Why must the people have access to arms?

[Francis Marion]

Liberty has lost a great man and a champion this week.

Marek Edelman was the last known survivor of the Warsaw Ghetto uprising. As it happened, the Jews in Warsaw began armed resistance to their organized murder on April 19, 1943; the same date in history that Lexington farmers stood in defense of Liberty.

Well done, sir; may you rest in peace, and may your example never be forgotten.

May free people always have arms, and never again suffer the outrages that disarmed people must.

'"When you cannot defend freedom through peaceful means, you have to use arms to fight Nazism, dictatorship, chauvinism," Edelman said in an 2008 interview with The Associated Press in his apartment in the central city of Lodz, which was filled with portraits of Jews and of scenes reminiscent of the Holocaust.'

quote above from
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091002/ap_on_re_eu/eu_poland_obit_edelman

[endless october]

1. i'm pro-second amendment.

and unlike the neoconservatives, i also support the rest of the Bill of Rights.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Common Sense Party]

3. Define "gun loon".

[Name removed]

5. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[shadowrider]

4. So you think

The only people who support, or who should support, the 2nd Amendment are conservatives?

I have a sign on the window next to the front door that says, "This house is protected by Smith and Wesson." Anyone who doubts that is welcome to come through the front door at 2 a.m. to see for themselves whether or not it's true. (HINT: I wouldn't try it if I were you).

[Treo]

45. They're also welcom to wait till you're gone and rob your house

I'd lose the sign

[shadowrider]

53. Nope

Even with the sign and no cars in the drive, the bad guy has no idea if anyone is there.

[Treo]

54. Ok

Your house your rules.

[shadowrider]

55. :)

[bbinacan]

6. Why must you invade DU?

:puke:

[Hepburn]

11. Welcome to my IGNORE list ~~

~~click.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

58. Ignore, the last bastion of the small minded.

[Euromutt]

60. And sometimes the exhasperated

I've put a couple of people on ignore for the good of my blood pressure, but that was aftertrying to engage them, not instead of.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

7. There is a significant percentage of Democrats who support the RKBA

Possession of personal weapons is a progressive value.

[divideandconquer]

9. US has most guns of any industrialized country, so this should be a peaceful place

Gun nuts are nothing but American Taliban, same backwards neoCON thinking.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

12. Define your terms, since it is nothing but a slur. Its use in context would have you slamming your

fellow DUers and Democratic party members? If that is really your intent? If so, what do you like on your pizza?

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

23. I gather you share the racist roots of gun control?

[divideandconquer]

65. Gun control is so racist that the NAACP, the Congressional Black Caucus, Oprah, are for it

:crazy:<http://www.nrablacklist.com/>

[Treo]

67. And rush Limbaugh stated on the air that drug addicts should be killed

What's your point?

[PavePusher]

68. Getting the oppressed to disarm themselves...

Now THAT is truely Machiavellian...

Also pretty damn sickening.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

69. Those they have are always willing to stop those who have not

Gun control in this country came from the South as a means to keep freed slaves disarmed and the Klan safe. In NYC it came from the wealthy not wanting the workers to be able to defend themselves against strike breakers and the Pinkerton. Think of the movie Gang of New York. Classic racist and classist roots.

Take a modern day view. Who live in the worst neighborhoods with no way to defend themselves? Mostly the poor and minorities. You must be glad to stand with their oppressors.

[Francis Marion]

24. No, they don't

Because the people you disparage as 'gun nuts' come from all over the political map and they, and their sons, daughters, dads, moms and cousins are fighting proudly in uniform as we speak. You don't give the people much credit.

[AtheistCrusader]

16. Source?

Also, do you mean the most individual firearms, firearms per capita, per household, what? Switzerland has us soundly beat on 2, and 3, and possibly Sweden as well. Just a couple off the top of my head.

Also, the US is a pretty peaceful place. Does it bother you that people like me are willing and able to enforce that peace in the immediate vicinity?

[proteus_lives]

17. Wrong.

I'm a "gun nut" and I'm also a liberal Democrat.

Gun-ownership is a liberal/progressive value!

[krispos42]

71. We also have a crappy mental-health system

insane drug policy, and ludacris economic policy. Frankly, it's a wonder our homicide rate isn't higher.

[Hepburn]

14. LOL....

....having guns to support a rebellion against the current government is your idea of progressive?

:rofl:

Wow...another addition to my IGNORE list....click.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

19. Does the stupid burn you much?

[Hepburn]

25. No, teh stupid from you is not getting through my computer...

....duh...

[ProgressiveProfessor]

28. So much for your use of the ignore list

What is with the drama queens these days...

[Hepburn]

33. I was going to click the IGNORE and HIDE THREAD but you became too amusing....

...and wanna talk Drama Queen? Someone disagrees with your love of guns and you act like someone is trying to castrate you.

Grow up for pity sake...:eyes:

[ProgressiveProfessor]

38. Still waiting for you to state what a gun loon is in your world

I live out in the twigs (that is well past the sticks). Out here, guns are tools and the loons are the ones who come out here without them, especially in snake season. Its not the wild west, we don't shoot at each other, but they are necessary. Recently a neighbor had one of their dogs bit by a rattlesnake, inside their garage. The dog survived (it wasn't a Mohave Green) the snake was dispatched with a 44.mag shot shell by one of their daughters.

Because we are out in the twigs, we are notionally 30 minutes response time from the nearest cop shop (county sheriff in our case). If there is a problem, be it an animal or a person we are on our own. Again, firearms are tools here, not objects of worship.

Gun control has clear racist roots which continue today. It is also classist in its impact, especially in NYC, Chicago, Washington DC and other places with draconian rules. In those situations those with money can get firearms, the poor can not. Why so called liberal and progressives support such repression is beyond me. Private firearm ownership is indeed a progressive value.

[shadowrider]

42. Have you heard

About the anti-second state senator from NC who has championed draconian gun laws, yet when someone broke into his house back in August, he pulled out HIS gun to defend himself?

http://www2.timesdispatch.com/rtd/news/national/article/74-year-old_n.c._state_senator_shoots_wounds_intruder_at_his_home/287987/P10/

[ProgressiveProfessor]

48. Typical of the wealthy and powerful. The Carl Rowan shooting was much like the one you linked to

Two sets of laws, one for pols, celebrities, and the elite, the other for the rest of us. Rowan was a anti gun bigot and his hypocrisy was ignored by his MSM playmates. He got his and to hell with everyone else, including his fellow African Americans.

[Treo]

47. 40 posts before a penis reference. NT

[ProgressiveProfessor]

49. Surprised she took so long...given that she has admitted being bored and is trolling

[Treo]

46. Who here is supporting a rebellion? NT

[frebrd]

8. Well, I'm a firearms owner and......

a Second Amendment supporter, so I guess that makes me a "Gun Loon", and I've been here since 2002.

:hi:

[Hepburn]

13. Are you posting about how everyone should be armed because of...

...a rebellion?

I have not seen that from you.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

22. No one is, and what does that have to do with personal possesion of firearms?

[Hepburn]

26. Reading is Fundamental ~~

~~ try again.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

39. I do it well in multiple languages...your hate just keeps radiating through all your posts

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

59. Then a link and a quote will be easy to provide.

[proteus_lives]

15. Nah, FR's for you.

And all other so-called liberals and progressives who want to strip Americans of their rights.

[Hepburn]

27. What's your motto?

Guns don't kill children ~~ children kill children?

[imdjh]

56. Satanic cults kill children.

[proteus_lives]

61. What's your motto?

I'm going to ban things that scare me?

[Artie Bucco]

20. Sorry ma'am

Glad to see you live in a very upscale area. I wish I had the money and the privilege to ride a bike to a Whole Food's like you surely do. But unfortunatly I don't; I live in a fairly rough area of Dallas, Texas. My house has been broken into twice. Practically everyone in my neighborhood is black or Mexican yet they own guns; the typical freeper demographic no doubt.


Don't let the fact that I own a gun make you think that I am not a member of the left I will always be a member of the left and I will always consider myself a Democratic socialist. I know I don't fall in the typical gun owner demographic of what you expect with me being Mexican ( an immigrant to boot), working a unionized job (UPS), going to college, listening to indie music and even getting told I look like a hipster. I also don't see myself supporting the idea of gun control since it has it's roots in suppressing minorities, unions and immigrants.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Artie Bucco]

31. Way to read between the lines

I said I am Mexican myself.

[Hepburn]

32. And I have a Mexican acquaintance who is the most bigotted person...

against other Mexicans I have ever known.

Your point?

[Artie Bucco]

34. My point was

That not all of the people who are gun owners are the freeper demographic; I know exactly how many of these people vote and where they stand politically.

[Hepburn]

35. You know how many people of a specific ilk vote?

Now there's an accomplishment ~~ just how do you ascertain what is on a secrete ballot?

[spin]

37. No, not all gun owners are freepers...

many are Democrats with views that would never be allowed on FreeRepublic.

You will find many examples here on DU. They post regularly in the Gungeon.

The second amendment is a very liberal and progressive idea. Combined with the 14th Amendment, it allows people of all races the right to own firearms.

Many Democrats don't realize that the basic driving force behind the gun control movement is to make sure that the lower classes are disarmed. To sum gun control up in a simple easy to understand statement, "We can't allow THOSE people to own firearms."

The rich and powerful will always be allowed the privilege. Just take New York City as an example.

Still, the number of permits handed out to people who keep guns in their home has plunged under Mr. Bloomberg. In 2000, 24,031 permits were given out for household pistols, compared to 14,985 this year.

A spokesman for the National Rifle Association, Andrew Arulanandam, said the drop in permits is a reflection of the city's penchant for giving only wealthy New Yorkers gun permits.

"If you're a plain Joe or Jane, you're out of luck, and they're the people who really need protection," he said.
Mr. Browne said allegations that wealthy New Yorkers get preferential treatment for permits are flatly untrue.

Through a Freedom of Information Law request, The New York Sun received an official list of New Yorkers who have gun permits. The list includes Donald Trump,

Donald Trump Jr., Robert DeNiro, and Ronald Lauder, among others.
http://www.nysun.com/new-york/concealed-pistols-permits-drop-in-city/61496/

[ProgressiveProfessor]

41. You seem to share your acquaintance's penchant for hate...only its liberal

gun owners.

[divideandconquer]

64. Some deterrent those guns, y'all are armed and still get broken into

Must not work! Hell, guns are one of the most stolen items out there.

[Treo]

66. Care to cite that? NT

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[friendly_iconoclast]

40. You're not the first moralizing, self-appointed zampolit here in the Guns forum.

However, the most recent previous one was far more eloquent than you.

[gorfle]

44. Many pro-firearm folks are Democratic.

Many pro-firearm folks are pro-Democratic and believe in Progressive ideals. For example, I oppose the war in Iraq and Afghanistan. I oppose the erosions of civil liberties started under the Bush administration such as the suspension of habeus corpus, extraordinary renditions, torture, and pervasive domestic surveillance. I oppose corporate welfare and the influence corporations (like health insurance corporations!) wield in Congress. I support single-payer, public option health care. I am pro-choice, and pro-gay-marriage.

I also strongly believe in the right to keep and bear arms as the last recourse against tyranny and oppression. I believe this was the intent of our founders and I believe their fears of tyranny are as valid today as they were 200-plus years ago. I also believe in people being allowed to take personal responsibility for their safety and the safety of their family, loved ones, and property by keeping firearms in their homes.

I vote Democrat.

[proteus_lives]

18. What a great man.

If he had been an American, he'd have been a RKBA Democrat.

People who doubt the need for the 2nd Amendment should read about him.

[spin]

30. Marek Edelman was a true hero...

All too often we label sports stars as heroes for their great ability. It is true that they risk injury and sometimes death when they step on the field of play. But to me, the real heroes are the soldiers, police, firemen and the average citizens who place their life in danger for little or no reward.

Marek Edelman not only was heroic in just one incident but devoted his life to fighting for freedom.

Most of Edelman's adult life was dedicated to the defense of human life, dignity and freedom. He fought the Nazis in the doomed Warsaw ghetto revolt and later in the Warsaw city Uprising. And then for decades he fought communism in Poland.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091002/ap_on_re_eu/eu_poland_obit_edelman


After the war he remained in Poland and became a noted cardiologist. From early 1970s onwards he collaborated with the Workers' Defence Committee and other political groups opposing the communist regime of Poland. A member of the Solidarity, he took part in the Polish Round Table Talks of 1989. Following the peaceful transformations of 1989 he was a member of various centrist parties. He also authored numerous books documenting the history of war-time resistance against the German occupation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marek_Edelman

He lived a long life and lived it bravely. May he rest in peace and if there is a reward in the afterlife, may he gain it.

Welcome to DU

Thanks for the post.

[friendly_iconoclast]

43. Mr. Edelman was a great human being. A mensch in the fullest sense of the word.

There was a pretty good movie made a few years back about the Warsaw Uprising. I have the DVD, and would recommend it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uprising_(film)

"Great things are not achieved by reasonable people"

[benEzra]

51. That movie was excellent. (n/t)

[Treo]

50. My favorite statistic:

Time the entire Polish army held off the Nazis before giving up: 2 weeks

Time the small number of minimally-armed untrained starving persecuted Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto held off the Nazis: Almost a month- and they never gave up!

[Euromutt]

63. In fairness, the force ratios were a little different

In 1939, the Polish army had to face off against 60 German divisions, before being butt-fucked by another 33 Soviet divisions. By contrast, the ZZW and ZOB faced an average of 2,080 German reservists and quisling police auxiliaries from Poland, Ukraine and the Baltic republics.

Admittedly, the Polish army was a lot bigger (~950,000) than the ZZW and ZOB combined (350-1,000 fighters on any given day), but the Jews were fighting an urban guerrilla war.

[Piwi2009]

52. Do anti- gun rights people resonate to the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising?

On what basis, I wonder. Because it's a case of defenseless people having some firepower on their side.
***

On another note, I agree, our soldiers and police are noble, to be willing to take a bullet on our behalf. They're brave and courageous too. But who I think is REALLY brave--convenience store clerks. Unlike the police, they don't have patrol cars, radio communications, and powerful weapons and they gotta face the criminal element pretty much alone. Geez I hope they have a gun under the counter.

[GreenStormCloud]

57. Most store chains have a "no guns" policy.

However, when I worked as a C-store clerk, alone, 11PM-7AM shift, I had a Kel-Tec P3AT in my trousers pocket. After a few months I quit the job, and they were robbed about two weeks later.

[paulsby]

73. this is true

in many areas (high crime areas) convenience store clerks are significantly more likely to be shot and WAY more likely to be killed if shot (because they don't wear protective vests) than cops

one distinction is that cops (and our military forces) will often run TOWARDS a dangerous situation, whereas a clerk doesn't. the situation may very well come to them, but they don't take an overt act towards the danger. the latter is generally seen as heroic - having a choice, and choosing to face the threat.

imo, an unpardonable sin in police work is cowardice. the most blatant example imo is columbine, where patrol officers waited WHILE shots were being fired, for SWAT to arrive. granted, that was consistent with their pre-ASAP era training, but it's still imo unconscionable to not have gone in and faced the threat.

with an active shooter, and many more innocent lives at risk, imo the only choice was to go in. fortunately, post-columbine, cops are taught ASAP which expressly says in an active shooter situation, don't wait for SWAT. engage.

[X_Digger]

62. Semi-Personal note..

A son of one of the men who participated in the Warsaw uprising, who himself participated in Solidarity, came to talk to those of us on the picket lines in Grundy, Va in 1989 (UMWA strike against Consol). He initially only came for a day, but he stayed for almost a week swapping stories. We heard about his father and the other participants of the uprising, as well as the struggles in Gdansk and elsewhere as part of Solidarity.

I got the impression that these men were made of steel- I can only imagine what they went through.

[rd_kent]

70. Why? Because the criminals and the government has access to arms, thats why.

[JonQ]

72. But that can never happen here

For some reason those sorts of things can only ever happen in other places.

[Katya Mullethov]

74. There are other means

Cows immediately come to mind .

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/06/business/global/06milk.html?_r=2&hp