Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Can the NRA or ACLU or any other alphabet soup create new rights?

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Guns Donate to DU
 
Nuclear Unicorn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-16-10 12:13 PM
Original message
Can the NRA or ACLU or any other alphabet soup create new rights?
That may sound like a silly question but hear me out:

Some people maintain that the NRA is affecting the way laws are passed. To be certain they do throw money around but so do unions and I'm not eager to see their efforts brought down because unions do protect people. God bless America, we have the best legislators money can buy.

But then we have to look towards the way the NRA involves itself in court cases. Again, for the most part this is a matter of people being able to freely participate in their government, i.e. democracy...and as a democrat I feel at least somewhat ideologically obligated to support such enterprises.

But if the NRA/ACLU/PPFA/whotheheckever files an opinion with the court and the court ends up agreeing with them did the filer of the opinion create new law or merely point out that which already existed?

The point of this is to say: when we attack *any* group because they file opinions that the court agrees with we aren't attacking the opinion we're attacking their participation in the process wherein our disputes are resolved.

Maybe we don't like the law but laws can change. We don't hang horse theives anymore, women can vote, civil rights are the law of the land and Prohibition was repealed.

I'll admit, I tend to look askance at the NRA. I'm not entirely comfortable with everything they profess to champion.

I certainly wouldn't send them MY money.

But I can't say I want them to STFU just to assuage my preferences. I think that would make me something I generally tend to fear.

I would be horrified if someone "returned the favor" against an advocacy group I prefer, i.e. the ACLU, Planned Parenthood, Amnesty, WWF, etc. What happened to ACORN was a travesty but I don't think things will be improved by trying to race my political opposites in an effort to collect scalps, as it were.

Flame on!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
russ1943 Donating Member (405 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-16-10 12:18 PM
Response to Original message
1. NEW right.................
No, but the right wing zealots on USSC can, and did.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-16-10 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Of course you knew the left wing of the SCOTUS also agrees in an individual RKBA?
Edited on Fri Jul-16-10 12:29 PM by Statistical
The split in the court was only of the level of restrictions that can Constitutionally be applied against that right.
The left 4 = banning an entire class of weapons (handguns) does not Unconstitutionally violate that right.
The right 4 + Kennedy = banning an entire class of weapons (handguns) does Unconstitutioanlly violate that right.


So the entire court agrees in an individual right. So does the majority of Americans, the majority of states (in state Constitutions), the majority of non-gun owners, and the majority of Democratic voters.

Get with the times. An individual right to keep and bear arms has always existed. You are in a small and shrinking minority.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Abq_Sarah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-16-10 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. I would ask
The 4 who believe the government can ban the most commonly used means of self defense if they realize they didn't give us any rights.

This is my main beef with them. They seem to understand when it comes to other rights, the constitution limits or prohibits the actions the government is allowed to take. But when it comes to firearms, suddenly the constitution is a tool that empowers government with rights.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-16-10 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Well not exactly.
The constitution always limits the government.

They simply think that the limit on handguns is a Constitutional limit.

The individual right exists.
The 2nd protects that right.
Any right is subject to Constitutional limit.
The handgun ban is Constitutional.

Government have no rights, only powers. Powers are either prohibited or granted. The minority opinion found that the power to ban firearms is not prohibited under the 2nd amendment and thus the right hasn't been infringed. Personally I think they are just blowing smoke but that is the "logic".


What would have been interesting is if DC or Chicago had banned all firearms. What would the minority 4 have done. Would they by their logic in Heller found that to be Unconstitutional? Or would they simply have found another "loophole" to justify their positions and convince themselves it is still Constitutional.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-16-10 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Like a women's right to choose, based on the right of privacy found in the penumbra
of the Constitution, You remember that penumbra don't you.

In the US, recognition of rights normally comes from the courts. By way of example, Democratic administrations with Democratic House and Senate majorities are yet to put Roe V Wade in legislation.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Abq_Sarah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-16-10 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. This is where the right
Screws up the most on this debate. They love to talk about enumerated rights but they seem to forget the 9th amendment.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SteveM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-16-10 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. I don't think the RW thinks too much of the 9th...
or for that matter the "privileges and immunities" clause of the 14th. That is why, in a way, Justice Thomas' use of the 14th is surprising and runs counter to some rightists. I believe it is Scalia's opinion that the P & I clause is "flotsam."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Abq_Sarah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-16-10 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #12
27. Scalia definitely
Isn't on board with citizens holding power vs the state holding power. Only the issues he picks and chooses separates him from a few others on the court that seem to fall on the side of the state as well.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Nuclear Unicorn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-16-10 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. Actually I think they say "enumerated powers"
At least that is what my fiance says.

Then again he calls himself conservative but he makes likes of positions I've not heard from other conservatives.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GreenStormCloud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-16-10 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #13
20. He may be Libertarian and not know it. N/T
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Nuclear Unicorn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-16-10 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. I dunno
He calls Ron Paul a "turd-chewing libertarian" so I'm going to go with: maybe not.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GreenStormCloud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-16-10 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. Oh Well. It was a guess. Looks like not. N/T
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Nuclear Unicorn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-16-10 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. I'll give my guy his due
He comes up with some extremely colorful expletives.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AtheistCrusader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-16-10 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
4. I don't see any reason to flame your question.
I would say 'yes' if the NRA could say, file an opinion with the court, and then somehow block all other opinions from reaching the court for consideration. But they can't.

In fact, the NRA originally filed a contrary brief in Heller, because they didn't want that case to go to the Supreme Court, IIRC. There were over 30 separate opinions filed on a range of issues, and from a range of perspectives.

So, I would say, in practice, 'no'. And we will be in deep shit if ever the answer became 'yes'.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-16-10 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
5. Agreed entirely.
The theory of government behind the bill of rights is that the rights of the people are pre-existing; they can't be added to or removed, just protected or not protected. Now, sometimes the court doesn't do a very good job of that. For instance, I and probably most other people here think that you have the right to smoke a joint, within the types of reasonable restrictions that are placed on alcohol consumption. The courts don't recognize that right.

Now, some time in the future, they may finally catch up to an appropriate level of progress, and say that you can smoke a joint. That doesn't mean they created a new right to do drugs, it just means that they finally recognized that an individual has the freedom to do as they like with their body.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TPaine7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-16-10 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
9. What are you, some kind of alien or something?!
Edited on Fri Jul-16-10 01:55 PM by TPaine7
I can't say I want them to STFU just to assuage my preferences.


Wanting your political opponents to STFU is as American as apple pie. That's been our way since the claims that if Jefferson was elected president rape and mayhem would be taught in the schools, and the claims that President John Adams was a hermaphrodite. Adams answered with his own, less subtle call for his opponents to STFU--the revered Alien and Sedition Act.

Your views are obviously anti-American. But I think they're worse than that. Wanting your opponents to STFU is only human--it's one of the main reasons for much of the killing in earth history. People were saying the wrong things, religiously or philosophically.

So when I opine that you might be some type of alien, I mean you're possibly not from around this solar system.

Can we help repair your spaceship?



PS: isn't there some rule against blatant decency?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Nuclear Unicorn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-16-10 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. But I don't want my spaceship repaired because I don't want to leave.
I like the people here. All of them, not just the ones I agree with.

Some of the folks posting here I don't agree with their efforts to restrict what has been ruled as a right because I think that could be used to restrict my rights in other places, i.e. to choose.

But I still like them as people even when they aren't acting very nicely and it saddens me when the people I do agree with don't act very nicely either.


I'm just silly that way.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TPaine7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-16-10 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. How do you sleep at night?
Your blatant, over-the-top decency disturbs me. I'm starting to think I could be more civil and understanding. I'm considering becoming a kinder, gentler poster. Even when provoked by clueless, self-righteous types.

:puke:

And there are people, probably many, more susceptible to civility and decency than I am. These at-risk folks could be even more damaged.

You're a very bad influence. How do you sleep at night?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Nuclear Unicorn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-16-10 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. PM
:hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TPaine7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-16-10 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. Thanks! Check your inbox. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Caliman73 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-16-10 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. I am having a party and unfortunately all I have is this water and I was wondering...
Is there something you could do to help me out?:rofl:

Seriously though. I agree with you. There are definitely visceral reactions to some ideas that are just completely opposed to what I believe, but as you say, there are people on the other end of those opinions and they think my opinions are just as bad. We can disagree but we can still respect each others human dignity. It saddens me too when people that I tend to agree with make arguments in a way that are disrespectful.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SteveM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-16-10 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
10. I don't think any of the groups you mention can "create" rights...
anymore than the Constitution created rights; it only recognized them and in the BOR specifically forbade the federal government from abridging those rights.

Sometimes a dispute comes forth, as has happened with the Second Amendment, where there is little prior record of court cases and legislation, and the court rules that a right is infringed. Yet others think that a "new right" has been created since for so long a city, state or even the feds maintained laws which were often unconstitutional, but unchallenged. With regards the Second, scholars admitted as late as the 1960s that the number of court cases directly involving 2A was quite thin, federal legislation spotty, and scholarship uncommon at best. Over the last 40 years that has changed, prompting the leading advocate of the "militia clauses," Laurence Tribe, to declare in 1999 that the Second does indeed recognize an individual right.

I must point out that the NRA was initially opposed to the strategy of Heller filing suit in the D.C. case, and was lukewarm to the McDonald decision, but elbowed its way in later. They are not above taking credit once someone else has done the tilling, seeding and taken the chances on a good crop. The prefer the legislative/lobbying route.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OneTenthofOnePercent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-16-10 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
11. A few points..
Typically, the NRA tries to avoid the courts. Hear me out...
The political wing of the NRA deals with politicians, elections, and voters/members. They like to influence firearms laws on the legislative side of the equation and they do this very well. The problem with courts, especiallythe SCOTUS is that it's a coinflip and any decision could potentially become a double-edge sword. Even the Heller case a few years ago was not picked up by the NRA until the tide was heavily in favor of RKBA. The even tried to derail the case early on fearing that a loss would be detrimental. They don;t like people stealing their thunder in the RKBA-rights sector, so to speak.

Nevertheless... when a group sways a court opinion, I'm of the belief that new rights may be recognized but not given. A right that is given is a right that can be taken away. Otherwise said... a privelege. IMO, civil rights groups are merely raising awareness or trying to change the courts point of view on possible civil rights violations.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-16-10 02:09 PM
Response to Original message
15. Your intellectual self-honesty is amazingly consistant...
Edited on Fri Jul-16-10 02:10 PM by PavePusher
and refreshing.

It's too bad more people, no matter what their political bent, aren't like that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rrneck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-16-10 03:25 PM
Response to Original message
18. Aye, there's the rub.
Edited on Fri Jul-16-10 03:27 PM by rrneck
There are those, not a few of whom are on this board, who seem to think political affiliations are monolithic blocks of lemmings trooping along behind a shining ideology. People don't operate that way, especially liberals who are outliers when it comes to truculent unherdability.

The NRA doesn't get any of my money either, but a lot of left leaning independents and liberals are members because they stump for RKBA. As liberals keep buying guns, the NRA will come to represent a more balanced cross section of the public and maybe start to lean left some day.

There's no need to worry about who files a friend of the court brief or who helps push a case up the hill to the nine wise souls who sit in judgment there. We should do what progressives and liberals do best; worry about people. The politics will take care of themselves.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-16-10 03:38 PM
Response to Original message
22. Nobody can create rights. All rights exist by default.
Only entitlements and obligations can be created by government, or anyone else.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GreenStormCloud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-16-10 04:15 PM
Response to Original message
25. Your honestly and civility is truly refreshing in this contentious forum.
Edited on Fri Jul-16-10 04:15 PM by GreenStormCloud
If both D & R in congress were as honest, open minded, and civil, they could probably solve a lot of the nation's problems in very short order.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TPaine7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-16-10 04:16 PM
Response to Original message
26. Rights are recognized and accepted, but not created--at least not by people.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.—That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men,...


We don't create rights, that's the work of the Creator. (Whether the Creator is God or Nature is immaterial. It is certainly true that neither Congress, nor the President, nor the Supreme Court, nor any branch of state or local government is the Creator.*)

Some people maintain that the NRA is affecting the way laws are passed. To be certain they do throw money around but so do unions and I'm not eager to see their efforts brought down because unions do protect people. God bless America, we have the best legislators money can buy.

But then we have to look towards the way the NRA involves itself in court cases. Again, for the most part this is a matter of people being able to freely participate in their government, i.e. democracy...and as a democrat I feel at least somewhat ideologically obligated to support such enterprises.

But if the NRA/ACLU/PPFA/whotheheckever files an opinion with the court and the court ends up agreeing with them did the filer of the opinion create new law or merely point out that which already existed?


The NRA influencing American law is itself protected by the First Amendment:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.


The legitimate weapon against NRA free speech is anti-NRA free speech.

*As I discuss in my long-winded rant of an open letter to Obama, www.obamaonsecond.com , which will only be online for a few more days.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MisterBill45 Donating Member (109 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-16-10 06:38 PM
Response to Original message
29. McDonald, Heller or Roe v Wade didn't "create" anything
They were just affirmations of the court that the rights existed and that the laws under suit violated these protected rights as guaranteed by the constitution.

Neither the constitution nor the government have the power or authority to grant, create, or destroy a right. They can repress it or respect it, but the right still exists. Do you lose the fundamental right to be free from torture by virtue of what a court says? Even if the constitution expressly allowed for torture, wouldn't your human right still exist?

If you read the writings of the folks involved in the debates surrounding the constitution, one of the big objections to the bill of rights was that some damn fool a hundred years down the road would look at the document and conclude that those rights in the constitution were the ONLY rights of Americans. As we can see with the hysteria surrounding Heller and Roe, they were correct to have this worry.

What happened in both Heller and Roe was that the courts looked at the issue and said the right being argued for was in fact protected under the constitution. I note that in Roe in particular they ruled on an issue that wasn't addressed in any way, shape or form in the original document. The same goes for Griswold v Conn. the famous ruling against the prohibition of birth control. Not in the constitution at all. Nor a right to privacy specifically addressed except in terms of warrants issued. Nor is there any specific mention of a right of confidence between patient and doctor. The courts have ruled that all these things are in fact rights, whether or not the text says anything specific about them.

That's the entire point of the 9th amendment. The people have ALL the rights not explicitly reserved to the states or the federal government. The constitution doesn't limit people, it limits government power.

How anyone who thinks of themselves as a liberal or leftist could possibly be in favor of granting the government MORE authority when we've never been able to keep a tight enough rein on them to begin with is beyond me. It's some bizarre neo-pacifist, state-worshiping religion, not liberal thought.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Euromutt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-17-10 03:58 AM
Response to Original message
30. I think new rights can be created, in a sense, but not by the judiciary or an advocacy group
The answer depends very strongly on what you consider the nature of rights to be. I disagree with a few of the posters here in that I don't believe rights come a deity or nature; if they did, it should be physically impossible to violate them. I believe a right comes about when a sufficient number of people say "I wouldn't want that to be done to me," combined with the time-honored principle of "do not unto others as you would not have them do unto you." That would make it possible for "new" rights to come into existence--though it might be argued that the right always existed, we just didn't realize it yet, but that starts to head into philosophy country--but it couldn't be done merely on the basis of an amicus brief and a court ruling; it would require the existence of a near-universal sentiment among society as a whole.

Provided, that is, that everybody honestly acknowledges that the thing in question is something, in a wider sense, they would not want to done to themselves. E.g. anybody who contends that he has a right to not have the government tell him what he can and cannot do with his own body skates very close to hypocrisy if he doesn't see a problem with outlawing abortion; similarly, someone who doesn't want the government telling him what religions he can or cannot be an adherent of skates very close to hypocrisy when he thinks the government ought to be able to treat people as suspicious because of their religious beliefs. Such a person may not specifically want to have an abortion or be muslim, say, but since he doesn't want the government penalizing him for what he does with his own body and his own mind, he can't condone the government doing that to others without being a massive hypocrite.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TPaine7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-17-10 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #30
32. I've heard this objection before, but I don't quite grasp it.
I disagree with a few of the posters here in that I don't believe rights come a deity or nature; if they did, it should be physically impossible to violate them.

Allow me a rough analogy.

Life exists, and is either the creation of God(s) or of Nature. That does not mean that killing is impossible.

I see no reason to conclude that if a thing originated with God or Nature, it cannot possibly be violated in any way.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Euromutt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-18-10 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. You're missing a step
Allow me a rough analogy.

Life exists, and is either the creation of God(s) or of Nature. That does not mean that killing is impossible.

Sure. But the step you've missed is specifying the Creator's intent regarding the matter. If it is possible to kill a living creature, then the Creator evidently did not intend for it to be impossible to deprive that creature of life. That being the case, it seems contrary to empirical fact to assert that it is Creators' intent that the creature not be deprived of life.

Yes, I acknowledge that statements like "if God had intended for us to fly, He would have given us wings" and "if it wasn't meant to be eaten, it wouldn't be shaped like a taco" are something of an appeal to nature (http://fallacyfiles.org/adnature.html), and thus fallacious, and my argument is very similar in form. Where it differs is that it is a response to the claim that rights are endowed by God or Nature, essentially saying "if that were so, then why...?"
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TPaine7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-18-10 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. Not that there aren't problems (or at least deep questions) at every turn,
Edited on Sun Jul-18-10 01:34 PM by TPaine7
but arguments like yours seem to prove that God is ok with any atrocity imaginable that does not violate the laws of physics--"whatever is, is right."

That is a step too far for me.

Even without a God, I maintain that certain things are inherently wrong, as recognized by virtually all humans. The fact that we cannot objectively prove that they are wrong without accepting some axiomatic principles on "faith" is not unique. The same is true of theorems in mathematics.

Another example--for a long time, we did not have a valid explanation for color. Almost everyone could distinguish certain colors, yet we couldn't justify the distinction with a valid scientific theory. Some few people couldn't distinguish certain colors, but that fact didn't invalidate the general human experience--any more than psychopaths invalidate our general experience of rightness and wrongness and rights.

Sometimes the experience comes first, then the theoretical, scientific justification.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Euromutt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-19-10 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #34
36. I just don't believe in "multiplying entities unnecessarily"
<...> arguments like yours seem to prove that God is ok with any atrocity imaginable that does not violate the laws of physics--"whatever is, is right."

The evidence certainly seems to point that way. "The skies," (in)famously, "did not darken over Auschwitz" and ultimately, the operation of the Nazi extermination camps (Auschwitz-Birkenau, Treblinka, Sobibor, Majdanek, Chelmno and Belzec) was stopped not by divine intervention, but by the Red Army.

Even without a God, I maintain that certain things are inherently wrong, as recognized by virtually all humans. The fact that we cannot objectively prove that they are wrong without accepting some axiomatic principles on "faith" is not unique.

I don't disagree that certain things are recognized as inherently wrong by virtually all humans, but I don't think we need to go further than the aforementioned principle of "do not unto others as you would not have them do unto you." If you don't want others to deprive you of life, liberty and/or property (at least, not without due process), it's only fair to expect you to reciprocate. That may not be objective, but it doesn't require invoking some kind of deity, at which point (certainly being an atheistic secular humanist) I tend to apply Occam's Razor.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Callisto32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-17-10 09:22 AM
Response to Original message
31. The idea that rights can be created or destroyed is based upon flawed thinking.
Rights EXIST. They are like mass, and can be neither created nor destroyed. If they can be created or destroyed, they are merely privileges.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-18-10 06:33 PM
Response to Original message
35. There are rights and there are unalienable rights...

UNALIENABLE RIGHTS

Second, the Declaration of Independence states that all men are "endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness . . ." The Declaration recognizes that unalienable rights are defined a priori by God. In this sense, the law governing the exercise of unalienable rights is from eternity. Lex est ab æterno.35 Neither the Declaration or the Constitution could enumerate all the rights which were to be protected. They could, however, point to the source of rights - our Creator - for reference by future generations. Each succeeding generation could then look to God the Creator and the particular rights he has granted which that generation considered were most suitable to assuring its own safety and happiness.

The legal definition of "unalienable," and "rights" are worth reviewing. By definition, unalienable means incapable of transfer. In other words an unalienable right cannot be given away. More importantly, however, that which is unalienable cannot be taken away, especially by the civil government, except by forfeiture.36 The idea of rights as unalienable, indefeasible, indubitable or inherent was part and parcel of the framers' worldview. Though these different words may not have precisely the same meaning, they carry the same essence - that people have certain rights from their Creator which civil government is not authorized to deny or disparage.37

The idea of unalienability is easier to grasp than the idea of rights. This condition is owing to the deterioration of the definition of rights. The definition of rights has been alloyed through impure construction. Unalienability on the other hand, has simply been ignored and thus has not suffered definitional corrosion of its meaning. To the modern jurist, a right is considered as such simply because it is asserted as a right. For instance, Black's Law Dictionary declares that a right is "a power, privilege, faculty, or demand, inherent in one person and incident upon another."38

RIGHTS IN THE AMENDMENTS

An example of an enumerated unalienable right found in the First Amendment prohibits Congress, inter alia, from making any law prohibiting the free exercise of religion. This provision has its roots in Thomas Jefferson's "Virginia Bill for Establishing Religious Freedom,"42 as well as the Declaration's unalienable right of liberty. One of the controlling premises of this statute, like that of the First Amendment, is that "Almighty God hath created the mind free."43 Jefferson asserted that freedom of the mind was "of the natural rights of mankind," and therefore beyond the scope of civil jurisdiction. Other freedoms, such as speech, press, assembly and petition, are also found in the First Amendment. These freedoms are also based in part on the fact that "Almighty God created the mind free."

In addition, the Second Amendment prohibits Congress from infringing upon the right "to keep and bear arms" which is immediately derived from the unalienable right to life and that of self-government. The Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments assure that neither the Congress nor the States have power to deprive a person of "life, liberty or property, without due process of law." Not all constitutional provisions, however, deal with unalienable rights, such as the twenty dollar prerequisite to jury trials in the Seventh Amendment. emphasis added
http://www.lonang.com/conlaw/1/c12b.htm#3



UNALIENABLE.
The state of a thing or right which cannot be sold.

Things which are not in commerce, as public roads, are in their nature unalienable. Some things are unalienable, in consequence of particular provisions in the law forbidding their sale or transfer, as pensions granted by the government. The natural rights of life and liberty are UNALIENABLE. Bouviers Law Dictionary 1856 Edition

"Unalienable: incapable of being alienated, that is, sold and transferred." Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Edition, page 1523:

You can not surrender, sell or transfer unalienable rights, they are a gift from the creator to the individual and can not under any circumstances be surrendered or taken. All individual's have unalienable rights.

Inalienable rights: Rights which are not capable of being surrendered or transferred without the consent of the one possessing such rights. Morrison v. State, Mo. App., 252 S.W.2d 97, 101.

You can surrender, sell or transfer inalienable rights if you consent either actually or constructively. Inalienable rights are not inherent in man and can be alienated by government. Persons have inalienable rights. Most state constitutions recognize only inalienable rights.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness. DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE
http://www.gemworld.com/USA-Unalienable.htm


John Locke and his writings were very influential on the Founding Fathers and are reflected in the Bill of Rights.



The Founding Fathers drew heavily upon English philosopher John Locke in establishing America’s First Principles, most notably the recognition of unalienable rights, the Social Compact, and limited government.

Born on August 29, 1632, in Wrington, England, Locke was trained as a physician, but quickly became an influential political theorist closely associated with the Whig party of England. He wrote several revolutionary political works, including Some Thoughts Concerning Education, A Letter Concerning Toleration, and An Essay Concerning Human Understanding.

Locke’s most profound and influential writings were his First and Second Treatise of Civil Government (1689). Written to defend the Glorious Revolution of 1688, in the Second Treatise, Locke explained that in a state of nature men and women were free to pursue and defend there own interests, which resulted in a brutal state of war. To escape this warfare, individuals established government to secure the peace. Locke noted that there could be “no freedom” without a Social Compact of laws, because “liberty is to be free from restraint and violence from others; which cannot be where there is no law.”

Unlike his English rival Thomas Hobbes, Locke argued that because governments were instituted to protect the unalienable rights of individuals, they had no power other than what was necessary to protect such rights. In other words, a free and just government was necessarily a limited government.

His sentiments are reflected in the Declaration of Independence and undergird the Constitution.
http://www.americassurvivalguide.com/john-locke.php


Natural Right to Self Defense

John Locke (1632-1704) was a philosopher who maintained that ... all human beings were equal and free to pursue "life, health, liberty, and possessions." The state formed by the social contract among the people was guided by the natural law, which guaranteed those inalienable rights. He set down the policy of checks and balances later followed in the U.S. Constitution; formulated the doctrine that revolution in some circumstances is not only a right but an obligation; and argued for broad religious freedom. Much of the liberal social, economic, and ethical theory of the 18th century was rooted in Locke's social-contract theories.

The right of self defense is called by Locke the first law of nature. Each person owns his or her own life and no other person has a right to take that life. Consequently, a person may resist aggressive attacks. John Locke provide the philosophical basis for the American Revolution and the rights of the people proclaimed by that revolution. The following quotes are taken from Locke's Second Essay on Civil Government. Paragraph numbers are given for the quotes to permit the referenced text to be easily found. A link to that Essay is given, but because that site occasionally does not work, another source is given here.

Locke on Self Defense:

And thus it is that every man in the state of Nature has a power to kill a murderer, both to deter others from doing the like injury (which no reparation can compensate) by the example of the punishment that attends it from everybody, and also to secure men from the attempts of a criminal who, having renounced reason, the common rule and measure God hath given to mankind, hath, by the unjust violence and slaughter he hath committed upon one, declared war against all mankind, and therefore may be destroyed as a lion or a tiger, one of those wild savage beasts with whom men can have no society nor security. And upon this is grounded that great law of nature, "Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed." And Cain was so fully convinced that every one had a right to destroy such a criminal, that, after the murder of his brother, he cries out, "Every one that findeth me shall slay me," so plain was it writ in the hearts of all mankind.

Reference: John Locke, An Essay Concerning the true original, extent, and end of Civil Government, 1690, para. 11

And hence it is that he who attempts to get another man into his absolute power does thereby put himself into a state of war with him; it being to be understood as a declaration of a design upon his life. For I have reason to conclude that he who would get me into his power without my consent would use me as he pleased when he had got me there, and destroy me too when he had a fancy to it; for nobody can desire to have me in his absolute power unless it be to compel me by force to that which is against the right of my freedom -- i.e. make me a slave. To be free from such force is the only security of my preservation, and reason bids me look on him as an enemy to my preservation who would take away that freedom which is the fence to it; so that he who makes an attempt to enslave me thereby puts himself into a state of war with me. He that in the state of Nature would take away the freedom that belongs to any one in that state must necessarily be supposed to have a design to take away everything else, that freedom being the foundation of all the rest; as he that in the state of society would take away the freedom belonging to those of that society or commonwealth must be supposed to design to take away from them everything else, and so be looked on as in a state of war.

Reference: John Locke, Ibid, para. 17

This makes it lawful for a man to kill a thief who has not in the least hurt him, nor declared any design upon his life, any farther than by the use of force, so to get him in his power as to take away his money, or what he pleases, from him; because using force, where he has no right to get me into his power, let his pretence be what it will, I have no reason to suppose that he who would take away my liberty would not, when he had me in his power, take away everything else. And, therefore, it is lawful for me to treat him as one who has put himself into a state of war with me -- i.e., kill him if I can; for to that hazard does he justly expose himself whoever introduces a state of war, and is aggressor in it.

Reference: John Locke, Ibid, para. 18
http://www.mcrkba.org/w0.html


If you are suggesting that the NRA is implementing new rights, I fear you are mistaken. The NRA is merely reflecting the views of the founding fathers and the philosophers that influenced them.

I would also like to point out that yearly membership dues to the NRA do little to help their political wings, the NRA-ILA and the NRA-PVF.


The fund-raising that sustains NRA’s legislative activities is conducted by ILA. Federal and many state election laws dictate that funds used to assist candidates for office must be raised separately, and that is the task of NRA’s political action committee—the NRA Political Victory Fund (NRA-PVF). Neither NRA member dues nor contributions to ILA can be used directly for the election or defeat of candidates.

Because of these clearly defined parameters, and because only a small fraction of ILA’s operating budget comes from regular NRA membership dues, both ILA and NRA-PVF must continuously raise the funds needed to sustain NRA’s legislative and political activities. The resources expended in these arenas come from the generous contributions of NRA members—above and beyond their regular dues.
http://www.nraila.org/About/PoliticalVictoryFund/


The NRA dues support a number of worthwhile programs which promote gun safety, handling and training. These programs can be viewed at:
http://www.nra.org/programs.aspx














Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Sat May 04th 2024, 06:00 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Guns Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC