For those of you that think, Security guards and such, will protect you..

[virginia mountainman]

THINK AGAIN...

http://www.breitbart.tv/caught-on-tape-seattle-security-guards-stand-by-as-teen-girl-brutally-attacked/

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

1. I'm going to have to rethink my reliance on security guards.

Thank you, patriot! :patriot:

[Dogmudgeon]

2. Therefore, we should all carry. Even teenagers. Right?

Well, maybe.

There's no such thing as risk-free existence. Gun laws/rights should take this into account.

--d!

[Tejas]

3. "no such thing as risk-free existence" - absolutely false!!1!

We've been told time and time again by the anti-RKBA posters here in the Gungeon that firearms for protection is simple paranoia and at times some sort of rabid fetish. Not needed in the home or in your vehicle much less carried on your person and even less in National Parks.

Get with the program Dogmudgeon, relish the unicorns and rainbows and divest yourself of any worries of encountering violence because it simply does not exist.

^^^^^^^
:sarcasm:

[spin]

16. No, not everybody should carry. No gun supporter here that I can remember...

has ever posted anything like "we should all carry".

[PavePusher]

17. Please, cite? n/t

[Dogmudgeon]

25. Uh ... okay

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x290120#290122">Citation link to my reply.

--d!

[PavePusher]

35. Umm, I meant a cite to where anyone claims that everyone, including children, should have guns.

But you knew that.

Edit: Completely redone because I accidently responded to the wrong person the first time.

[virginia mountainman]

24. The ONLY people who say such things..

Are those that wish to RESTRICT a civil right...

No one else says that..

[SteveM]

29. Who has said/advocated this? Please cite names/organizations. nt

[Glassunion]

4. Observe and Report

Observe and Report... They really have 0 authority. Huge difference between Security and Law Enforcement.

[Old Codger]

6. OK

It has been decided in court time and time again that law enforcement officers have no duty whatsoever to protect anyone period, none at all ever, they can do so if they desire but are not bound by law to do so. They can do nothing unless they witness a crime being committed, their main job is to come in after the fact and write a report on what happened...and investigate if possible. They are really historians for the most part.

[Glassunion]

8. Don't get me wrong...

I have very strong feelings about entrusting my life to any form of Government or Private security. I think that it is complete horse shit.

The government can never insure my safety and keep the Constitution intact. I'd much rather keep the Constitution intact.

[Old Codger]

9. I agree

Ultimately we are responsible for our own safety, the police will never feel as strongly about our rights and our safety as they do about their own rights and safety...I willingly accept that fact and make sure that I and my family are as safe as I can make us without being paranoid... I carry always, everywhere I can legally do so.

[rrneck]

5. The security guards emboldened the beating. (typo fixed)

Busted in a typo! Sorry about that.

[Glassunion]

7. No they did not

But if you watch the video, they emboldened it. Clearly the attack did not start to happen until the girl who was beaten, went to stand near the security guards. It was almost like she did it to "feel" secure or something. Anyway, this must have enraged her attacker and emboldened her attacker to begin her attack.

Sacrosanct Proliferation of Security Guards. Get rid of the guards... Get rid of the crime. -1 point awarded for the douchebaggery of the security guards.

[rrneck]

11. You're right.

Typo fixed.

If you sent me out to fuck up, I'd fuck up on the way.

[eqfan592]

27. LOL!!!

THAT made me laugh! Nice :)

[Tim01]

10. I'll bet the guards would be fired for getting involved.

I'm not justifying what the guards, or not. I'm just saying that they probably have been told that if they get involved in a fight it will cause a liability problem for the company they work for, so, instant termination.

[pneutin]

19. That is true, I remember reading about...

...a Best Buy employee who was fired after he chased a shoplifter out of the store and retrieved the stolen item. It is likely that Olympic Security has a similar policy.

[PavePusher]

36. I'll take being fired...

over not being able to look at myself in the mirror.

A massive symptom of what is wrong with America these days... "It's not my responsibility."

[Gman2]

12. The only good security guards are Xe

Watch those burglar alarm commercials. The girl usually has a guy kick the door in, and then run. Cuz the rent a fuz is comin'. Haha.

[Tim01]

28. I'll bet Xe would be told to get involved.

And I'll bet Xe hires people who would do something.
Yeah, I know everybody thinks that all of Xe are bloodthirsty animals.
They are mostly professionals. And I'll they wouldn't just stand there and let a girl get her head stomped by a another girl. Xe are combat soldiers.

[jeepnstein]

40. They'd be told to protect their client.

[gorfle]

37. Burglar alarm commercials.

Watch those burglar alarm commercials. The girl usually has a guy kick the door in, and then run. Cuz the rent a fuz is comin'. Haha.

I agree, I always find those commercials ridiculous.

In every case, the would-be burglar/rapist runs away after he kicks in the door and the alarm goes off.

I always wonder, "What would you do if he didn't run away?"

[GreenStormCloud]

41. I HATE that commercial.

It perpetuates the women-are-helpless theme. In the commercial, she can't even dial 911 for herself. All she can do is huddle, terrified, with her kids.

She could have the kids behind her, call 911 on her own while holding a gun ready. If the goblin comes into her room, she shoots. Stays on phone to 911 until cops are there.

[Gman2]

13. Forgot to mention, 1 in 4 persons are employed to keep control over the rest of us.

[Glassunion]

15. How do you figure?

[Gman2]

18. Study just out, states that 1 in four Americans is employed to watch the rest of us.

[Katya Mullethov]

20. Shout it from the rooftops !

[X_Digger]

21. Man, can you mangle a headline or what..

"Economist: 1 in 4 Americans is employed to guard the wealth of the rich"

(Which isn't actually what the referenced paper asserts, btw.)

http://tuvalu.santafe.edu/~bowles/GarrisonAmerica2007.pdf

eta: And it's not 'just out' (2007) and it's not a 'study', just a paper.

[GreenStormCloud]

22. I saw the thread on that study, but I don't believe it.

The author must be using an extremely broad definition such that he includes all supervisors, receptionists, cashiers, etc.

[Travis_0004]

14. Should security have done something: Yes

Security should have did something, even if they are not required to. Should we rely on anybody else to protect us: No.

If I was one of those security officers, I would have fought back, although doing so might cost them their job. I'm a college student, If I had a wife and family to support, then I may have been less likely to risk my job (or health).

I think a person with a gun could have stopped this situation immediately (without firing a shot). I would assume this location was almost certainly banning concealed weapons, which made it much safer for the criminals.

Why didn't the women the news interviewed do something? She could have fought back. I think an adult women would have been out numbered against 10 teenagers, but so would 3 security guards.

[burrfoot]

33. The woman they showed was on a bus,

if I recall the video correctly; not out on the sidewalk where she might have been able to intervene in time. Those "guards" on the other hand....

It's hard not to be pissed at them for being shitty human beings when you watch that, but I'm sure they need to keep their jobs just like the rest of us, and for whatever reasons may not be able to risk getting fired (i.e. bills, wife, kids, etc.).

I think the issue is that Olympic needs to be dumped immediately and a security force hired that is allowed to intervene in CLEARLY dangerous situations such as this one. They don't even need to be armed, necessarily- just not legally prevented from assisting.

This is very sad, and frankly disgusting.

If there is any good to come of this, I hope that people who see this video will at least realize that nobody is immune to sudden violence. Whether or not to carry a gun is a totally personal choice, but we NEED to consciously be aware that we're the only ones around can reliably ensure our own safety.

[GreenStormCloud]

23. Modern guards, even armed ones, are told to not interfere. They are NOT almost-cops.

They are to "observe and report" only. In the event of trouble they are to call the police. If they are armed, their guns or other weapons are for their own protection.

If they had gotten involved there would be the potential for a lawsuit by the parents of the teen that they subdued.

This would have been a dicey situation for a CCWer to get involved with too.

[jeepnstein]

39. True.

They are being paid to "protect" something. That is their responsibility. If you have private guards posted the last thing you want to do is worry that they'll be jumping in playing police officer with the general public. Private guards are ill-equipped to be playing the role of peace officers. Expecting them to expose themselves and their employers to risk in acting outside the scope of their job is really asking too much.

What if someone is working a protective detail and witnesses a crime in progress? Does that mean you abandon your client and offer aid? Maybe that's what someone is waiting for you to do? Nope, you stick to your client and do the job.

If some private citizen wants to jump in and do the right thing that's great. Don't expect hired security to be as willing or able to act.

[PavePusher]

26. "Security guards" my ass. Sick.

It's really too bad we don't still have public flogging as a punishment.

[Euromutt]

30. Fortunately, I was under no such illusion in the first place

Insofar as security guards serve to protect anything, it's property. The rest of the time, they're minimum-wage self-propelled signs/cameras. Which is one of the reasons that when gun control advocates say they'd still be in favor of licensed security guards being permitted to carry firearms, my reaction is "why should they?"

We're constantly berated on this forum that using lethal force to protect yourself against a mugger, car-jacker or burglar is illegitimate because mere "stuff isn't worth taking a life." Security guards serve at best to protect mere "stuff," and generally corporate property at that. What legitimate reason is there that they should get to carry firearms and possibly use them in order to protect mere "stuff" while private citizens should not be permitted to carry firearms for the purpose of the protecting life and limb? Hell, no; if private citizens are to be disarmed, the banks, jewelers and wealthy can call 911, just like the rest of us.

[rrneck]

32. Damn straight. nt

[benEzra]

56. Well said. (n/t)

[proteus_lives]

31. When it comes to self-defense, the only person you should rely on is yourself.

It's simple.

[rrneck]

34. I sympathize with the guards

and they are no doubt required to not intervene. But I wonder if they could have at least yelled at the kids. From what I saw in the video, that was uncontrolled anger and a pack mentality. That mindset might have been broken with a good strong bellow from the guards. If they had yelled at them when the fight started that crowd would probably have broken up when they realized there were people watching.

[one-eyed fat man]

43. Juveniles as vermin

The vicious girl who kicked the victim while she was down brushed her way past the "guards". She knew she could act with impunity as a juvenile no adult can touch her. Back in the day, she would have been told to quit once and smacked down with a nightstick should her attention span prove insufficient.

Now, using any force against a juvenile, regardless of how heinous an act you might be trying to stop, would likely cause as much grief. They know that in most cases, even up to and including murder, they will only serve time until they are 18 and then have the convictions sealed.

[gorfle]

38. Security gaurds are just security theater.

Security guards are security theater.

They are there to make people feel safer. The reality is they have no authority, and usually no ability, to intervene in a crime situation.

I hope that girl that got attacked files a whopper of a lawsuit, naming both the city and the contract security company. She clearly went to the security guards for help, pointed out her attackers before the attack began, and the people who were there for "security" did absolutely nothing to help her.

She should have no problem finding a good pro bono or commission attorney for this one.

The 3 grown men wearing clothing that says "SECURITY" on them totally failed in providing any measure of security to the victim.

I don't care if their real mission is "observe and report". If they are observers or reporters then their clothing should say "OBSERVER" OR "REPORTER". But it doesn't. It says "SECURITY". And given that the public has a right to expect these people to act in a manner that provides security.

They didn't. They need to have their asses sued.

[spin]

42. I heard on the news that the girl asked the security guards...

to protect her before the attack.

I don't give a shit if I lost my job. If I was the security guard watching a girl kicking another girl in the head, I would have stepped in.

I have a daughter and I would know how I would feel if I was the girl's father and a security guard didn't have the balls to help my daughter out.

I'm a 64 year old man with a bad hip and back and a handicapped sticker for my car. I'm not a tough guy by any means nor do I play one on the internet, but I'm sure I would have done something to help the girl if I would have been in the situation.

[GreenStormCloud]

46. I hear you, spin. Me too.

But I would much rather do it as a private citizen than as a security guard.

[spin]

47. My daughter pointed out to me that jobs are hard to find ...

hopefully the security company will change their rules and allow guards to intervene in situations like the one in the tape.

The truly sad part is that the guards felt that they would be fired if they actually did something. And they probably would have lost their jobs.

If I would have been there, I would have tried something and more than likely got jumped on by the gang and got the shit kicked out of me. But had I just stood there and watched, I would have had a hard time facing myself in the mirror in the morning as I shaved.

[TPaine7]

50. I would think that had you put the girl emphatically on her ass

and called 911, the guys were too far away to beat your draw--at least if your other hand was on your weapon and your back was against a wall.

You might have survived unscathed, but for the lawsuit.

(No good deed goes unpunished. You can bend the laws of physics, but you can't break them.)

[spin]

51. That's probably the best thing to do in that situation. (n/t).

[GreenStormCloud]

44. Trying to break up a teen-age fight is dangerous.

Teens are full of rage and emotion, short on sense, and doubly so if they are in a peer group. If the guard tries to restrain the girl, he will likely get jumped by one of her boyfriends. You needs backup and tools, such as strong pepper spray to try that.

And when it is over, the parent's lawyers will be all over you for adult-on-youth violence. And the parents of the daughters will be on you because in the struggle you touched part of the girl that you aren't supposed to. Try restraining a struggling, kicking, squirming 15 year old girl without making momentary contact with an intimate part.

And since you were acting outside the scope of your employment, neither your employer nor their client will not stand behind you.

A long time ago, when I worked as an armed security guard at an apartment complex, I intervened in a teen situation. That was back before cell-phones, so I had to act on my own. Today, if in the same situation, I would call 911. In the situation, it was about 7PM in winter, temperature was 35 degrees. A 15 yr old girl was supposed to be taking care of a 3 yr old, but she wanted to be with her boyfriends. So she had the toddler with her at the tennis court. The toddler was dressed in only a flimsy sheer nightgown, and was crying terribly from the cold. (Small children, due to small body mass, can lose body heat quickly, and go into hypothermia.) She tried to argue with me, but I cut her short, angrily saying that if she didn't take the baby inside immediately I would call police and report her for child abuse. I was lucky, and she obeyed. There was some complaining later that I had been mean to the teen, but the parents of the baby got involved and they were really angry with the teen.

Another time, as a guard (I don't remember if I was armed or not.) I attempted to break up a teen-age boy group fight. A pile of about ten 17 years swinging. How could they tell who was on who's side, or did they even care? All that happened was that I got included in the mess.They didn't hit me, but just shoved me out of the way. Since there about ten of them, they were able to do that. The fight wound down and they scattered. My employer let me know that I had exceeded my responsibilities, but as nothing came of the fight, I wasn't disciplined.

Nowadays, guard companies are much stricter on their guards. Yet the clients and the general public expect guards to be almost-cops.

Pay for basic, unarmed guards in the Dallas area is about 1.5X to 2X minimum wage. Training consists of one day, if that, and is combined with filling out the new-hire paperwork and company orientation. Some positions are dangerous. Some companies will fire a guard if they find that he is wearing body armor, as they believe that he is planning to go into dangerous situations.

[Euromutt]

48. Speaking for myself, I'm not faulting the security personnel personally

Rather, what I take issue with is the concept (if you will) of so-called security guards who aren't actually intended nor authorized to provide any actual security, in spite of which the impression is falsely fostered that that's what they're there for.

[PavePusher]

49. WTF is wrong with this country?!?!

"Some companies will fire a guard if they find that he is wearing body armor, as they believe that he is planning to go into dangerous situations."

Some companies apparently need the dictionary opened to the word "guard" and have the page rubbed in their face.

[jeepnstein]

55. Depends on what they're "guarding"...

In most cases one hires outfits like this to see to it that the company's assets don't get carried out the door. They also keep an eye out for situations that would expose the company to risk. Oh, and they try to make the appearance of safe environment as long as everything remains safe. The only reason companies hire these guys is to somehow limit their exposure to liability. It's all about cost and benefit. In most cases they are really errand runners, door openers, and PR. Given that mindset I don't really see most companies wanting to pay the money for a bunch of former Rangers to provide an armed response.

Security, real protective services, can be unbelievably expensive. That's why the state doesn't provide it for ordinary citizens. That's also why companies hire these cheapo contractors instead of one of the more capable outfits providing the service.

Some companies go the extra mile and do spend the money. Rick Rescorla was hired by Morgan Stanley to provide such services at the World Trade Center. He gave the last measure in order to get as many of the people in his charge out as he could. People like that don't come cheap.

[Indy Lurker]

45. Be your own security guard

For only $17.

http://www.defensedevices.com/security-officer-badges.html


You milaeage and local laws may vary.

[Indy Lurker]

52. Most of you have been sucked in like the AP

Your using the word "Guard"

Their vests simply say "Security"

They are Security Officers

They did the only thing they were trained to do make a call.


Read their website at: http://www.olympiksecurity.com/



They provide:

Security personnel accurately matched to each client's needs (Cheap!)

Highly trained staff responds rapidly in emergencies (by making a call)



"According to their contract, the "guards" are to "observe and report" problems"

All they have is a flashlight and a vest, and no training with the flashlight.

Last week they could have been Telemarketers.

They had no idea or training on how to handle 10 violent teens. One even ran away.

Blame Seattle Metro, they hired security personnel who could only "observe and report" problems


If you want security personnel who can engage criminals, they need to be trained and equipped (pepper spray, tazer or firearms). You probably can't get that for $10/Hr.

[GreenStormCloud]

53. Most people use the two words interchangeably.

You are right that there are different levels of security personnel.

[one-eyed fat man]

54. you mean those security guys

are just like gun control laws? Their main purpose is not to stop crime but to create an illusion of "something being done" so that stupid people will "feel" better?

[Indy Lurker]

57. Exactly.

That's what you get for $10 / Hr.


Now for $32 an hour (in Roanoke Virginia) you can hire someone with real police powers.

Personally, I'd rather have 1 armed cop than those three clowns.

http://www.roanokeva.gov/85256A8D0062AF37/vwContentByKey/N27A3QVN771JCOTEN



"You may schedule off-duty Roanoke Police Officers to provide security for your event that takes place within the City of Roanoke. Requests for off-duty police officers must be made at least 48 hours prior to the event. If you require an off-duty officer on a regular basis, we strongly encourage placing them on your payroll. Upon completing and faxing your contract application you will be contacted by a member of the Roanoke Police Department to finalize your request."

There is a two hour minimum for each officer.

Hourly Rates (FICA included):

Officer ($32.30)
Supervisor ($37.68)
If less than 48 hours notice ($48.44)
Please note that:
5-9 Officers requires one Supervisor
10-14 Officers requires two Supervisors
15-20 Officers requires three Supervisors