Bar owners coming up with ways to deter gun carriers ...

[spin]

Bar owners coming up with ways to deter gun carriers
6:19 AM, May. 29, 2011

LANCASTER -- Kim Carpenter has worked in Lancaster's bars for 17 years, but a proposed change to Ohio's concealed carry law to allow guns inside bars is enough to give her pause about her future.

"It very well might be the end of my bartending career," said Carpenter, who manages Citi Bar and The Orange Carpet Lounge. "I see too many (situations) where 'he bumped into me at this little table as a reason to punch somebody else in the face.' What happens when they have a gun in their pant pocket?"

***snip***

Citi Bar on West Main Street and Orange Carpet Lounge on North Columbus Street already have bought metal detector wands to ward off customers who are carrying weapons, Carpenter said. emphasis added
http://www.lancastereaglegazette.com/article/20110529/NEWS01/105290302/Bar-owners-coming-up-ways-deter-gun-carriers

[Drale]

1. There are two places where guns do not belong period

Sporting events and bars.

[MineralMan]

2. Oddly, I tend to avoid both, and for the same reasons.

Both have an excess of people who have consumed more alcohol than they should. That never leads to good things.

[Liberal Veteran]

3. And elementary schools.

[eqfan592]

21. Yet legal carry in bars and schools that allow it....

....hasn't been an issue. So many folks say that carry "shouldn't be allowed there" yet the evidence points to it not being an issue.

[Starboard Tack]

75. Apparently it is an issue for many who work or go to bars.

It doesn't take a bunch of shootings to make it an issue.

[rrneck]

76. Just because it's an issue

to someone should that concern be codified into law?

If not, what recourse is available?

[eqfan592]

83. Exactly. (nt)

[Starboard Tack]

85. No, it doesn't have to be codified into law

The publican has a right to decide who he lets into his establishment. No shoes, no shirts, no whatever.

[rrneck]

91. What of the patrons? What should they do? nt

[Starboard Tack]

97. Find a a bar that wants them

[rrneck]

98. If there isnt a posted policy

the bar DOES want them. What then?

[Starboard Tack]

99. Then there is no policy unless it becomes law.

If there is no local or state ban on carrying in a bar, then it is up to the publican to post or not. And if he wants to wand them, it is his right.

[rrneck]

100. Then what do the patrons do? nt

[GreenStormCloud]

101. Go somewhere else.

This is one of the rare times I agree with Starboard Tack.

[YllwFvr]

104. yep

and take your friends and family with you to your new watering hole

[Starboard Tack]

106. Which patrons?

Those allowed in enjoy in peace, those refused find somewhere they're welcome. There are plenty of bars.

[rrneck]

108. You know what I'm talking about.

If the bar allows guns what recourse do the patrons who don't like have?

[Starboard Tack]

109. I really am not following your train of thought here, but I'll try

By recourse, I assume you mean options. If so, those who do not want to be around guns can either seek out a bar that bans them, or take their chances. Personally, I don't see it as that big of a deal. When I go to any bar, I try to be aware of my surroundings, but the truth is, there are no guarantees.

[rrneck]

110. That's a step in the right direction.

"Take your business elsewhere" is pretty much to be expected. That appears to be the consensus. But is that enough? Reducing human relationships and cultural differences to a mercantile exchange? "Either do what I want and if I can't get the state to force others to comply then I'll use economic coersion".

Sounds likely we're playing the other sides game.

[Starboard Tack]

111. Some bars still allow smoking in New Orleans and probably other places

Many have smoking areas, usually outside. It really isn't a big deal and I don't see any of it, guns or smoke as "Reducing human relationships and cultural differences to a mercantile exchange"
Everyone has lots of choices.

[rrneck]

112. Could you make the same argument for

racial segregation? The difference is that smoking has measurable bad effects on those around them. If it were a felony to light a cigarette if your life wasn't in danger your analogy would work.

It's a sort of "coersive consumerism" that attempts to settle differences in personal preference with economic power.

[Starboard Tack]

113. "It's a sort of "coersive consumerism"

that attempts to settle differences in personal preference with economic power."
I think this is more about dress code and the right of an individual to decide who hw wants to do business with based on that person's behavior, not their race, religion or political views.

[WatsonT]

34. And swimming pools

Water isn't good for them.

[YllwFvr]

103. When I work my first sporting event I will leave my gun at home

though I imagine my chief may be upset it.

Make you feel better?

[bluestateguy]

4. I'm pretty pro-gun and pro right to carry

but I think a bar should be one place where the bar owner has the discretion to make his/her own policy for the establishment.

[Hardrada]

5. Check guns at door and leave with bartender. Like in old saloons (Some of them).

[gejohnston]

19. In the old movies, there were references to "coat check girls" in establishements

whose job was just that, but only coats. You maybe on to something. Have a gun check person that safely stores you pistol. If you have too much to drink, he unloads and clears your weapon before pouring you and it in a cab. Hey, with this economy, every little bit helps.
But I think it would still be a felony to drink while armed.

[YllwFvr]

105. drink at all?

or get drunk?

[gejohnston]

107. I don't know the law there. My understanding is that one drink is against the rules

But since you check it in, you are not armed at the time. Or would that count? Either way, I don't see the system being set up.

[Scuba]

6. +1

[petronius]

14. This law does provide that discretion - I think most states do, actually (nt)

[WatsonT]

35. Every property owner has the discretion to set his/her own policy

for his/her own property.

[X_Digger]

63. There is no legislative proposal that takes the choice away from bar owners.

The legislation in Ohio puts the choice in bar owners' hands.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

7. Just a question

"I see too many (situations) where 'he bumped into me at this little table as a reason to punch somebody else in the face.' What happens when they have a gun in their pant pocket?"

- How do you know that they don't?

[spin]

8. If we ever get rid of the TSA they might find jobs patting down bar customers. (n/t)

[Taitertots]

9. All they need is a sign that says no guns allowed

It is still illegal to be drunk, in a bar, carrying a gun.

[TheCowsCameHome]

10. ....and someone will start a boycott because the owner is anti - 2A

Just as sure as day follows night.

[Taitertots]

11. So... If they want to take that position they are going to have to deal with the consequences

Pissing off customers is usually a bad business decision.

[TheCowsCameHome]

13. Then just don't go there. Why fuck with the owner's business

by boycotting just because he or she doesn't meet your criteria of what a barkeeper should allow.

Live and let live, man. Go somewhere else and drink where you feel more welcome.

[petronius]

15. Isn't that what a boycott is? Not patronizing a business, for a specific reason?

:shrug:

[TheCowsCameHome]

17. There is a difference between not patronizing

and organizing a group to picket and otherwise try and keep would-be customers from entering.

If I personally choose to not patronize a business for whatever reason I don't consider it to be a boycott. I just prefer to do business elsewhere.

[gejohnston]

18. sounds like a distinction without a difference

or more like a boycott vs protest. Either way, I don't picture us picketing bars. Did Brady picket Starbucks?

[TheCowsCameHome]

22. No, but some have suggested previously picketing bars that don't welcome guns.

That's where it gets stupid.

[petronius]

25. Some where? Some here?

All I've seen in this forum are comments that various posters would not patronize a business that behaved in a way they disapproved of or where they felt unwelcome - similar sentiments are regularly expressed across DU for a variety of reasons...

[one-eyed fat man]

53. Only ones organizing pickets I see....

Is Paul Helmke and the folks over at Brady.

http://www.facebook.com/notes/protest-easy-guns/please-join-starbucks-protest-today-in-california-at-starbucks-where-open-carry-/390627146494



As for me, I just take my business and my money elsewhere. No need to make a fuss at all.

[one-eyed fat man]

52. Here's an image to help jog your memory ;)

http://www.bradycampaign.org/media/press/view/1219/

That's how it works, Brady organizes and pickets Starbucks and they are "praiseworthy." A gun owner decides not to patronize a business, and they are vilified as "mean, vengeful psychopaths with a dangerous attitude...eom"

[AtheistCrusader]

61. AHAHAHAA I forgot about that.

Turnabout and all...

[spin]

28. The definition of boycott is ...

To abstain from or act together in abstaining from using, buying, or dealing with as an expression of protest or disfavor or as a means of coercion.http://www.thefreedictionary.com/boycott

Nowhere in that definition is picketing mentioned.

When Florida passed "shall issue" concealed carry in 1987 there were many "no-guns" posted on the doors of stores. I never once heard of or witnessed a picket line in front of the store. People with concealed carry permits simply took their business elsewhere and often called the store manager or owner and told him of their decision.

In three to six months, "No Guns" signs were rare. I can't remember the last time I seen one on a commercial establishment in Florida.

[PavePusher]

31. Who's been picketting?

Oh yeah, the Brady fools....

[beevul]

74. And would you apply that equally?

"Then just don't go there. Why fuck with the owner's business..."

[benEzra]

16. That's the definition of a boycott, isn't it?

Live and let live, man. Go somewhere else and drink where you feel more welcome.

That's the definition of a boycott, isn't it? Besides, the big 2ndA issue is primarily with restaurants, not so much bars.

FWIW, bars (and restaurants) do have the option of posting no-guns signs, and if they are wanding customers then they darn sure need to post a sign. I'm going to be a lot less peeved by seeing a no-guns sign in a restaurant and having to go somewhere else, than I am if there is no sign but some guy goes TSA on me and my family. That will get you boycotted.

[Taitertots]

20. Boycott =/= Picket

They are not synonyms.

[TheCowsCameHome]

23. Would you picket a place that posts a "No Guns" sign?

Yes or no.

[Euromutt]

24. Picket? No.

Just hand the duty manager a "no legal carry, no custom" (aka "no guns, no money") card and take your business elsewhere.

[spin]

29. There is no reason to picket such an establishment ...

people who have concealed carry permits just take their business elsewhere and sometimes call the owner or manager and inform him of this fact.

People with concealed weapons permits are very polite.

[Callisto32]

58. No.

I would not patronize that business, tell all my gun-owning friends/relatives about it, and encourage them to not patronize it either.

[Callisto32]

57. That's what a boycott is....

[Starboard Tack]

77. I wouldn't worry about any boycotts.

First, it would expose them as toters. Second, if smokers could handle it, why would a bar owner worry about one percent who tote. Cop bars will always be the exception, but who's gonna cause trouble there?

[spin]

12. What's wrong with that?

If most people wanted to go to a bar and not worry that they might be sitting next to a person with a legally concealed firearm they could go to the bar with the "no-guns" sign. All that they would have to worry about in the bar without the sign is the people who are illegally carrying a concealed firearm.

It would be interesting to see which bar attracted the most people.

[PavePusher]

30. Really? I'm sure you can point to a bar that has been boycotted for this?

Bars being slightly different than coffee shops, y'know....

[WatsonT]

36. So people shouldn't be allowed to boycott businesses with policies they don't approve of?

Seems like arguing for Jim Crow laws on the basis of "well if mine is the only bar banning blacks I'll get in trouble, but if everyone is doing it then I won't stand out".

Just ban them and suffer the consequences (if any).

[TheCowsCameHome]

37. Oh, no - go ahead and boycott. If it floats your boat, have at it.

Whatever makes you feel goooood, man.

[spin]

40. I don't have to boycott, because I rarely see any "no-guns" signs on businesses ...

in Florida.

Of course, we have had "shall issue" concealed carry since 1987.

Business owners have lost their fear of honest people who legally carry firearms. It didn't take long for them to realize that people who have carry permits are not criminals.

[WatsonT]

45. Ok, so what's the problem here?

If a bar owner wants no legal guns on the premises, he can say so.

If some people don't go in there because of that this is their right.

Likewise if some people refuse to go in to a bar unless they outright ban guns that is their right as well.

So again, what's the problem?

[Callisto32]

60. There shouldn't be one.

Property rights should take care of it, but anti-RKBA folks can't generally bring themselves to let people decide on their own; hence the tens of thousands of gun laws that always need to be augmented.

[Callisto32]

59. It's not about feeling good.

This is something anti RKBA folks can have a difficult time understanding.

It is about attempting to use your own small amount of market force to create a business atmosphere where legally armed people are welcome and not unreasonably feared. This may be difficult for prohibitionists to understand, as well, since it doesn't involve using the jack-boot of the state to force someone's preferred flavor of social policy.

[GreenStormCloud]

102. No problem. The bar owner is already chasing off the gun carriers.

So if the gun carriers boycott him then what is the difference?

[jpak]

69. The GOP/NRA will picket and harass them - and put them out of business

yup

[Euromutt]

26. So why weren't they doing this previously?

As discntnt_irny_srcsm rightly alluded earlier, there was nothing to physically prevent someone from carrying illegally in alcohol-serving establishments, and the kind of person who's liable to shoot someone over some minor slight like having some beer sloshed on his shirt very likely isn't the kind of person who would obey legal restrictions on carrying in the first place.

Hell, if anything, having customers carrying might actually cool down things a little. In his article "Happiness is a worn gun," describes very well the restraining effect of having a firearm on your person (in this case after having been yelled at by a panhandler)

I’ve never been one to throw down because someone called me a name. But it’s possible that in the old days I’d have yelled something back. At the very least, I’d have felt my blood pressure spike.
This time, I didn’t become angry or even annoyed <...> Rage wasn’t an option, because I had no way of knowing where it would end, and somehow my brain and body sensed that.

I've been there myself. When some guy got angry at me in a grocery store parking lot (I won't go into the reasons, but suffice to say the guy was talking in a raised voice and giving off some very aggressive body language), I really wanted to tell him to go and fuck himself, but because I was carrying a concealed handgun, I felt myself compelled to avoid doing anything that could escalate the situation, and I maintained what I hope was a calm outward appearance and remained polite in my choice of words throughout; I believe the strongest phrase I used was "This is none of your concern and I will thank you to mind your own business."

[spin]

27. An armed society is indeed a polite society.

[TheCowsCameHome]

38. DUzy.

Rec.

[oneshooter]

32. I like the Texas 51% law.

If a business makes 51% or more of its total sales from "in house" sales then it has to post a large red 51% sign in front. No CHL allowed. If they don't but do not want legal concealed carriers business, then they can post a legal 30.06 sign at all entrances.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[spin]

39. In Florida you can't carry in the bar portion of an establishment ...

which has worked out well.

I thought there might be serious problems from allowing legal concealed carry in bars in the states that allow it, but I haven't heard of any rashes of shootouts at bars.

[jpak]

71. What a stupid law - why can they just say -"keep yer fucking gun outta my bar"

:shrug:

[oneshooter]

79. Because that does not have the weight of law behind it.

[WatsonT]

33. A posted sign will remove all legally carried guns from the premises.

With 100% effectiveness.

[spin]

41. Yup, and also all the money that licensed owners have to spend. (n/t)

[WatsonT]

46. Yeah I'm really not seeing the issue here

if there were a law on the table requiring private property owners allow others to carry on their property I would oppose it.

Otherwise there is no problem whatsoever. Seems a lot of fuss over nothing.

[ileus]

44. Works for me....I see a sign I either find another place, or store my EDC

[ileus]

42. All they have to do is put up a sign...

[krispos42]

43. So if I want to target a bunch of peple that are incapacitated and unarmed...

...and on a regular, predictable schedule, then I guess I know exactly where to go.

Citi Bar on W. Main St, or Orange Carpet Lounge on N. Columbus St.

[Hoyt]

47. Yep, there are boogeymen contemplating that as we post. Let's be real here.

Most criminals don't target groups of people. And if they do, do we really want some amateur gun toter playing cowboy?

Do you actually consider the 95+% who DON'T CARRY, "incapacitated?"

[gejohnston]

48. shall we list the situations where people were herded to the back room to be executed?

May be rare, but more common than your amateur playing cowboy hitting the wrong people.

[Hoyt]

50. Yea, go ahead. Also, what's going to happen when a cowboy pulls a gun and starts a shoot out?

Give us a break. People don't get herded into a back room in a bar very often. Less often does some cowboy save the day.

I'll take my chances that they lock us in, or one of the herd figures out another way out of situation (because a gun obsessed public carrier ain't likely to save "us" (really himself).

[gejohnston]

54. Lock in?

Then the charges go from just armed robbery becomes kidnapping and armed robbery. The chances of being just locked in is even more rare to nonexistent compared to being executed.

[Hoyt]

81. Better than murder and it happens often. Well, unless some gun toting cowboy decides to draw and

gets everyone killed. I guess you've never heard of hostage situations?

[gejohnston]

92. If there are no cop cars outside, it is not a hostage situation.

Otherwise what would be the point? Unless you are a sociopath, the idea is to get in and out with the money. That is the most common. In which case, the smart thing to do is be a good witness for the cops. I'm not going through a legal hassle and mental trauma over some multi national corporation's money.

[krispos42]

49. And most gun-owners don't shoot (much less kill) a single person... ever.

Yet "most" is not enough for you, but it's suppose to be enough for me?



How about your basic mugger looking for a target-rich environment.... such as a crowd leaving a bar at last call?



You got a big sign on your house declaring it a gun-free zone? Why or why not?

[Hoyt]

51. Get a grip. 95% of us walk around with that big sign, without fear.

[one-eyed fat man]

55. Calling bullshit!

"...95% of us walk around with that big sign, without fear."

Post a picture of you in the T-shirt!

[Hoyt]

56. Actually, I'd love a T-Shirt like that. Very cool!!!!!!! You guys ought to try going gunless.

[AtheistCrusader]

62. I've been told by some types that would require removal of my penis.

And then, how would I open jars?

[Hoyt]

64. Most would find going gunless actually enhances . . . . . .

[cleanhippie]

67. Ahh, is that what you are telling yourself?

It all makes perfect sense now.


:rofl:

[Hoyt]

80. Better than you guys -- like the poster above -- who believe gunless is synonymous with castration.

I'm telling you, go gunless. It'll take ten years off you.

[friendly_iconoclast]

84. "I'm telling you, go gunless. It'll take ten years off you." And just *how* would you know that?

Your personal life is, of course, entirely your own business- unless you choose to offer it up for discussion (as you have here).


Beleiving one's own personal experience is a general condition of the universe is rather narcisstic.

[Hoyt]

86. I've seen it happen to other habitual toters. Try it. 95+% who don't tote will thank you too.

You'll be a pound or two lighter too.

[friendly_iconoclast]

87. We are to take it on faith, then? In what way do you differ from Harold Camping?

He, too, is publicly certain of his accuracy and authority. I find you both equally credible...

[Hoyt]

89. 95+% feel the same way I do -- lighter, less obsessed and building a better, unarmed society.

Camping didn't have that many believers other than TBaggers (who are often gun carriers too).

[friendly_iconoclast]

95. 95+% have not yet publicly disagreed with you. That does not mean they agree with you.

I could claim with equal authority (and accuracy) that since 99.99% of Americans have not as of yet disputed my claim to be

the handsomest man in North America, I must be the handsomest man in North America....

[AtheistCrusader]

90. I don't believe it is synonymous with castration. That's the thing.

I'm making fun of an extension of the tired meme you are recycling here. That having a firearm is related to insecurity/etc.

[one-eyed fat man]

65. Kinda tough

Job requirement and all.

[one-eyed fat man]

66. Order it here.....

http://www.cafepress.com/gunfree01.57977



Here's another one...

http://www.zazzle.com/unarmed_liberal_please_dont_hurt_me_tshirt-235243932473602719

Free shipping from those guys if your order is over $50, so get two.

[krispos42]

88. *snort*

:rofl:

[jpak]

72. Its fascinating how the criminal mind works

I was just thinking that myself!

:rofl:

[jpak]

68. Hooray! - the GOP/NRA creates jobs for metal detector factories but kills jobs in bars

morans

yup

[eqfan592]

70. ......right.

What jobs did it kill? Somebody leaving a job by choice does not equate to a job lost, as somebody (a more rational thinking person in this case) will step up to take their place.

[jpak]

73. "It very well might be the end of my bartending career," said Carpenter

that one

yup

[eqfan592]

82. lol, I left my last job for a new career...

....but that doesn't equate to my last job vanishing into thin air, it was filled by somebody else. Sorry, but that is just patently stupid.

[friendly_iconoclast]

78. And the Bradys wanted to kill jobs at Starbucks. What's the difference?

[Tejas]

93. "Hey, my bar is too dangerous to begin with!!!"

"It very well might be the end of my bartending career," said Carpenter, who manages Citi Bar and The Orange Carpet Lounge. "I see too many (situations) where 'he bumped into me at this little table as a reason to punch somebody else in the face.' What happens when they have a gun in their pant pocket?"



YUP, nice advertisement for your establishment(s) there, you go girl! :rofl:

[friendly_iconoclast]

96. The problem with her bars isn't with guns, it's with the customers.... n/t

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

94. Just post a $2 sign... problem solved.