Four handguns could have changed the world on 9/11

[ileus]

http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-detroit/four-handguns-could-have-changed-the-world-on-9-11



On September 11, 2001, terrorists armed with box cutters flew four hijacked airliners into the World Trade Center, the Pentagon, and a field in Pennsylvania.

As the 10th Anniversary of 9/11 approaches we are still feeling the repercussions of that day. The wars in Afghanistan and Iraq have cost us dearly in “blood and treasure.” On the home front the Patriot Act, “enhanced” TSA screenings, and the “no fly list,” show how we’ve given up many of our liberties for the false promise of security

The tragedy is it didn’t have to be this way. Four handguns, and the will to use to use them, could have kept us from this path.



Continue reading on Examiner.com Four handguns could have changed the world on 9/11 - Detroit gun rights | Examiner.com http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-detroit/four-handguns-could-have-changed-the-world-on-9-11#ixzz1XfXJSf8J

[msongs]

1. don't need guns to overwhelm a person with a.....boxcutter nt

[saras]

3. Woo hoo!

On the other hand, the Second Amendment doesn't guarantee the right to intelligence and courage.

[oneshooter]

6. How about 3-4 people with boxcutters? n/t

3-4 people who are willing to die for their cause.

[RSillsbee]

18. Much as it pains me to say it.

Msongs is 100% correct

[PavePusher]

20. If you only consider one person with a boxcutter.

As mentioned, what about 3-4 such armed people?

[RSillsbee]

26. what about 3-4 such armed people?

Claymore?

bottom line, if you can legally own it you should be able to legally carry it, anywhere.

That said I'm not sure a gun would have made that much difference after the pilots were dead

[PavePusher]

31. Well, perhaps the terrorists would not have been allowed to steer aircraft into buildings.

Very few things are certain, but one thing is: the passengers would have had one more option available for them to try.

[rl6214]

40. Not much difference unless the pilots were the ones armed

try getting into a cockpit with an armed pilot.

[AtheistCrusader]

81. I have zero hours of actual flight time.

I guarantee I can work the radios, and land a 757.

Quite a lot of people can.

[Francis Marion]

59. nor a fire extinguisher to end a fire...

but having the right tool in hand for the job makes the work so much easier.

In order to defend one's self- and fellow passengers- how very sporting to needlessly risk having one's jugular sliced open by criminals!

[SteveM]

88. I agree. Hijackings have moved from "compliance" to attack on site/sight. nt

[MineralMan]

2. In whose hands?

Normally, I don't know anyone on a plane except my wife. I don't want a bunch of armed strangers on any plane I'm on. Sorry.

[jmg257]

7. They are talking armed flight crew...pilots.

But the big 'lesson' in the article was not just giving in to the demands of criminals...as it is no (longer a) guarantee they will just go on their way.

[MineralMan]

10. Who are "they?" I see one poster making an unadorned statement.

I don't read minds. I read posts. If it's not in the post, I don't see it. My comment is based on what was written, not what was assumed. I do not want random passengers carrying handguns on any plane I'm on. I've seen too many morons carrying, and I have no way of knowing whether the guy sitting near me is a moron or not.

[jmg257]

11. Sorry...they being the Detroit Gun Examiner linked to in the OP. Nt

[PavePusher]

22. And you extend that philosophy to the rest of your life, yes?

If not, what makes planes a special case?

Before you answer, please bear in mind that I have 20+ years of military aviation maintenance experience.

[demwing]

46. There are four things that might happen

...if a person were to fire a gun on an airplane:

The bullet simply goes through the aluminum skin of the plane and punches a small hole as it exits.
The bullet hits a window and blows it out.
The bullet hits wiring hidden in the walls or the floor.
The bullet hits a fuel tank.

If the bullet simply punctures the skin of an airplane, then it's no big deal. The cabin of the airplane is pressurized and the hole creates a small leak, but the pressurization system will compensate for it. A single hole, or even a few holes like this, will have no effect.

If the bullet blows out a window, that's a problem. When the window blows, the plane will depressurize over the course of several seconds. Since all of the air in the cockpit is rushing toward the missing window, a lot of debris will be heading in that direction with it. If the person sitting next to the window is not strapped in, then it's possible that he or she will get sucked out -- another good reason to wear your safety belt at all times!

In the meantime, the loss of cabin pressurization creates a problem for everyone on the plane. A commercial airliner flying at 30,000 feet is flying slightly higher than the peak of Mt. Everest. The air at this altitude is so thin that a person will become incoherent in a matter of a minute or so without supplemental oxygen. That's why the oxygen masks will drop from the panel in the ceiling. If you're in this situation, putting the mask on quickly, while you're still thinking clearly, is important.

If the bullet hits wiring (or worse, if the bullet hits something important like the instrument panel in the cockpit), it could cause problems that range from trivial (in-flight entertainment stops working) to severe. The damage depends on what gets hits and how important it is.

Finally, there's the problem of the fuel tanks. Commercial jets store a lot of their fuel in the wings, but there are also tanks in the fuselage on many planes. For example, a 747 stores thousands of gallons of fuel in the fuselage. If a bullet were to puncture a tank, it would at least cause a leak and would have some potential to cause an explosion.

From this discussion, you can see that, in general, it's not a good idea to be shooting guns on airplanes! But if you have to do it, try not to hit anything important.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/innovation/science-questions/gun-on-plane.htm

[PavePusher]

65. Sorry, but your assumptions are mostly incorrect.

For the record, I have 20+ years of military aviation maintenance experience.

1. Correct, and poses little if any problem.

2. Again, little if any problem, unless someone has their head resting against the window, in which case their bigger problem is the bullet that passed through their head on the way to the window. Aircraft have, at minimum, several square feet of venting, more on larger planes. Their air handling systems are designed to deal with this, plus a healthy safety factor. Generally it would take several windows or square feet of hole to begin creating a problem. If a loss of pressure occurs, the oxygen masks deploy and the plane descends to a safer altitude for breathing. It will not tumble violently out of control like in bad fictional movies and books.

3. Most of a plane is empty space and sheetmetal. Your chance of hitting anything vital is incredibly low, and civilian aircraft have a lot of redundancy. Unless you are very knowledgable about the type/model of plane you are on, you've got a better chance of winning the lottery. Knocking out the instruments has little effect on the plane itself, other than not having a lot of numbers available to the pilot. Not at all a game-ender. Again, contrary to bad movies and books.

4. A leak could be a problem, but modern fuel tanks are generally self-sealing for holes that small, and planes are required to carry a safety margin of fuel for this very reason (leaks). Explosion? heck, you can't get jet fuel to burn if you drop a lit match in a puddle of it. It has to well vaporized through a heat source or physical action, such as the tank being torn apart at high speed in a crash and the contained fuel becomeing a fine spray. Again, contrary to the fiction trope.

There really is little danger in having guns on planes. At the minimum, the crew should be armed, and then allow the airline to set the rules on passengers... with the requirement that there must be at least one armed person (Citizen or hired guard) per some number of passengers.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncontrolled_decompression

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabin_pressurization

http://www.flightlearnings.com/pressurized-aircraft-part-one/798/

[demwing]

70. Appreciate your response

but as the link in the text should have revealed, these were not my assumptions, just information I pulled from a website.

But admit it, you just like guns on planes, dontcha? :)

[PavePusher]

72. I like planes.

I like guns.

I don't like being a disarmed victim by government decree, with little in the way of provided security to compensate for the restrictions posed upon the lawful.

I see little actual danger of lawfully armed citizens on planes.

And I've seen LOTS of armed people on a variety of aircraft without it being a problem.

So, yeah, I suppose so. :evilgrin:

[PavePusher]

75. And, oops, my apology, I didn't actually see/use the link you provided, my bad.

Sad that such bad/incorrect info is posted at a site that intends to be perceived as a resource for science.

[tularetom]

4. Four handguns might have prevented some or all of the 9/11 attacks

but that wouldn't have changed the world. Cheney was already making plans to start a war in Iraq in order to get his hands on their oil. And once he started, dissent would not have been tolerated. Many of the abuses of the Cheney/Bush years would have taken place anyway.

But if four handguns would have prevented the media bombardment of hokey oversentimetalized 9/11 programming that we've witnessed this weekend, I say bring it on.

[jpak]

5. Air Marshals not cowboys

yup

[PavePusher]

23. There's never been an Air Marshal around when I need help.

So I've sometimes had to revert to my "cowboy" ways.

Odd that you weren't available to help out either....

yup

[jpak]

45. You fought hijackers with your gun on a commercial airliner?

you're my hero

:rofl:

[PavePusher]

54. Not a claim I made. You hearing voices? n/t

[Tejas]

47. Feel free to post your vomit in General Discussion, report back here.

That is, if GD doesn't humiliate you enough to resign from the DU. Concience and heart for the surviving families of 9/11, ever have one?

[iverglas]

50. you seem to have replied to the wrong post

I'd say the author of the opening post is the one deserving of your opprobrium, rather than the poster you apparently picked at random, or just out of some animus having nothing to do with anything here.

[Kennah]

84. Air Marshals are a lot like baby eagles

I'm sure they exist, but I don't expect I'll ever see one even if I climbed into their nest.

[Indydem]

8. Knowledge

If the passengers of the first three planes had known the evil, twisted intent of their hijackers, they too would have fought the terrorists.

Unfortunately, up until that point, hijackers simply took the planes back to an airport, held the people hostage, and got their demands met.

It was alien to the passengers of those planes that they would be riders on a guided missile.

Once the passengers of flight 93 knew what the intent was, they ended the opportunity.

I have said, and will continue to say, that all the extra money and security wasted on airport security since 9/11 is a joke. No American airplane passengers will ever permit another hijacking. Ever. They will attack, subdue, and/or kill anyone who attempts to hijack a plane for the next 50 years.

[exboyfil]

17. Agree and keeping the door to the cockpit closed

and not opening it for any reason is another prudent step. I would frankly want the pilot to stay at the controls and land the plane ASAP if something happens instead of grabbing his/her gun and playing Dirty Harry.

[Deep13]

9. Ohfor gods' sake.

Really? That's the take-away from all of this.

[PavePusher]

33. And yours is...? n/t

[Deep13]

36. ...based in reality. nt

[PavePusher]

37. Perhaps you could provide some evidence of that...

you know, like actual proposals and supporting facts.

[RC]

12. Yep. Guns are the answer to absolutely everything.

if Gabrielle Giffords had had a gun, she could have taken out her assailant first. Makes as much sense.
If John Lennon was CC, he'd still be alive.
If, if, if...

[PavePusher]

24. Surely you can cite where someone makes that claim? n/t

[ThatPoetGuy]

28. +1000.

The arguments of the gun proliferators grow more sick and twisted every day.

Hey, any gun lovers going to show some decency and condemn this 9/11 exploitation porn that would make Rudy Giuliani blush?

Silly of me to ask, really.

[PavePusher]

52. Making shit up now? What a surprise.... n/t

[iverglas]

73. "Hey, any gun lovers going to show some decency"

Yes, see my post 50.

[gejohnston]

13. using what ammo?

and how good are these four guys? I mean some guy with a .357 with Elmer Keith semi wadcutters could over penetrate or blow a hole in the plane body if he misses.
Glaser safety slugs or light weight hollow points in the hands of someone who is really well trained among the passengers would be better.

[ileus]

16. DRT :)

[PavePusher]

25. Bullet holes in the skin are not a severe problem.

20+ years of military aviation maintenance experience here.

If you were to hit a vital control/propulsion component, maybe. Bear in mind that commercial civilian planes have a lot of redundancy, and a very high ratio of empty space to vital space. Unless you are an expert on the model of plane you are in, and specifically targeting those vital spots, you have a better chance of winning the lottery.

[gejohnston]

34. Spent most of my time

in VI, Combat Camera, and wing staff, I was thinking of cabin depressurization. Never saw it first hand, and not being flightline, I only have the movies to go by.

[PavePusher]

35. No offense intended, but those movie scenes are pure and utter bullshit fiction.

Any pressurized aircraft already has several square feet (varying by size of acft, of course) of venting on it, and air-handling capacity to deal with much more. You'd need several full belts of .50 cal machinegun ammo to create enough hole(s) to be an issue on any given airliner. You could take out many windows before having a significant reduction in cabin pressure, and decompression of the cabin will not send the aircraft wildly out-of-control.

It's a complete and utter non-issue.

[rl6214]

41. A bullet hole in the side of a plane won't bring it down

It dosen't blow out like they show in the movies.

[Speck Tater]

14. If passengers had been carrying guns then it's a sure bet the terrorists would have had them too.

And I'm sure the terrorists would have had the will to use them, probably a lot quicker than the citizens.

I don't understand the mind set that believes that armed shoot outs in the style of the O.K. Corral would make this a better world. Is the answer to all of life's problems really as simple as "shoot the bastard"?

[PavePusher]

27. Do you seriously believe...

that "armed shoot outs in the style of the O.K. Corral" could possibly have made things worse on that day?

If so, please explain how.

[Speck Tater]

63. Scenario: Terrorists promptly shoot resisters and crash the plane into the White House.

Yes, it could have been worse if the terrorists had had the ability to kill the resisters from a distance without having to engage in hand to hand combat. For one thing, the terrorists would have already had their guns drawn when they made their move and anyone trying to reach for a gun would have been instantly shot. Having had both sides armed could very well have made the situation worse than it was by allowing them to complete their attack on the White House.

I know gun people take comfort in their John Wayne fantasies where the quick-draw good guy always gets the bad guy in the end, but that's not how it works in the real world.

[PavePusher]

66. No-one said a firearm was a guarantee.

Simply another possible option. Options are good.

[PavePusher]

67. Self-delete, replied in wrong spot. n/t

[PavePusher]

69. And a plane smashing into the White House strikes me as better than the Twin Towers crashes.

The former may take a few dozen or a hundred people out, all of whom have a clear line of succession in the organization of government. Tragic? Yes, but less so than 3,000-odd lives.

I will also note that the White House has better defenses than the towers. In other words, "more options". Armed Defense. Hmmmm....

[gejohnston]

74. missing part of it

the terrorists did not have guns, they had box cutters.

[Speck Tater]

77. Exactly. But if those who want everyone to be able to carry guns on a plane had their way

the terrorists WOULD have had guns. That's my point. Arming everybody is NOT the answer.

[gejohnston]

80. I doubt it

because I doubt they would plan for something that unusual. Several countries have armed sky marshall The odds of a civilian travelling armed would be slim. We have had sky marshalls a few random flights since the late sixties

[PavePusher]

82. Not neccesarily.

If you required a permit or licence in order to carry, I can't think of a state that will issue to temporary non-citizen visitors/tourists.

[Speck Tater]

83. But would a state respect another country's permit?

Suppose Some king from Elbonia arrives in New York with his personal body guards. Is New York going to tell him his body guards can't be armed?

But more importantly, is there anything I could say that would change your mind on the subject? I don't honestly think there is. That being the case why in heavens name an I wasting time in a debate that is rigged against me right from the start? Or for that matter, is there anything you could say that would cause me to change my mind? Not likely, so why on earth are you wasting your time in a debate that's rigged against you right from the start? I'm sure we both have better things to do than to waste our time and each other's time on a hopeless quest to change the unchangeable.

[PavePusher]

85. Bring some convincing facts and evidence into the debate...

and you could change my mind. But unsupportable assumptions and feelings won't do the job.

[oneshooter]

86. Federal law takes care of it.

"Suppose Some king from Elbonia arrives in New York with his personal body guards. Is New York going to tell him his body guards can't be armed?"

Personal security personell are not concidered to be "Diplomatic Agents" and are not permitted to carry arms outside of the embassy grounds. There was a big todo about this a number of years ago.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[gejohnston]

89. planes cross state lines,

Does the FAA tell the King or PM of anywhere that his people be unarmed? Would a head of state hijack a plane? Me, I am agnostic on the idea. At the very least, the planes should have re-enforced doors like every other country. More sky marshalls at the very least.

[iverglas]

51. that's the dirty little secret, isn't it?

If I'd been carrying a gun the day I was abducted, I am 100% sure that the person who abducted me would have been too.

Fortunately it was Canada in the 1970s. Neither of us was carrying a gun, and both of us survived, and he went to prison.

He'd had a similar plan thwarted the day before by three teenaged girls with a hairbrush.

Life without guns. Life.

[GreenStormCloud]

15. Pilots used to be armed back when planes carried mail. N/T

[one-eyed fat man]

64. Hijacking foiled on the ground,

http://www.chron.com/CDA/archives/archive.mpl/2001_3341305/hero-in-the-cockpit-pistol-served-pilot-well-in-54.html

July 6, 1954, when a strapping teen-ager armed with a pistol commandeered an American Airlines DC-6 at the Cleveland Airport, only to be shot and fatally wounded by the captain before the airplane left the ground. The shooting ended the life of Raymond Kuchenmeister, 15. It made a reluctant hero of the late Capt. William "Bill" Bonnell of Fort Worth...

Bill Bonnell joined American Airlines in 1936 and that airline, like others, transported U.S. mail.

"Back in those days, the pilot or co-pilot had to hand-carry the mail from the plane to the terminal," recalled George Patten, 85, a retired American pilot and friend of Bonnell's. "Postal regulations required that you be armed. We all had to have guns, and American had us buy little .380s."

...Finally, flight engineer Bob Young told Kuchenmeister they would take off but that it was necessary to throw a switch behind Kuchenmeister before the plane could taxi. As Kuchenmeister turned to look for the switch, Bonnell reached into his flight bag with his left hand, removed the pistol, swung around to his right and shot Kuchenmeister. The wounded hijacker then attempted to shoot Bonnell, but his pistol misfired and Bonnell shot him again.

"I shot him in the hip," Bonnell later recalled. "He sagged a bit. I let him have it again, a little higher.

"I had a maniac on my plane. We had women and children. What the hell could a guy do?"

Some of us remember when pilots were routinely armed and expected to be the "good guys" able to defend against the "bad guys."

[slackmaster]

19. Refusal to capitulate to the demands of airplane hijackers would have done almost as well

Now wannabe hijackers know they'd be torn limb from limb by the passengers.

[Kolesar]

21. Osama Bin Laden waited until the incompetent Bush-Cheney-Rummy-Rice gov't was in place

then attacked
If dumbshit Americans had not voted for bush, 9/11 would not have happened.

[gejohnston]

30. Bush was installed, not elected

Gore won the popular vote, and once all of the ballots were counted in Florida, Gore won here too. If the recount were not stopped, Gore would have carried Florida.

[Kolesar]

42. Which takes nothing away from my argument, gejohnson...eom

[gejohnston]

48. true, OBL waited for waited for idiot son

that is very true. If that is your argument, then we agree.

[rl6214]

55. How was it that plan was well into effect well before idiot son

was put into office? Well before idiot son even thought of running for office?

[jmg257]

56. Hmmm...2 posts defending Bush et. al. - u at the right forum? Nt

[oneshooter]

57. No defence other than getting the time line correct. n/t

[jmg257]

58. Now I'm really confused...are u replying for rl6214' or guessing what his/her

Intention was?

[gejohnston]

76. no need to guess unless

you know a Bush supporter that calls him idiot son. He does have a point of the timeline, giving OBL's planning and getting these guys trained.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

91. A bit off topic here but...

...I think it's been about 100 years since there was an administration that the founders would not have branded as Brigandage.

;)

[rl6214]

43. That's just utter bullshit

How would the security be any different if Gore had been in the white house?

[hack89]

62. What changed in US airline security after he took office?

what changed in the US military, for the matter, in the short time after he took office?

You can't try pin this one on Bush unless you are Truther.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

29. So would four locked and fortified doors.

People in this forum get to be more like Archie Bunker every day:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-BSuOAGoC4

[PavePusher]

32. Nothing wrong with belt AND suspenders.

Especially when the stakes are so high...

[DWC]

38. History of hijacked aircraft

caused the passengers and crews of the first 3 planes to expect to be held as hostages for some political statement. They acted accordingly.

When passengers on Flight 93 found the real intent of the hostiles, they responded very differently; attacked the Bad Guys and gave up their lives in defense of others. I truly believe the passengers and crews of the first 3 hijacked planes would have been the same had they known the intent of the hijackers.

I honestly believe using a commercial passenger aircraft as a flying bomb will never work again. After 9/11 passengers and crews will aggressively and violently resist any hijacker(s) under any circumstances without any concern for their personal safety.

Semper Fi,

[Hoyt]

39. You and Reed sitting around this weekend dreaming of how you can/couldbe a cowboy with your guns?

That is ridiculous and steps have been taken in the interim to make airplanes safer in these situations (some steps a little harsh).

Besides now that passengers know that hijackers are not likely to take a airplane back to the airport and sit on the runway -- as one poster put it above -- a couple of guys with box cutters aren't likely to make it into a cockpit.

More irrational thought from folks who are walking around on streets with a gun or two strapped to their bodies.

[rl6214]

44. Still waiting for a picture

of a cowby on the streets witha gun or two strapped to their bodies.

figured out what a red dot scope is yet hoyt?

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

49. I feel that if guns were allowed on aircraft... the terrorists surely would have been armed too.

[PavePusher]

53. So what? Almost any chance at a different outcome would be better than what actually occured.

I can not think of any outcome that could have been worse than history.

[MyrnaLoy]

60. you're right!!!

4 guns would have made it much easier to hijack airplanes. Ya know this post is one that really should be shared with the world, hopefully someone in the media will see it and put it on TV.

[one-eyed fat man]

61. Anyone remember Robert Denisco ?

http://search.newspaperarchive.com/API/Search/Dataapi.aspx?search=IMAGEID:18258905&returns=PDF

The only airline hijacker ever shot on an U.S. airliner, was on September 15, 1970 on board a TWA, Boeing 707 jet. The flight left Chicago for San Francisco, but gunman Don Irwin, 27, seized the plane just after an L.A. stopover. Irwin threatened flight attendants in the aft galley with his gun demanding the plane head to North Korea.

This particular plane was in no way equipped or even able to make such a journey. This hijacker was not quite as clever as he thought.

The pilot J.K. Gilman was informed of the hijacking and was aware that Robert Denisco, a Brinks guard was sitting in First Class. Capt. Gilman quickly used the telephone to ask a First Class fight attendant to tell what was going on and to, “tell him I said to go back and shoot that Bastard!”

"Robert DeNisco remembers it as the day he foiled a hijacking, saved a plane full of people and lived to tell President Nixon all about it."

Back in the day, those who were legally armed, reported such information to the airplane's captain. If you were transporting guns, you boarded first, and at the captain's discretion, surrendered them to the flight engineer. While transporting US mail under US Post Office rules, flight crews were required to be armed and either the pilot ot copilot had to personally hand carry the mail on and off the aircraft. That changed when it became the Postal SERVICE and was disarmed. Prior to 1992 when the Federal Regulations were amended flight crews were armed at the carrier's discretion.

[ileus]

68. Flight attendents with pepper blasters could have done the same thing.

[iverglas]

71. hell, a fire extinguisher probably would have worked

Either as a blaster or as a blunt object.

As has been said here, the issue was never the absence of weapons, it was the absence of realization of what was happening, for which no one was to blame.

[We_Have_A_Problem]

78. Highly doubtful.

Pepper spray, as has been addressed in other topics, does not always work, and in fact, usually does not.

[jmg257]

79. Woo - that is some nasty stuff.

We were doing a late-night stake out in a local car lot, and it was evident that a couple officers fell asleep when it was time to pack it in. I snuck up on the van they were in, sprayed the tiniest of spritz in there, and moments later they came out hacking and wheezing pretty good. Funny stuff!

In a closed-in place like an airplane, I think a few bursts would have everyone gagging soon enough.

[SteveM]

87. technical question for anyone: When checking-in a firearm, are you charged extra?nt

[ManiacJoe]

90. No. It is either inside your existing luggage or adding to your luggage count.

Any extra fee it purely by count, not by content.

[SteveM]

92. Thanks. I wish SW Airlines flew into Gainesville, FL! nt

[Kennah]

93. They do seem to make up their own rules from airport to the next about ammo

At some, ammo in magazines is perfectly fine. At others, ammo has to be either in the original carton, or a hard plastic ammo storage box. A lot of the original cartons are cardboard and paper, while magazines are usually hard plastic or metal.