what proof that Death is a penalty?????

[sam sarrha]

I know of NO proof that death is actually any sort of punishment at all?? many of us that have had after death experiences and came back... were really unhappy about returning, i know i was!!. the death penalty is unconstitutional because it is 'unusual', there is no proof it is punishment, no one ever came back and made a deposition reguarding the degree to which it was punishing. since all statistics show that the death penalty in not a deturant to any crime.. that makes it even more unusual.. what i find really disturbing are the politicians promising to kill prisoners in custidy if they are elected,.. this amounts to offering a Blood Sacrafice to the electorate for their votes... the death penalty is nothing more than old testiment law, a violation of church and state.

[FlashHarry]

1. Er, I'd say it's a helluva penalty.

To quote Sinatra, "you gotta love livin', baby, because dyin' is a pain in the ass!"

Listen, the death penalty is nothing more than Old-Testament revenge. Any irreversible punishment is by definition immoral and unconstitutional--especially since we are judged by humans, who are inherently fallible.

[glarius]

2. All I know is I'm glad my country (Canada) is not killing people in my

name....I think the USA is about the only western democracy that still has the death penalty...

[Jackpine Radical]

4. Many US jurisdictions don't have the death penalty.

My state of Wisconsin has never executed anyone in entire its history as a state, beginning in 1848. I do think one person was hanged pre-1848, when we were a territory.

[glarius]

7. Didn't mean to sound preachy or anything.

I was just commenting on the death penalty...It always strikes me as really weird that the religious zealots who are always quoting the bible and saying they are close to Jesus, are almost always FOR the death penalty....I believe if Jesus were here on earth now, he would be against most of what they are for....IMO

[sam sarrha]

8. killing for Jesus..

the anti abortion demonstrators major reason for being against abortion is that it is taking a life created by god, it is MURDER... but wait 16 years and they are thumping the bible and demanding an eye for an eye.... there's only problem with that.. pretty soon everybody is blind.

[Jackpine Radical]

3. Sam, I don't mean to hijack your thread like this,

but I'm interested in your NDE, having had a couple of experiences myself.

Your private message feature is turned off.

[brokensymmetry]

5. At the risk of abetting the hijacking -

I, too, would like to know more about your NDE.

[sam sarrha]

9. NDE

it was a dark and stormy nite... i had ridden my Bianche Team Issue out to my friends house in the country for a gathering of friends... there were severe thunder storms and it was late.. they told me to stay in the living room on a couch for the nite.. it was unusually low to floor but comfortable... about 3:30am i heard a doors rusty hinge creaking as the heavy door hesitantly opened... a shaply, lithe figure sensously glided like smoke across the darkened room....i thought, "i'm gona get lucky!" ...it was Hellen, a gosamer apparition in the inky darkness of a moonless stormy night.. she stopped and slowly reached out and touched.....the thermostat, and turned up the heat....turned and glided back to her room and shut the door, alone. i thought that strange..the heater was in the living room floor, no central heat, and she shut her door. i didnt think about that again,...untill,..I awoke suddenly in a blinding dizzy fit of nausia, i knew that i wasnt going to make it to the bath room so i turned to vomit on the floor, thinking it would be easier to clean up than the couch. but, only my head turned and fell against the cusion of the couch. i was really concerned about the mess i was going to have to clean up if didnt get up... then it dawned on me ....i was paralized!! i couldnt get up.. i after a brief wave of panic i stopped to acess my situation, i was paralized and couldnt even call for help...Hmmm? why couldnt i call for help? well for one thing i wasnt BREATHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! it came to me like a bat to the head. we had discussed having headaches earlier.. someone had set the mica top on the heater ajar to increase the heat output..and the monoxide!! "they say you always wake up 4 minutes before you die and cant move" came roaring back... a Blissful wave of calm washed over me, "well, it took 2 minutes to figure this out, so in 2 more minutes i wont have another care in this world...." it was like i was shot out of a cannon and quickly excellerated to light speed down a tunnel..i was really into the grove of the bliss and ...a voice like a bell..that i was to hear again 10 years later, said, "NO, not now", i was definately not happy about comming back!! it was like being bitch slapped out of a wet dream about Hellen. comming back was harsh, but i was able to arch my neck back.. and felt a cold draft from a window up in the good air, it was falling down gently onto my forehead. it took every milligram of will and energy to force the first feable breath, but i felt it like hot lava flow down my arms and legs, well i survived to wake up the house and express my displeasure and to be here today and yesterday. it was a real lesson... Death is not to fear, being a Buddhist as i get older and experience more daily pain and discomfort as this body wears out.. i look foward to one aspect of rebirth..getting a new body at least, this one has served me well, but now some of the bearings are a bit worn.

[avtho]

6. All I know is

Faced with the prospect of life w/o parole in the hellhole of most prisons or the needle I would choose the needle.

Had my dog put down, easiest death I ever witnessed.

[sasquatch]

10. Me too

I was pissed when I came backx(
but it helped me become a liberal later on

[jody]

11. Sasqatch are you a member of IANDS?

International Association for Near-Death Studies

I've subscribed to their journal for a number of years.

The most intriguing NDE is the patient in the operating room and the red slipper on the roof. Has that been refuted?

[DrGonzoLives]

12. Penalty? Yes.

What it's not is a deterrant. It is, however, sufficiently barbaric to convince people that it is "just" and provides "closure" for the victims.

[slackmaster]

13. In California it's not a CREDIBLE penalty

Since the DP was reinstated here back in the late '70s almost 700 convicts have been placed on Death Row. Only about seven have been executed; more have died of natural causes (heart disease, cancer, AIDS complications, etc.) There is no practical difference between a death sentence and life without parole here.

[sam sarrha]

14. conditions on death row is itself is a crime against humanity ..

the conditions in death row are worthy of 'crimes against humanity' charges from the UN. the usa now has more people in jail percapita than any other country. last i heard prisons were the fastest growing industry in the usa. when ronnie Raygun began as president, california quit teaching fonics, and as a result quit teaching children to read, do math etc. dropout rates were almost 45% in high school. of those that graduated only 2 of 7 were at a high school level, of the remaining 5, 3 could not read or write good enough to fill out a job application. is there any wonder so many people are in jail with an economy where Walmart is the USA's largest employer, and so many victoms of a failed momopoly public education system?, the Texas right wingers cooked the statistics for the state school system. previously grand sucesses are now actually miserably failures, the 'liberal dominated media' has apparently covered this up.... do we as a country "with justice and Liberty for all" owe the disenfranchised we have produced and failed, anything....?

[Muddleoftheroad]

15. It works

No one given the death penalty has ever killed again.

Criminals -- especially murderers -- have a high rate of recidivsim. That means once they kill, they are likely to do so again in prison or outside. Executing them eliminates that threat and provides safety for prisoners, staff, guards, visitors and the world outside if they can manage to escape.

[DrGonzoLives]

16. Hmmm

I don't suppose that those recidivism rates could have anything to do with an Old Testament prison system whose guiding principle is punishment, not rehabilitation, could it? Nah, couldn't be. Let's just keep letting the state murder people.

[pnb]

17. You're right...that's not the reason.

Some things don't rehabilitate no matter what you do.

[Muddleoftheroad]

18. Not murder

Murder is the killing of innocents. However, when you commit that act and pose an ongoing threat to a society, society needs to protect itself.

Frankly, the problem is not the death penalty, the problem is we don't use it enough. Take a look around and I dare you to disagree.

[Just_Looking]

19. I agree

Frankly, the problem is not the death penalty, the problem is we don't use it enough. Take a look around and I dare you to disagree.

I don't disagree with that statement at all.

[DrGonzoLives]

22. Lovely

Hey, let's not try to cure the root causes of crime - let's just keep lining up people to be murdered by the state.

The problem is we don't use it enough. That is really fucking disgusting. Shall we start executing people who rob liquor stores? Steal cars? Maybe cocaine possession should result in death, hmmmmm?

Attitudes like yours, the let's-just-keep-punishing-people garbage, are why violent crime is increasing in this country. So, please, keep your head in the sand.

[Muddleoftheroad]

23. You don't know my attitudes

So don't try and judge me.

I am for restoring the cities, helping the poor and increasing opportunity. But none of that handles dealing with the truly heinous criminal element that infects our society.

People who rape, molest children and murder with abandon don't rehabilitate enough to chance ever letting any of them out of prison. But we do -- all the time.

And guess what? You know where they go? Back to the urban areas, to prey on the poor, the minorities of our society. Sure, they might sneak out and catch suburbanites unaware sometimes, but mostly they continue victimizing those who can't afford to escape.

So unless you want to move into those same urban areas and get victimized on a daily basis, then come up with a better solution.

[happyslug]

21. Recidivism?? By Murders????

Now Recidivism is high among ex-cons with TWO big exceptions, first timers i.e. if it is your first time in jail, you rarely go back for a second time, and second murders.

Let me address first timers firts. People like to cite recidivism rates, but the rates cited are often inflated by removing groups who do NOT go back to prison. For example first time offenders. Even if you count such first time offenders in the rates, the people who do return to prison a second, third and more time inflate the recidivism rates. For example, if one person serves his time and nevers goes back, and than a second person goes back and keeps going back a second, third fourth and fifth time, you have a recidivism rate of 5 out of 6 or 80%. 80% rate GIVEN we are only talking about TWO people, one of who NEVER goes back. Recidivism rate are inflated by these repeat offenders.

Another way to inflate these numbers is the ARD (Accelerated Rehabilitation Disposition) programs used in most states for first time offenders. If a first time offenders opts for ARD, he serves his time and his record is wiped clean. If he fails he serves his time he goes to Jail. This also increases the Recidivism rate, by removing the first time offenders from the numbers thus leaving people who are more likely to go back to prison over and over again. (Pennsylvania Recidivism rate for first timers is high do to most first timers are NOT counted for they opt for ARD instead).

Another technique is NOT to count people who have served time in County Jail or juvenile facilities UNLESS they later go to jail (The vast majority of BOTH groups tend NOT to go back to jail). This is doen by talking about the Recidivism rates of people in PRISON (thus ignoring people in the County Jail UNLESS such people later end up in Prison).

Now I mentioned that the first group of NON-recidivism were frist time convicts, the second group with LOW recidivism rate are MURDERS. The reason for this seems to be based on the aging of the Felon. Statistics tend to show most crimes are done by teenagers or youths in their 20s. Once someone turns about 35 the Recidivism rate drops again. It seems by the time a ex-Felon turns 35 he finally learns that it is NOT good to be in Prison. Such older convicts tend NOT to return (Please note this is the group most likely to be sentenced to life on a three strike you out law, the reason most prison officials oppose such laws).

Murders tend to serve VERY long terms and rarely get out before they turn 40 let alone 35 (We have murders in prison who are in their 70s, and I believe, through I have not checked the numbers, murders who are in their 80s). The chances of ANY of these murders committing another murder is slim and nil. In many cases the Murder was their FIRST crime (Thus the low recidivism rate of first offenders also apply to them). Please Note I am only go by people who were released NOT people still in Jail.

Also do not go by reports you have heard of convicts attacking guards and other convicts, such attacks do occur, but more likely to be done by a non-killer as some who has killed in the past. Most murders are NOT violent people, prison guards tend to be attacked by VIOLENT people, who generally in jail on an assualt or armed robbery charge NOT murder.

Thus your comment that MURDERS do not re-commit their crime because they are in jail is NOT supported by the Studies or statistics. It is a common belief by right-wingers BUT that does not make it true.

[Name removed]

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