Yassin says Hamas will not disarm or accept truce with Israel

[Gimel]

Rebuffing the incoming Palestinian prime minister, the spiritual leader of Hamas said Wednesday that the group will not disarm, agree to a truce or join the new Palestinian government.

Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, along with other Hamas leaders, has been marked for death by Israel. He survived a September 6 air strike, and has only left his home once since then.

Speaking at a mosque, Yassin rebuffed incoming Palestinian Prime Minister Ahmed Qureia, who has complained of the "chaos of weapons" in
the Palestinian areas, proposed a comprehensive truce with Israel and invited Hamas into his government. More

[Gimel]

1. Open door

Looks as though Yassin's stubborn spirituality could leave the door open for another attempt on his head.

[quilp]

14. Perhaps Yassin is one of them aliens?

Scientists from Roswell NM should go to the West bank to investigate the possibility that Palestinians are aliens. There seems no other explanation for their behaviour toward Jews.

The expertise of these scientists in UFO incidents could help investigate the possibility that "Palestinians", who many Likudniks don't believe existed in the first place, are really "Palestaliens" from the planet "Jewpiter". It could be their original mission was to abduct Likudniks and turn them into human beings. They obviously failed to achieve this, which may have caused the "Palestaliens" to malfunction and inexplicably attack Israelis for no reason at all.

The team from Roswell could also look for the flying saucer used to enter the Holy Land. Preliminary design considerations suggest this may have the shape of a huge hemi-sphere that may now have a yellow hue due to the effects of heat when entering Earth's atmosphere. They will probably find it somewhere in the Jerusalem area.

[drdon326]

2. Oh... Is that the future LATE Sheikh Ahmed Yassin ??

Pretty ball-sy for a guy whose days are numbered.

If i were him , i would really try to get some LIFE INSURANCE
about now.

[UserNamesAreFree]

3. What a mess

it seems next to impossible to get anything close to a unified response for the Palestinians with so many groups holding a stick. Very sad for Palestinians really interested in peace...

[DuctapeFatwa]

4. Since those who have agreed to such a truce have been murdered

It is not surprising that Sheik Yassin would decline.

Although since he is about 180 years old, blind, and paralyzed, it is clear why the IDF would consider him a particularly attractive target.

Children and the elderly are something of a specialty with the Sharon gunmen..

[Gimel]

5. He is in his 60's

a paraplegic and with little or no sight. Yet, his directives are followed. Not a stranger to Israeli jails, his powers are well known among his opponents.

Edited for error.

[DuctapeFatwa]

6. He is in his 60's like Tina Turner is 35!

This guy was Moses' roomate in college.

[DuctapeFatwa]

7. Wow, you're right, he was born in 1937

according to palestinehistory.com

[The Magistrate]

8. He Is Also, Mr. Fatwa

As legitimate an object for military operations as Sharon.

The people have Arab Palestine have no hope whatever of seeing the fulfillment of their legitimate aspirations for secure peace and statehood so long as this reactionary reptile wields any degree of armed power.

[DuctapeFatwa]

10. I'm aware that the IOF sees elderly & infirm as "special" targets

And their uncanny ability to "accidentally" shoot small children in the eye from an impressive distance is known the world over.

It is interesting that you consider Sharon a valid target.

In that you are not compliant with US or Israeli policy, which makes no distinction: any resistance or opposition to any action by bush or sharon regime gunmen is terrorism.

[The Magistrate]

11. As You Well Know, Mr. Fatwa

My views are my own, and any attempt to conflate them with either the Republican Party or the Likud Party is a mere twitch of rhetorical reflex, like a headless chicken's dash about the barnyard.

It is only my sincere affection for the people of Arab Palestine, and earnest desire to see their legitimate aspirations for secure peace and statehood realized, that moves me to my occassional comments on how they might well improve their chances for success in these things.

[DuctapeFatwa]

12. I claim no knowledge of your affiliations, or lack thereof

I am only pointing out that your view of sharon as a legitimate target is in conflict with the official policy of both bush and sharon regimes.

My personal preference is for non-violent resolution of conflict.

[The Magistrate]

9. .

.

[Gimel]

20. Premature fossile

Just the opposite of Tina Turner, heh?

[Equinox]

13. LOL...Moses roommate!

:smoke:

[LastDemInIdaho]

15. Yassin has only left his home once since targeted

If so then why does the IDF not send him a taste of his own medicine?

A few kilos of HE through his front door may just make him and his thirst for terror moot.

[MariMayans]

16. net effect..

one dead martyr and a few thousand people dying (literaly) to avenge him.

Of course nothing Israel does is rational anyway, I'm sure the bright boys at Shin Bet have thought of it before you and one day they will get their chance. One thing nice about using violence to solve problems: If it fails there is a damn near endless supply to keep trying with.

[LastDemInIdaho]

17. Of course nothing Israel does is rational anyway

I disagree. What are you comparing their actions to? What nations surrounding Israel have done rational acts in your opinion?

[Equinox]

21. The Arab league calling for normalizations with Israel, for one.

And of course Sharon had to squelch that post haste!

[Muddleoftheroad]

23. When exactly

Do you mean in the bogus Saudi peace proposal?

[MariMayans]

24. yeah, the one that was a "threat"

Don't say "Shalom" as you pass these people in the street, they are quite liable to bust in your face for such a threat. Quite rational behavior.

[MariMayans]

18. the last time a disarmament agreement was made with Sharon

was Sabra and Shatila.

I can see why one might get a bit nervous about the prospect.

[Andromeda]

19. Hamas will not disarm or accept truce with Israel???

I guess a one-state solution is out of the question then.

Those damn Israelis! <sarcasm>

[Violet_Crumble]

22. Where were you when Israel refused a truce???

Oops. I forgot. It's okay for Israel to not be interested in peace...


Violet...

[sushi]

25. How can Hamas disarm

That is all they have. Think about it! If they disarm then Israel will completely takeover, occupy the whole of Palestinian land, or give the Palestinians a 'state' on Israel's terms, and there's nothing the Palestinians can do because they have disarmed.
Does anyone here believe Israel will dismantle the settlements if Hamas disarms?

[The Magistrate]

26. Hamas Does Not Prevent That, Ma'am

Hamas has the rough military effectiveness of a spit-ball against a charging bull. Hamas cannot drive the Israeli forces out of areas they occupy, or prevent Israeli forces entering any center they wish to. They are capable of only sporadic ambush, and of resistance on occassion when Israeli forces come to kill them. Their attacks on Israeli civilians do nothing but ensure the continuance of aggressive Israeli actions that harm the people of Arab Palestine. The people of Arab Palestine would be hugely better off without these deluded fanatics.

[Darranar]

27. Agreed...

It is one of the facts of the world that aggressive and immoral actions used to prevent actions of the same kind do nothing of the sort in the long-term, but, rather, encourage such actions.

[sushi]

28. I agree that Hamas is nothing

compared to the IDF, so why does Israel insist Hamas disarm? In Iraq the fighters didn't give up their weapons when asked to do so. In the US one can own weapons.

Do you think Israel will dismantle the settlements if Hamas disarms?

[Darranar]

29. Hamas...

is a terrorist organization that commits despicable and immoral acts of murder on Israelis. They accomplish nothing whatsoever for the Palestinian cause - in fact, they worsen it.

The excuses given for inexcusable acts by both sides on this forum are very annoying.

[sushi]

30. Nobody likes terrorists

I'm sure everybody wants inexcusable acts by both sides to stop immediately, and I would like to see them at the negotiating table.

Do you think Israel will dismantle the settlements if Hamas disarms?

[Darranar]

32. Eventually, yes...

because like the support for suicide bombings among the Palestinians, the support for the maitenance of such things will disappear.

[sushi]

34. "Eventually" is vague

One can expect the Palestinians to want it in writing!

[Darranar]

35. Eventually...

because elections take time, the realization that terrorism is pretty much over will take time to develop, debunking the right-wing propaganda about how Hamas is dishonest will take time, and the actual removal of the settlers will take time.

Everything takes time, especially something as drastic as this.

[sushi]

37. Isn't it Israel's intention

to expand? Why should Israel dismantle settlements especially when there's no more danger from Hamas? Who is to judge when terrorism is "pretty much over?"

"...and the actual removal of the settlers will take time."

How long, especially when they're determined to come back every time they've been removed!

[Darranar]

38. I'm not sure you understand...

the only reason that the settlements still remain is the security issue. Aggressive, war-mongering fools often get elected when the security of a nation is at stake; hence Sharon. If he was removed, a new government would be far more willing to dismantle the settlements and make peace.

[sushi]

39. What matters is

whether the Palestinians believe that security issue is the ONLY reason for the settlements. Is it or is it not Israel's intention to expand, to make a greater Israel? If it isn't why do people want the Palestinians to move to Jordan, or to be absorbed by other Muslim countries? Isn't their home in Palestine?

Frankly, I find it very hard to believe that if Hamas gave up its arms and bombs, and there is absolutely no danger of suicide bombing or any other criminal acts by Palestinian extremists anymore, that Israel would then dismantle the settlements and the settlers move back to Israel proper.

[Darranar]

40. Is it "Israel's" desire to expand?

NO! The only reason the expansionists remain in power is because of the security issue. If the terrorism stopped, with time Israel would give up the settlements, simply because the political power of those who want to mantain them would collapse.

[sushi]

41. If you were Palestinian

is "If the terrorism stopped, with time Israel would give up the settlements" good enough for you?

[Darranar]

45. Since terrorism accomplishes absolutely nothing for anyone...

then perhaps I would.

[The Magistrate]

31. Hamas Must Be Disarmed, Ma'am

Because its sole purpose in existance is to kill enemy civilians, and so long as it does this in any quantity, the Israeli government will remain in the hands of Sharon and Likud. This is not a debate point in civil liberties and gun ownership: it is a state of war between two peoples that has lasted too damned long already. Put bluntly, Hamas will disarm or its membership will be killed to the last beard, and whether this is done by Israel or the Palestine Authority is immaterial.

Israel certainly ought to remove the settlements. The activities of Hamas have the effect, through maddening and frightening the Israeli people, of maintaining in power in Israel precisely those parties which most devoutly wish for the settlement project to continue. So long as these remain in power, there is no chance whatever the settlement expansion, even, will be halted, let alone that the things will be removed. The settlements are not widely popular among the people of Israel, who resent the cost of their subsidization, and recognize, at least according to recent polling data, that they must be given up if a peace is to be secured.

[sushi]

33. We all know

Hamas will be wiped out if they don't disarm, and Hamas knows it too, but, like the extremists in Iraq, they don't seem to be the kind of people to give up their arms. I'm afraid they plan to take as many people with them as possible. Besides martyrdom is what they seek.

We're in agreement that Israel ought to remove the settlements. My question was do YOU think that Israel will dismantle the settlements if Hamas disarms! What comes first, the chicken or the egg.

If there's a way to convince the Palestinian people that the settlers will leave if Hamas disarms, they might just stop supporting Hamas, although I don't believe Hamas has majority support.
I have seen Israeli settlers saying that they have no intention to leave, and if the IDF forces them away they'll be back the next day!

[The Magistrate]

36. It Is Possible, Ma'am

Attempts at predicting future political developments in a foreign polity can prove embarrassing. But it does seem to me Sharon would be out on his ear if there was a cessation of violence by the various irregular Arab Palestinian forces, and that the governing party that replaced him would probably be willing to dismantle at least most of the settlements. Nothing is going to be given in writing to that effect by the current government, certainly.

People are simply going to have to act without any guarantees, and with every reason to suspect they will be betrayed even if they do the right thing.

[sushi]

42. "...would probably be willing...?"

If you were Palestinian is "the governing party that replaced him would probably be willing to dismantle at least most of the settlements" good enough for you?

I think it's wrong that the world is spending so much time for so long on the conflict of two small populations, with no end in sight, while there are so many other problems to solve.

[The Magistrate]

43. It Is The Best They Will Get, Ma'am

If it is not good enough, they will continue to suffer death and encroachment.

Put bluntly, the options are surrender, or continuation of the mopping-up campaign.

[sushi]

44. It is obvious

that they don't accept it. They might change their minds but I doubt it. Meanwhile Israel suffers too.

Btw, my question was if you were Palestinian is it good enough for you?

[The Magistrate]

46. And My Answer, Ma'am

Is that it does not matter if it is "good enough"; it is the best that is on offer. People are always free to select the worser of the alternatives available as well.

If Palestinian myself, Ma'am, you would not find me within ten thousand miles of that place, nor much concerned with it.

There comes a time when it must be recognized a fight is lost, a dream broken, an effort failed. It is foolish beyond words to persist past it. Anyone who has striven and grown knows this.

[sushi]

47. If I were Palestinian

then, like you, I would stay far away from there. However, there is another kind of people - the ones who stay and fight. The ones who refuse to be bullied, who don't give up and are even prepared to die. You and I find it stupid, but others encourage them.

Was just thinking, if everybody is like you and me there would be far less countries in the world!

[LastDemInIdaho]

48. The truth is that the Palestinian people are not fighting the right enemy

The Palestinian people theat are causing all the problems are the ones blowing up innocent Israelis. The Palestinians should be fighting against the suicide kooks that are destroying all chances of peace.

[sushi]

49. Do you believe

Israel will dismantle the settlements if the Palestinians fight and defeat the suicide kooks and there's no more danger of suicide bombings?

[LastDemInIdaho]

51. Yes I believe Israel will hold up their end of the deal

The Palestinians need to stop targeting innocents Jews now not later.

[Darranar]

52. Yah...

Unfortunately, that isn't going to happen any more than Israel will tear down the wall, remove the settlements, stop bulldozing houses, and withdraw from the West Bank and Gaza - and give the Palestinians their state.

[MariMayans]

53. it's happened before

the result was a settlement expansion.

Whatever you choose to believe reality serves as a check on it and the facts on the ground tell a completely different story.

[Darranar]

55. What period of no suicide bombings are you talking about?

[sushi]

58. Wasn't there a short period recently

when there was no suicide bombing (I think Abu Mazen was still PM) but settlement activity went on? I read in another recent thread that Israel spends $560 million subsidizing settlements.

[Darranar]

62. Progress takes time...

it's a fact of life. Very temporary changes rarely do anything about anything.

[MariMayans]

59. 1967 to present

there was no suicide bomber until after Barach Goldstein massacred a Mosque unloading clip after clip until he was finally brought down.

There have been year long hiatus since then and nothing changed.

[Darranar]

60. Okay...

I guess I should have said terrorist attacks instead of suicide bombings. Those did occur.

And there were some good developements during those years, especially early on. There was the Arab League saying in November 1972 (might be 1974, not sure) that if Israel withdrew from occupied territory in the WB, it would go to the Palestinians and not to Jordan, and of course there was UN Resolution 242.

The whole settlement process, IMO, was designed as a trip-wire against a Palestinian state. Jordan they could handle, but I doubt the GOI desired another state so close to their borders. Once it became clear to the GOI that the land would go to the Palestinians if they withdrew, the GOI tried to ensure that they wouldn't be forced to do so.

[MariMayans]

54. .....

...

[sushi]

56. Like when?

See previous posts by Darranar and Magistrate. Might, maybe..., in time..., all very vague. Words don't mean a thing. I can't blame the Palestinians if they demand a guarantee, can you? Stop suicide bombing/disarm by one side, and dismantle settlements by the other, at the same time.

[Darranar]

57. The thing is, though...

the hypothetical situation you bring up has 0% chance of happening.

The suicide bombings are immoral, and harmful to the Palestinain cause. From both a pragmatic and moral perspective, they are wrong. That's a fact.

[sushi]

64. Isn't it better

to move recent settlers out before they get used to life in the settlements? Isn't it better to help those who have lived a long time in the settlements to establish themselves in Israel proper before they get too old to start new lives?

Or has 'the hypothetical situation I brought up' 0% chance of happening because Israel has actually no intention of ever giving up the settlements? Or maybe they plan to dismantle a few tiny outposts only and intend to keep the large, strategic ones?

I totally agree that suicide bombing is immoral and harmful to the Palestinian cause, and I imagine life must be very stressful in Israel, but settling in other people's land is also wrong.

I don't see why it's impossible to exchange disarming of Hamas for Israel dismantling the settlements at the same time. That is, if both sides are willing!

[Darranar]

65. The hypothetical solution you brought up...

has 0% percent chance of happening because the support to disarm Hamas is lacking among the Palestinians, due to the settlements, the occupation, and the refusal to negotiatate by the Israelis.

The situation seems unsolvable, IMO, until both sides get smart. Since the leadershp and power necessary to either dismantle Hamas (from the Palestinian side) or dismantle the settlements (from the Israeli side) requires real progress on the other side, nothing will ever get accomplished because what needs to happen will require something happening that requires what needs to happen to happen. An endless cycle, at least for now.

[sushi]

73. Yes, it's an endless cycle

It will take outsiders to force them to negotiate, but the most powerful outsider is not even-handed. Hamas knows it, so is it so difficult to understand why they'd rather die than disarm?

I also believe that the expel or kill Arafat policy is intended to cause so much friction that peace negotiations, which would involve giving up settlements, have to be postponed! The longer the better as far as the Israeli leadership is concerned.

[The Magistrate]

66. It Would Indeed Be Best, Ma'am

If these two things were done simultaneously. Indeed, Israel ought to begin dismantling the settlements regardless of what Hamas, et al, do. Doing so would make the destruction of those groups much easier to accomplish, as it would greatly lessen the attachment to them of many Arab Palestinians. Similarly, if attacks against Israeli civilians ceased entirely, it is much more likely a governmeny would come to power in Israel that was willing to break the settlers' lobby. Whichever side moves first in such a direction will gain a powerful political advantage.

[Darranar]

67. Indeed...

but it seems to me that neither side has the inclination to do so. It seems to me that in order for progress to be made on either side, progress must be made by the other side. And that's the key problem with finding a solution to this conflict.

[The Magistrate]

69. The Problem, Sir

Is that both sides have been at war so long, neither can conceive of any measures but the military for gaining their object. Yet even in conventional war, political and economic measures can be a more reliable means of securing the object than military ones, and in a war like this, a guerrilla conflict, they are always more effective than military measures.

[Darranar]

71. Agreed...

but neither side's leadership is willing to use those measures, and they can't be removed or undermined until real progress is made by the other side. That was essentially my point.

[The Magistrate]

72. True, My Friend

"Ought" is drawn down on "is" here, and emerging rather tattered and torn from the experience.

As Vonnegut once said in some other connection: "The winners are at war with the losers, and the fix is in. The prospects of peace are awful."

[MariMayans]

50. Yeah, right..

Israel so gave a fuck about Palestinians in the past. The Great Socialist Leftist Golda Meir said they didn't exist. As a matter of fact the word "Palestinian" was a dirty word in Israeli discourse until Jews started dying at something aproaching parity with the Arabs killed.

[LastDemInIdaho]

61. Yassin and his murderous band of suicide bombers need to disband

The entire civilized world is aginst Yassin and his band of murderers.

There are few people in this world that are rightfully hated more than this Yassin garbage. He can not die soon enough. Hopefully not a single soul here on DU accepts him and his actions.

[Darranar]

63. Hmm...

There are few people in this world that are rightfully hated more than this Yassin garbage.

Bush & Co come to mind, Saddam comes to mind, Milosevic comes to mind, Sharon comes to mind, Kissinger comes to mind... The list is actually rather endless. So many people have more resources and oppurntunities to cause harm than does this Yassin terrorist.

[sushi]

68. Yassin's days are numbered

He knows it and probably welcomes it, but there are other Yassins.
How many people do you want to kill.

I agree Hamas must disarm. Do you agree Israel must leave the settlements?

[MariMayans]

70. want to murder some rabbi's?

I will spare you the quotes because you obviously know so damn much about the West Bank, Gaza and green line Israel. You think the "garbage" needs to be disposed of on the other side of the border?