Always be aware of your surroundings....it could save your life.

[ileus]

http://www2.wspa.com/news/2011/aug/29/13/man-shot-death-boiling-springs-spartanburg-co-depu-ar-2335423/

Investigators said two armed men followed a homeowner into his driveway on Cottage Mill Run in Boiling Springs late Sunday night.

When they demanded money, the homeowner opened fire killing 28-year-old John Fowler.

A second suspect ran from the scene. He hasn't been found.




Always be aware and prepared....it may have saved this guys life.

I'm sure most of us don't watch the vehicles around us, but this guy did and it paid off big time.

Stay safe everyone.

[classof56]

1. Well, if nothing else, it certainly saved his money.

n/t

[X_Digger]

5. Homeowner was threatened..

That's what robbery is- use of force (or threat of) to permanently deprive an owner of property.

This isn't the first rodeo for Fowler.

http://www.goupstate.com/article/20110829/ARTICLES/110829719

According to Spartanburg County Detention Center records, Fowler was jailed in 2007 on two armed robbery charges.

[msongs]

2. always wear sensible shoes on an airplane, and no polyester clothes nt

[ileus]

3. polyester...that melts to the skin, right?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

8. Yes it does

Cotton is not as resistant (nor as itchy) as nomex.

[RSillsbee]

22. Nomex is more stinky too NT

[ProgressiveProfessor]

7. Cotton, gotta be cotton

[ileus]

14. arc flash approved.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

15. Arc issues are rare aboard and airplane and nomex is too much of a PITA

[HillbillyBob]

4. Most people I see on the road or where ever are not mindful they are in a

bubble..on the phone yammering at the kids...

Being mindful has saved my life on more than one occasion.
This sounds weird, but I have been in about 8 rear end collisions, EVERYONE of the hit me at or coasting to a stop light that was already red. Several were on a damn phone, 2 were putting on makeup a couple were just fucking idiots who yelled at me for not running the light! Each time I 'saw' it coming and braced, when they hit i would let off the brakes to 'catch' them so it would not destroy my truck..only the last time did they manage to mangle my bumper.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

11. See that kind of thing daily, I ride a motorcycle

[jpak]

6. Live in constant fear always

:rofl:

[ProgressiveProfessor]

9. I ride a motorcycle as my primary transportation so of course I live in fear

too many snowbird cagers in the world

[jpak]

12. Do you wear a helmet?

:shrug:

[ProgressiveProfessor]

13. Full face and a 'stitch with full armor but that does not mean the cagers don't try

[ileus]

16. full faced save me once....

[Katya Mullethov]

20. We just buried a long time brother

A well traveled entrepreneur ,witty raconteur , and worthy adversary in daily verbal jousts . Colliding with a left turning automobile tore his leg almost completely off and he bled out quickly . The only thing the local paper could think to ask the sheriff was if he was wearing a helmet or not and then entered into some hysterical conjecture as to how he attempted to "lay it down" in order to "avoid a collision" . What insufferable putzes !

I cant wait to tease Jack about their send off when I finally do catch up with him . He ...is gonna be ....PISSED !


http://www.meaningfulfunerals.net/fh/obituaries/obituary.cfm?o_id=1252199&fh_id=11122

[ileus]

21. Sorry to hear this...

We have 3 people in our shop that ride, and of the summer at least once a week they have some tale about a close call.

Being a bicycle rider I have plenty of tales of the road to go along with theirs...

[We_Have_A_Problem]

30. Here in Houston...

...it almost seems like the more armor you've got on, the harder they try to hit you.

I've been looking into the Bohn stuff just so i could ride "stealth" so to speak.

[spin]

18. You would probably say that I live in constant fear while I am driving ...

as I practice defensive driving and watch not only the cars near to me but look for tail lights far in front of my vehicle. I also try to maintain a safe distance between me and the driver in front of me and if someone is tailgating me, I add more distance from the car that I am behind.

So far in 50 years of driving, I have not been responsible for causing any accidents. Of course, I realize that if I don't pay attention that could change the next time that I am behind the wheel.

It only makes commonsense to be aware and alert to your surroundings when you are driving or when you are walking on a street or even inside a store or a restaurant.

But if you chose not to, it doesn't bother me in the least. I fail to see why you would ridicule those who do practice situational awareness.

[tblue]

10. You mean carry a loaded weapon?

Or check that the person you're bugging for money doesn't have a gun?
:shrug:

[spin]

19. You do not have to carry a weapon to practice situational awareness ...

and if you do, you may avoid situations where you might have a legal reason to use a weapon for self defense.

[gravity556]

17. Good to hear the homeowner was unhurt.

Sounds like they were planning a home invasion-grab the victim when they pull into the driveway, force them inside where the criminal scum can rob and kill without the neighbors seeing. Too bad he didn't get both of the shitbags.

[iverglas]

23. yippee!

I'm sure most of us don't watch the vehicles around us, but this guy did and it paid off big time.

Yay! He got to kill somebody!

The homeowner says he noticed a vehicle following him as he drove home late Sunday and then passed his home again after he turned into his driveway.

Ya know what reasonable people do when they notice a vehicle following them?

They drive to a safe location ... like the police station. I've done it myself.

But I guess it's smarter to drive home and hope to outgun somebody.

Lucky fella, he got to commit a homicide that evening. Chances like that don't come along every day!

[Francis Marion]

25. Occupation: Robbery Specialist

Occupational Hazard: A noncompliant, armed victim may kill you.

What's not to like?

The robber had several years to distinguish himself- and expire- in his chosen profession.

[Atypical Liberal]

32. But somehow we are supposed to value and cherish his life just because he's human.

But many people around here would say that it's just terrible that deadly force was used in response to an armed robbery, even when the robber who got shot has a history of armed robbery.

"Oh!" they'll say. "How could the homeowner shoot those poor robbers over property, over money?"

Never once pausing to consider that the two armed robbers were quite content to kill for property and money.

And then they'll lament how people aren't cherishing and valuing the lives of the robbers, because after all, they're fellow human beings!

Bunch of hogwash. Violent thugs. One of them is now dead, and the world is a better place for it.

[iverglas]

35. amazing, isn't it?

Of course, you can "value and cherish" what you like.

The fact is that civilized societies value the lives of human beings, having recognized the equal rights of all human beings.

It's kinda what separates the civilized from the uncivilized.

And it has nothing to do with anyone's personal opinion about anything or anybody, whether that opinion be pervertedly ugly or divinely dispassionate, or somewhere in the normal range in between.


"Oh!" they'll say. "How could the homeowner shoot those poor robbers over property, over money?"

Actually, I said: why the hell didn't this individual do what a rational person does and not drive to his home and park late at night when he knew he was being followed?

Does toting a gun really mean never having to behave rationally?

[spin]

37. Actually your advice is sound ...

If I suspect that I am being followed, I definitely do not drive to my home. First I make several turns and watch to see if the car continues to follow me. If it does (which has never happened yet) I will drive to a safe place such as a police station.

If I have attracted unwelcome attention, the last thing I want is for the person to find out where I live.

[RSillsbee]

48. If I think someone is following me I pull a Uey

if they're still following I head for the nearest Police Station

[iverglas]

52. see?

There are lots of sensible people in this thread. :D

[RSillsbee]

53. Did you read the user name before you posted that?

You have called me many things counselor, "sensible" ain't (until now) one of them.

[iverglas]

54. and the one above you, and several others

Some things are just so very sensible that they get through even the hardest heads. ;)

[ProgressiveProfessor]

60. That is not an option available to everyone

But generally it is good advice not to show the bad guys where you live.

Some years back, my daughter was being followed by a car she did not recognize on the way to my property. She did the basic evasive stuff and it stayed with her. She called me and headed to the house. When she hit the private road she dramatically sped up. The unknown car followed and may have turned on grille mounted cop lights (we disputed that). She made the tight entry turn the driver following her did not, ruined his undercarriage on the anti RV block I had there at the time and his airbag deployed. No one was happy after that.

[Union Scribe]

26. Lol. You're so angry when the innocent people win.

I love it.

[Atypical Liberal]

33. Maybe it's resentment.

I think some people, when they see others successfully stand up to violence, feel like it calls into question their own ability to stand up to violence, and they resent it.

[iverglas]

36. maybe it's just false bullshit

Yeah, that's it.

[iverglas]

28. y'know what's funny?

If the robbers in this case had shot first and the guy with the gun had been the one who got dead, this tale would have been appearing here as one of those "if only he'd had a gun" sagas.

Because in point of fact, whether someone actually had access to a gun at the time of a robbery or homicide or what have you is not generally noted in media reports of such events, and there is no more reason to think it would have been in this case. It would have been just another of the "scum kills defenceless homeowner" anecdotes we are so regularly treated to.

Come to think of it, so would all the other "DGU"s bruited about here, and I have absolutely no doubt that in many of the "defenceless victim" tales, the victim in fact did have a firearm somewhere in the vicinity. After all, what proportion of households in the US, for instance, do have?

This guy was "lucky". A split second difference could have produced a very different result.

An intelligent person who thinks someone is following their car drives to a place of safety (without disclosing the location to which they intended to drive).

[petronius]

38. I don't think that's a particularly valid criticism at this point.

I imagine we've all occasionally noticed vehicles traveling behind us for unusually long times; absent other suspicious circumstances I think it would be unusual to head straight to the police station every time that happened (and a late hour alone doesn't create that additional suspicious circumstance IMO).

I would guess that he was aware of the other car, but his suspicion didn't really rise until it passed back again, and then his concern spiked higher when he saw two guys running toward him. At that point, of course, driving anywhere else wasn't an option. (Caveat: I'm sure we all agree that any sort of critique or analysis based on scanty evidence from one viewpoint is fraught with uncertainty, and is mind-play at best.)

Another thing, unless I'm missing it, is that it's not stated in the article that the alleged robber was armed with a firearm. Comments on the article (for what they're worth) mention a pipe or tire iron, not a gun...

[AtheistCrusader]

40. Our local police station closes at night.

45 minute drive to the nearest courthouse that has a jail that one might reasonably expect to be open all night.

I say reasonably expect, because hell, I've never knocked late at night.


What could be safer than your own home?

[iverglas]

41. "What could be safer than your own home?"

Give me a break. Was that a serious question?

How about a place, any place, where there are lights and people?

[AtheistCrusader]

43. I have lights and people in my home.

:shrug:

[iverglas]

44. was he IN his home?

http://maps.google.ca/maps?complete=0&hl=en&biw=1024&bih=640&q=Cottage+Mill+Run,+Boiling+Springs,+sc&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=0x8857713d3a7cb575:0x321e076e7106a115,Cottage+Mill+Run,+Boiling+Springs,+SC+29316,+USA&gl=ca&ei=HYJuTuigHKvK0AHX4rWRBQ&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&ct=image&resnum=1&ved=0CBgQ8gEwAA

Walmart, where he was coming from, and Lowe's are about 4 blocks away. Suburban sprawl of the worst kind, there ... and I'm not just talking about the kind where people with guns in their vehicles live.

The residential street he lives on, off the main road, ends in a forked dead end.

[AtheistCrusader]

45. He was in the driveway, according to the report in the OP.

I don't know about you, but any desire for 'safe territory' immediately brings to my mind; my home/property.

[iverglas]

46. well, you don't know about common sense and common professional advice

On a really quick google for followed drive police station this is the first thing up.

http://www.sugarlandtx.gov/police/services/crime_prevention/tips/avoid_being_followed_home.asp

Avoid Being Followed Home

Frequently check your rearview mirror to see if you are being followed. If you are being followed, DO NOT drive home. Instead drive to the nearest police station, fire station or other place of safety.

If you believe you are being followed but are unsure, make three consecutive left hand or right hand turns. If you are still being followed, DO NOT drive home.

Remember it is important to know where you are so police officers can respond if needed. Know your direction of travel.

If you have a cellular phone, call 9-1-1. Try to get a good description of the vehicle that is following you including the vehicle's make, color and license plate number if possible.

Do not try to be a hero. Don't take any action that would jeopardize your own safety.

And that's Texas talking.


Just to add a bit more:

http://www.state.gov/m/ds/rls/rpt/19773.htm

... If you are being followed or harassed by another driver, try to find the nearest police station, hotel, or other public facility. Once you find a place of safety, don't worry about using a legal parking space. Park as close as you can, and get inside fast.

... If you are being followed, never lead the person back to your home or stop and get out. Drive to the nearest police station, public facility, or U.S. mission. (You could verify surveillance by going completely around an arbitrarily chosen block.) Always report these incidents to the RSO or PSO.

http://www.columbia.edu/cu/publicsafety/CrimeTips.htm

If you are being followed, drive to the nearest police station, or populated area, and honk your vehicle's horn.

So that makes a Texas police service, the US State Dept and a major university ... and a Canadian police service on safety tips for women:

http://gspscp.ca/en/citizens/womenalone.asp

If you suspect that someone is following you, drive to the nearest service station, drive-in restaurant, police station, and blow the horn.

[AtheistCrusader]

47. Gas stations are a terrible idea.

Yeah, ok, good if you want the police that are batting clean-up to have some good video evidence, and that's about it. Same for a drive-in.

This is from the 'don't resist, and everything will be over soon' liability-first safety planning crowd.

Even if you are not planning a shoot-out or overlapping fields of fire or anything like that, your home is the safest territory, except perhaps a police station that you KNOW is open, and you KNOW you can get inside quickly.

Your home, you know the layout of the property and the house. You can escape while someone is futzing with the front door. You know which neighbors are likely home, and which are dependable, etc.

Making the intruder advance through a wall of lead is purely optional.

[iverglas]

49. that one was Canadian

Your mileage may vary. ;)

I'm sorry, but what you are saying is just plain silly. If someone is following you and you anticipate that they want to do you harm, you do NOT go somewhere where you are isolated, and if you live where the person in this story lives, a dead-end residential street at nearly 11 pm, that's what you are. Of course, he could have pulled into his driveway and leaned on his horn there, and got his family and neighbours to come out and thus created the conditions where he would most probably have been safe. But he didn't.

Obviously, too very obviously, what those people were doing was picking a target and waiting for him to be in a vulnerable situation -- isolated -- before they made their move.

They could have made their move in the WalMart parking lot they followed him from. They didn't. Seems to say it all.

[AtheistCrusader]

50. I don't buy it.

This subject should have been able to make it inside his house, especially since they 'drove past'. Something doesn't sound right. Either the retelling is faulty, or something is up.

I think your position is predicated upon the idea of a 'reasonable' aggressor that will not risk exposure. Bright lights. Witnesses that may observe, but are unlikely to intervene with force. (Most people will not) I don't think that's a good bet these days. Not in the US anyway. If someone is following you, either you left something and they are trying to return it, you damaged their property and maybe don't realize it, or you are in deep shit.

In my home, I have every advantage. I might nix that for a police station, where there are armed people who WILL intervene, and only the most suicidal of aggressors would even bother you there. Other than that, I can't think of a place that might be safe, other than a gun range, or gun store that happened to be open. In the US, I have yet to find one where the employees aren't carrying openly on their hips. Pretty good bet someone will intervene on your behalf there. Plus video recording.


Our intrepid subject in the OP concerns me. I wonder if they had an altercation of some sort prior to the shooting, possibly at the store.

[iverglas]

51. well, you do have a history of reasonable suspicion

and I agree that it doesn't quite all add up, especially the circling around on a dead end street part, but it could have meant turning and returning.

I wondered whether they had observed a wad of cash at the checkout, if the targeting was in fact random. The video surveillance picture of the two possible witnesses is interesting. That makes one more than was involved in the incident, at least, it seems. Were they in charge of picking the targets? Or yes, was there prior contact?

Nonetheless ... whatever the intent of the armed parties was, they did not pursue it in the public place, they followed the target to a place where he was vulnerable.

The advice to go to a well-lit place where there are people, if one is followed, really isn't about going somewhere where people have guns. The Sudbury police wouldn't advise people to go to service stations if that were the case. It's about going somewhere where you are not vulnerable because of the simple fact that there are other people all around.

[AtheistCrusader]

58. If the story is really on the up and up

then it's possible the victim didn't know he was followed from one public place to home.

But the more I think about it, the more something doesn't sound right. THIS time he noticed someone following him? What are the odds of that? Or were they just wildly obvious about it?


In the US, getting shot at a gas station isn't unheard of. Maybe 20 years ago, the threat of public witnesses held more sway. I wouldn't recommend others trust in it now. Sad really. I've been accosted in broad daylight in front of many people, outside a gas station. Fortunately the stakes were not as high, and they were just being jerks.

[DissedByBush]

24. I was trained for that in the Army

It's part of security briefings they drill into you constantly when stationed overseas.

It was especially relevant in 80s Germany because of the Red Army Faction. They liked to target soldiers, even killed one from the barracks next to mine.

Even now where there is very low danger I find myself passing by my house and circling back when a car has been behind me for too many turns.

It's not paranoia really, just basic security.

[one-eyed fat man]

34. Rote Armee Fraktion, aka Bader-Meinhof

http://www.3ad.com/history/cold.war/feature.pages/terrorism3.htm

Killing of G.I. Linked To West German Blast


Reuters

Frankfurt, Aug. 13, 1985 - The West German police said today that they were investigating a possible link between a car bomb attack at the United States Rhein-Main Air Base Thursday in which two Americans were killed and the killing of a United States soldier the night before.

A Western news agency today received the military identity card of the slain soldier, Edward F. Pimental, and a letter taking responsibility for the killing.

The letter was signed by the Red Army Faction guerrilla group and the French extremist group Action Directe.

A spokesman said the police were investigating the possibility that guerrillas used the identity card to gain access to the base to plant the bomb.

The soldier was killed on Wednesday night after leaving a Wiesbaden discotheque with an unidentified woman and a man.

One way to ensure that a you don't risk a forged ID card getting spotted during a 100% ID card check is to use a genuine card. One way to get a genuine card is to go where GI's hang out and find one who looks similar to your driver.



Birgit Hogefeld was sitting on the bait she used to get the poor chump out the door... then she put a 9mm bullet through the back of his head to get his ID card.

[DissedByBush]

55. I knew that club

It wasn't one I went to, but the RAF could have been just as easily trolling one of the clubs I did go to.

Scary. I was young and dumb at the time, but that story smacked some sense into me.

Can you believe they released that bitch a couple months ago? She only spent 15 years in prison.

[one-eyed fat man]

59. Think about the rest of the tale

You may recall the Baader-Meinhof posters hanging everywhere. Clusters of GI's looking at the stringy-haired ugly, pock-marked face of Andreas Baader and the drop dead movie star gorgeous looks of Ulrike Meinhof, who had been a TV news reporter, making wise-ass cracks about "warts on his tongue."



Though partially named after her, Meinhof was not, as is often assumed, the co-leader of the gang (Baader, along with his girlfriend Gudrun Ensslin, led the group, with Meinhof, Jan-Carl Raspe, and others comprising a second tier of leadership)

Birgit Hogefeld, was of course, also on the poster, and when Pimental didn't make formation in the morning there were some questions, but no one at his unit made the connection with the bombing. As investigators asked around, his buddies answer, "Oh yeah, he got lucky and picked up by some Nazi Schatzi at the club."

Next question, obviously, "Anyone know who she was?"

Nope, but she did look familiar somehow....

I was on Rhein Main that day getting one of my soldiers a hop back to the States for emergency leave. As luck would have it, I had just taken soldier and his family to the Frankfurt Flughafen in June and was drinking coffee in the USO prior to heading back to Illesheim when (u)that(/u) bomb went off.

http://articles.latimes.com/1985-06-19/news/mn-9194_1_frankfurt-international-airport

On an earlier tour, stationed near Geißen, unit was part of the reaction force when they tried to breach NATO site 4 in January of 1977. The 42nd Field Artillery was a Pershing missile unit. The presence of U.S. nuclear warheads on German soil was classified and officially denied at the time, and the incident received little publicity.

What is interesting is how many of them were millionaire Marxists. From wealthy families wasting their parents' college money pretending they were oppressed proletariats. And how tied in they were with the Red Brigades, the IRA, the PLO, the Czechoslovak StB, and the East German Stasi.

The financial and logistic support from the East Germany was already generally suspected at the time but confirmed after German reunification in 1990. The Stasi had given several members shelter and new identities.

Those were some lively times.

[DWC]

27. Solid defense

He was situationally aware but unable to avoid so he took the next logical step which was a pro-active self-defense strategy to stop the violent criminal.

Semper Fi,

[iverglas]

29. "unable to avoid"???

In what universe?

[friendly_iconoclast]

39. The First Principle again, eh?

"The person with a gun was wrong, unless and until proven otherwise beyond a reasonable doubt."

[iverglas]

42. the blatant falsehood again

I have no idea what kind of twisted mind gets pleasure from this behaviour. I'm sure I would never be able to fathom its workings in a month of Sundays.

Your allegation doesn't even have a baby toe to stand on in my posts on which you purport to be commenting.

:puke:

[DWC]

56. Your Happy Face blowing Chucks

is exceptionally appropriate.

Thanks for this graphic representation of you "posting" and the value of those posts.

This proves you actually do know what you are doing!

Semper Fi,

[ileus]

31. bad news is there's still one out there who knows where he lives.

Hope he's more careful in the future...

[DWC]

57. Are you talking about the intended victim

or the other Bad Guy that was lucky enough to get away?

Semper Fi,