Israel threatens deadly force to stop protesters

[Scurrilous]

<snip>

"Israel is prepared to use deadly force to stop Palestinian protesters from forcing their way into Israel during a planned rally along the Gaza Strip's frontier on Monday, a senior Israeli defence official said.

Organisers linked to Gaza's Islamist Hamas administration said they would hold a peaceful rally in which they estimated 40,000 to 50,000 women and children would form a "human chain" along the border and call for an end to an Israeli-led blockade.

Hamas blew open Gaza's southern border wall with Egypt last month, allowing thousands of needy Palestinians to surge across.

"I hope that, ultimately, they (Hamas) understand that we are deployed and ready, that this will not be a repeat of what happened in the Philadelphi Corridor (Gaza-Egypt border) a few weeks back," Deputy Israeli Defence Minister Matan Vilnai said.

"We don't plan to fool around in this regard," he told Israel Radio. "We will use measures in the way we deem necessary to prevent people breaking into the state of Israel's territory."

http://africa.reuters.com/world/news/usnL2582849.html

[Behind the Aegis]

1. The cards are on the table.

Hamas knows Israel will not allow what happened in Egypt. Will they tell their "protestors?"

[ProgressiveMuslim]

2. The cards are on the table indeed. nt

[Englander]

3. So you think there'll be another Sharpeville?

1960: Scores die in Sharpeville shoot-out

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/march/21/newsid_2653000/2653405.stm

[oberliner]

7. No, as it turns out

The reality, once again, comes nowhere near the hyperbole.

[Englander]

8. Yeah, like the hyperbole in #1.

My view = exactly what happened is exactly what I thought would happen.
btw you do realise there's large amounts of irony present when someone like yourself talks of
"reality" & "hyperbole"?

[oberliner]

10. Someone like myself?

What do you mean by that?

I see no amount of irony whatever in my remarks. Please elaborate.

[Behind the Aegis]

11. Parts of English speech.

"The cards are on the table." This is known as an idiomatic phrase, or colloquial analogy. It means that all sides know what the other is claiming.

"Hamas knows Israel will not allow what happened in Egypt." This is a statement. It is based in reality per the OP.

"Will they tell their "protesters?"" This is an interrogative statement.

You post to mine was an interrogative statement and an analogy. However, your 'question' was what is known as an informal fallacy." Your 'analogy' was loaded in a way to again tie Israel with South Africa under Apartheid. Even oberliner was incorrect to call your post "hyperbole" because you weren't stating your position, you were just presenting a prediction on what you thought I was was thinking; albeit an incorrect assumption on your part.

[Englander]

44. Oh, that's priceless.

English lessons from the literacy-challenged? Tell me, how long did it take to construct that post,
& what would it look like if there wasn't a spell-checker? How many words would be spelt correctly?
Please, do be honest.

It was clear from your statement that you believed that there would be an attempt to break the
border fence, & that you believed that the israeli forces would not allow that to happen, therefore
you believe that the israeli forces would attempt to stop the assembled crowd in some manner. Here's
a statement by an Israeli ultranationalist mk, could you try to explain where you think he's wrong,
or where you disagree with his statements?

Gazans form human chain along Israeli border in protest at blockade

>snip

Israeli radio and TV stations devoted their morning news coverage to the event, warning of a mass exodus of Gazans.

"It's absolutely clear that among them will be people with explosive charges, there will be those among them who will be ready at any moment to blow up the border fence," an ultra-nationalist MP, Effie Eitam, told Israel Radio, reflecting a widespread sense of alarm.

"Suddenly there will be a big hole in the fence somewhere, there will be explosions, injured soldiers and the mob will stream into our territory. If that happens it will be the end of the state of Israel."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/feb/25/israelandthepalestinians?gusrc=rss&feed=networkfront

[Violet_Crumble]

45. What's with the dit-dits round the word protesters?

Like, you think it was a Rent-A-Crowd? How lame...

[Englander]

4. ANALYSIS: Mass Gaza march puts Hamas in a win-win situation

By Amos Harel, Haaretz Correspondent


Israel's concern about a possible scenario involving Hamas marching masses of civilians to the fence separating the Gaza Strip from the western Negev is not based on a vague hunch. It is founded on intimate knowledge of the intentions of the Islamist organization's Gaza leadership, and it requires thorough and detailed preparations on the part of the Israel Defense Forces.

Over the past few days, Defense Minister Ehud Barak and senior army officers have spent hours deliberating the possible scenarios. Additional troops have been deployed around the Strip, and the units on the ground have been given clear directives not to allow Palestinians to enter Israeli territory under any circumstances.

Officials in the defense establishment believe Hamas views the prospect of marching civilians over the fence as a win-win situation. If some of the thousands of people Hamas brings to the border manage to penetrate Israel despite the IDF troops in the area, then it will have once again broken the ring of economic isolation around Gaza. If the IDF halts the marchers' advance with violent means, killing demonstrators, then Hamas will have demonstrated Israeli brutality toward the masses struggling to carve out a living in Gaza.

But there is an Achilles heel in Hamas' plans to bring down the Gaza wall as it breached the wall separating Gaza from Egypt late last month: Hamas no longer has the element of surprise. Israel is already enforcing sterile buffer zones near the fence, especially in areas near Israeli settlements. Which is to say the IDF shoots anyone who attempts to approach the fence in those areas.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/957776.html

[Vegasaurus]

5. A human chain on the Gaza side of the fence is fine

If they try to break through, like in Egypt, then the IDF will have to prevent them from coming through.

Maybe they should use water, dogs and bullets, to push the Gazans back, just like the Egyptians did last month.

[oberliner]

6. Gaza protest of Israeli siege yields disappointing turnout

A Palestinian attempt to draw international attention to Israel's siege on the Gaza Strip yielded a disappointing turnout Monday, with a few thousand, rather than the expected tens of thousands, forming a human chain of protest.

The protesters, many women and children and many holding Palestinian and Hamas flags, turned out for the start of what organizers said they hoped would be a peaceful protest involving some 50,000 people.

The protesters were to supposed to run the length of the 40 kilometer-long Gaza Strip, from the Rafah border to the Erez crossing.

About 5,000 people, many of them schoolchildren and university students,
formed a human chain outside the town of Beit Hanun, about six kilometers
from the border.

http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/957540.html

[Tom Joad]

9. The threats of the Israeli military seemed to have their intended effect.

[Behind the Aegis]

13. You almost sound disappointed?

[Tom Joad]

26. Of course i am disappointed that Israel threatened deadly force against protesters,

but not surprised.

[Behind the Aegis]

27. Try again.

Israel threatened force against those who would violate its borders. It didn't happen.

[Tom Joad]

30. no use speakin with you.

[Behind the Aegis]

31. The feeling is more than mutual.

[azurnoir]

12. What happened may not be as hyperbolic

as the rhetoric but what comes through is that again and again for at least some in Israel to "feel safe" Palestinians must either be contained behind impenetrable barriers or physically incapacitated, the more this is actuated the more a self fulfilling prophecy it becomes under these conditions peace will never happen, facts the right-wingers depend on

[Behind the Aegis]

14. Disappointed?

Did you want to see what would happen had the Gazans done what they did in Egypt? Do you really believe Israel would have allowed what happened there happen in Israel?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

15. I'm sure Israel would have likely murdered hundreds, if not thousands.

But then again, that's nothing new for the world's longest modern occupier, is it?

[Behind the Aegis]

16. There's the hyperbole everyone was looking for!

Way to go!

[Vegasaurus]

19. Hyperbole rules in the I/P forum! nt

[azurnoir]

20. So now it is hyperbolic

to state that Israel most likely will do what it says it will? Glad you wrote that.

[Behind the Aegis]

21. Israel said it would kill hundreds or even thousands?

No, it said, if need be it would use deadly force. Read.

[azurnoir]

24. An estimated crowd of 40,000 to 50,000

and deadly force = ???

[Behind the Aegis]

28. And where, please show your work, did Israel say they would kill them all?

While you are at it, why don't you show where Israelis, since the first Intifada, where Israel has "taken out" hundreds, much less thousands, of Palestinians in a single operation.

[azurnoir]

34. Hundreds or thousands

equals 40,000 to 50,000, must be that "new math"

[Behind the Aegis]

35. And, what you are peddling, is that the new "truth?"

Israel did not kill or even injure ONE single person during the demonstration. It said it would use deadly force if needed. It was not, and it seems much to the disappointment of some. Now, you care to answer the question as to when Israel has ever killed hundreds to thousands in such a event? You said, and I quote: "So now it is hyperbolic to state that Israel most likely will do what it says it will?" See, those who read and understood the article understood that Israel would use deadly force, if its borders were breached and it were necessary to use such force. What you and another person seem to have read was Israel was planning to "gun down a crowd of women and children" and when this didn't happen, seemed to express that because it has been done before (?), they would have likely have done it again.

[azurnoir]

38. More twist and shout? LOL n/t

[Behind the Aegis]

39. How sad, but not unexpected. n/t

[ProgressiveMuslim]

40. Isn't that the claim you guys were making? (insert 3 Stooges noise here)...

Using best "Mo" voice...

They know better
Cause Israel wouldn't stand for it....

yada yada yada

I'm sure you're right about that. Israel has a long history of putting down any kind of demonstration with violent means.

[Behind the Aegis]

41. Try getting some sleep.

The only ones claiming "hyperbole" weren't the ones on my "side." You were just the first to provide it.

On edit: You do know about the 3 Stooges, don't you?

[Dick Dastardly]

17. Worlds longest modern occupier?

What about the Chinese invasion of Tibet in 1950?

[rockymountaindem]

37. Crickets n/t

[azurnoir]

18. why would women and children from Gaza

want to break into Israel? It was a demonstration, a human chain, not meant to break down the barrier, the threats to gun down a crowd of women and children were Israel's, these things did not happen, I am not the one to be disappointed that no one on either side died.

[Behind the Aegis]

22. You really should read more.

Hamas had said in earlier statements they were hoping the demonstration would lead to a situation similar to Egypt. You also misstate Israel's position, not uncommon from you. Israel said it was prepared to use deadly force should the demonstration turn into something else, i.e. a border breach.

[azurnoir]

25. If you want to add to the op then post a link

as the op read I mis-stated nothing Israel threatened to use deadly force if the crowd tried to break down the barrier.

Once again why would Palestinian women and children try to get into Israel, because the Israeli's would sell them bread?

[Behind the Aegis]

29. Now the truth is starting to rear its head!

Israel threatened deadly force if the crowd tried to break down the barrier. They didn't threaten to shoot women and children because they were forming a human "chain" in Gaza. I still fail to see what your question "why would Palestinian women and children try to get into Israel?" has to do with the price of eggs in China. The "threat" from the Israeli army was based on the "hopes" of Hamas that the demonstration would turn into a situation similar to what happened at the Philadelphi Corridor.

[azurnoir]

33. You are very intentionally twisting my post

but what is new?

[Behind the Aegis]

36. No, I am pointing out your gaping holes in logic.

And, that is nothing new. You misstated Israel's position. You misstate what makes Israelis feel "safe." And you added the red herring of "gunning down women and children." So, now that your "logic" has been shot to hell, you play the victim by accusing me of doing something I haven't done. If I have "twisted" your post, show me how I have done so.

[oberliner]

23. ANALYSIS: In the end blood was shed in Sderot, not Gaza

It should not have come as a surprise that the Qassam rockets struck Sderot several moments after the Palestinian demonstration south of the Erez crossing died out. The small number of protesters the organizers managed to rally did not meet the expectations or the preparations of the Israeli security forces, and certainly not those of the media.

But the lack of a story at Erez quickly changed with the horrifying scenes from Sderot - and with it so did the media's attention: The desperate situation of Gazan children under an economic siege moved to the immediate suffering of Sderot children, after one of them, Yossi Haimov, suffered injuries from Qassam rocket fragments to his shoulder.


http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/958202.html

[Tom Joad]

32. and death and hunger in Gaza, in case anyone has not noticed.

Stop the Siege!

[ProgressiveMuslim]

42. Gazans discuss human chain protest

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/7263142.stm




RAMY ABDU, 29, GAZA CITY
Ramy is a spokesman for the Popular Committee Against the Siege, which organised the human chain in Gaza.


Ramy says the action highlighted humanitarian concerns

Our human chain stretched from Beit Hanoun in the north of Gaza down to Rafa in the south. There was wide participation - thousands of people turned up.

We urge the international community to put more pressure on the Israelis to end the siege of Gaza.

Life here is getting worse. People are suffering and we are asking Israel and the international community not to push us to breaking point.

If the Israelis are really so afraid, why are they pushing us into a worse place? Let the medicine and the food into Gaza.

We want people to take part in our actions and to do it in a civilised, peaceful way. If they stay at home, no-one will see them.

We are an independent committee, we did not organise this with Hamas.

Of course, Hamas would be one of the beneficiaries of the lifting of the siege - and they were among the many people in the chain. We welcomed them and everyone else.

The siege does not target specific people, everyone suffers.

If you jail a prisoner you at least give him food. We are not talking about the politics of it all, just the violation of our basic humanitarian needs.

And if people outside keep silent about it, they are taking part in it too.



SAMEH HABEED, 22, GAZA CITY
I joined the chain for about 15 minutes. I work full time so could not stay longer. It was peaceful and there was no violence.

I got a scholarship to study in Italy last year, but I couldn't leave because the borders were closed

It was very crowded and there were lots of journalists and film crews too.

Groups of children were hurrying with their teachers to head north, to start the chain in Beit Hanoun.

People are very angry about the siege and how it's affecting us.

I saw people from Fatah, from Hamas, from the Popular Front, people forgot their different groups for a time....

[Vegasaurus]

43. The Gazans should peacefully march

by the government offices of their "officials": Hamas, and demand that Hamas stop the rocket fire. If the citizens are concerned about getting food from their enemy, they should demand that Hamas step up its efforts (which are nonexistent at this point) to reign in the militants.

Because Hamas does nothing to stop the violence, and in fact, takes part itself (oops, just its "armed wing"), the citizens continue to suffer. What kind of government plays with the health and welfare of its citizens like that? It's disgraceful.

That would be the most important action the citizens of Gaza could make.