Philadelphia police 'outgunned' in last week's shooting

[MichaelHarris]

That's all Lt. Vincent Testa, head of the Philadelphia Police Department's firearms investigation unit, could muster as he surveyed the "military-style" weapons recovered last week on the 3000 block of North Water Street in Kensington - where Officer Kevin Livewell escaped with only a leg wound after exchanging gunfire with driver Ramon De Jesus and at least one of two heavily armed passengers in his white van.

Read more: http://www.philly.com/inquirer/local/20100720_Philadelphia_police__outgunned__in_last_week_s_shooting.html#ixzz0uFj2eAsf

[slackmaster]

1. Police have access to far more powerful weapons than are available to the general public

N&U for sensationalism.

:nuke:

[DJ13]

2. A couple guys no matter how well armed wont defeat hundreds of police

The police would prefer to become a paramilitary force, spending untold sums on really cool automatic weapons, so they love to complain they're out gunned.

[slackmaster]

3. Complaints about being out-gunned usually precede demands for more money

:nuke:

[DJ13]

5. True

They need to stay in budget like the people they supposedly serve.

[rrneck]

4. Unrec for pointless propaganda.

From the link in the OP.

Police are working to establish how De Jesus and Cuenas acquired their weapons. Both men, according to Blackburn, "are known to police" for past offenses.

A search of court records for De Jesus and Cuenas showed that Cuenas has several drug convictions. He pleaded guilty to drug dealing and criminal conspiracy, and was sentenced in 2002 to 231/2 months in prison. He also pleaded guilty to drug dealing and was sentenced in 2003 to six to 12 months in prison. He was charged with several violent crimes as an adult, including attempted murder, but those cases were either withdrawn or dismissed.

[Glassunion]

6. We should ban criminals from obtaining firearms. Like make it against the law or something...

"Police are working to establish how De Jesus and Cuenas acquired their weapons. Both men, according to Blackburn, "are known to police" for past offenses.

A search of court records for De Jesus and Cuenas showed that Cuenas has several drug convictions. He pleaded guilty to drug dealing and criminal conspiracy, and was sentenced in 2002 to 231/2 months in prison. He also pleaded guilty to drug dealing and was sentenced in 2003 to six to 12 months in prison. He was charged with several violent crimes as an adult, including attempted murder, but those cases were either withdrawn or dismissed."

People like this should not be able to just waltz into WalMart and buy firearms like this.

While we are at it, we should make dealing drugs illegal. Cause that might make them not want to deal drugs.

Also, we should make it a felony or something for shooting at a cop. Cause that's just not right.

[Hoopla Phil]

7. Police say "We're outgunned". Police mean "We want new shit".

Just a way to stir up support to spend a bunch on money on shit the police don't really need.

[Sherman A1]

10. Precisely

[NoNothing]

8. Oh, come on

We are expected to believe the police don't have rifles?

All of the heavy breathing in the article basically boils down to: they had rifles. Not fully-automatic. Less powerful than a typical hunting rifle.

"two 30-round magazines were taped together to allow maximum firepower."

MAXIMUM FIREPOWER! With DUCT TAPE!

"Bullets from the assault rifles, Testa added, travel up to 3,000 feet per second"

Not at all unusual for any kind of rifle. Specifying "assault" is sheer propaganda.

"Inside the van, police recovered two Bushmaster AR-15 assault-type rifles, a Taurus PT24 pistol, a TEC-9 semiautomatic pistol, and another Glock."

The Taurus is also semi-automatic, as is the Glock. Just like virtually every handgun that isn't a revolver. But, the TEC-9 looks scarier.

This article is designed to mislead and misinform.

[Statistical]

9. Police have access to select fire weapons, sniper rifles ( AP ammo), and grenade launchers.

None of which are available to the general public. The idea that Police are "outgunned" is silly.


Police don't need more paramilitary hardware and there doesn't need to be even more restrictions of semi-auto firearms.

"military style" is a dubious distinction. A spoiler on a 1995 4 cylinder Ford Escort is a "racing style"; Changes how it looks but doesn't make it go faster. Hence the word STYLE in "military style".

Military weapons = dangerous.
Military "style" weapons = looks scary.

[old mark]

11. Bullshit. Cops ALWAYS say that when they are looking for new weapons.

the car that was stopped contained semi-automatic versions of police weapons...several Ruger Mini-14's and what looked like 2 H&K 9mm carbines and a few pistols.

Philadelphia police would not be outgunned by the armies of some small nations - maybe he meant the 2 officers who made a traffic stop on the van who had to rely on their auto pistols and couldn't get back to their car for a shotgun or M-16...
ADDED: I will bet that these bad guys had had previous charges dismissed in plea bargains - like gun posession charges. The guys who are now on trial for killing a Philly cop in '08 ALL had previous gun posession charges dropped in plea bargains, and all had early release from prison for violent felony convictions. Blame it on the guns. Bullshit propaganda - Philly wants very much to ban all privately owned guns, and has tried to regulate them very stringently in violation of the PA state constitution. The former DA Lynn Abraham stated she WOULD NOT ENFORCE the anti-gun laws that were proposed by Mayor Nutter because they were illegal. The new DA does not seem so ethical.

mark

[Pavulon]

12. Here is a pictorial tour for the ignorant

2 M4A1 Select fire rifles $ 900 per (NFA item cost 20,000)
1 HKMP5SD5 Sound Suppressed 9mm SMG (NFA Item cost 15 - 20,000)
1 SIG P226(8/9)

Criminal fuckers do criminal shit. Not my problem as a legal firearm owner. Our PD issues rifles now.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=&imgrefurl=http://lpd304.blogspot.com/2008_03_01_archive.html&usg=__m97IdKIh5roHJzTnGsZW0F5poGs=&h=761&w=700&sz=151&hl=en&start=5&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=9XnrP70CrHAONM:&tbnh=142&tbnw=131&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dphiladelphia%2Bswat%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dsafari%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Den%26tbs%3Disch:1

[benEzra]

13. So let me follow your logic:

If the bad guy has a modern-looking civilian rifle and responding police don't (because said rifles were left in the cruiser or are back at the station), we need a new AWB.

If the bad guy has a traditional looking deer rifle, shotgun, and pistol and responding police have AR-15's and shotguns, we need a new AWB.



And if any criminal, anywhere, ever uses a rifle with a handgrip that sticks out, no matter how rare such events are in the big scheme of things and no matter if he manages to hurt anyone or not, we need a new AWB.

Does that about sum it up?

[Katya Mullethov]

20. You forgot "If a near curio status 22 revolver is used on some famous dude "

You need to reinstate the AWB ban on machine guns .

[AtheistCrusader]

14. Headline Correction: Philidelphia officer Lt. Vincent Testa is a moron.

Outgunned my ass. His department can buy the ILLEGAL WEAPON, ILLEGALLY POSSESSED by a FELON that they encountered for about $700, and they can legally carry it, where I cannot, despite a clean background.

Apparently philly cops are stupid.

[jody]

15. Thanks, OP gives anti-RKBA group opportunities to post incredibly ignorant statements about guns. nt

[spin]

16. The police where I live have access to fully auto assault rifles ...

M16s to be exact.

Not at all uncommon in Florida.


Citrus County detectives learn to fire M-16s.

[east texas lib]

17. Everybody says that after they get their ass kicked...

We wuz surrounded! There must'a been hunnerds of 'em!

[Callisto32]

18. Blackburn said. "When you see that type of firepower - those weapons in one central location - ...

its uncommon."


Apparently, this guy never leaves Philly. Not unusual for big-city dwellers, it seems. A mere 140 miles away, "that type of firepower" is everywhere. Somehow, we manage to keep from shooting each other. Murders are so rare, they are in the news for months.

Philadelphia has bigger problems than guns, and they need to be addressed.

[Jdub4abluenc]

19. Outgunned?

Most of the cops I know (or know of) in the Metro Charlotte NC & rural surounding areas personnaly own an AR or something similar (Sig 556/Mini...). I would imagine that is quite the same through out the rest of the country? I have come to assume there are AR's in most every patrol cars trunk; if not - I think their deparment is doing the officers a disservice. But, along with equipment; goes training. Officer or not; you should be personally responsible for every round you fire.

[oneshooter]

21. I know of several Sheriffs Deputies here that have scoped M1a1's

in the back of their cruisers. Many carry AR-15's and Mini-14's as a back up weapon. I know of at least one that has a M1 Garand with a bando of AP in his cruiser. All of these are personally owned and allowed by the dept..

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[Pavulon]

23. That is awesome.

that the m1 garand is still carried by an armed professional. It is a superb weapon and I have witnessed "old bastards" hit at 600m with open sights.

[oneshooter]

24. He uses it to shoot the Garand course at the local High Power matches.

He is both proficient and comfortable with it. And since I got him a adjustable gas plug he uses commercial soft point in it.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[east texas lib]

25. They also seem to have a great fondness for 1911's...

You go with what works.

[Fuerfrei]

22. That is odd.

Given that most Police Officers are now given high powered rifles to keep in their trunks, they should not be outgunned. The only way that would be possible is with illegal automatic weapons, and even then, they'd be on near even footing.

[SteveM]

26. Nothing new here: veteran felon out of jail & doing some punkin'...

There has always been a push for "newer & bigger" weapons for police departments. Gatling designed and built a "small" Gatling gun -- designed for civilian police forces; the New York Times even had one mounted on its rooftop to repel rioters who threatened its building. Thompson, whose sub-machine gun was invented between wars, thereby missing out on military contracts during a period of military cutbacks, actively promoted the FULL-AUTO weapon to civilian police forces. Nothing new here.