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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-11 11:42 AM
Original message
California Shotgun and Rifle Registration Bill Up For Vote ...


California Shotgun and Rifle Registration Bill Up For Vote
Wednesday, June 1st, 2011 at 8:38 AM



SACRAMENTO, CA --(Ammoland.com)- AB 809 (Feuer), legislation which would require a permanent registry of long guns – including all shotguns and rifles – will be taken up on the Assembly Floor this week.

Under AB 809, those who purchase, or even transfer a shotgun or rifle will be required to permanently register that firearm by submitting their name, address, place of birth, phone number, occupation, and sex to the California Department of Justice.

Under current law, all information provided when filling out paperwork for the purchase of a shotgun or rifle must be destroyed shortly after the ten day waiting period.
http://www.ammoland.com/2011/06/01/california-shotgun-and-rifle-registration-bill-up-for-vote/


I like Florida's approach to gun registration.


The 2010 Florida Statutes(including Special Session A)

790.335 Prohibition of registration of firearms; electronic records.—
(1) LEGISLATIVE FINDINGS AND INTENT.—
(a) The Legislature finds and declares that:
1. The right of individuals to keep and bear arms is guaranteed under both the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution and s. 8, Art. I of the State Constitution.
2. A list, record, or registry of legally owned firearms or law-abiding firearm owners is not a law enforcement tool and can become an instrument for profiling, harassing, or abusing law-abiding citizens based on their choice to own a firearm and exercise their Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms as guaranteed under the United States Constitution. Further, such a list, record, or registry has the potential to fall into the wrong hands and become a shopping list for thieves.
3. A list, record, or registry of legally owned firearms or law-abiding firearm owners is not a tool for fighting terrorism, but rather is an instrument that can be used as a means to profile innocent citizens and to harass and abuse American citizens based solely on their choice to own firearms and exercise their Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms as guaranteed under the United States Constitution.
emphasis added
4. Law-abiding firearm owners whose names have been illegally recorded in a list, record, or registry are entitled to redress.
http://archive.flsenate.gov/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0790/Sections/0790.335.html

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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-11 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
1. I hate Florida's approach to gun registration
"Laws" on the books which are naught but empty pontificating.

Thom Jeff is rolling over. :eyes:
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-11 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Explain how gun registration is a valuable tool for law enforcement ...
or in the War Against Terror. Criminals and terrorists don't bother to register their firearms.

As for Thomas Jefferson:

"One loves to possess arms, though they hope never to have occasion for them."
--Thomas Jefferson to George Washington, 1796. ME 9:341

"A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives a moderate exercise to the Body, it gives boldness, enterprise, and independence to the mind . . . Let your gun therefore be the constant companion of your walks."
--Thomas Jefferson, Letter to his nephew Peter Carr, August 19, 1785.

"No freeman shall be debarred the use of arms (within his own lands or tenements)."
--Thomas Jefferson: Draft Virginia Constitution with (his note added), 1776. Papers, 1:353

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms . . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes . . . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
--Thomas Jefferson, quoting Cesare Beccaria in On Crimes and Punishment (1764).


source: http://www.hematite.com/dragon/jefferson2nd.html
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-11 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Irrelevant.
Opinions shouldn't be on the books masquerading as law.
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-11 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Almost all law, at its root, is based on opinion.
Law is the People saying "We think you should or shouldn't do such-and-so", sometimes based on fact, sometimes philosophy, sometimes mere whim.

Always has been, ever will be.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-11 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #5
17. Difference between "based on" and "all opinion".
This law is empty. Devoid. No legal merit whatsoever. NRA talking points.

Bleh.
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-11 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. "No legal merit whatsoever."
Protecting a Civil Right against historically factual events is now "No legal merit whatsoever."? Huh, there are a lot of laws that need to be rescinded, I guess...
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Callisto32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-03-11 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #17
25. The government limiting its own power is devoid of legal merit?
Fascinating.

You do know that the part that is posted in the OP is just legislative findings...the substantive law is found through the link.
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-11 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. Nice dodge ...
There are good arguments for registration of firearms just as there are good arguments against registration.

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GreenStormCloud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-11 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #3
13. Many laws have a "Findings and Intent" section.
It serves as an aid to judges in how to interpret the following law. If you will click on the link you will see the entire bill which include the PROHIBITIONS section. Even our Constitution has a Preamble which sets forth the reason for the Constitution. Do you think the Preamble should be removed from the Constitution?
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TPaine7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-11 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #3
14. The Second Amendment, at least as you like to interpret it, is ALL opinion.
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Of course you'd probably like to strike even that "opinion masquerading as law" from the books, wouldn't you? But how can you think that Thomas Jefferson would agree?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-11 12:21 PM
Response to Original message
4. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-11 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. And watch the state turn red in the next elections.
Good luck with that...
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lawodevolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-11 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Florida is a beautiful state.
The state of california wants more tools for gun confiscation.
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-11 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. A "big sewer" with less crime than CA..
The violent crime rate by city for 2010 shows two CA cities in the top ten, the first FL city comes in around number twenty.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-11 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #8
16. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
eqfan592 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-11 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. "Sewer, thanks to easily-available handguns."
Got evidence? Yeah, didn't think so. But hey, nice try though. Way to ignore all other socioeconomic factors at play when it comes to crime.

"Statistical games" indeed.
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gejohnston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-11 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. most nonlethal violent crime does not involve guns
so I fail to see how it matters. Your point is so over simplistic to the point of absurdity. Want to compare El Paso to Cuidad Juarez? Right next door, historically once the same city. One with very lax gun laws and another with very strict gun laws.
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-11 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. Move the goal-posts again?
We were (I thought) talking about gun crime, now you want to compare all violent crime?
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-11 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. Dear, that's 2006.. not 2010.
Edited on Thu Jun-02-11 03:25 PM by X_Digger
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/preliminary-annual-ucr-jan-dec-2010

Here are the top 10 cities ranked by violent crime rate

MICHIGAN.....FLINT...........2,208
MICHIGAN.....DETROIT.........1,887
MISSOURI.....ST. LOUIS.......1,747
CONNECTICUT..NEW HAVEN.......1,584
TENNESSEE....MEMPHIS.........1,539
CALIFORNIA...OAKLAND.........1,530
ARKANSAS.....LITTLE ROCK.....1,522
MARYLAND.....BALTIMORE.......1,456
ILLINOIS.....ROCKFORD........1,453
CALIFORNIA...STOCKTON........1,381
....
FLORIDA......ST.PETERSBURG...1,132 * #20
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friendly_iconoclast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-11 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. The factose intolerant just got a dose of Reality Therapy(TM). Thanks, Dr. X_Digger!
Caution: Reality Therapy(TM) is designed to treat factose intolerance by interfering with preconceived notions and ingrained

prejudice.


Patients should consult with a statistician before beginning a course of Reality Therapy(TM). Reality Therapy(TM) may cause

irritation to the bigotry centers in your brain. This is a normal and expected side effect of Reality Therapy(TM) and you

should could continue to use Reality Therapy(TM) as directed by your statistician.



"When reflexive prejudice is harming your interactions with other people, try Reality Therapy(TM)!"
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-11 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #8
23. While Florida has plenty of crime ...
the criminals know that many homeowners are armed and that there are plenty of people who carry firearms legally.

Since criminals fear armed citizens more than they do police, the crimes the smart ones avoid confrontations with potential armed citizens.

In the rural area of Florida where I currently live the criminals will walk off with anything you leave outside but RARELY enter an occupied home. Almost everybody I know has at least one firearm, many have concealed weapons permits and many also carry loaded firearms in their cars which doesn't even require a license. The firearm has to be "securely encased" which means as "in a glove compartment, whether or not locked; snapped in a holster; in a gun case, whether or not locked; in a zippered gun case or in a closed box or container which requires a lid or cover to be opened for access." source: http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/Getchell1.htm

One friend I knew when I lived in the Tampa Bay area carried a loaded .45 auto in his car in a cigar box, which has a lid, on his passenger seat. He was a retired police officer and a competitive shooter who had won many tournaments.

Professional criminals are not stupid. Like most predators they prefer to attack the weakest of the herd. If they plan to mug a person they often pick on some fool with a cell phone glued to his/her ear. They are well aware that those who carry often practice situational awareness and are alert to their surroundings. The professionals often look for giveaways that a person might be carrying like a knife clipped to their pant pocket or someone wearing a vest. Their occupation is to break the law but like everybody else they like to come home safe after a days work.

It's hard to prove that states that allow citizens to own firearms and carry concealed have a lower rate of violent crime but I seriously believe it is a major contributing factor. It would be interesting if some state decided to repeal concealed carry and impose draconian gun control which would make it very difficult for a person to own a firearm in his home for self defense.

Washington D.C. does provide a possible interesting example of gun control failure.


There is no question, of course, that guns figure in countless murders, suicides and accidental deaths. Over the five years ending in 1997, the Justice Department says, there was an average of 36,000 firearms-related deaths a year. (Fifty-one percent were suicides, and 44 percent homicides.) Determining whether particular gun control laws would have, on balance, prevented some of those deaths is difficult. Take Washington, D.C., whose near-total ban on handguns in the home was on the receiving end of last week’s decision.

At the crudest level, as Justice Breyer wrote, violent crime in Washington has increased since the ban took effect in 1976. “Indeed,” he continued, “a comparison with 49 other major cities reveals that the district’s homicide rate is actually substantially higher relative to these other cities than it was before the handgun restriction went into place.”

Those statistics by themselves prove nothing, of course. Factors aside from the gun ban, like demographics, economics and the drug trade, were almost certainly in play. “As students of elementary logic know,” Justice Breyer wrote, “after it does not mean because of it.”

***snip***

There is some evidence, Professor Volokh said, that denying guns to people who might use them in self-defense, usually merely by brandishing them, tends to increase crime rates. There is also evidence that the possibility of confronting a victim with a gun deters some criminals.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/29/weekinreview/29liptak.html



Washington, D.C. – In 1976 they passed a major gun control law. They even stopped people from owning guns in their homes. Their murder rate went up 134% while the USA rate for murder dropped 2%.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/29/weekinreview/29liptak.html


What happened after the Supreme Court overthrew Washington D.C's handgun ban?



Court's Gun Decision An Important Win for Americans Who Want to Defend Themselves
By John Lott

Published June 28, 2010

| FOXNews.com



When the “Heller” decision was handed down in 2008 striking down Washington, D.C.'s handgun ban and gunlock regulations, Chicago's Mayor Richard Daley predicted disaster. He said that overturning the gun ban was "a very frightening decision" and predicted more deaths along with Wild West-style shootouts and that people "are going to take a gun and they are going to end their lives in a family dispute." Washington’s Mayor Adrian Fenty similarly warned: "More handguns in the District of Columbia will only lead to more handgun violence."

Yet, Armageddon never arrived.

Washington’s murder rate has plummeted -- falling by 25 percent in 2009 alone. This compares with a national drop of only 7 percent last year. And D.C.'s drop has continued this year.

Comparing Washington’s crime rates from January 1 to June 17 of this year to the same period in 2008, shows a 34 percent drop in murder. This drop puts D.C.'s murder rate back to where it was before the 1977 handgun ban. Indeed, the murder rate is as low as was before 1967.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2010/06/28/john-lott-supreme-court-guns-ban-washington-chicago-daley-kagan-sotomayor/#ixzz1O9TzZjiu


Still it's very hard to argue that the decision by the Supreme Court made the difference in Washington D.C.'s crime rate. Washington D.C. placed so many hurdles in the path of firearm ownership that few people today have been able to obtain handguns for home defense. Eventually D.C. may be forced to allow a more reasonable path to firearm ownership and the results may be more revealing.
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gejohnston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-11 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. How is it a good idea exactly?
Will it make the streets safer? Given the experience in Canada and New Zealand, it will not. In the 1980s, law enforcement lobbied NZ's parliment to discard the law because it was costly theater. Given California's limited ability to raise taxes or pay for stuff, how will the state pay for it? Cut education and Medicare?
Other than having Rick Scott as gov (which he won by a very slim plurality in a three way race, and the media said nothing about medicare fraud until after the election) how is Florida a sewer? If it based on their gun laws, are you going to phone Bernie Sanders and tell him that his state is an even bigger shit hole?
If it is about Scott and Allen West, California has more than its share of insane Republicans.
I used to live in California. That shining state on the hill is where Mike Savage started at KSFO in San Francisco and where my boss rarely made it through a week without being pulled over for "driving while black". That was in the bay area.
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GreenStormCloud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-11 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. How does registratiuon help solve crimes?
Criminals generally don't leave their guns at the crime scene. You usually get the criminal's gun when you catch the criminal. Since you have then caught him in possession then you don't need registration. Further, SCOTUS long ago ruled that criminals don't have to register their illegal guns as they would violate their 5th Amendment rights. So how does registration accomplish anything except provide a list for future mass confiscation?
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Bold Lib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-11 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #4
12. What makes it a "good idea"? Canada's registry is in such shambles
they are about to scrap it completely. You do understand that criminal cannot be charged with having an unregistered weapon right? So really, how is this going to help prevent or solve crime?
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ileus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-02-11 02:35 PM
Response to Original message
15. Can you say....time to check if you secure your firearms?
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