearms in the hands of 'criminals'. Persons who are normally law abiding, or who at least have never been arrested, who in some emotional heat and foolishness do something that brings them into official contact with police can be more dangerous, and much less predictable, than experienced criminals who know the score and ropes.
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Tejas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-08 07:39 AM
Response to Reply #54
59. Your "fair" is loaded with "fallacy" and "hype"
Edited on Sun Nov-16-08 07:39 AM by Tejas
Police officers have every right not to like being shot at with weapons of potentially greater accuracy and striking power than they usually encounter.

The entire population of this country should suffer restrictions based on your perception that LEO's "potentially" run the chance of being on the short end of the stick? That's right out of Chief Timoney's playbook.
Maybe gyms and healthy food should be banned so LEO's don't have to deal with trying to cuff someone stronger or in better shape than them. Or fast cars, no use in LEO's being outran in a chase eh?




It is undeniable that a prevalence of firearms in private hands presents problems to police doing their work.

There it is, the age-old hint of projection, the good old reliable "WHAT-IF".




Ah yes, color me surprised:

This difficulty is of greater scope than just firearms in the hands of 'criminals'. Persons who are normally law abiding, or who at least have never been arrested, who in some emotional heat and foolishness do something that brings them into official contact with police can be more dangerous, and much less predictable, than experienced criminals who know the score and ropes.

Yep, the fear of law-abiding citizens going postal. Grasp much for reasoning do you? Any stats to put your daydreams into perspective?

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newtothegame Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #54
62. Thank you, Sir, for all your replies, Sir. Interesting reading, Sir. n/t
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SteveM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #54
63. Actually, they have every right not to be shot at by ANY weapon...
Edited on Tue Nov-18-08 02:15 PM by SteveM
I think it is a fool's errand to attempt a solution to prevent being outgunned. Throughout the history of policing in this country there has always been complaint that the criminals are perpetually ahead in the arms race. The .38 Special was an outgrowth of complaints that the "original" .38 was too weak; similarly, the .357 magnum was in part an outgrowth of the .38 Special being too weak (the weapon was also developed as a practical hunting handgun). As a result of gangsters using sub-machine guns (even BARs) during the Prohibition era, the F.B.I. trained their officers in the use of sub-machine guns (famously used by agents to kill Ma Barker in Lake Weir, Florida). And of course the University of Texas "Tower" shooting wherein Chas. Whitman killed many students prompted more talk about arming the police better (LEOs had to rely on suppression fire from folks who used their deer rifles to keep Whitman down). There are many more instances of this kind of thing.

I find it interesting that today most police, including the F.B.I., don't go around carrying full-auto weapons or even semi-auto rifles (though many are authorized to use these). This says something about the likelihood of LEO encountering "weapons of potentially greater accuracy and striking power." Further, police usually have ready access to "matching" guns, often in car trunks.

I believe the F.B.I. reports that rifles of ALL types account for less than 3% homicides, and the semi-auto carbine (erroneously labeled "assault weapon" or even "assault rifle") is just one type in that category. I further believe that few police are killed by such weapons.

Certainly, police work is dangerous. But I don't think the comparatively few casualties suffered by LEO mean that some kind of doomed-to-failure prohibitionist scheme or the subterfuge of regulation (when prohibition is the goal) is justified, esp. given Second Amendment protections. Self-defense begins with the individual and, I believe, constitutes the main bulwark against truly high violent crime rates.
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #54
66. And on that note you are clearly wrong.
I don't know of a single policeman opposed to concealed carry permit laws and I know several hundred. AK-47s aren't known for their accuracy.

David
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Tejas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-08 07:51 AM
Response to Reply #20
60. It's getting deep in here
Unless one supposes that most of the people turning up at gun stores these days to purchase these items are also cooking meth or growing reefer on the side, they are not at any great risk of such attack. Indeed, the people who clamor most about 'needing weapons to defend themselves' are at very little risk of criminal violence.


Criminals are the only ones that need "assault weapons". Everyone else, that's you and me, can go merrily about our daily lives. Got it, thanks.




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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-08 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #1
27. Tens of millions of us were burned by the 1994 Feinstein law...
Edited on Thu Nov-13-08 09:19 PM by benEzra
and are not so naive as to think such idiocy could not happen again, however unlikely it may be.

Small-caliber non-automatic rifles with modern styling (aka "assault weapons") are the most popular civilian target rifles and defensive carbines in the United States, and as I have pointed out elsewhere, more Americans own them than hunt. Considering that AWB proposals on the table would outlaw new rifles, replacement magazines, and spare parts, it is not "hysterical" to hedge one's bets.

I do plan to go ahead and thread the muzzle of my SAR-1 and install a flash suppressor, just in case an AWB gets any traction.
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cabluedem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #27
68. What good would that do you? Breaking the law would only land you in jail, yes?
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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-14-08 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #1
38. Hysteria?
It is hard to regard these purchases as anything but an exercise in mass hysteria.

Since renewal of the assault weapon ban is currently a part of the Democratic Party Platform, it seems reasonable to expect the Democratic-majority congress and president to do just that.

Thus, if you want an assault rifle, now is the time to buy it, as you may not be able to do so soon.

If I had the disposable income I would buy one, too. Odds are it will increase in value during the ban.

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Hangingon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-08 05:26 PM
Response to Original message
8. I heard the same on local tv coverage last night.
Edited on Thu Nov-13-08 05:27 PM by Hangingon
The MSM is not willing to learn the definitions. The mediocrity and superficiality is pitiful.
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AlinPA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-08 05:48 PM
Response to Original message
13. I wonder what these people are going to do with all the additional guns they are buying.
I've heard a few things like "make a profit if the prices go up", "keep them in case they are hard to get later", "protect themselves against the government", "protect themselves against their liberal neighbors", and even worse in reference to Obama.
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SteveM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-08 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. They needn't worry about this "liberal neighbor." My arsenal is locked up (nt)
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-08 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-08 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Welcome to DU. Hope you are a pro-RKBA Democrat and will join in the spirited debate where we
Dems defend our natural, inherent, inalienable/unalienable right to keep and bear arms for defense of self and state as acknowledged by the Second Amendment.

Government is obligated to protect every enumerated right and un-enumerated rights protected by the Ninth Amendment.

We Dems will control Congress and the White House next January and 80+ million gun-owners wonder if we are the party of gun-grabbers that they voted out of power in the 1990s or as a party we now recognize that we are obligated under the Constitution to protect all rights.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-08 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #19
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cabluedem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #13
67. I am not worried. One one call to the police and the problem is solved.
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friendly_iconoclast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-08 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #67
69. Yeah, they'll clean up those guns like they've cleaned up meth and heroin!
Wait...
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-08 02:30 AM
Response to Reply #67
70. A we finally see you without all that makeup.
I'd say nice try but it was pretty obvious.

David
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DU GrovelBot  Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-14-08 08:41 AM
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