WikiLeaks exposes true origins of Mexican cartels' weaponry (Hint: It's not due to the "mythical"

[Bold Lib]

WikiLeaks exposes true origins of Mexican cartels' weaponry (Hint: It's not due to the "mythical" gun show loophole)

According to State Department cables, the Mexican drug cartels are getting their weaponry from an international operation, with the cartels getting military weapons through various government channels. Some of those weapons did, in fact, come from the United States, but they weren't the result of the "gun show loophole" straw-man purchases or any of the other individual criminal acts anti-gun groups would have you believe.

Large quantities of those US weapons -everything from rifles to machine guns, grenade launchers, explosives and ammunition, came from purchases by the government of Mexico from the United States. As the underpaid, undermanned and undermined soldiers of the Mexican army skipped out on the military to put their training to work for the cartels, they took their issued-arms with them.

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7668

______________________________________________________________________________

Seems to be a rash of truth coming out lately.

[TheWraith]

1. Here's a good example.

This is the aftermath of a bust on a small cartel house in Mexico. At the bottom of the photo you'll see a pair of US milspec M4 rifles in the SBR configuration. You can't buy those at a gun shop. Nor can you buy the 40mm grenade launchers underslung on the M16s in the center of the photo, or the green and yellow M381 40mm high explosive grenades you see to their right.

[RSillsbee]

22. Don't you know every thing in that picture (including the dope)

is available at Wal Mart ?


Oh come on. do I really have to do this? :sarcasm:

[Ken_Fish]

2. HK got caught dumping g36 rifles there. Obviously not from the US

as HK will not sell them here. However they have no compunction selling them to murders.. Ironic.

[jpak]

3. You cannot buy machine guns and grenades from US gun shops - but

Thousands of guns purchased in the US by Mexican gun runners are seized from Mexican crime scenes each year.

The Mexican government turned over the serial numbers to the ATF and they were bought in the US.

yup

[Bold Lib]

4. You may find the CBS report to be very informative

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7357550n

yup

[Ken_Fish]

5. There are thousands of cars stolen from Phoenix there too. We gonna ban cars?

Mexico needs to clean up its own shit. Rights of US citizens have no bearing on their mess.

[one-eyed fat man]

7. You need to upgrade

Maybe KV will lend you his...

[jpak]

8. Umm...ya know Wayne LaPierre is driving that - don't you?

:rofl:

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Maine_Nurse]

10. And the far largest percentage of the traceable ones were not civilian sold weapons. Yup, Yup, Yup.

They were, in fact, government-authorized sales.

[jpak]

11. Not so - tens of thousands were traceable to US gun shops/shows

http://mediamatters.org/blog/201102250023

yup

[LAGC]

12. Let's pretend most of the guns in Mexico really did come from straw purchases from dealers.

What does that have to do with the "gun-show loophole?" You could ban all private sales but you still wouldn't be able to stop straw purchases.

Let's say gun owners agreed to compromise on a one-rifle-a-month limit.

What would we get in return? National CCW Reciprocity? Repeal of the NFA?

Lets put it all on the table, jpak. Let's wheel and deal.

[jpak]

13. What you get in return are the rights of colleges & municipalities to ban guns in public places

ATF notification of mutiple gun sales

More ATF agents

and a ban on 30 round magazines

and close the gun show loophole

that's what you get

yup

[LAGC]

15. C'mon now... the whole point of compromise is "We give you something, you give us something."

How can you expect gun owners to meet you half-way if you're not willing play ball with us?

And you wonder why you can't get any gun control legislation passed at all.

[jpak]

16. I am a gun owner and I will not compromise with republic gun insanity

nope

[LAGC]

17. Here's a prediction:

Democrats will regain the majority AND we'll see more pro-gun legislation be passed.

Its not a Republican issue -- Democrats in rural areas can't win if they are anti-gun.

[rl6214]

26. Yup, may very well have come from these republics

Panama (est. 1903)
Portugal (est. 5 October 1910)
Azerbaijan (est. 18 May 1918, lost independence to Soviet Russia on 28 April 1920), first democratic parliamentary republic in the Muslim world
Commonwealth of the Philippines (1935–1946)
Second Spanish Republic (de jure: 1931–1939) (de facto: 1931-1975)
Fourth French Republic (1946–1958)
Republic of the Philippines (1946, fully independent from the United States of America, inaugurated on 4 July 1946)
Albania (est. 1946)
Ireland (est. 1949)
India (est. 1950)
Fifth French Republic (since 1958)
Algeria (est. 1962)
Singapore (est. 1965)
Afghanistan (est. 1973)
Nepal (est. 2008)
Zimbabwe


YUP

YUP

YUP
:rofl:

[Tuesday Afternoon]

33. really? I truly do find this very hard to believe

yup.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

21. Those are things that side with gun control arguments...

Are you one of those guys that gets other people gifts that are actually bought for themselves? :rofl:

[Maine_Nurse]

14. Less than 12% of the traceable ones...

which is WAY less than 12% of the total ones submitted. Obviously, anything purchased at a gunshop is traceable, so the 88% of traceable weapons that didn't come from US gunshops may have come from authorized government transfers since those are also traceable through serial numbers from the manufacturers. The untraceable ones are likely from black market sales from south/central American countries.

[Glassunion]

18. OMG! Where do you find these?

I lost count of the lies...

"More than 73,000 firearms have been seized in drug raids or recovered from the scenes of cartel gun battles in Mexico since December 2006."
The above statement could be true, but I cannot validate it.

"According to law enforcement officials, "90 percent of the weapons that could be traced were determined to have originated from various sources within the U.S."
The above statement is a lie. Flat out lie.

"Of the 73,000 illegal firearms seized in Mexico since December 2006, officials estimate that 90% originated in the U.S."
Again, a flat out lie.

Look at it like this... A little history on the myth of the 70%, 80% and 90% number the media tosses around from time to time.

The Mexican government recovers 29,000 guns from crime scenes. Out of all of those guns they only "submit" 11,000 guns to be traced. They only "submitted" less then half of the guns they recovered because the US BATFE would be unable to trace firearms that did not originate from the US. So if the Mexican government saw Russian, South Korean or Chinese markings and serial numbers, they did not submit them to the US for tracing because we would not have been able to trace them, as they would not have originated in the US.

So far if 29,000 firearms = 100% of all firearms recovered.
11,000 selected for tracing = 37.9% of all firearms recovered.

Out of those 11,000 firearms selected for tracing about to 6,000 were successfully traced and of those, 90% or 5,114 to be exact, according to testimony in Congress by William Hoover were found to have come from the U.S. This is where the 90% number mis-quoted in the media comes from.

So now we are down to 5,114 firearms that were recovered that have been traced to sources in the US.

So far if 29,000 firearms = 100% of all firearms recovered.
11,000 selected for tracing = 37.9% of all firearms recovered.
5,114 traced to US sources = 17.6% of all firearms recovered.

Now I would like to redirect you to http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/12/AR2010121202663.html?hpid=topnews&sid=ST2010121203267

In the article they discuss the originating sources in the US for "some" of the firearms that were traced. In the article they discuss the Top 12 retailers linked to firearms recovered in Mexico. The number #1 guy on the list with 4 stores had 115 firearm traces back to his 4 stores. According to the article the rest on the top 12 list had traces in the double digits... Not in the thousands.

You also need to keep in mind that a good portion of those 5,114 firearms did not come from the US civilian market. They were sold legitimately and shipped to the government of Mexico. These sales are approved by the U.S. government for use by the Mexican military service. The guns end up in Mexico that way. So all of the fully auto versions... They are not smuggled in across the river but wrapped up for sale legaly approved by the US Government.

What happens when more than Mexican 150,000 soldiers deserted in the past six years? What happens when many of them take their US manufactured firearms with them? How would this look on the trace data?

http://www.justice.gov/oig/reports/ATF/e1101.pdf (See Page 1 "Background" footnote #7) But I do recommend reading the entire DOJ evaluation of the ATF. It will answer many questions.

Also, how many of the firearms that originated in the US civilian market were intentionally allowed to enter the black market by the ATF?

[Hoopla Phil]

28. WOW. Glad to see such intellectual DUer's here!!! Thank you! n/t

[beevul]

20. Nope. Sorry but NOPE>

"And the far largest percentage of the traceable ones were not civilian sold weapons."

To which YOU reply:

"Not so..."

Sorry but NOPE.

In a five year span there were 66,028 total trace requests, only 18,585 were successful­ly traced.

Just over 1/4 of all requests were traceable.

And ,less than a quarter of crime guns transferre­d to the Mexican Attorney General’s Office in 2008 were submitted to ATF for tracing.

http://www.justice.gov/oig/reports/ATF/e1101.pdf


Checkmate.

[RSillsbee]

23. If no background checks are being done at gun shows

How are you tracking guns back to them?

[Maine_Nurse]

24. All dealers at gunshows have to conduct background checks...

it is only private individuals who do not. In fact, private parties are prohibited from conducting background checks through NICS.
What is being "traced" are weapons from US manufacturers that are sold to gunshops/distributors for the civilian market. Background checks actually have nothing to do with their tracing. Manufacturers keep very detailed records of the disposition of their products, whether they go to retailers or government agencies/police/foreign governments, etc. The untraceable weapons come from manufacturers not in the United States (or most other regulated western countries). Most likely, non-serialized AK's/AR's etc which are manufactured by governments/companies either under license by the US government (the way Egypt manufactures their own M1 Abrams tanks) for their own use or as illegal copies.

[RSillsbee]

29. I am aware that FFLs must conduct background checks for every sale

regardless of venue. I was addressing the "Gunshow loophole" meme

[Hoopla Phil]

30. psychometry?

Psychometry is a psychic ability in which a person can sense or "read" the history of an object by touching it. Such a person can receive impressions from an object by holding it in his/her hands or, perhaps, touching it to the forehead. Such impressions can be perceived as images, sounds, smells, tastes - even emotions.
http://paranormal.about.com/cs/espinformation/a/aa063003.htm


Just a guess, but it seems about par for this course.

[Hoopla Phil]

27. So have you watched the CBS report? I know it's been posted several

times for you education. . . .
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7357550n

[AtheistCrusader]

31. He or she said 'largest percentage'. Reading comprehension for the win.

I love the response you post, with a link that shows a table laden with shit like 40mm grenades, along with what could be actual select-fire military M-16's.

Nice job there pal.

[Hoopla Phil]

32. yup

LMAO

[krispos42]

19. Doubtless the Mexican government says

"Well, good think we have tight gun laws here in Mexico! Otherwise it would be even worse!"





The Mexican government deliberately chose to create a economic vacuum by making gun purchases and gun ownership very difficult. They knew when they did it that nature abhors a vacuum and that guns would begin to flow into Mexico through illegal channels. They knew it then, and they know it now. Since nobody in power in Mexico is even considering, say, liberalizing gun laws there, they have to have made the decision that "this is the best possible course we can pursue".

Likewise, the US government deliberately chose to create an economic vacuum by making recreational drugs illegal to own or use. We knew when we did it that nature abhors a vacuum and that drugs would begin to flow into the US through illegal channels. In fact the CIA even facilitated cocaine shipments in the 80's. We knew it then, and we know it now. Since nobody in power in the US is even seriously considering liberalizing drug laws here, we have to have made the decision that "this is the best possible course of action we can pursue".



This may come as a surprise, but I want less violent deaths, too. Unlike guns, which are durable goods, I see the quickest way to achieve that goal is to legalize the consumable goods like drugs rather than try to eliminate a good (firearms) that have an indefinite shelf life. Since this would sharply reduce gang activity, the homicide and other violent crime rates would plummet... which would as a matter of proportion also reduce gun-related deaths.


I don't think you care too much about that, though. Your goal, I believe, is a society that is largely disarmed for its own good because you believe it is inherently good. Lowering the overall and gun-related homicide and other violent crime rate without changing the gun ownership rate would be a hollow victory for you because it would discredit your fundamental principal that disarmament is good.

[rl6214]

25. They really didn't need to turn over the seriel numbers to the ATF

The ATF supplied the weapons in the first place, they already had the seriel numbers.

YUP

YUP

YUP

[Starboard Tack]

6. Oh boy, that's a relief!