Another "rare" rifle shooting

[MyrnaLoy]

I think they are a daily occurrence now. No report on rifle type so we'll wait and see. Sure do get a lot of wounded with these "rare" rifle shootings don't we.

Palmetto nightclub shooting kills 2, injures 22. "I was on the floor trying not to die," said Chip 'Blu Chip' Hunt, a promoter who works with the club management. http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20110910/ARTICLE/110919990/2055/NEWS?Title=Two-dead-22-wounded-in-Palmetto-nightclub-shooting

[TheWraith]

1. Do you understand the meaning of "anecdote"?

Apparently not. An anecdote is a story which, while being personally true, is statistically meaningless. In other words, you could post a rifle shooting every single day, seven per week, and it STILL would not be a significant source of either deaths or injuries in a country of three hundred million people.

An anecdote is what people who don't understand statistics substitute for actual information.

[TheCowsCameHome]

2. Yeah, and it certainly cuts both ways.

n/t

[TheWraith]

4. Quite true. The real statistics provide the facts.

13,000 murders by firearm--most of which are thanks to the "war on drugs"--versus at the most conservative estimate, 250,000 defensive uses of a gun. In the less conservative estimates, four million defensive uses of a gun per year.

[MyrnaLoy]

9. NRA/GOP talking points

and the numbers are completely false. No, I'm not going to get a source, your numbers have been proven wrong over, and over in this very forum. Most people have the sense now to know they are wrong.

All those white gangs huh:

Firearm Victims By Race

White
Fatalities: 21,442
Injuries: 16,110
African-American
Fatalities: 7,449
Injuries: 29,951
Hispanic
Fatalities: 3,278
Injuries: 9,694

http://washingtonceasefire.org/resource-center/national-firearm-injury-and-death-statistics

It is nice that you decided not to include the injured, fuck them huh? Try honesty next time, over 100,000 people are shot in America each year.

In one year, 31,224 people died from gun violence and 66,769 people survived gun injuries (National Center for Injury Prevention and Control (NCIPC))

Your 4 million DGU is laughable. I do like the fact that you're about to claim many of them go unreported so we are just basically gonna guess. STAT!!! was your mantra right? When in doubt guess, 4 million, a joke.

your number was around 30,000 correct? That's 85 deaths each day and more than three deaths each hour. http://www.lcav.org/statistics-polling/gun_violence_statistics.asp

[TheWraith]

15. So you choose to ignore established facts. Thanks for making it clear.

At least you're clear about the fact that you don't give a shit about real world understanding--only what stats you can spin.

[gejohnston]

16. Yes white gangs

and white drug dealers. NRA talking points? No, how about criminologists without grants from anyone. Yours on the other hand, products of the Joyce Foundation echo chamber.

Proven false by whom? Not even the Joyce Foundation hacks have even though they try to claim it.

[AtheistCrusader]

40. And YOUR numbers include self-inflicted gunshots, as well as lawful defensive gun uses.

By all means, yank suicides, attempted suicides, and legal uses of firearms in self defense (between 60k and 100k per year according to the Department of Justice) out of your numbers.

[MyrnaLoy]

7. in this case

it's the information you wish to hide from

[We_Have_A_Problem]

42. Nobody is hiding from information MyrnaLoy...

..it is accepted as what it is.

Thing is, you have to take all information in context.

[MyrnaLoy]

25. no real suprise

Police said Sunday that they believe AK-47 assault rifles were used in a shooting at a Florida nightclub that killed a man and a woman and injured 22 others, the Bradenton Herald reported.

Read more: http://www.myfoxhouston.com/dpps/news/police%3A-ak-47s-used-in-fla.-nightclub-shooting-dpgonc-km-20110911_14970597#ixzz1Xgp0Sh93

[petronius]

26. From that article:

"Police investigating the incident recovered spent 7.62 x 39mm cartridge cases, leading police to believe at least one semi-automatic weapon like an AK-47 was used."

In other words, not an "assault rifle." As this is a forum for discussing policy, and since anecdotes like the OP are often used (with dubious usefulness) to inform that discussion, it's important to at least have accurate information. 'Assault rifle' has a specific meaning, which does not include semi-auto, and AK47-patterned semi-automatics are not 'assault rifles'...

[MyrnaLoy]

27. Well

according the NRA/GOP/Gun Forum AK-47 has a specific meaning. But in the REAL WORLD where the guns are sold it is an AK. How come every time I see an AK for sale at gun stores and gun shows IT SAYS AK47? You like to BUY AK47s but you hate when they are called that in the media. Why is that?

Tell you what sportster, go to a gun store and ask for an AK. 9 times out of 10 the guy behind the counter will hand you one. You don't complain about that now do you. Go to the racks of AKs at a gun show, I've seen the signs. Ask the guy to take down the sign because they are not real AKs. Will you do that? Not a chance in hell. No, you'll only complain when one is used to kill a bunch of people, makes you toy look bad.

[petronius]

30. My comment was aimed more at the "assault rifle" moniker, but to answer

your question, context is everything. If I read an ad or speak to a clerk about an "AK", with the mutual understanding that we're talking about an AK-styled semi-auto rifle then the short-hand is perfectly fine. On the other hand, if I'm led to believe that I'm shopping for an actual AK-47, only to be handed a semi-auto variant, I'll be righteously pissed off.

'Assault rifle' means a specific thing: a select-fire rifle (machine gun). Anyone who has seen anything about Afghanistan, Iraq, Somalia, Libya, Vietnam, Angola, Mozambique, etc has a clear impression of what "AK-47 assault rifle" means, and using the phrase as in the OP article gives the (accidental or deliberately deceptive) impression that automatic firearms like those seen on TV are being used regularly on US streets. (I say "regularly" knowing that other posters have already pointed out the actual infrequency of rifle-use in crimes.)

So, context matters. Use of the phrase as in the OP creates confusion, and since this forum is dedicated to policy discussion I'd think that even the most ardent pro-control poster would want to avoid or clear up such confusion. Am I mistaken?

[MyrnaLoy]

32. yes you are mistaken

You hate when the media uses AK but will use it in your everyday circle of gun friends. The stores use it, the gun shows use it. When a news story uses it you freak out. Now when you try to pass off your AK love and divert the discussion to mean Assault rifle then you'll be OK when the media uses Assault type rife? Honesty is a good thing, try it sometimes.

[petronius]

33. I suspect you did not understand my post

Put more simply, my question was "Am I mistaken that even the most ardently pro-control posters prefer clarity and the avoidance of confusion in policy-oriented discussion?" Your answer was that I am mistaken; would you care to revise that?

To reiterate the point: the phrase "AK-47 assault rifle" (as used in the news article quote that you yourself provided) has a specific meaning. To the reader of the news article, it will convey a substantially erroneous understanding of the facts, and I object to that (as you should). In other contexts, where meaning is mutually understood, nicknames or short-hand are not a problem. (I would also object to "assault-type rifle" as it's a meaningless phrase certain to muddy the water.)

Please, before you respond, carefully consider the importance of context and clarity of communication. What I'm advocating, and what you're apparently arguing against, is increased honesty and accuracy in firearms-related reporting.

I understand that you're trying to be clever and snarky and get an angry response out of people, but I honestly (in all kindness) think you should stop. You're simply not very good at it, and at best your attempts make you appear to be not very bright with a below-average reading ability...

[MyrnaLoy]

35. awwww

so you'll end with personal attacks. Yup, you're the better debater, that's for sure. Bottom line, you don't care if the media uses AK or Assault Rifle, you just want to be pissed off when they use either. Gun shows and gun stores use it in advertising every day but nothing is said about it. Instead of discussing the use you end your post with childish personal attacks.

Yeah, you're the smart one.

[petronius]

37. Did you truly not understand anything I said?

Words have meaning; clear and accurate communication is important in policy-related discussion.

"Assault rifle" has a specific meaning. "AK-47" has a specific meaning. "Semi-automatic" has a specific meaning. News reports and other discussions that misuse terminology to (willfully or otherwise) give inaccurate interpretations should be deplored by all posters...

[AtheistCrusader]

41. Show me a gun store that labels it's wares as 'assault rifle' and charges less than $16K

plus full background check, plus 200$ tax stamp, etc, for the weapon.

You will not find gun sellers using that term, AK or MAK or other clone label or not.


Assault rifle has a specific meaning, and you/media are abusing it.

[november3rd]

3. Thank you, Congress!

At least we have the FREEDOM to carry loaded weapons around in public, or hide them in our houses and cars (even if we don't have the freedom to protect ourselves from psycho murderers)

Oh well, random shooting-victimization is just one small price to pay for the BENEFIT of keeping BIG GOVERNMENT from rearing its ugly head with things like gun control laws!

[TheWraith]

5. You're aware, yes, that violent crime has been dropping for almost 20 years?

Statistically, you're safer now than you have been at any point since the 1960s. And that's with three hundred million guns in this country.

[mvccd1000]

6. Bad move.

The promoter said, "I was on the floor trying not to die."

One thing I took away from training before I deployed overseas was that bullets tend to travel along floors, while shrapnel from mortars and explosives tends to travel higher. Stay off the floor to avoid bullets, and stay on the floor to avoid shrapnel.

[Angry Dragon]

8. Deaths

guns in 2010 ---- 31,224

traffic accidents in 2010 ---- 32,788

[provis99]

10. cars are used everyday, all day. Guns are used a litttle less, you know.

And yet they still do as much damage. You're not helping your cause with that kind of goofy thinking.

[gejohnston]

17. most of which were suicides

who were serious and not reaching out for help. After that, you subtract the justifiable homicides (police and citizen combined).

[MyrnaLoy]

19. and after all

we know that with suicides the victim is less dead, therefore the family grieves less.

[gejohnston]

21. no, but the victim will not say

Oh on second thought, I can't shoot myself, so I'll seek help. Not less dead, just still be dead gun or not.

[krispos42]

22. So, wait... all 20,000 firearm suicides per year would still be alive if it wasn't for guns?

If no, then how many would have killed themselves by other means?

[Angry Dragon]

20. I have no cause, I just threw the numbers out there

smoking kills more people
disease kills more people
alcohol kills more people

marijuana kills no one

police kill more people than marijuana

[TheCowsCameHome]

34. Here we go again

WTF do cars have to do with the guns?

Gunning the engine, maybe?:rofl:

[MyrnaLoy]

36. one of my favorites for the forum

is hands and feet are so much worse!! Those crack me up. They have me fearing feet every time I go outside now, I used to love feet!

[TheCowsCameHome]

39. That's it - ...

it's concealed carry handcuffs and leg irons for me wherever I go.

I'm not taking any chances on getting hurt....................

----------------------

What stupid shit.

[MyrnaLoy]

45. LOL

I know

[X_Digger]

11. Not too keen on stats, are you.. here, this will help..

In 2009, there were 348 homicides by rifles out of a total of 13,636 victims.

http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/offenses/expanded_information/data/shrtable_11.html

In that same year there were 149,493 robberies with a firearm and 146,650 aggravated assaults with a firearm.

http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/data/table_15.html

If we assume the same ratio for rifles in other crimes as in homicides (which is being very generous to you)..

There would be 3,185 robberies with a rifle, and 3,742 aggravated assaults with rifles that year.

So in any given day in 2009, you would have been able to find 19.9 such events.

2.5% is 2.5%.

If something happens 25 times out of 1,000, we classify that as rare.

[MyrnaLoy]

12. here's a stat for ya

In 2007, guns took the lives of 31,224 Americans in homicides, suicides and unintentional shootings. This is the equivalent of more than 85 deaths each day and more than three deaths each hour

Between 1955 and 1975, the Vietnam War killed over 58,000 American soldiers – less than the number of civilians killed with guns in the U.S. in an average two-year period

In the first seven years of the U.S.-Iraq War, over 4,400 American soldiers were killed. Almost as many civilians are killed with guns in the U.S., however, every seven weeks
http://www.lcav.org/statistics-polling/gun_violence_statistics.asp

[X_Digger]

13. That's a pretty non-sequitur..

But it does not address my post.

Care to take another swing?

[rrneck]

14. Wooooooow!

Looka them big ole' numbers! I'm so upset I could just scream! Harumph harumph harumph!

I think I'd have to get drunk to take you seriously.

Every one of those deaths is a tragedy. Your post is a tragedy of a different sort.

[gejohnston]

18. Why just Americans?

How about adding the RVN troops, VC, DVN regulars, Australians, South Koreans, French, and the civilians in both the north and south?
Same question with Iraq invasion and occupation, I refuse to call it a war because it is not a war. It is an occupation.

It is hypocritical to bitch about NRA or GOA talking points while using talking points from equally questionable sources.

[gejohnston]

31. correction

replace DVN with NVA. My bad.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

43. Interesting numbers...

..and it appears they reach the intended emotion-based target audience quite effectively.

However, those of us who deal in actual facts recognize they essentially mean nothing.

[DissedByBush]

28. You are being far too generous

I seriously doubt so many robberies are committed with rifles.

[X_Digger]

29. Oh I know..

But it drives home the point that a percentage is a percentage, not an absolute number.

Some posters get a hard-on for news reports, as if that is indicative of frequency of something; something other than editorial decisions, that is.

[Euromutt]

23. I have the weirdest sense of déjà vu...

I remember Michael Harris's campaign, in this very forum, two years ago or thereabouts, dredging up one story of a crime committed with a rifle after another, as if even a few dozen anecdotal instances would invalidate FBI UCR data. Not to mention that considerations of "newsworthiness" dictate what will actually get reported--and the manner in which it gets reported--and that accordingly what will get reported is not necessarily representative of what happened that day, and certainly not of what didn't happen. "Eighty million legal gun owners didn't use their firearms to commit crimes today" isn't news; "six legal gun owners used their firearms to commit crimes" is.

[MyrnaLoy]

24. no real suprise

Police said Sunday that they believe AK-47 assault rifles were used in a shooting at a Florida nightclub that killed a man and a woman and injured 22 others, the Bradenton Herald reported.

Read more: http://www.myfoxhouston.com/dpps/news/police%3A-ak-47s-used-in-fla.-nightclub-shooting-dpgonc-km-20110911_14970597#ixzz1Xgp0Sh93

[We_Have_A_Problem]

44. They can believe...

...it was a flounder if they wish. That does not make it true.

[Francis Marion]

38. A sense of history

To remind us of the possible consequence of popular disarmament.

Nobody likes to hear news of people killing and hurting other people, with guns or any other weapon.

Nevertheless, history, which can care less about our prejudices, instructs: it is fatal to deny people access to modern tools of self defense.

As bad as they are, our baseline of gun violence incidents barely registers notice compared to the 20th century murder rate of defenseless people: 1,700,000 people on average every year.

170,000,000 men, women, and kids, first disarmed, and then murdered.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFp51KusLmU