Lautenberg, Reed, Feinstein to introduce bill to mandate background checks at gun shows

[derby378]

Sens. Frank R. Lautenberg (D-NJ), Jack Reed (D-RI) and Dianne Feinstein (D-CA) today joined Paul Helmke, President of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence and victims and family members of the Virginia Tech tragedy, to introduce legislation to close the nation’s "gun show loophole." The bill introduction follows the tenth anniversary of the Columbine tragedy and the second anniversary of the tragedy at Virginia Tech this week. The legislation is cosponsored by Sens. Dick Durbin (D-IL), Sheldon Whitehouse (D-RI), Charles Schumer (D-NY), John Kerry (D-MA), Ted Kennedy (D-MA), Carl Levin (D-MI), Ben Cardin (D-MD) and Kirsten Gillibrand (D-NY) and Robert Menendez (D-NJ).

http://lautenberg.senate.gov/newsroom/record.cfm?id=311723&

The bill has not yet been introduced as far as I'm aware, but it's expected to look a lot like this:

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=110_cong_bills&docid=f:s2577is.txt.pdf

[w4rma]

1. Jeeze. (nt)

[Junkdrawer]

2. Ten years and the loophole remains...

A testament to the power of the NRA.

[Raskolnik]

7. What do you think the "loophole" is?

The same rules apply to dealers, and the same rules apply to individual private sales.

[rl6214]

9. there is NO gunshow loophole

Background checks are mandated for any dealer selling at a gunshow. Private sellers are not mandated to do background checks ANYWHERE.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

42. A testament to the misinformation of the VPC.

[Hoopla Phil]

3. So would this bill effectively ban ALL private sales? Or just the

private sales at gun shows? If the latter is the case then how is "gun show" defined? It could simply be a matter of changing the terms to "sportsman's bizarre".

[slackmaster]

5. "Gun show" would be defined as an event where 50 or more firearms are offered for sale

According to Lautenberg's Web site.

The bill has to have something resembling a justification for exercise of the federal government's power under the Interstate Commerce clause of the Constitution, otherwise it wouldn't stand a chance of being upheld in court.

[L0oniX]

6. Indeed ...it's a state thing. Florida has mandatory background checks at gun shows.

[Hoopla Phil]

11. So how would this affect a C&R holder that gets a table at a funshow?

[rl6214]

13. A C & R is licensed to purchase

Not to sell so I would think they would included them as a private seller.

[Hoopla Phil]

14. Incorrect. From the BATFE web site:

_________________________________________
(G1) Is there a specific license which permits a collector to acquire firearms in interstate commerce?

Yes. A person may obtain a collector's license. However, this license applies only to transactions in curio or relic firearms.

<18 U.S.C. 923(b), 27 CFR 478.41(c), (d), 478.50(b) and 478.93>

(G2) Does a collector's license afford any privileges to the licensee with respect to acquiring or disposing of firearms other than curios or relics in interstate or foreign commerce?

No. A licensed collector has the same status under the GCA as a non-licensee except for transactions in curio or relic firearms.

<27 CFR 478.93>
___________________________________________

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#g1

[Hoopla Phil]

15. Sorry, one of those quotes was the wrong one. Here it is

(G7) Are licensed collectors required to comply with the requirements that written notification be given to handgun transferees and signs be posted on juvenile handgun possession?

The requirement that written notification concerning juvenile handgun possession be given by licensees to a non-licensee to whom a handgun is delivered applies to curio or relic handguns transferred by licensed collectors. However, the sign posting requirement does not apply to licensed collectors.

<18 U.S.C. 922(x), 27 CFR 478.103>

[slackmaster]

23. We're licensed to acquire and dispose of C&Rs through interstate commerce

For the purpose of building a gun collection, but not to use NICS or conduct a business.

[rl6214]

24. this is what I was trying to say

And as a C & R you can sell to cull your collection, not to become a dealer in curios and relics.

[slackmaster]

22. C&R FFL holders ("crufflers") cannot use NICS, so we'd be shut out

Back to selling C&R firearms in back alleys and church parking lots.

[Hoopla Phil]

17. Here is an interesting tid bit from the BATFE web site that may exempt C&Rs

(G5) Are licensed collectors required to execute ATF Form 4473 for transactions in curio or relic firearms?

No. However, licensed collectors are required to keep a "bound book" record.


http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#g1

[rl6214]

25. Again this is true but

you cannot conduct a business. You can buy and sell but only to dispose of weapons you no longer want. You can't become a dealer in c&r's.

[Hoopla Phil]

28. That is correct. Buy and sell is OK. But don't make a business out of it.

It is sometimes a C&Rs practice to mail order three of the same thing and sell the two that he/she doesn't like. I've seen a letter somewhere posted on a gun forum somewhere where the ATF said that that was OK to do.

[rl6214]

39. I have don that myself

[slackmaster]

4. Two predictable unintended consequences of the proposed law

1. A proliferation of small events that don't quite meet the criterion of 50 firearms offered for sale,

2. An increase in private sales among people who meet through newspaper classified ads, etc.

At least at a large organized event it is possible for law enforcement to monitor transactions and see who is coming and going.

[Endangered Specie]

45. Or, people meeting at a gun show...

then conducting business in the parking lot of the adjacent Wal-Mart.

[Raskolnik]

8. Thank goodness. Someone is finally trying to put an end to the avalanche of crimes

committed with guns purchased from private sellers at gun shows.

[rl6214]

12. Do you have any statistics

about the "avalanche of crimes committed with guns purchased from private sellers at gun shows"?
Or is this just a thrown out there in reaction to Brady campaign statements.

[Raskolnik]

32. ((I was being sarcastic))

[rl6214]

40. My bad

must have been tired and didn't see the sarcasm

[Raskolnik]

43. No worries

The way some people talk about the *horrors* of gun shows, I don't blame you.

[east texas lib]

31. Good one!

:thumbsup:

[1]

10. pfffttt... toothless legislation that i support 100%.

a non-licensed seller could offer a weapon at a gun show of any size and then just complete the sale, away from the gun show, as a private sale. out in the parking lot, for example.

but on the plus side, this legislation would remove the term "gun show loophole" from our vocabulary.

that in itself would be worth it.

[frebrd]

19. Exactly! Let them get the "gun show loophole" obsession......

out of their systems.

:)

[X_Digger]

16. Unconstitutional (for the fed)..

Oh wait, LOL!!

They're asserting..

(3) firearms and ammunition that are exhibited or offered for sale or exchange at gun shows, flea markets, and other organized events move easily in and substantially affect interstate commerce;

(4) in fact, even before a firearm is exhibited or offered for sale or exchange at a gun show, flea market, or other organized event, the gun, its component parts, ammunition, and the raw materials from which it is manufactured have moved in interstate commerce;

A private sale between two residents is apparently now 'interstate' commerce. Next they'll say that because the shoes they wear crossed state lines, and the car they drove to the show in has components made in other states..

[Hoopla Phil]

18. Yep, and that is the PERVERTED Interstate Commerce Clause we currently have.

[X_Digger]

20. cripes, it gets worse..

(a) REGISTRATION OF GUN SHOW PROMOTERS.—
<snip>
(1)registers with the Attorney General in accordance with regulations promulgated by the Attorney General; and
(2) pays a registration fee, in an amount determined by the Attorney General.
<snip>
(1) before commencement of the gun show, verifies the identity of each gun show vendor participating in the gun show by examining a valid identification document (as defined in section 1028(d)(3)) of the vendor containing a photograph of the vendor;
(2) before commencement of the gun show, requires each gun show vendor to sign—
(A) a ledger with identifying information concerning the vendor; and
(B) a notice advising the vendor of the obligations of the vendor under this chapter;
(3) notifies each person who attends the gun show of the requirements of this chapter, in accordance with such regulations as the Attorney General shall prescribe; and
(4)maintains a copy of the records described in paragraphs (1) and (2) at the permanent place of business of the gun show promoter for such period of time and in such form as the Attorney General shall require by regulation.
<snip>
(5) if the licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer assists a person other than a licensee in transferring, at 1 time or during any 5 consecutive business days, 2 or more pistols or revolvers, or any combination of pistols and revolvers totaling 2 or more, to the same nonlicensed person, in addition to the reports required under paragraph
(4), prepare a report of the multiple transfers, which report shall be—
<snip>
RECORDS OF LICENSEE TRANSFERS.
—If any part of a firearm transaction takes place at a gun show, each licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, and licensed dealer who transfers 1 or more firearms to a person who is not licensed under this chapter shall, not later than 10 days after the date on which the transfer occurs, submit to the Attorney General a report of the transfer, which report—

[Hoopla Phil]

21. This is NOT a closing of a non existent "loop hole" It will regulate them out of existence!!

But maybe that's the idea.

[jody]

26. Does that mean sex between consenting unmarried adults is interstate sex even though performed

intrastate and as such prosecutable under the Mann Act?

[X_Digger]

27. Only if the guy stands in one state and reeeeaches his... n/t :)

[jody]

29. But "A private sale between two residents is apparently now 'interstate' commerce." What if one or

both consenting adults were born in other states, wouldn't that be interstate sex?

[X_Digger]

30. True, true.

The perversion (no pun intended) of the interstate commerce clause makes my blood boil.

eta: not just this, but also the medical MJ decision that also overstepped.

[virginia mountainman]

33. A few thoughts....

This is the FACTS of the matter....

1. It does mostly nothing, that isn't already done....

2. It is nothing more than feel good legislation...

3. It's intent is to discourage gun shows,

4. All the headliners have a "D" Beside their name..

5. It will reassure those that are hording ammo and guns, that THEY where right all along..and convince others that they should jump in to the buying binge too.

6. We will be beaten over the head with it at the polls

7. Many Democrats in congress will NEVER support it..

8. It will start a shit storm in the Congress, and Senate, and cause instant gridlock, might as well toss the agenda out the window, once this hits the floor, all bets are off, and it will be War.

9. It Reinforces the "Democrats want to take your guns" meam..

10. Most of the headliners of the legislation, are leftovers from the "early, heady days of gun control, before we got kicked out of congress for fucking with the Constitution.

Remember, Gun Control, has been loosing public support for many years, and the US Congress and Senate reflect this change. The NRA, and the MULTITUDE of groups like them, are chomping at the bit, and are more than ready for some "fresh meat" They have been on a hair trigger since Obama, HRC, and Holders started talking about banning guns, and they KNOW the voters back them (the gun rights supporters)up, they KNOW the facts back them up, they KNOW, that the spirit of founding fathers is solidly behind them and most importantly most of the congress knows it too.

This Corner of the Civil Rights world, is heavily manned,is highly active, highly motivated, highly connected, highly engaged and willing to write letters, make calls and have some "personal visits" and "do the leg work" to get their point across, and most of all they learned the lesson from the way the 1994 Assault Weapon ban was passed, TAKE NOTHING FOR GRANTED....

So go ahead......Do Republican Sara Brady's bidding, and go Poke the Bear............Just don't blame us down here in the Gungeon, when all hell breaks loose, after all....we told you so...

[biermeister]

35. you said it brother!

[jody]

36. 10X reply, facts that the gun-grabber minority on DU ignore and if they let Feinstein and the Scary

Brady Bunch et al keep threatening Second Amendment rights such that voters associate their efforts with the Democratic Party, then we could easily lose seats in congress in 2010.

[Iktomiwicasa]

41. Never said better

I don't drink, but I'd buy you a beer :toast:

[dashrif]

34. Wow

:popcorn:

My state is trying to pass a 10th resolution, now the second this hits the floor if it does I bet they get the resolution passed and challenge the crap out of this

My state has an F from the Brady Bunch

Now is the fed going to regulate used cars, flea markets, swap meets and farm auctions because someone may take an used\old item across state lines?

[derby378]

37. Introduced yesterday on the Senate floor as S.843

No link to the text yet.

[biermeister]

38. here are the sponsor/cosponsors

Sen. Frank Lautenberg
Cosponsors
Sen. Richard Durbin
Sen. Carl Levin
Sen. John Kerry
Sen. Edward Kennedy
Sen. Dianne Feinstein
Sen. Charles Schumer
Sen. Sheldon Whitehouse
Sen. Robert Menéndez
Sen. John Reed
Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand
Sen. Benjamin Cardin

[DonP]

47. So much for Gillibrand's Gun Friendly credentials

She got herself suckered into showing the NYC crowd how "tough" she can be on gun control pretty quick.

Then I'm bettin' the NYC people will dump her when the primary rolls around no matter what she does about guns. There is no way in hell they would vote for an upstate person versus one of their own.

[X_Digger]

48. anyone have the text yet?

S.843 is a 2006 bill on autism..

[derby378]

49. Here it is

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills&docid=f:s843is.txt.pdf

It's almost word-for-word identical to S 2577 from the 110th Congress. No changes at all in the provisions, restrictions, penalties, etc. - at least, not as far as I can tell.

[biermeister]

51. thanks

[X_Digger]

52. Yup, looks like a copy/paste. thx. n/t

[krispos42]

44. Cho bought his guns legally. Both of them

Harris and Klebold did a straw purchase of three of their guns and bought their 4th gun from a friend.



Closing the so-called "loophole" would not have affected either of those tragedies.

[Endangered Specie]

46. Ironic considering how the Columbine and V. Tech shooters obtained their guns:

V. Tech: FFL Dealer w/ background check, despite being legally ineligible to own a gun.
Columbine: Straw Purchase, Underage, and violated the NFA with the short barrelled shotugn. Hat Trick.(idiot who committed the straw purchase was not charged)

[Taitertots]

50. We could close the loophole

By having a booth at gun shows that offers free background checks for private transfers.